Re: Hormones Improved without Symptoms Improving

April 28, 2004

Hi, Bobby-

If your new endo doesn't know what to do with estrogen in men,

he doesn't know what he doesn't know. I say it's time to find yet

another doctor.

I hope he has a damned good reason for taking you off TRT and

just about crippling you. You went to him specifically to avoid that!

Did you see posts about finding good docs through pellet

manufacturers or compounding pharmacies?

Man, I hope you find what you need.

Best,

Bruce

> > > > > Ask to go to a lab to have your test done, T is lower in

the

> > > > morning

> > > > > so say you want to do it at 7am before the Dr's office

> opens.

> > > > He'll

> > > > > give you a sheet to take to the lab and you can just

check

> > other

> > > > > tests that you want done. So just add Estrodial. I've

added

> > > stuff

> > > > > many time to my tests this way with no problems

> > > > > >

> > > > > > >Hi Tallen,

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >I am not on TRT, Im one of the people who are

suffering

> from

> > > > > Propecia

> > > > > > >Side Effects.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >My endo doesn't believe measuring estradiol, Im

seeing an

> MD

> > > > who's

> > > > > > >also a naturopath tomorrow, I'll ask him to write me

up

> some

> > > new

> > > > > > >blood work.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >My Symptoms:

> > > > > > >Lack of Emotions

> > > > > > >No Ejaculate

> > > > > > >(Only happens during Wet dreams, and that

happens about

> once

> > a

> > > > > month)

> > > > > > >No Sex Drive

> > > > > > >Errections aren't as strong as before

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >I just have no idea what to do right now.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > My opinion:

> > > > > > As high as your T levels are you almost certainly have

high

> > > > > conversion

> > > > > > to E2 (estradiol). Insist your doctor test for it. offer

> to

> > > pay

> > > > for

> > > > > > the Test if you have to.

April 28, 2004

Bill,

Thanks for the link. I've seen that one and printed out several

others. When I went to see my new endo doc he leafed through the

material and immediately started spouting off the health risks of

this one and that one. He blanched when he saw Clomid and it almost

seemed like he was going to puke. His words were " I would never

prescribe that any patient. " . I have this scary notion that this guy

is just going to treat me like a little kid, pat me on the head, tell

me the doctor knows everything there is to know about this and

schedule me for heavier injections. All this information is great

but if the doc won't even look at it or pretends to read it as his

mind's already made up then what good would more data do?

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate all of the links I can get. I just

need to find someone to listen and here in Oregon that is slim

pickings...Thanks for the info.

> > > > > Ask to go to a lab to have your test done, T is lower in the

> > > > morning

> > > > > so say you want to do it at 7am before the Dr's office

> opens.

> > > > He'll

> > > > > give you a sheet to take to the lab and you can just check

> > other

> > > > > tests that you want done. So just add Estrodial. I've

added

> > > stuff

> > > > > many time to my tests this way with no problems

> > > > > >

> > > > > > >Hi Tallen,

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >I am not on TRT, Im one of the people who are suffering

> from

> > > > > Propecia

> > > > > > >Side Effects.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >My endo doesn't believe measuring estradiol, Im seeing an

> MD

> > > > who's

> > > > > > >also a naturopath tomorrow, I'll ask him to write me up

> some

> > > new

> > > > > > >blood work.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >My Symptoms:

> > > > > > >Lack of Emotions

> > > > > > >No Ejaculate

> > > > > > >(Only happens during Wet dreams, and that happens about

> once

> > a

> > > > > month)

> > > > > > >No Sex Drive

> > > > > > >Errections aren't as strong as before

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >I just have no idea what to do right now.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > My opinion:

> > > > > > As high as your T levels are you almost certainly have

high

> > > > > conversion

> > > > > > to E2 (estradiol). Insist your doctor test for it. offer

> to

> > > pay

> > > > for

> > > > > > the Test if you have to.

>

April 28, 2004

That's kind of what I've thought as well - that's why I never minded

getting in tested in the afternoon. Figured it gave a more accurate

picture.

Mark

> They do say T is higher in the morning so you should get it tested

in

> the AM but I'm not sure if I agree with that. Say you mid range

> normal at 7am but low normal or below normal by 2pm, you then spend

> more than 1/2 the day with a low t level.

