Spitting

August 21, 2000

Hello all,

Just responding to the question of whether spitting is a compulsion or a

tic:

Telling tics, compulsions and acting-out behavior can be difficult when the

particular behavior is directed at someone or is harmful/aggressive, eg

spitting. Tics can resemble rituals and tics and compulsions can co-occur.

Acting out and aggression can occur with both TS and OCD. The main way to

discern whether spitting is a tic, compulsion or acting out is to look

carefully at the CONTEXT in which it occurs.

Tics are usually sudden, quick, involuntary and purposeless movements and

sounds. They also happen more randomly, not in response to a specific

anxiety trigger, and occur in a wide variety of situations. In contrast,

compulsions are always purposeful, deliberate, more elaborate, follow rigid

rules, occur in response to anxiety, and usually occur in specific

situations. Children also appear to be more consciously aware of engaging

in compulsions than tics. For instance, if your child spits every time he

eats or drinks, and not at any other time, it is more likely to be a

compulsion. If it were a tic, it would occur more randomly, and not

necessarily in the same situation from day to day.

One of my young patients with TS and OCD articulated the difference between

the two disorders very well: " My brain makes me want to jump up and down,

but when my eyes blink, they just do that on their own. " He was aware that

the jumping was a more purposeful urge and was a compulsion that felt driven

to perform, whereas the eye blink happened somewhat automatically and was a

tic.

Acting out is usually associated with anger, being thwarted, not getting

wants met, need for revenge, attention-seeking etc. IF your child has been

showing these emotions in these contexts, and the spitting is limited to

these situations, it is more likely to be acting out and should be handled

with limit setting and consequences.

Children with Asperger's Syndrome and other Pervasive Developmental

Disorders may also have stereotypies, which are similar to rituals, except

that they are something the child wants to do and from which she often

derives gratification--this makes sorting it out even more complex.

Hope this is helpful,

Aureen P. Wagner, Ph.D.

Re: I'm the new list advisor/ Pleased to join you

> Hi Aureen:

>

> IT was great to meet you at the OCF conference (and also your beautiful

> daughter!). YOur talk was very informative and I know you will be a

> wonderful addition to our list. It sounds like you are a very busy mom as

> well as a busy child psychologist. keeps us on track with self care

> priorities and you and Dr. Chansky are undoubtedly not exempt from this

too

> <VBG>.

>

> I hope for your sake you are on the digest version :-))

>

> Take care, aloha, Kathy (H)

> kathyh@...

>

> P.S. Can't wait for your parent-oriented book to come out later this

year!

>

> At 01:30 AM 8/8/00 -0000, you wrote:

> >Hello all,

> >Louis Harkins invited me to join your group and to be a list advisor,

> >and I am pleased to accept.

> >

> >Let me tell you a little bit about myself: I am a Clinical Child

> >Psychologist and have been specializing in treating OCD and other

> >anxiety disorders in children, adolescents and families with Behavior

> >Therapy for about 12 years. I got my Ph.D. at the University of

> >Iowa, then my internship and postdoctoral training at Yale University

> >Child Study Center and Brown University Bradley Hospital. I was an

> >Assistant Professor at the University of Rochester School of Medicine

> >until the birth of my daughter almost 3 years ago. I then decided to

> >dedicate my time to being a parent and to a clinical practice,

> >specializing in OCD and anxiety. I have since been blessed with a son

> >who is now 7 months old and busy as a beaver. It is wonderful to be a

> >parent, but I have been humbled by the challenges that come with the

> >territory--being a child psychologist does not appear to earn me any

> >special dispensation!

> >

> >I enjoy my work immensely and have been fortunate to have good

> >outcomes for the kids and families with whom I have worked. As a

> >true behavior therapist, I find this quite rewarding, and keep doing

> >more of it! I recently published UP AND DOWN THE WORRY HILL: A

> >CHILDREN'S BOOK ABOUT OCD AND ITS TREATMENT which evolved directly in

> >response to repeated requests from parents for a book that their

> >children could read and understand. The book describes OCD from a

> >child's perspective. In particular, it focuses on describing

> >Behavior Therapy for OCD in a manner which children can comprehend,

> >and preparing them for treatment.

> >

> >I will be presenting a workshop on Up and Down the Worry Hill and my

> >forthcoming companion parent guide WHAT TO DO WHEN YOUR CHILD HAS

> >OCD: STRATEGIES AND SOLUTIONS at the OCF Conference in Chicago on

> >Saturday August 12 from 11.30 am-12.45 pm, followed by a book signing

> >from 1-2 pm. Hope to meet many of you there---I will be looking out

> >for turtles!

