enzyme question

[Guest guest]

Yes, I agree with Debbie. In fact, it is my understanding that all

autoimmune disease can fluctuate in this way. Mine went up and down

quite a bit before treatment, and even spike up higher than ever

right after starting the meds. They have been normal now for about 8

months, but go up and down in the normal range too.

> Can liver enzymes go down on their own with AIH?

>

> Cheryl

[Guest guest]

>Hi fredrick,

Two thoughts spring to mind:

1) Maybe he's withdrawing from the gluten and casein, much the same

as if you'd done the gf/cf diet - in which case, continue? (Good sign)

2) Our asd son has been gf/cf for about 1 1/2 years, but he recently

started using enzymes with every meal and snack, alongside the gf/cf

diet. He's been awful for about a week, though definately calmed

down in last couple of days. Again, this may be a withdrawal

(because it is not only gluten and milk he may have a problem with)

, but our nutritional therapist said it might be a " die-off " too.

Aparently, enzymes like peptizide will kill off yeast. This is

interesting, because I notice there has been some posts about enzymes

(Houston) being the best anti-fungal somebody had tried. (Sorry,

forget who posted that.) So, we were advised that might explain the

behaviour problems of late.

In your case, it could be both - most likely the first?

While I am posting, the other question mark we had regarding Gethin's

behaviour (which is the worst I have known him since pre-diet), was

that we may not be getting away with infringements. For the last few

months we have relaxed and stated letting him eat the same as others

at birthday parties, a wedding we went to, meals out with family

etc. Well, over the summer we did do a week of diet challenge -

letting him have anything he wanted without enzymes (We saw

absolutely no behaviour problems, but he was complaining of a sore

tummy and had diarrohea by the end of the week, so we quickly

abandoned challenge, even though it may have been a complete

coincidence.) Apart from that week, we have always used enzymes. I

think it was Mandi who posted that she had given up the gf/cf diet,

and swears by enzymes, but I have heard/read anecdotally of children

who seem fine on enzymes for a while, then come crashing down after a

few months. (Others I think just abandoned the diet, without

enzymes, and saw a similar regression after months.) So we wonder

whether Gethin's behaviour is exactly that - a buildup of gluten over

months (Don't believe milk is the problem, since there didn't seem to

be the quick reaction associated with milk, which does not build up,

and is expelled within days(?))

So, has he had a build-up of gluten (or fluctuated with withdrawal)

Had a die-off because we've use peptizide regularly

Had a withdrawal because he had other intollerances besides gluten

and milk, which the enzymes have broken down?

To be honest, I think the first, because we really have relaxed the

diet over the last few months. But I think the idea of yeast die-off

with enzymes is an interesting one, particularly in light of recent

posting.

Just my thought,

Regards to all,

Kris

PS. Came to no conclusion regarding the effectiveness of Kirkman

enzymes compared to Houston. We have moved on to Kirkman's complete

and Enzymaid, only because we bought them ages ago. We will order

from Houston I think, because I felt I had a handle on which to give

for a particular food, and didn't feel I always had to give all

three. (Peptizyde, No-Fennol, Zyme-Prime - however spelt.)

> Hello group

> I have - once again - introduced AFP Peptizyde to my four year old

> boy. He is not on diet since he is very limited in eating . Last

time

> I did this nothing happened. This time I gave him 1/2 pill to

every

> meal. He is now on his third day and yesterday he started to act

very

> hyper, lots of laughing, then suddenly crying, etc, etc. This is

not

> unusual in his case, he can behave like this from time to time but

> not for more than 30 minutes. Yesterday was different. He also

sulked

> like he was in pain or felt sorry for himself (he is non verbal)

> which is very odd behaviour , coming from him. Do you think I

should

> stop the enzymes for a while ?

> Lower the dose ?

>

>

> best regards

> Fredrik

>

[Guest guest]

Hi, Just Kris again - wanted to add to my post (but can't add to

bottom), a little PS:

Regarding yeast die-off from using enzymes, Gethin hasn't got yeast

overgrowth at the moment. Bacteria (Clostridia) is his problem.

Will enzymes help that to die off too? Because I have noticed in the

last few days that tremendously brown poos have gone yellowy again,

which is what we've seen when yeast has become a problem in the past.

I have a crude notion that brown = bacteria, if yellow = yeast. I

was actually immensily proud of the poo sample we sent off for

Gethin. I thought being so brown and formed was a good sign, then we

are told he has clostridia (Now in the red on Organix Urine test).