April 28, 2004

Bruce,

I have a follow-up with him on the 6th but I'm going to call and get

my test results and tell him I'm getting worse not better. There is

a compounding pharmacy here in town. As for pellets, I haven't found

one yet. I'm still trying to find a doc that will look at the whole

picture and not T readings only.

I'm toying with getting a blood test done at the end of this week

from my PCP and see how low he's (the new doc) driven me. At this

point I need to be prepared for what the next step might be.

Thanks for the encouragement Bruce. It does help...

Bobby

> > > > > > Ask to go to a lab to have your test done, T is lower in

> the

> > > > > morning

> > > > > > so say you want to do it at 7am before the Dr's office

> > opens.

> > > > > He'll

> > > > > > give you a sheet to take to the lab and you can just

> check

> > > other

> > > > > > tests that you want done. So just add Estrodial. I've

> added

> > > > stuff

> > > > > > many time to my tests this way with no problems

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >Hi Tallen,

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >I am not on TRT, Im one of the people who are

> suffering

> > from

> > > > > > Propecia

> > > > > > > >Side Effects.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >My endo doesn't believe measuring estradiol, Im

> seeing an

> > MD

> > > > > who's

> > > > > > > >also a naturopath tomorrow, I'll ask him to write me

> up

> > some

> > > > new

> > > > > > > >blood work.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >My Symptoms:

> > > > > > > >Lack of Emotions

> > > > > > > >No Ejaculate

> > > > > > > >(Only happens during Wet dreams, and that

> happens about

> > once

> > > a

> > > > > > month)

> > > > > > > >No Sex Drive

> > > > > > > >Errections aren't as strong as before

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >I just have no idea what to do right now.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > My opinion:

> > > > > > > As high as your T levels are you almost certainly have

> high

> > > > > > conversion

> > > > > > > to E2 (estradiol). Insist your doctor test for it.

offer

> > to

> > > > pay

> > > > > for

> > > > > > > the Test if you have to.

April 28, 2004

Mark,

If your serum T was 117 at 2pm, I think having blood drawn at

any other hour of that day would still show excessively low levels.

Bruce

> > Ask to go to a lab to have your test done, T is lower in the

> morning

> > so say you want to do it at 7am before the Dr's office opens.

April 28, 2004

Yep, opinions are like a**holes!

Believe, I am not being pejorative. I agree that a blood test

alteration/addition/forgery would not constitute " renegade

treatment " , however, I was merely warning the person of what this

type of conduct may be considered. Believe I have injested things

that are " out of plan " . I bet you would agree that having a

knowledgable doctor monitor everything you are doing would be better

than having a unknowledgable doctor being given only part of the

info.

Also, what problem did you have that was Blood tests? You would be

surprised as blood tests are very expensive. I was surprised to find

out that a run of tests normally run on Test issues (Total, Free,

Bioavailable, DHT, E2, etc. etc.) can run over $500 a pop. Granted,

the insurance company probably won't catch you.

Again, I was just warning the guy about altering the form. Not only

may it be a breach of the insuring agreement, it may be against the

law. So, with that said, knowing the risks, do what you so choose.

> > > > > Ask to go to a lab to have your test done, T is lower in

the

> > > > morning

> > > > > so say you want to do it at 7am before the Dr's office

> opens.

> > > > He'll

> > > > > give you a sheet to take to the lab and you can just check

> > other

> > > > > tests that you want done. So just add Estrodial. I've

added

> > > stuff

> > > > > many time to my tests this way with no problems

> > > > > >

> > > > > > >Hi Tallen,

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >I am not on TRT, Im one of the people who are suffering

> from

> > > > > Propecia

> > > > > > >Side Effects.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >My endo doesn't believe measuring estradiol, Im seeing

an

> MD

> > > > who's

> > > > > > >also a naturopath tomorrow, I'll ask him to write me up

> some

> > > new

> > > > > > >blood work.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >My Symptoms:

> > > > > > >Lack of Emotions

> > > > > > >No Ejaculate

> > > > > > >(Only happens during Wet dreams, and that happens about

> once

> > a

> > > > > month)

> > > > > > >No Sex Drive

> > > > > > >Errections aren't as strong as before

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >I just have no idea what to do right now.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > My opinion:

> > > > > > As high as your T levels are you almost certainly have

high

> > > > > conversion

> > > > > > to E2 (estradiol). Insist your doctor test for it. offer

> to

> > > pay

> > > > for

> > > > > > the Test if you have to.