> >

> >Reviews of Up and Down the Worry Hill by experts in OCD (including

> > Jenike, Griest, Claiborn and Fred Penzel) and

> >other information is available at www.Lighthouse-Press.com. Up and

> >Down the Worry Hill is not at the bookstores yet and is only

> >available directly from Lighthouse Press at the website or at

> > (888) 749-8768 (toll free in the USA) at the current time.

> >

> >I look forward to our continued involvement in the future, and to

> >meeting many of you in Chicago (where I will be with husband, 2 kids

> >and much paraphernalia for 1 day).

> >

> >Take care,

> >Aureen

>

> You may subscribe to the OCD-L by emailing listserv@... . In

the body of your message write: subscribe OCD-L your name. The Archives,

Files, and Features List for the may be accessed by

going to , enter your email address and password,

then point and click. Subscription issues, problems, or suggestions may be

addressed to Louis Harkins, list owner, at harkins@... .

>

August 22, 2000

Re: I'm the new list advisor/ Pleased to join

you

>

> > Hi Aureen:

> >

> > IT was great to meet you at the OCF conference (and also your beautiful

> > daughter!). YOur talk was very informative and I know you will be a

> > wonderful addition to our list. It sounds like you are a very busy mom

as

> > well as a busy child psychologist. keeps us on track with self

care

> > priorities and you and Dr. Chansky are undoubtedly not exempt from this

> too

> > <VBG>.

> >

> > I hope for your sake you are on the digest version :-))

> >

> > Take care, aloha, Kathy (H)

> > kathyh@...

> >

> > P.S. Can't wait for your parent-oriented book to come out later this

> year!

> >

> > At 01:30 AM 8/8/00 -0000, you wrote:

> > >Hello all,

> > >Louis Harkins invited me to join your group and to be a list advisor,

> > >and I am pleased to accept.

> > >

> > >Let me tell you a little bit about myself: I am a Clinical Child

> > >Psychologist and have been specializing in treating OCD and other

> > >anxiety disorders in children, adolescents and families with Behavior

> > >Therapy for about 12 years. I got my Ph.D. at the University of

> > >Iowa, then my internship and postdoctoral training at Yale University

> > >Child Study Center and Brown University Bradley Hospital. I was an

> > >Assistant Professor at the University of Rochester School of Medicine

> > >until the birth of my daughter almost 3 years ago. I then decided to

> > >dedicate my time to being a parent and to a clinical practice,

> > >specializing in OCD and anxiety. I have since been blessed with a son

> > >who is now 7 months old and busy as a beaver. It is wonderful to be a

> > >parent, but I have been humbled by the challenges that come with the

> > >territory--being a child psychologist does not appear to earn me any

> > >special dispensation!

> > >

> > >I enjoy my work immensely and have been fortunate to have good

> > >outcomes for the kids and families with whom I have worked. As a

> > >true behavior therapist, I find this quite rewarding, and keep doing

> > >more of it! I recently published UP AND DOWN THE WORRY HILL: A

> > >CHILDREN'S BOOK ABOUT OCD AND ITS TREATMENT which evolved directly in

> > >response to repeated requests from parents for a book that their

> > >children could read and understand. The book describes OCD from a

> > >child's perspective. In particular, it focuses on describing

> > >Behavior Therapy for OCD in a manner which children can comprehend,

> > >and preparing them for treatment.

> > >

> > >I will be presenting a workshop on Up and Down the Worry Hill and my

> > >forthcoming companion parent guide WHAT TO DO WHEN YOUR CHILD HAS

> > >OCD: STRATEGIES AND SOLUTIONS at the OCF Conference in Chicago on

> > >Saturday August 12 from 11.30 am-12.45 pm, followed by a book signing

> > >from 1-2 pm. Hope to meet many of you there---I will be looking out

> > >for turtles!

> > >

> > >Reviews of Up and Down the Worry Hill by experts in OCD (including

> > > Jenike, Griest, Claiborn and Fred Penzel) and

> > >other information is available at www.Lighthouse-Press.com. Up and

> > >Down the Worry Hill is not at the bookstores yet and is only

> > >available directly from Lighthouse Press at the website or at

> > > (888) 749-8768 (toll free in the USA) at the current time.

> > >

> > >I look forward to our continued involvement in the future, and to

> > >meeting many of you in Chicago (where I will be with husband, 2 kids

> > >and much paraphernalia for 1 day).