Must ask nutritional therapist about this,

Kris

>

>Hi fredrick,

>

> Two thoughts spring to mind:

> 1) Maybe he's withdrawing from the gluten and casein, much the same

> as if you'd done the gf/cf diet - in which case, continue? (Good

sign)

>

> 2) Our asd son has been gf/cf for about 1 1/2 years, but he

recently

> started using enzymes with every meal and snack, alongside the

gf/cf

> diet. He's been awful for about a week, though definately calmed

> down in last couple of days. Again, this may be a withdrawal

> (because it is not only gluten and milk he may have a problem with)

> , but our nutritional therapist said it might be a " die-off " too.

> Aparently, enzymes like peptizide will kill off yeast. This is

> interesting, because I notice there has been some posts about

enzymes

> (Houston) being the best anti-fungal somebody had tried. (Sorry,

> forget who posted that.) So, we were advised that might explain

the

> behaviour problems of late.

>

> In your case, it could be both - most likely the first?

>

>

> While I am posting, the other question mark we had regarding

Gethin's

> behaviour (which is the worst I have known him since pre-diet), was

> that we may not be getting away with infringements. For the last

few

> months we have relaxed and stated letting him eat the same as

others

> at birthday parties, a wedding we went to, meals out with family

> etc. Well, over the summer we did do a week of diet challenge -

> letting him have anything he wanted without enzymes (We saw

> absolutely no behaviour problems, but he was complaining of a sore

> tummy and had diarrohea by the end of the week, so we quickly

> abandoned challenge, even though it may have been a complete

> coincidence.) Apart from that week, we have always used enzymes.

I

> think it was Mandi who posted that she had given up the gf/cf diet,

> and swears by enzymes, but I have heard/read anecdotally of

children

> who seem fine on enzymes for a while, then come crashing down after

a

> few months. (Others I think just abandoned the diet, without

> enzymes, and saw a similar regression after months.) So we wonder

> whether Gethin's behaviour is exactly that - a buildup of gluten

over

> months (Don't believe milk is the problem, since there didn't seem

to

> be the quick reaction associated with milk, which does not build

up,

> and is expelled within days(?))

>

> So, has he had a build-up of gluten (or fluctuated with withdrawal)

> Had a die-off because we've use peptizide regularly

> Had a withdrawal because he had other intollerances besides gluten

> and milk, which the enzymes have broken down?

>

> To be honest, I think the first, because we really have relaxed the

> diet over the last few months. But I think the idea of yeast die-

off

> with enzymes is an interesting one, particularly in light of recent

> posting.

>

> Just my thought,

> Regards to all,

> Kris

>

> PS. Came to no conclusion regarding the effectiveness of Kirkman

> enzymes compared to Houston. We have moved on to Kirkman's

complete

> and Enzymaid, only because we bought them ages ago. We will order

> from Houston I think, because I felt I had a handle on which to

give

> for a particular food, and didn't feel I always had to give all

> three. (Peptizyde, No-Fennol, Zyme-Prime - however spelt.)

>

>

> > Hello group

> > I have - once again - introduced AFP Peptizyde to my four year

old

> > boy. He is not on diet since he is very limited in eating . Last

> time

> > I did this nothing happened. This time I gave him 1/2 pill to

> every

> > meal. He is now on his third day and yesterday he started to act

> very

> > hyper, lots of laughing, then suddenly crying, etc, etc. This is

> not

> > unusual in his case, he can behave like this from time to time

but

> > not for more than 30 minutes. Yesterday was different. He also

> sulked

> > like he was in pain or felt sorry for himself (he is non verbal)

> > which is very odd behaviour , coming from him. Do you think I

> should

> > stop the enzymes for a while ?

> > Lower the dose ?

> >

> >

> > best regards

> > Fredrik

> >

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 08/11/2005 11:28:43 GMT Standard Time, krisandstusmith@... writes:

but I have heard/read anecdotally of children who seem fine on enzymes for a while, then come crashing down after a few months.

>>>I have never heard of this before - who did it happen to?

Mandi x

[Guest guest]

Hi, Fredrick

You can drop back to 1/2 capsule with one meal per day for a few

days. If he gets better, then move to 1/2 capsule at two meals per

day for a few days. Then go to same dose at 3 meals per day. If

doing okay, then increase one of those doses to a full capsule for a

few days, and so on.

Another option is to stop all enzymes for a few days and try

reintroducing only one small dose. If you see problems from that,

that could indicate an intolerance.