April 28, 2004

I certainly agree. That is why I went out of plan. Fortunately my

blood tests and scripts are covered.

> > > > > Ask to go to a lab to have your test done, T is lower in

the

> > > > morning

> > > > > so say you want to do it at 7am before the Dr's office

> opens.

> > > > He'll

> > > > > give you a sheet to take to the lab and you can just check

> > other

> > > > > tests that you want done. So just add Estrodial. I've

> added

> > > stuff

> > > > > many time to my tests this way with no problems

> > > > > >

> > > > > > >Hi Tallen,

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >I am not on TRT, Im one of the people who are

> suffering from

> > > > > Propecia

> > > > > > >Side Effects.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >My endo doesn't believe measuring estradiol, Im

> seeing an MD

> > > > who's

> > > > > > >also a naturopath tomorrow, I'll ask him to write me up

> some

> > > new

> > > > > > >blood work.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >My Symptoms:

> > > > > > >Lack of Emotions

> > > > > > >No Ejaculate

> > > > > > >(Only happens during Wet dreams, and that happens

> about once

> > a

> > > > > month)

> > > > > > >No Sex Drive

> > > > > > >Errections aren't as strong as before

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >I just have no idea what to do right now.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > My opinion:

> > > > > > As high as your T levels are you almost certainly have

> high

> > > > > conversion

> > > > > > to E2 (estradiol). Insist your doctor test for it. offer

to

> > > pay

> > > > for

> > > > > > the Test if you have to.

April 28, 2004

No worries if you keep everyone in the loop.

> > Ask to go to a lab to have your test done, T is lower in the

> morning

> > so say you want to do it at 7am before the Dr's office opens.

> He'll

> > give you a sheet to take to the lab and you can just check other

> > tests that you want done. So just add Estrodial. I've added

stuff

> > many time to my tests this way with no problems

> > >

> > > >Hi Tallen,

> > > >

> > > >I am not on TRT, Im one of the people who are suffering from

> > Propecia

> > > >Side Effects.

> > > >

> > > >My endo doesn't believe measuring estradiol, Im seeing an MD

> who's

> > > >also a naturopath tomorrow, I'll ask him to write me up some

new

> > > >blood work.

> > > >

> > > >My Symptoms:

> > > >Lack of Emotions

> > > >No Ejaculate

> > > >(Only happens during Wet dreams, and that happens about once a

> > month)

> > > >No Sex Drive

> > > >Errections aren't as strong as before

> > > >

> > > >I just have no idea what to do right now.

> > >

> > > My opinion:

> > > As high as your T levels are you almost certainly have high

> > conversion

> > > to E2 (estradiol). Insist your doctor test for it. offer to pay

> for

> > > the Test if you have to.

>

April 28, 2004

YES, T is highest in the morning.

Armyguy

> > Ask to go to a lab to have your test done, T is lower in the

> morning

> > so say you want to do it at 7am before the Dr's office opens.

April 28, 2004

agreed.

> > > Ask to go to a lab to have your test done, T is lower in the

> > morning

> > > so say you want to do it at 7am before the Dr's office opens.

April 28, 2004

Find another doctor. A close minded doctor will not change. At least

not from my experience. Life becomes WAAAAYYYY better when you find

a doc that already treats hypo. Call local compounding pharmacy and

ask which doctor is prescribing compounded T Gel for men. Go to that

doctor.

Armyguy

> > > > > > Ask to go to a lab to have your test done, T is lower in

the

> > > > > morning

> > > > > > so say you want to do it at 7am before the Dr's office

> > opens.

> > > > > He'll

> > > > > > give you a sheet to take to the lab and you can just

check

> > > other

> > > > > > tests that you want done. So just add Estrodial. I've

> added

> > > > stuff

> > > > > > many time to my tests this way with no problems

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >Hi Tallen,

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >I am not on TRT, Im one of the people who are

suffering

> > from

> > > > > > Propecia

> > > > > > > >Side Effects.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >My endo doesn't believe measuring estradiol, Im

seeing an

> > MD

> > > > > who's

> > > > > > > >also a naturopath tomorrow, I'll ask him to write me

up

> > some

> > > > new

> > > > > > > >blood work.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >My Symptoms:

> > > > > > > >Lack of Emotions

> > > > > > > >No Ejaculate

> > > > > > > >(Only happens during Wet dreams, and that happens

about

> > once

> > > a

> > > > > > month)

> > > > > > > >No Sex Drive

> > > > > > > >Errections aren't as strong as before

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >I just have no idea what to do right now.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > My opinion:

> > > > > > > As high as your T levels are you almost certainly have

> high

> > > > > > conversion

> > > > > > > to E2 (estradiol). Insist your doctor test for it.

offer

> > to

> > > > pay

> > > > > for

> > > > > > > the Test if you have to.