> > >

> > >Take care,

> > >Aureen

> >

> > You may subscribe to the OCD-L by emailing listserv@... . In

> the body of your message write: subscribe OCD-L your name. The

Archives,

> Files, and Features List for the may be accessed by

> going to , enter your email address and password,

> then point and click. Subscription issues, problems, or suggestions may

be

> addressed to Louis Harkins, list owner, at harkins@... .

> >

>

> You may subscribe to the OCD-L by emailing listserv@... . In

the body of your message write: subscribe OCD-L your name. The Archives,

Files, and Features List for the may be accessed by

going to , enter your email address and password,

then point and click. Subscription issues, problems, or suggestions may be

addressed to Louis Harkins, list owner, at harkins@... .

>

August 27, 2000

aUREEN-

My son, Joe, also has the urge to jump up and down. We have been trying

to figure out if it was a tic or a compulsion. We know he has OCD, but many

of his compulsions are tic like. Joe seems to think it is a compulsion but

can't say just what triggers it. We haven't come up with a good cbt method

of treating it. His therapist has suggested habit reversal techniques but

it just isn't working. How did you help this child that you refer to in

your note? Thanks, Eliza in WI

Re: Spitting

> Hello all,

> Just responding to the question of whether spitting is a compulsion or a

> tic:

>

> Telling tics, compulsions and acting-out behavior can be difficult when

the

> particular behavior is directed at someone or is harmful/aggressive, eg

> spitting. Tics can resemble rituals and tics and compulsions can

co-occur.

> Acting out and aggression can occur with both TS and OCD. The main way to

> discern whether spitting is a tic, compulsion or acting out is to look

> carefully at the CONTEXT in which it occurs.

>

> Tics are usually sudden, quick, involuntary and purposeless movements and

> sounds. They also happen more randomly, not in response to a specific

> anxiety trigger, and occur in a wide variety of situations. In contrast,

> compulsions are always purposeful, deliberate, more elaborate, follow

rigid

> rules, occur in response to anxiety, and usually occur in specific

> situations. Children also appear to be more consciously aware of engaging

> in compulsions than tics. For instance, if your child spits every time he

> eats or drinks, and not at any other time, it is more likely to be a

> compulsion. If it were a tic, it would occur more randomly, and not

> necessarily in the same situation from day to day.

>

> One of my young patients with TS and OCD articulated the difference betwee

n

> the two disorders very well: " My brain makes me want to jump up and down,

> but when my eyes blink, they just do that on their own. " He was aware

that

> the jumping was a more purposeful urge and was a compulsion that felt

driven

> to perform, whereas the eye blink happened somewhat automatically and was

a

> tic.

>

> Acting out is usually associated with anger, being thwarted, not getting

> wants met, need for revenge, attention-seeking etc. IF your child has been

> showing these emotions in these contexts, and the spitting is limited to

> these situations, it is more likely to be acting out and should be handled

> with limit setting and consequences.

>

> Children with Asperger's Syndrome and other Pervasive Developmental

> Disorders may also have stereotypies, which are similar to rituals, except

> that they are something the child wants to do and from which she often

> derives gratification--this makes sorting it out even more complex.

>

> Hope this is helpful,

> Aureen P. Wagner, Ph.D.

>

November 2, 2001

My son used to spit a lot. It was a behavioral problem rather than a medical one. He got pretty good at his aim, one of his favorite targets was my bedroom mirror and he would get very upset when I cleaned it. Of course, this behavior graduated to people. The more you would protest, the more he would spit. The only thing that worked was ignoring it completely as if it didn't happen. Yucky, but effective. His spitting was then limited to his speech therapist who would not follow my example, and to my sister who decided to have him spend the night so she could "cure" him, lol. I have to laugh only because as much as she loves her nephew, she really has no understanding of autism and the behaviors associated with it. If "curing" him were such a simple thing, our lives would be so much easier, lol, but as many parents of Autistic kids know, you cant always use traditional means to curb certain behaviors. She being my older sister, has some problems taking advice from her baby sister. Needless to say, she was unable to cure him and the incidents of his spitting at her increased. Finally she listened to me and he no longer spits at her. His speech therapist is no longer at the school, so he doesn't spit at anyone any more.

