Just came back from Endo. Test is 378 and gave me Clomid

August 13, 2004

My doctor (PCP - internal medicine) called my Testosterone " adequate " when

it was at 1022. He's yet to comment on the latest 1500+ from last week's

labs. Max ref range both tests 827.

> Re: Just came back from Endo. Test is

> 378 and gave me Clomid

>

> I get them from a compounding pharmacy called The Medicine

> Shoppe and their phone number is (610) 378-1396. I'll leave

> it to the more knowledgeable people on this board to debate

> the issue as to whether the 900 range is too high or not. I

> simply don't know. My Doctor has not expressed that concern

> when we have gone over the lab reports together.

> Just came back from Endo.

> Test is 378

> and

> > gave me Clomid

> > >

> > > My Endo says my T was 378 and says it is up but not enough.

> This

> > is

> > > as high as it has been in two years. Not sure why

> it is this

> > high.

> > > It is usually around 160's He started me on 25 mg

> of Clomid

> > every

> > > other day. Does anyone know if this will be enough to get

> the

> > boys

> > > pumping? Thanks for all the help and the info

> regarding my

> > apnea

> > > etc....

> > >

August 13, 2004

Did you get your E2 checked when your T level was 1500 or even at

1,000 ? I would bet it's sky high as the T is converting to E2 unless

you are using something to control it

> > > > I have been on 15 mg of clomid taken on Mondays, Wednesdays,

> > and

> > > Fridays since April of this year. I have seen my total

> > T go from

> > the

> > > low 300 range to 988 on my last blood 2 weeks ago. So yes, in

> > > theory, what you are taking might be enough if you are truly

> > > secondary hypogonadic.

> > > > Just came back from Endo.

> > Test is 378

> > and

> > > gave me Clomid

> > > >

> > > > My Endo says my T was 378 and says it is up but not enough.

> > This

> > > is

> > > > as high as it has been in two years. Not sure why

> > it is this

> > > high.

> > > > It is usually around 160's He started me on 25 mg

> > of Clomid

> > > every

> > > > other day. Does anyone know if this will be enough to get

> > the

> > > boys

> > > > pumping? Thanks for all the help and the info

> > regarding my

> > > apnea

> > > > etc....

> > > >

August 13, 2004

It is a light estrogen from my understanding and binds to the

estrogen receptors in your body and actually keeps testosterone from

metabolizing into Estrogen. I think when bodybuilders use it with

Novaldex they are trying to get a different result then we are.

They are also using alot more T. Novaldex also suppresses estrogen

I believe but alot more than Clomid does. They use it to keep from

getting what is known as " Bitch Tits "

> > > I have been on 15 mg of clomid taken on Mondays, Wednesdays,

and

> > Fridays since April of this year. I have seen my total T go

from

> > the low 300 range to 988 on my last blood 2 weeks ago. So yes,

in

> > theory, what you are taking might be enough if you are truly

> > secondary hypogonadic.

> > > Just came back from Endo. Test is

378

> > and gave me Clomid

> > >

> > > My Endo says my T was 378 and says it is up but not enough.

> This

> > is

> > > as high as it has been in two years. Not sure why it is

this

> > high.

> > > It is usually around 160's He started me on 25 mg of Clomid

> > every

> > > other day. Does anyone know if this will be enough to get

> the

> > boys

> > > pumping? Thanks for all the help and the info regarding

my

> > apnea

> > > etc....

> > >

August 13, 2004

Im not sure if its a compoounding pharmacy, but someone on the

finasteride group, gets their pills in 25mg from the pharmacy in

capsules.

> > > > > I have been on 15 mg of clomid taken on Mondays,

Wednesdays,

> > and

> > > > Fridays since April of this year. I have seen my total T

go

> > from the

> > > > low 300 range to 988 on my last blood 2 weeks ago. So yes,

in

> > > > theory, what you are taking might be enough if you are

truly

> > > > secondary hypogonadic.

> > > > > Just came back from Endo. Test

is

> > 378 and

> > > > gave me Clomid

> > > > >

> > > > > My Endo says my T was 378 and says it is up but not

enough.

> > This

> > > > is

> > > > > as high as it has been in two years. Not sure why it

is

> > this

> > > > high.

> > > > > It is usually around 160's He started me on 25 mg of

> > Clomid

> > > > every

> > > > > other day. Does anyone know if this will be enough to

get

> > the

> > > > boys

> > > > > pumping? Thanks for all the help and the info

regarding

> > my

> > > > apnea

> > > > > etc....

> > > > >

August 13, 2004

I've read that tongkat ali, lowers cortisol and it also acts similar

to clomid in that you produce more LH and T, but I don't know what

mechanism it works on.

I've also heard that T from clomid isn't the same as natural T.