> >

April 28, 2004

I did it once! Endo wouldn't test for estradiol... so I made the

little checkmark.

That endo sucked anyway, got myself a new doctor.

Armyguy

> > > > > > Ask to go to a lab to have your test done, T is lower in

> the

> > > > > morning

> > > > > > so say you want to do it at 7am before the Dr's office

> > opens.

> > > > > He'll

> > > > > > give you a sheet to take to the lab and you can just

check

> > > other

> > > > > > tests that you want done. So just add Estrodial. I've

> added

> > > > stuff

> > > > > > many time to my tests this way with no problems

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >Hi Tallen,

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >I am not on TRT, Im one of the people who are

suffering

> > from

> > > > > > Propecia

> > > > > > > >Side Effects.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >My endo doesn't believe measuring estradiol, Im

seeing

> an

> > MD

> > > > > who's

> > > > > > > >also a naturopath tomorrow, I'll ask him to write me

up

> > some

> > > > new

> > > > > > > >blood work.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >My Symptoms:

> > > > > > > >Lack of Emotions

> > > > > > > >No Ejaculate

> > > > > > > >(Only happens during Wet dreams, and that happens

about

> > once

> > > a

> > > > > > month)

> > > > > > > >No Sex Drive

> > > > > > > >Errections aren't as strong as before

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >I just have no idea what to do right now.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > My opinion:

> > > > > > > As high as your T levels are you almost certainly have

> high

> > > > > > conversion

> > > > > > > to E2 (estradiol). Insist your doctor test for it.

offer

> > to

> > > > pay

> > > > > for

> > > > > > > the Test if you have to.

April 28, 2004

That's a great idea. I hadn't thought about back-tracing it through

a compounding pharmacy. Thanks!

> > > > > > > Ask to go to a lab to have your test done, T is lower

in

> the

> > > > > > morning

> > > > > > > so say you want to do it at 7am before the Dr's office

> > > opens.

> > > > > > He'll

> > > > > > > give you a sheet to take to the lab and you can just

> check

> > > > other

> > > > > > > tests that you want done. So just add Estrodial. I've

> > added

> > > > > stuff

> > > > > > > many time to my tests this way with no problems

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >Hi Tallen,

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >I am not on TRT, Im one of the people who are

> suffering

> > > from

> > > > > > > Propecia

> > > > > > > > >Side Effects.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >My endo doesn't believe measuring estradiol, Im

> seeing an

> > > MD

> > > > > > who's

> > > > > > > > >also a naturopath tomorrow, I'll ask him to write me

> up

> > > some

> > > > > new

> > > > > > > > >blood work.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >My Symptoms:

> > > > > > > > >Lack of Emotions

> > > > > > > > >No Ejaculate

> > > > > > > > >(Only happens during Wet dreams, and that happens

> about

> > > once

> > > > a

> > > > > > > month)

> > > > > > > > >No Sex Drive

> > > > > > > > >Errections aren't as strong as before

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >I just have no idea what to do right now.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > My opinion:

> > > > > > > > As high as your T levels are you almost certainly

have

> > high

> > > > > > > conversion

> > > > > > > > to E2 (estradiol). Insist your doctor test for it.

> offer

> > > to

> > > > > pay

> > > > > > for

> > > > > > > > the Test if you have to.

> > >

April 29, 2004

Phil,

Thanks. That 117 total T was while on androderm patches.

Mark

> Mark if you are on TRT then your levels will be about the same all

day. If you are making your own T. then it is the highest in the

morning.

> Phil

>

April 29, 2004

Bobby,

Good luck on your follow-up. Hope this new doc helps.