November 2, 2001

Janet,

have you told your Dr. about this? That would be the first thing

I would do. Lois

Janet and Shaughnessy wrote:

My

son spits - sometimes constantly. Spitting on the floor has decreased after

implementing a consequence that he cleans it up but lately he spits on

his fingers and rubs it in his ears. His ears are often bright red and

very hot. He will put ice on them but it isn't always practical. Any ideas

or anyone have expereince with hot ears. Janet

November 2, 2001

Janet, One doctor told me red ears were a sign of allergies, which could also be connected to the spitting if he has drainage into his mouth. Has he been tested for allergies? My son's spitting worsens when allergies are bad. Joanne Re: spitting Janet, have you told your Dr. about this? That would be the first thing I would do. Lois Janet and Shaughnessy wrote: My son spits - sometimes constantly. Spitting on the floor has decreased after implementing a consequence that he cleans it up but lately he spits on his fingers and rubs it in his ears. His ears are often bright red and very hot. He will put ice on them but it isn't always practical. Any ideas or anyone have expereince with hot ears. Janet

November 3, 2001

In a message dated 11/2/01 2:53:28 PM Pacific Standard Time,

jshaughnessy4@... writes:

<< My son spits - sometimes constantly. Spitting on the floor has decreased

after implementing a consequence that he cleans it up but lately he spits on

his fingers and rubs it in his ears. His ears are often bright red and very

hot. He will put ice on them but it isn't always practical. Any ideas or

anyone have expereince with hot ears.

Janet >>

Lotion? Doctor? Maybe the spitting has nothing to do with ears (e.g.,

spitting on the floor)?

November 5, 2001

In a message dated 11/2/2001 5:54:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, jlois@... writes:

.. His ears are often bright red and very hot. He will put ice on them but it isn't always practical. Any ideas or anyone have expereince with hot ears. Janet

are his ears hot from the spit? If not red/hot ears are a sign of some type of food or environmental allergy.

February 27, 2002

In a message dated 2/26/02 10:19:33 PM Pacific Standard Time,

writes:

>

> > nathan has been spitting unusually more too, maybe its the weather? who

> > knows, shawna.

>

> Hi a,

> Does spit when he is upset?

> Charlyne

> Mom to Zeb 9 DS/OCD ?

>

My also spits. Now it is whenever I tell him he can't do something or

he needs to stop. Not good phrases to use with him. If he can't have

something he will spit on it. Ex. I have a dowel in the handle of the kitchen

drawers to keep out the baby. wanted to remove it. I told him it needed

to stay there so he had to bend over and spit on it. He used to lick things

but that has decreased.

He will also spit at people when mad. If nothing to spit on he will just let

some spit run out of his mouth.

Now that I'm describing it I realize how disgusting it is. Yikes.

Karyn

February 27, 2002

In a message dated 2/27/2002 3:52:52 PM Eastern Standard Time,

KVanRyzin@... writes:

> Now it is whenever I tell him he can't do something or

> he needs to stop.

Hi Karyn,

Zeb never does it at home but he does at school I think for the same resaon.

They get all pissy about it.

Charlyne

Mom to Zeb 9 DS/OCD ?

November 18, 2002

Hi a,

Zeb has the spitting problem too. It's one of the only things that the school

goes crazy over. I can't blame them. I know it's Zeb way of telling them

something is wrong and to get a reaction. I started telling Zeb that he is

only allowed to spit in a tissue. He rarely spits at home but I asked the

school to hand him one when this starts. It has seemed to help and then they

can move him on. I have a great teacher this year so she does try what I

suggest. The spitting had decreased to a few times a week from numerous times

during the day. Zeb writing skills are also very poor. It was just a waste of

time. I had the school actually stop and focus more on the computer. I had

the school reintroduce the writing this year but gradually and he can write

his first and last name. It isn't perfect but he was ready and he mastered

this in the last month after 2 yrs. of nothing. I used the dots and decreased

as he did better. I still keep the dittos home for reinforcement. Zeb does

use Edmark but also a combination of phonic based programs. Using a whole

language approach is a good starting point but the school shouldn't stop

trying to introduce phonomic awareness. I actually did much research on

reading programs and spoke to many reading consultants. I asked the school

for years but saw little result until I went outside for answers. I had to

introduce letter sounds myself by doing letter games at home. The school

continually told me mastering those skills was impossible, not true. I am

still battling the school to up the bar. I had to teach him first before I

could get that into his program. Zeb also is hearing impaired. We have been

doing letter sounds for the past year and finally he is starting to decode

words. I almost gave up and resigned myself to the whole language until I

spoke to the consultants and kept trying.

Charlyne

Mom to Zeb 9 DS/OCD ?

November 19, 2002

In a message dated 11/19/2002 4:38:40 AM Central Standard Time,

writes:

<<

As you all know weve been having behavior probs this school year. Anyways,

all i need all your successess or ideas on stopping spitting. And remember I

will be printing them off for his upcoming 3year review/IEP. I look to you

guys as the pros, a whole university hospital never has any answers for us or

the school . Also any input for his other areas too is food for thought.