> > I have been on 15 mg of clomid taken on Mondays, Wednesdays,

and

> Fridays since April of this year. I have seen my total T go from

> the low 300 range to 988 on my last blood 2 weeks ago. So yes,

in

> theory, what you are taking might be enough if you are truly

> secondary hypogonadic.

> > Just came back from Endo. Test is 378

> and gave me Clomid

> >

> > My Endo says my T was 378 and says it is up but not enough.

This

> is

> > as high as it has been in two years. Not sure why it is this

> high.

> > It is usually around 160's He started me on 25 mg of Clomid

> every

> > other day. Does anyone know if this will be enough to get

the

> boys

> > pumping? Thanks for all the help and the info regarding my

> apnea

> > etc....

> >

August 13, 2004

Re: Just came back from Endo. Test is 378 and gave me Clomid

Very interesting concept as relates to the " Adrenal Fatigue " factor. I

have been trying to explain a similar type concern to my Endo, but

didn't know exactly how to put it. I was on AndroGel for 4 weeks (from

my PCP) but now my Endo has stopped the AndroGel for 3 weeks to then run

some tests to see if this is primary or secondary, etc. Of course the

tests are in 3 weeks, so then there's another 2 weeks AFTER that before

he can get me in for an appointment. Anyway, I have had clinical anxiety

since a diagnosis in summer of 2002 and a case of ongoing mild - but

chronic - depression. What test is requested to determine DHEA levels

and Cortisol levels? Isn't there some way other than anti-depression

meds to get the Cortisol levels down? How about increasing the DHEA

levels, would that counter the high Cortisol levels? Didn't Dr. Lee

recommend a compounded mixture of small amounts of DHEA and small

amounts of Progesterone along with required levels of Testosterone in a

compounded cream mixture? Like with thyroid problems, it is quite likely

that adrenal problems are part and parcel of general hormonal imbalances

that lead one to this point???

Larry S.

>Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 09:45:43 -0600

> From: " R D HANCHETTE " <jackhanchette@...>

>Subject: Re: Just came back from Endo. Test is 378 and gave me Clomid

>

>Now comes the bad news. I have not noticed any positive changes in the areas

most needed. My libido is nonexistent and I still experience a lot of fatigue

and depression. In theory having your own body produce good amounts of

testosterone instead of deriving it from external sources should be a good

thing. However, I have heard others on this board suggest that Clomid can make

your lab reports look great without delivering on the performance front. Still,

in my case there might be other factors at work. When I discussed my last lab

reports with my Doctor, the one area that jumped out as a potential problem was

my low DHEA level coupled with a high Cortisol level. He maintains that I will

not experience the benefits of the high testosterone level until I get the

cortisol level down. He is attributing the cortisol level to depression and

recommending that I go on depression meds, which I don't want to do. We both

agree that I am probably suffering from Adrenal Fatigue, which is another area

like hypogonadism that a lot of Doctors are in denial about and really don't

know how to treat. So once again, it is just easier to advise the patient to

start eating depression medication. I would appreciate any advice that this

knowledgeable group can offer. Thanks.

>

August 13, 2004

DHEA aromatizes to estrogen. 7-Keto is another form of DHEA which is

supposed not to aromatize. I take both. My DHEA is 584 and Estradiol is 16.

I don't take Arimidex or similar. More info at

http://www.humaneticscorp.com/7keto/

_____

From: R D HANCHETTE [mailto:jackhanchette@...]

Sent: Friday, August 13, 2004 11:34 AM

Subject: Re: Just came back from Endo. Test is 378 and gave

me Clomid

Yes, I discovered this problem with the DHEA before I started the clomid.

The Doctor that has me on the clomid also has prescribed a topical DHEA

cream to address the DHEA deficiency. It has not worked. In fact my DHEA

has actually gone down since using the cream and also taking 50 mg of DHEA

orally. So go figure. If anyone has any ideas in this whole area of DHEA

deficiency as it relates to adrenal fatigue I would love to hear them.

Thanks.

Just came back from Endo. Test is 378

> and gave me Clomid

> >

> > My Endo says my T was 378 and says it is up but not enough. This

> is

> > as high as it has been in two years. Not sure why it is this

> high.

> > It is usually around 160's He started me on 25 mg of Clomid

> every

> > other day. Does anyone know if this will be enough to get the

> boys

> > pumping? Thanks for all the help and the info regarding my

> apnea

> > etc....

> >

August 14, 2004

Tamoxifen (Nolvadex) doesn't suppress Estrogen at all, by that i mean

it won't lower the E2 level in your body. What it does is block

Estrogen at the breast tissue to help prevent cancer in woman and

Gynecomastia in men.