>

> Hello group

> I have - once again - introduced AFP Peptizyde to my four year

old

> boy. He is not on diet since he is very limited in eating . Last

time

> I did this nothing happened. This time I gave him 1/2 pill to

every

> meal. He is now on his third day and yesterday he started to act

very

> hyper, lots of laughing, then suddenly crying, etc, etc. This is

not

> unusual in his case, he can behave like this from time to time

but

> not for more than 30 minutes. Yesterday was different. He also

sulked

> like he was in pain or felt sorry for himself (he is non verbal)

> which is very odd behaviour , coming from him. Do you think I

should

> stop the enzymes for a while ?

> Lower the dose ?

>

>

> best regards

> Fredrik

>

[Guest guest]

>

Hi Mandy,

This is a good question, and we should question the source of

anecdotal info. I THINK it is implied in the DeFelice book on

enzymes, where parents wrote to the author saying enzymes were not

working - she suggests giving 15 mins before eating, so that the

vegi capsules dissolve properly. (Maybe that's where we have gone

wrong, as they've been almost an after-thought on occasion, taken

only during the meal/snack.) Also, we were not careful, or

scientific, in our approach. I think there's a risk of ditching the

diet too quickly, and getting blase about taking the enzymes.

(Houston recommends 3 months on enzymes before introducing gluten and

milk?) Because we never saw an instant behavioural problem after

trialling a piece of toast or glass of milk (WITHOUT enzymes), we

were pretty sure he didn't really need the enzymes anyway.

Our son's nutritional therapist does not advise us to reintroduce

gluten and milk for 2 reasons, as far as I can tell:

1. How much of the enzymes is enough? (Thinking literally in terms of

how much milk/gluten/other proteins/phenols etc need to be broken

down, she suggested we at least doubled the dose for a true

infringement.)

2. Gluten and milk are not considered good for anyone's system. In

our case, the York Blood test hightlighted mild allergy to milk. (I

wonder how many of us are allergic to it anyway, and how many others,

particularly older children and adults, simply cannot, and should not

breat it down? - increase in all sorts of gut related illnesses in

society? IBS in particular? coeliacs?

BUT we really would like to believe we can get away with a bit of

freedom when we're out, or on holiday. So, I haven't given up on

enzymes. Just not convinced, personally, that it's possible for us

to give up the diet with our asd son,YET.

Don't know, personally of anyone who regressed after giving up the

gf/cf diet and going onto enzymes. Know I've read it, and been

advised that that may be the case, maybe due to not being thorough

enough, as in our case, perhaps.

I should have been more careful of making such a sweeping statement

without evidence, accepted. However, after the way Gethin, our son,

has behaved after 3 months of dietary infringements with enzymes, I

won't/can't advise anyone myself to take this route. Wish I could!!

(For all I know, other factors are the cause of behavior - recent

introduction of MB12 shots at highter dose, bacterial overgrowth?)

I don't want to sound like I know what I'm talking about. I hope the

point of this forum is to discuss and share, not be self-professed

experts.

Regards,

Kris

> In a message dated 08/11/2005 11:28:43 GMT Standard Time,

> krisandstusmith@a... writes:

>

> but I have heard/read anecdotally of children

> who seem fine on enzymes for a while, then come crashing down

after a

> few months.

>

>

> >>>I have never heard of this before - who did it happen to?

>

> Mandi x

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Kris

This is a good question, and we should question the source of anecdotal info. I THINK it is implied in the DeFelice book on enzymes, where parents wrote to the author saying enzymes were not working - she suggests giving 15 mins before eating, so that the vegi capsules dissolve properly. (Maybe that's where we have gone wrong, as they've been almost an after-thought on occasion, taken only during the meal/snack.) Also, we were not careful, or scientific, in our approach. I think there's a risk of ditching the diet too quickly, and getting blase about taking the enzymes.

>>>Yep, this came up on the enzymes list very early in the game - did lots of kitchen experiments with different temps and pH to see what was going on. Sam can;t do capsules so we had always emptied them out. Also he was a grazer so he had enzymes all day long - which now we know more probably helped significantly in the gut healing department

(Houston recommends 3 months on enzymes before introducing gluten and milk?) Because we never saw an instant behavioural problem after trialling a piece of toast or glass of milk (WITHOUT enzymes), we were pretty sure he didn't really need the enzymes anyway.