OT, needs some brainstorming ideas, have been doing handwriting without tears

for years now and still to no avail, and UIHC stated he has no inpalm hand

strength, most likely never write if he hasnt been able to up to now.--We

still want him to practice his name at least for any future signing of

documents--any ideas??? Im thinking maybe a hand brace to try? speech we are

still ademant for augmentive communication but are also interested in this

edmark speech program i found in abilitations catalog works on pronunciations

with mic and earphones and computer etc, anyone ever tried it? We are still

working hard on reading using an edmark program as of this fall due to his

hoard of hearing phonics hasnt helped so relying more on sight association.

Math is mostly still on concepts me and DH dont feel he is able to understand

addition and subtraction as of yet, he does counting, and manipulatives of

more and less and shapes etc, oh and telling time is coming very well.

does many sensory integration activiities throughout the day to help him calm

but not hleping much this year---not hard enough labor,lol. Im going to

request an exercise bike and minitrampoline for him at school, these are two

of his fav activities at home. I discussed his " time out " dicipline that has

been working as of lately at home with teacher this morning--they have been

having a hard time with his hyperactivity. He isnt that much hyper-er off the

meds than he was on them. Im thinking about starting a gluten free diet to

see if lowers hyperactivity, but not sure where to start--they did test him

and found no allergy to cluten or casiene awhile back. But first off im still

waitng to hear back form doc on his labs, been ill and sleeping lots over l

last month now, plus many behavior probs, If labs or still normal--which

usually are--will see about anohter sleep study, its been a couple years

since last one and maybe he needs pressure of cpap increased again--sleep

apnea can cause many of these same symtoms. sorry this turned out soo long.

eagerly waiting for your replies. shawna.--p.s. forgot to mention he is in

5th grade, special ed academics and integrated for all specials (our choice

last two years) except art now, Next year for 6th grade its a whole new

building etc and we are not ready to send him to middle school. It took us

too long to get our special ed room. shawna. >>

We haven't found a solution to our spitting situation but some of the things

we have tried are oral stimulation, avoiding foods that increase salivation

(sour candies in our case), teaching alternative behaviors, taking a break

before the behavior escalates to spitting. OK, there is the list hope it

works better for you than it did for us.

As far as the hyperactivity what works for us is times during his school day

where he does gross motor activities. Even at 13 years old can only

focus on a lesson for 10 minutes before losing interest so his teachers work

with him for 10 minutes then have him take a note to the office or some

errand where he will move around. He has time each day to shoot baskets, ride

a stationary bike or adaptive bike. We really find the activity lets him sit

when he needs to.

As far as handwriting, we find doing handwriting without tears on a slate

board works for . We did lots of hand/finger strengthening activities

before starting this.

Good luck,

Karyn

November 19, 2002

Hi a,

We have spitting issues with Brook too. Do you know why he is doing it?

That might help you to put a stop to the behavior. Maybe you can use a reward

system or something like that. For us, as usual it is a water related

activity. Brook enjoys seeing the spray that he makes when he spits. It's his

way of playing with water without a sink or faucet. He does it for his own

amusement and not to get a reaction. The only thing we do is tell him no

spitting and he will usually stop. I'm sorry you are having a rough time with

behavior problems this year. By the way Brook's whole class goes on a 1 1/2

to 2 mile walk everyday.

Marisa,

Miles 15, Brook 12, Genevieve 5

November 19, 2002

Hi a,

Well, sometime back I read somewhere on this. Some parents had

complained about their child spitting in people's faces and agreed

that each time the child would spit, the child would get squirted in

the face with water. Once the child found out how it felt, it had

stopped. Another was everytime the child spitted and the water was

not effective, the spitting stopped only when they used vinegar or

lemon juice, which was squirted directly into the child's mouth each

time the child spitted. It might of been from the Parent Survival

book, can't recall at this time. I'll stop here as my turn to get

some zzzzz's. Luck.

Irma,14,DS/ASD

> As you all know weve been having behavior probs this school year.

Anyways, all i need all your successess or ideas on stopping

spitting. And remember I will be printing them off for his upcoming

3year review/IEP. I look to you guys as the pros, a whole university

hospital never has any answers for us or the school . Also any

input for his other areas too is food for thought. OT, needs some

brainstorming ideas, have been doing handwriting without tears for

years now and still to no avail, and UIHC stated he has no inpalm

hand strength, most likely never write if he hasnt been able to up to

now.--We still want him to practice his name at least for any future

signing of documents--any ideas??? Im thinking maybe a hand brace to

try? speech we are still ademant for augmentive communication but

are also interested in this edmark speech program i found in

abilitations catalog works on pronunciations with mic and earphones

and computer etc, anyone ever tried it? We are still working hard on

reading using an edmark program as of this fall due to his hoard of

hearing phonics hasnt helped so relying more on sight association.