If you want to suppress estrogen (lower it) you need a drug like

Arimidex but I and a few others have found out that Arimidex doesn't

lower E2 while your taking Clomid, my Dr told me it blocks the E2 on a

different level but I nagged him and we tried it, E2 actually went up

a few points

> > > > I have been on 15 mg of clomid taken on Mondays, Wednesdays,

> and

> > > Fridays since April of this year. I have seen my total T go

> from

> > > the low 300 range to 988 on my last blood 2 weeks ago. So yes,

> in

> > > theory, what you are taking might be enough if you are truly

> > > secondary hypogonadic.

> > > > Just came back from Endo. Test is

> 378

> > > and gave me Clomid

> > > >

> > > > My Endo says my T was 378 and says it is up but not enough.

> > This

> > > is

> > > > as high as it has been in two years. Not sure why it is

> this

> > > high.

> > > > It is usually around 160's He started me on 25 mg of Clomid

> > > every

> > > > other day. Does anyone know if this will be enough to get

> > the

> > > boys

> > > > pumping? Thanks for all the help and the info regarding

> my

> > > apnea

> > > > etc....

> > > >

August 14, 2004

I think your reading what Dr sees in his patients. T from Clomid

is better than exogenous T (drugs). it provides a steady level and is

a natural substance unlike drugs. I think some people don't feel

better because there problems are much more than just low T

> > > I have been on 15 mg of clomid taken on Mondays, Wednesdays,

> and

> > Fridays since April of this year. I have seen my total T go from

> > the low 300 range to 988 on my last blood 2 weeks ago. So yes,

> in

> > theory, what you are taking might be enough if you are truly

> > secondary hypogonadic.

> > > Just came back from Endo. Test is 378

> > and gave me Clomid

> > >

> > > My Endo says my T was 378 and says it is up but not enough.

> This

> > is

> > > as high as it has been in two years. Not sure why it is this

> > high.

> > > It is usually around 160's He started me on 25 mg of Clomid

> > every

> > > other day. Does anyone know if this will be enough to get

> the

> > boys

> > > pumping? Thanks for all the help and the info regarding my

> > apnea

> > > etc....

> > >

August 14, 2004

I have been studing this clomid thing. As I am planning on trying

it after my hcG test, provided my testicles respond to the hcG.

Here is my hypothisis as to why clomid makes you feel different.

Clomid is an estrogen, be it a weak one, but it does bind to the

estrogen receptors. Thus blocking the harsher Estrodial. Although

your testicles are making the same T they always have the extra

estrogen is impacting your mood and such.

Info from the web, forget exactally where, some body building site.

Clomid is a mixed estrogen agonist/antagonist (activator/blocker)

which, when bound to the estrogen receptor, puts it in a somewhat

different conformation (shape) than does estradiol. The estrogen

receptor requires binding of an estrogen or drug at its binding site

and also the binding of any of several cofactors at different sites.

Without the binding of the cofactor, the estrogen receptor is

inactive. Different tissues use different cofactors. Some of these

cofactors are able to bind to the estrogen receptor/Clomid complex,

but others are blocked due to the change in shape. The result is

that in some tissues Clomid acts as an antagonist -- the cofactor

used in that tissue cannot bind and so the receptor remains

inactive -- and in others Clomid acts as an agonist (activator),

because the cofactors used in that tissue are able to bind.

Clomid is an effective antagonist in the hypothalamus and in breast

tissue. It is an effective agonist in bone tissue, and for improving

blood cholesterol.

Clomid also has the property of reducing the adverse effect of

exercise-induced damage of muscle tissue. This is very significant

for endurance athletes but is not very significant, if at all

significant, with reasonable weight training. Clomid does not

perceptibly affect gains of the weight trainer either favorably or

adversely in my experience.

The drug seems to have estrogenic effects on mood, which can be

beneficial (improving relationships with women by improving empathy)

or can yield depression or PMS-like symptoms, but for most users

there is no significant effect either way.

> > > I have been on 15 mg of clomid taken on Mondays, Wednesdays,

> and

> > Fridays since April of this year. I have seen my total T go

from

> > the low 300 range to 988 on my last blood 2 weeks ago. So

yes,

> in

> > theory, what you are taking might be enough if you are truly

> > secondary hypogonadic.

> > > Just came back from Endo. Test is

378

> > and gave me Clomid

> > >

> > > My Endo says my T was 378 and says it is up but not

enough.

> This

> > is

> > > as high as it has been in two years. Not sure why it is

this

> > high.

> > > It is usually around 160's He started me on 25 mg of

Clomid

> > every

> > > other day. Does anyone know if this will be enough to

get

> the

> > boys

> > > pumping? Thanks for all the help and the info regarding

my

> > apnea

> > > etc....