>>>Hmmmmm, some have delayed reactions to Gluten, but Casein is usually pretty close to the infraction. Most isn't everybody though

Our son's nutritional therapist does not advise us to reintroduce gluten and milk for 2 reasons, as far as I can tell:1. How much of the enzymes is enough? (Thinking literally in terms of how much milk/gluten/other proteins/phenols etc need to be broken down, she suggested we at least doubled the dose for a true infringement.)

>>>Thats sound advice

2. Gluten and milk are not considered good for anyone's system. In our case, the York Blood test hightlighted mild allergy to milk. (I wonder how many of us are allergic to it anyway, and how many others, particularly older children and adults, simply cannot, and should not breat it down? - increase in all sorts of gut related illnesses in society? IBS in particular? coeliacs?

>>>We don't do milk but we do do Casein. Sam improved when these things were added back into the diet. Maybe he needed the sulphur sources, there is more than one reason why people do well on GFCF - its doesn;t have to be about opiods

BUT we really would like to believe we can get away with a bit of freedom when we're out, or on holiday. So, I haven't given up on enzymes. Just not convinced, personally, that it's possible for us to give up the diet with our asd son,YET.

>>>Not everybody can, many do do give up GFCF still have a few problem foods which once identified can smooth the way.

Don't know, personally of anyone who regressed after giving up the gf/cf diet and going onto enzymes. Know I've read it, and been advised that that may be the case, maybe due to not being thorough enough, as in our case, perhaps.

>>>More likely wrong type of enzyme, for example I know many that did DPPIV only - it doesn;t work if there aren;t a braod range of proteases to get the food to the stage where the DPPIV can actually work. Kirkma for instance didn;t give same effect here. Some people just can't give up GFCF, its all very individual.

I should have been more careful of making such a sweeping statement without evidence, accepted.

>>No worries, it is simply that I have never heard of anybody going off SUCCESSFULLY with HNI enzymes who later had a regression and I know Devin and are interested if this happens to anybody because they want to figure out why and to adjust the guidelines

However, after the way Gethin, our son, has behaved after 3 months of dietary infringements with enzymes, I won't/can't advise anyone myself to take this route. Wish I could!!

>>Reasonable - its all individual. Folsk in this country just don;t know that there MIGHT be an option - per AiA refusing to dicuss or allow discussion. They deleted my post when I was so excirted about Sam's improvements way back when.

(For all I know, other factors are the cause of behavior - recent introduction of MB12 shots at highter dose, bacterial overgrowth?)I don't want to sound like I know what I'm talking about. I hope the point of this forum is to discuss and share, not be self-professed experts.

>>I am not an expert on anything but my own son

Mandi x

[Guest guest]

Hi Anne-Marie, thank you for such an

uplifting update. Looks like is doing really well so congratulations

to you. Where were you getting your Valtrex from?

Sally in Manchester

From: Autism Treatment [mailto:Autism Treatment ] On Behalf Of amvsi

Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006

12:13 PM

Autism Treatment

Subject:

enzyme question

Hello,

has been taking HNI enzymes and I have

been reading de

Felice's (FREE WITH TREATING AUTISM MEMBERSHIP

PACK!!!). Where she

discusses reintroducing casein and gluten with the

support of these

enzymes, she talks about the difference between

intolerance and

allergy and says that IgE reactions indicate a

true allergy.

Per Immunosciences testing, came back

with elevated casein

IgA antibodies - what class of immune

reaction is this? He had

already been gf/cf for 3 yrs when he took this

test. The gliadin was

negative and his gluten peptide test done at Sunderland was

borderline for gluten but positive for casein.

On his 90 food IgG allergy test the only thing

that was marked was

milk, as +2 moderate - obviously some getting

thorugh that I was

unaware of.

Anybody out there up on their immunoglobs?

TIA

Anne-Marie

[Guest guest]

>

Thanks Sally -

We live in Greece where you can get anything you want OTC as long as

you pay for it, but if you want to import CLO, you have to get

countless levels of bureaucratic approval as well as state appointed

chemist testing to get it in - LOL!

Hi Anne-Marie, thank you for such an uplifting update. Looks like

> is doing really well so congratulations to you. Where were you

getting your

> Valtrex from?

>

>

>

> Sally in Manchester

>

>

>

> _____

>

> From: Autism Treatment

> [mailto:Autism Treatment ] On Behalf Of

amvsi

> Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 12:13 PM

> Autism Treatment

> Subject: enzyme question

>

>

>

> Hello,

> has been taking HNI enzymes and I have been reading de

> Felice's (FREE WITH TREATING AUTISM MEMBERSHIP PACK!!!). Where she

> discusses reintroducing casein and gluten with the support of

these

> enzymes, she talks about the difference between intolerance and

> allergy and says that IgE reactions indicate a true allergy.