Math is mostly still on concepts me and DH dont feel he is able to

understand addition and subtraction as of yet, he does counting, and

manipulatives of more and less and shapes etc, oh and telling time is

coming very well. does many sensory integration activiities

throughout the day to help him calm but not hleping much this year---

not hard enough labor,lol. Im going to request an exercise bike and

minitrampoline for him at school, these are two of his fav activities

at home. I discussed his " time out " dicipline that has been working

as of lately at home with teacher this morning--they have been having

a hard time with his hyperactivity. He isnt that much hyper-er off

the meds than he was on them. Im thinking about starting a gluten

free diet to see if lowers hyperactivity, but not sure where to start-

-they did test him and found no allergy to cluten or casiene awhile

back. But first off im still waitng to hear back form doc on his

labs, been ill and sleeping lots over l last month now, plus many

behavior probs, If labs or still normal--which usually are--will see

about anohter sleep study, its been a couple years since last one and

maybe he needs pressure of cpap increased again--sleep apnea can

cause many of these same symtoms. sorry this turned out soo long.

eagerly waiting for your replies. shawna.--p.s. forgot to mention he

is in 5th grade, special ed academics and integrated for all specials

(our choice last two years) except art now, Next year for 6th grade

its a whole new building etc and we are not ready to send him to

middle school. It took us too long to get our special ed room. shawna.

>

November 20, 2002

thanks all who have replied soo far, many good tips, and im looking forward

to more!! you guys are great!!! shawna.

----- Original Message -----

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November 21, 2002

Hi a,

Jimmy was a very enthusiastic spitter when he was in first grade (age

7). He would blow very liquid raspberries, mostly at his

paraprofessional, but also at others. This became a real problem

that almost resulted in his being removed from his full inclusion

program. Our solution worked, but I got flamed when I shared it on

another list. I'll risk the flaming again - LOL - one of the moms

told me that I was a throwback to the 60's - but I grew up in the

60's and I think I turned out pretty darn well!!!

Anyway, here's what we did. My DH was between jobs at the time, so

he was at home when we started this. Home was about a 1 minute drive

from school.

We sat ol' Jimbo down and explained to him that spitting was NOT

okay. We told him that if he spit at anyone ever again, that mom or

dad was going to come get him from school, wash his mouth out with

soap in the car, then he would come home, sit in the time out chair

for an hour, and then spend the rest of the day in his room with no

computer, tv, etc.

Harsh? Yes. Did it work? Yes.

The first day, when we sat him down at school with the principal,

teacher and aide, he said " Okay, I not spit. " He proceeded to walk

out of the room to return to class, take about 5 steps, and then spit

at the aide. Made it easy. First " consequence " happened right

away. He went out to the car, got a bar of soap swiped on his

tongue, went home, sat in time out, and spent the day in his room.

The next day, we reminded him of the new consequence. He said " okay,

no more spitting. " He made it for about an hour that day. When he

spit at the aide, she walked him to the hall (without saying a word),

called us, and Steve picked him up and applied the consequences.

The next day, we reminded him again. This day, he lasted until right

before lunch. When he spit, and the aide stood up, he said " I sorry,

I sorry - no call daddy. " She called anyway, and consequences were

applied.

The following day, he lasted all day with no spitting. Yee ha! We

were all so happy!!

That Friday, he regressed - spit at about 1:00. Again he

apologized. Again consequences were applied.

The following Monday, he spit before lunch. Apologies, and

consequences.

He then had several good days with no spitting. Happiness ran

rampant.

He had another " mistake " about a week later. We just continued

applying the same consequences. By this time, Steve was back to

work, so I had to leave work to apply them. But I had explained the

situation to my boss, and he was supportive.

After about 3 weeks, Jimmy NEVER spit again, at home or at work. He

is now in 5th grade, and still NEVER spits.

So, like I said before....it was harsh, but I think well worth the

temporary pain to us and him. It worked. In my mind, some behaviors

are just plain unacceptable, and don't deserve to be tolerated AT

ALL. I don't agree with the use of positive reinforcement plans to

correct them.

I know, though, that our approach is not for everyone. It's similar

to the suggestion of the one mom that said to use lemon juice or

vinegar. I did make sure to use Ivory soap!!!

(the newbie......who many of you now might think horrible

things about!!!!)