> > >

August 14, 2004

That's very interesting. As I've said, this is not the first time I have heard

that the T produced by the use of clomid may not be all that effective in

delivering real improvement. I have not heard about tongkat ali. Do you know

of a good place to obtain it and/or more information on it?

Just came back from Endo. Test is 378

> and gave me Clomid

> >

> > My Endo says my T was 378 and says it is up but not enough.

This

> is

> > as high as it has been in two years. Not sure why it is this

> high.

> > It is usually around 160's He started me on 25 mg of Clomid

> every

> > other day. Does anyone know if this will be enough to get

the

> boys

> > pumping? Thanks for all the help and the info regarding my

> apnea

> > etc....

> >

August 14, 2004

The AACE guidelines talk about this a bit - they say that clomid

raises T levels but doesn't provide the clinical benefits, or

something to that effect.

If you had adrenal fatigue, wouldn't your cortisol levels be low? Not

sure, but it just seems that way to me.

Mark

August 14, 2004

IMO, effects of Clomid-induced T could differ from effects of direct T

supplementation. Whether or not stimulated by Clomid, I can't see how T

produced by the body could be somehow be chemically different.

BTW, I'm told by my doctor that Clomid also acts as an estrogen blocker.

Bruce

> > > I have been on 15 mg of clomid taken on Mondays, Wednesdays,

> and

> > Fridays since April of this year. I have seen my total T go from

> > the low 300 range to 988 on my last blood 2 weeks ago. So yes,

> in

> > theory, what you are taking might be enough if you are truly

> > secondary hypogonadic.

> > > Just came back from Endo. Test is 378

> > and gave me Clomid

> > >

> > > My Endo says my T was 378 and says it is up but not enough.

> This

> > is

> > > as high as it has been in two years. Not sure why it is this

> > high.

> > > It is usually around 160's He started me on 25 mg of Clomid

> > every

> > > other day. Does anyone know if this will be enough to get

> the

> > boys

> > > pumping? Thanks for all the help and the info regarding my

> > apnea

> > > etc....

> > >

August 14, 2004

In the primary or initial stages of adrenal fatigue DHEA goes down and Cortisol

is markedly elevated. This is the body's reaction to stress. As this process

continues the adrenals pass from fatigue to exhaustion. This is when the

cortisol level plunges as you indicated and then you have additional problems to

address. Where or how can I access the information you referenced in the " AACE

guidelines " . I would very much like to read that.

Re: Just came back from Endo. Test is 378 and gave me

Clomid

The AACE guidelines talk about this a bit - they say that clomid

raises T levels but doesn't provide the clinical benefits, or

something to that effect.

If you had adrenal fatigue, wouldn't your cortisol levels be low? Not

sure, but it just seems that way to me.

Mark

August 14, 2004

I think I read something from Dr. on that, but it could be high

E2 levels as well.

I think you should research tongkat ali, before purchasing it I would

like to know more information on it as well.

http://www.testingtongkatali.com

He has some pretty interesting research on it, but most of the

information on it is based on his experience, but the herb has been

around for centuries from what I've read.

> > > I have been on 15 mg of clomid taken on Mondays,

Wednesdays,

> and

> > Fridays since April of this year. I have seen my total T go

from

> > the low 300 range to 988 on my last blood 2 weeks ago. So

yes,

> in

> > theory, what you are taking might be enough if you are truly

> > secondary hypogonadic.

> > > Just came back from Endo. Test is

378

> > and gave me Clomid

> > >

> > > My Endo says my T was 378 and says it is up but not

enough.

> This

> > is

> > > as high as it has been in two years. Not sure why it is

this

> > high.

> > > It is usually around 160's He started me on 25 mg of

Clomid

> > every

> > > other day. Does anyone know if this will be enough to

get

> the

> > boys

> > > pumping? Thanks for all the help and the info

regarding my

> > apnea

> > > etc....

> > >

August 15, 2004

I believe it is located in the " Links " or " Files section of this group.

Mark

> In the primary or initial stages of adrenal fatigue DHEA goes down

and Cortisol is markedly elevated. This is the body's reaction to

stress. As this process continues the adrenals pass from fatigue to

exhaustion. This is when the cortisol level plunges as you indicated

and then you have additional problems to address. Where or how can I

access the information you referenced in the " AACE guidelines " . I

would very much like to read that.

August 16, 2004

Will TRT improve thyroid function?

In a message dated 8/13/2004 3:09:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

daultman@... writes:

Get your thyroid levels checked also...NOT just TSH, but Free T3 and Free

T4, don't get T3-uptake, it's been replaced by Free T3, but labs still want

to do it for some reason.

Sign In

Just came back from Endo. Test is 378 and gave me Clomid

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