If it turns out your guy isn't helping you, and you want to find a

knowledgeable TRT doctor, ask pellet manufacturers Bartor

Pharmacal Co., Rye, NY, 914-967-4219, or College Pharmacy,

Colorado 800-888-9358 who does pellets in your area. I'm not

recommending pellets for you, that's your decision. My theory: if a

doctor does pellet implantation, he's also likely to be highly

knowledgeable about hypogonadism issues, other delivery

methods and successful clinical treatment.

I harp on this issue because I spent too many years with the

wrong doctors. Hope you don't.

Best,

Bruce

> > > > > > > Ask to go to a lab to have your test done, T is lower

in

> > the

> > > > > > morning

> > > > > > > so say you want to do it at 7am before the Dr's office

> > > opens.

> > > > > > He'll

> > > > > > > give you a sheet to take to the lab and you can just

> > check

> > > > other

> > > > > > > tests that you want done. So just add Estrodial. I've

> > added

> > > > > stuff

> > > > > > > many time to my tests this way with no problems

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >Hi Tallen,

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >I am not on TRT, Im one of the people who are

> > suffering

> > > from

> > > > > > > Propecia

> > > > > > > > >Side Effects.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >My endo doesn't believe measuring estradiol, Im

> > seeing an

> > > MD

> > > > > > who's

> > > > > > > > >also a naturopath tomorrow, I'll ask him to write

me

> > up

> > > some

> > > > > new

> > > > > > > > >blood work.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >My Symptoms:

> > > > > > > > >Lack of Emotions

> > > > > > > > >No Ejaculate

> > > > > > > > >(Only happens during Wet dreams, and that

> > happens about

> > > once

> > > > a

> > > > > > > month)

> > > > > > > > >No Sex Drive

> > > > > > > > >Errections aren't as strong as before

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >I just have no idea what to do right now.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > My opinion:

> > > > > > > > As high as your T levels are you almost certainly

have

> > high

> > > > > > > conversion

> > > > > > > > to E2 (estradiol). Insist your doctor test for it.

> offer

> > > to

> > > > > pay

> > > > > > for

> > > > > > > > the Test if you have to.

April 29, 2004

Hi-

Strongly agree. Any endo who doesn't INSIST on including

estradiol in labwork is going to provide bad results. My opinion:

in the 21st century, NO E2 TEST = QUACK.

Bruce

> > > > > > > Ask to go to a lab to have your test done, T is lower

in

> > the

> > > > > > morning

> > > > > > > so say you want to do it at 7am before the Dr's office

> > > opens.

> > > > > > He'll

> > > > > > > give you a sheet to take to the lab and you can just

> check

> > > > other

> > > > > > > tests that you want done. So just add Estrodial. I've

> > added

> > > > > stuff

> > > > > > > many time to my tests this way with no problems

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >Hi Tallen,

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >I am not on TRT, Im one of the people who are

> suffering

> > > from

> > > > > > > Propecia

> > > > > > > > >Side Effects.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >My endo doesn't believe measuring estradiol, Im

> seeing

> > an

> > > MD

> > > > > > who's

> > > > > > > > >also a naturopath tomorrow, I'll ask him to write

me

> up

> > > some

> > > > > new

> > > > > > > > >blood work.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >My Symptoms:

> > > > > > > > >Lack of Emotions

> > > > > > > > >No Ejaculate

> > > > > > > > >(Only happens during Wet dreams, and that

happens

> about

> > > once

> > > > a

> > > > > > > month)

> > > > > > > > >No Sex Drive

> > > > > > > > >Errections aren't as strong as before

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >I just have no idea what to do right now.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > My opinion:

> > > > > > > > As high as your T levels are you almost certainly

have

> > high

> > > > > > > conversion

> > > > > > > > to E2 (estradiol). Insist your doctor test for it.

> offer

> > > to

> > > > > pay

> > > > > > for

> > > > > > > > the Test if you have to.

April 29, 2004

I agree. Unless you are taking AG in the morning AND evening, then

you may be messing with ryhthm.

> > > Ask to go to a lab to have your test done, T is lower in the

> > morning

> > > so say you want to do it at 7am before the Dr's office opens.

April 29, 2004

I have the same prob with my GP. I am hoping my Uro (bro-in-law's childhood

friend) will refer me to a good Endo.

I have sky high DHT & don't know what it means... except that it can cause

the BPH which would explain the prostate pain.

Does'nt explain ED though as far as I know.