November 22, 2002

In a message dated 11/22/2002 4:56:13 AM Central Standard Time,

writes:

<<

I know, though, that our approach is not for everyone. It's similar

to the suggestion of the one mom that said to use lemon juice or

vinegar. I did make sure to use Ivory soap!!!

(the newbie......who many of you now might think horrible

things about!!!!)

>>

,.

No flames from me. I " m so sick of spitting that I would try just about

anything. Problem is that likes to eat soap, lemon juice, hot sauce,

you name it he'll eat it.

Glad something worked for you so the problem was conquered.

Karyn

November 22, 2002

I dont think it is harsh, HOW MANY TIMES have we said or even told we try to

treat our special needs kids as or non special needs kids. But I dont think

it would worl in nathans case because i generally work about 30min from

school/home and i cant leave my patients unattended. But maybe something

like this just modified. I have been printing off all the ideas for his

3year review/IEP on tuesday, dont worry i cut off the addresses and

blackened out any names. shawna.

Re: spitting

> Hi a,

>

> Jimmy was a very enthusiastic spitter when he was in first grade (age

> 7). He would blow very liquid raspberries, mostly at his

> paraprofessional, but also at others. This became a real problem

> that almost resulted in his being removed from his full inclusion

> program. Our solution worked, but I got flamed when I shared it on

> another list. I'll risk the flaming again - LOL - one of the moms

> told me that I was a throwback to the 60's - but I grew up in the

> 60's and I think I turned out pretty darn well!!!

>

> Anyway, here's what we did. My DH was between jobs at the time, so

> he was at home when we started this. Home was about a 1 minute drive

> from school.

>

> We sat ol' Jimbo down and explained to him that spitting was NOT

> okay. We told him that if he spit at anyone ever again, that mom or

> dad was going to come get him from school, wash his mouth out with

> soap in the car, then he would come home, sit in the time out chair

> for an hour, and then spend the rest of the day in his room with no

> computer, tv, etc.

>

> Harsh? Yes. Did it work? Yes.

>

> The first day, when we sat him down at school with the principal,

> teacher and aide, he said " Okay, I not spit. " He proceeded to walk

> out of the room to return to class, take about 5 steps, and then spit

> at the aide. Made it easy. First " consequence " happened right

> away. He went out to the car, got a bar of soap swiped on his

> tongue, went home, sat in time out, and spent the day in his room.

>

> The next day, we reminded him of the new consequence. He said " okay,

> no more spitting. " He made it for about an hour that day. When he

> spit at the aide, she walked him to the hall (without saying a word),

> called us, and Steve picked him up and applied the consequences.

>

> The next day, we reminded him again. This day, he lasted until right

> before lunch. When he spit, and the aide stood up, he said " I sorry,

> I sorry - no call daddy. " She called anyway, and consequences were

> applied.

>

> The following day, he lasted all day with no spitting. Yee ha! We

> were all so happy!!

>

> That Friday, he regressed - spit at about 1:00. Again he

> apologized. Again consequences were applied.

>

> The following Monday, he spit before lunch. Apologies, and

> consequences.

>

> He then had several good days with no spitting. Happiness ran

> rampant.

>

> He had another " mistake " about a week later. We just continued

> applying the same consequences. By this time, Steve was back to

> work, so I had to leave work to apply them. But I had explained the

> situation to my boss, and he was supportive.

>

> After about 3 weeks, Jimmy NEVER spit again, at home or at work. He

> is now in 5th grade, and still NEVER spits.

>

> So, like I said before....it was harsh, but I think well worth the

> temporary pain to us and him. It worked. In my mind, some behaviors

> are just plain unacceptable, and don't deserve to be tolerated AT

> ALL. I don't agree with the use of positive reinforcement plans to

> correct them.

>

> I know, though, that our approach is not for everyone. It's similar

> to the suggestion of the one mom that said to use lemon juice or

> vinegar. I did make sure to use Ivory soap!!!

>

> (the newbie......who many of you now might think horrible

> things about!!!!)

>

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> --------------------------------------------

>

November 23, 2002

Hi Jimmy's mom ,

Welcome! Us think horrible of you? You do what you gotta do, thats

what count and thanks for sharing your side of the story on what

worked for your son Jimmy. I know I would of been accused of child

abuse or something, back during my son's elementary days if I had

done what you had done. I had to watch everything I said or did, as

would mimic alot and I was accused of not being a good parent.

probably would of grabbed a soap bar and done it to others so

that they would stop spitting. I was even accused of allowing him to

watch wrestling as he would hit his classmates. heard the

word " shut up " which became pretty well known. Then to make him

understand or listen was not easy, as I thought he was partially

deaf. The ASD was something not in the picture, so the list adds on.