>

> Per Immunosciences testing, came back with elevated

casein

> IgA antibodies - what class of immune reaction is this? He had

> already been gf/cf for 3 yrs when he took this test. The gliadin

was

> negative and his gluten peptide test done at Sunderland was

> borderline for gluten but positive for casein.

>

> On his 90 food IgG allergy test the only thing that was marked was

> milk, as +2 moderate - obviously some getting thorugh that I was

> unaware of.

>

> Anybody out there up on their immunoglobs?

>

> TIA

>

> Anne-Marie

>

>

>

>

>

>

> DISCLAIMER

> No information contained in this post is to be construed as

medical advice.

> If you need medical advice, please seek it from a suitably

qualified

> practitioner.

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Someone I know wants to take enzymes to reduce fibrin, but experiences diarrhea.

Is that taking too much, at the wrong time, or what?

Leo

[Guest guest]

When I initially started taking nattokinease the dosage was high (as

recommended by the practioner). After 30 days the dosage was reduced to

higher than a maintenance dosage as recommended on the label. For the first

5 days I experienced diarrhea with every bathroom visit. And I would say

that it was a different kind of diarrhea than previous visits, but won't

comment on the differences. I made mention to the practioner of this

experience, he had never heard of this occurring with other patients. For

me I thought of the experience as a way of my body getting rid of some toxic

material that needed to be evacuated immediately and that the enzyme was

doing what is was suppose to do- balance out my body.

Michele

_____

From: Dr [mailto:Dr ] On Behalf Of

regehr2001

Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 9:56 PM

Dr

Subject: enzyme question

Someone I know wants to take enzymes to reduce fibrin, but experiences

diarrhea. Is that taking too much, at the wrong time, or what?

Leo

[Guest guest]

Thank you for that. I saw on the 'net somewhere, instructions on how to know

when you are getting a benifit from the enzymes, in other words, how to tell

when you are taking enough. Do you know of the site?

Leo

-------------------

>

> When I initially started taking nattokinease the dosage was high (as

> recommended by the practioner). After 30 days the dosage was reduced to

> higher than a maintenance dosage as recommended on the label. For the first

> 5 days I experienced diarrhea with every bathroom visit. And I would say

> that it was a different kind of diarrhea than previous visits, but won't

> comment on the differences. I made mention to the practioner of this

> experience, he had never heard of this occurring with other patients. For

> me I thought of the experience as a way of my body getting rid of some toxic

> material that needed to be evacuated immediately and that the enzyme was

> doing what is was suppose to do- balance out my body.

>

>

>

> Michele

>

>

>

> _____

>

> From: Dr [mailto:Dr ] On Behalf Of

> regehr2001

> Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 9:56 PM

> Dr

> Subject: enzyme question

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Someone I know wants to take enzymes to reduce fibrin, but experiences

> diarrhea. Is that taking too much, at the wrong time, or what?

> Leo

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Leo,

No. I have not investigated this.

Michele

_____

From: Dr [mailto:Dr ] On Behalf Of

regehr2001

Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2009 2:50 PM

Dr

Subject: Re: enzyme question

Thank you for that. I saw on the 'net somewhere, instructions on how to know

when you are getting a benifit from the enzymes, in other words, how to tell

when you are taking enough. Do you know of the site?

Leo

-------------------

>

> When I initially started taking nattokinease the dosage was high (as

> recommended by the practioner). After 30 days the dosage was reduced to

> higher than a maintenance dosage as recommended on the label. For the

first

> 5 days I experienced diarrhea with every bathroom visit. And I would say

> that it was a different kind of diarrhea than previous visits, but won't

> comment on the differences. I made mention to the practioner of this

> experience, he had never heard of this occurring with other patients. For

> me I thought of the experience as a way of my body getting rid of some

toxic

> material that needed to be evacuated immediately and that the enzyme was

> doing what is was suppose to do- balance out my body.

>

>

>

> Michele

>

>

>

> _____

>

> From: Dr@groups <mailto:Dr%40> .com

[mailto:Dr@groups <mailto:Dr%40> .com] On

Behalf Of

> regehr2001

> Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 9:56 PM

> Dr@groups <mailto:Dr%40> .com

> Subject: enzyme question

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Someone I know wants to take enzymes to reduce fibrin, but experiences

> diarrhea. Is that taking too much, at the wrong time, or what?

> Leo

>

>

>

>

>

>