It has made a difference now with the second label included, now that

he is attending middle school. Once all professionals whom have

worked with have come to their senses and with positive

results shown with the services that have been addressed. Yes,

indeed it was another issue to conquer. Yep! We have to go with what

works. Looking forward hearing more about Jimmy.

Irma,14,DS/ASD

October 10, 2003

Shirley,

Is your daughter being seen by a pyschologist or a pyschiatrist ?? If so, then a behavioral plan needs to be written & implemented. For the school to call you every time she does spit is unacceptable. The school needs to be trained on how to deal with her behavior. If the steps are outlined then everyone is on the same page.

If you daughter isn't seen on a regular basis by either pr pyschologist or a pyschiatrist, the school has one of their staff that should be able to come with a plan. If they try to write something in the plan that you don't like, don't sign it. This behavioral plan should also be written in her IEP if she has one.

A child is like a butterfly in the wind, some fly faster, some fly harder but they all fly the best they can. Each one is different, each one is beautiful and each one is special.

Spitting

I just got a call from my daughters school to come pick her up because she is spitting in peoples faces. I got a letter yesterday regarding the same thing. She had spit in the past but always on the floor when she is angry. I don't know what to do to get her to stop spitting. The school seems to think that all I need to do is talk to her about how it is wrong and she will just stop. I have discussed this with her until I am blue in the face and she still spits. Any suggestions... Please... I don't know what to do at this point. Thanks for any help.. Shirley

October 10, 2003

Would a social story help to give her another way to communicate?

Is she verbal? If she spits can they redirect her to something she

doesn't want to do? Like write sentences " I won't spit, I won't

spit " over and over?

My friend's kid has been spitting and hitting but it is because

after seizure activity he acts out.

Could she be having acid reflux, not feeling good, and getting too

much saliva in her mouth?

Let us know what works.

> I just got a call from my daughters school to come pick her up

> because she is spitting in peoples faces. I got a letter

yesterday

> regarding the same thing. She had spit in the past but always on

> the floor when she is angry. I don't know what to do to get her

to

> stop spitting. The school seems to think that all I need to do is

> talk to her about how it is wrong and she will just stop. I have

> discussed this with her until I am blue in the face and she still

> spits. Any suggestions... Please... I don't know what to do at

this

> point. Thanks for any help.. Shirley

October 10, 2003

Would a social story help to give her another way to communicate?

Is she verbal? If she spits can they redirect her to something she

doesn't want to do? Like write sentences " I won't spit, I won't

spit " over and over?

My friend's kid has been spitting and hitting but it is because

after seizure activity he acts out.

Could she be having acid reflux, not feeling good, and getting too

much saliva in her mouth?

Let us know what works.

> I just got a call from my daughters school to come pick her up

> because she is spitting in peoples faces. I got a letter

yesterday

> regarding the same thing. She had spit in the past but always on

> the floor when she is angry. I don't know what to do to get her

to

> stop spitting. The school seems to think that all I need to do is

> talk to her about how it is wrong and she will just stop. I have

> discussed this with her until I am blue in the face and she still

> spits. Any suggestions... Please... I don't know what to do at

this

> point. Thanks for any help.. Shirley

October 11, 2003

CB does that too....now, he only spits occasionally. The first thing we tried was to have him "blow invisible bubbles" that worked some, but what we had to do was stop any fun activity and say 'your spitting , I'm not going to play with you " and we really meant it. If he started in anger we walked away from him , totally ignoring him. This will get worse if you give her any reaction. We know .Some of it was due to losing his teeth (he was 5 at the time) and that bothered him,lots of saliva(YUCK !) He just lost his front teeth so ,he has been spitting cause you can do so great without front teeth LOL,but we just act like he's gone .

CB's Granny

October 11, 2003

Dear Shirley,

That is totally unacceptable that the school expects you to solve a behavior

that is happening at school which is the result of something probably they

are not doing for your child- most likely not providing an appropriate

program or a positive support plan. How aggravating for you! I have been

called to pick my son up for behavioral problems. For me it is always a

wakeup call. I try to get someone from the outside in to acess the

situation, call for an IEP, whatever. In general I make a fuss! Get the

IEP team together and find out what your child is not getting at school.

They are trying to dump the problem on you when it is their job to educate

your child and find out the causes for unwelcome behaviors. Educating your

child is supposed to be a team effort. They are conveniently forgetting and

you will have to remind them. There is a site that provides ideas on

creating a behavioral support plan. http://www.pbis.org/

take care,

Sandy

October 11, 2003