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Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 22:34:29 -0500

From: judith <jlk@...>

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milpara <milpara@...>

Subject: Re: Reply To Dr Moran Cancer Surgeon

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Hello,

I don't know who you are but I love your message!! And you must know we think

along similar lines. Cancer - and Hepatitis and MOST other chronic

illnesses and

viruses are a direct result of us destroying our eco-system along with our

immune

systems. What we do to the planet we are doing to ourselves. Our soil, due to

modern day farming, is imbalanced, which produces plants and animals on up

the food

chain that are imbalanced. Add those complications to the harvesting of

unripened

fruits and then over process it all, toss in a bunch of pesticides,

herbicides and

then drink it all down with our contaminated water and wonder why our

fragile bone

marrow is not building healthy stem cells which are the components of our immune

system! There are no CURES to be found in a test tube or pill or any magic

treatment - that is a crazy waste of billions of dollars. The cure is in getting

back to a solid eco-system of BALANCE in all nutrients, healthy soil, pure

water,

proper supply and balance of all minerals and trace elements, vitamins and

antioxidants.... that is the cure to our chronic illnesses. We are all

malnourished

because we have broken the food chain which we were intended to thrive on.

Chronic

disease has increased by over 50% in the past 50 years and the nutrients in our

plants have decreased by that same amount! Even IF (80% do not) we ate the

proper

fruits and vegetables the nutrients within them are so depleated we must

supplement

or our bodies cannot combat the war we have imposed with chemical assaults.

That

is why we continue to have declining health and until we wake up and see

that what

we do to our planet directly impacts our bodies all the research in the

world will

never help us. The good news is.... Darwin... survival of the fittest....

and in

this case the smart ones will wake up to the medical travesty that is going on

across the world and TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR OWN HEALTH! The ones who

don't

see this and fail to make the necessary changes in diet and lifestyle are

going to

die of cancer or virus or who knows what's ahead. Mother Nature's laws do not

change - she gets rid of the the sickly .... Darwin still wins! Often M.D.

appears

to stand for Mis Directed - let's hope they too learn what it really is all

about

for the sake of humankind. So far the truth is not even being offered in any

of the

conventional colleges. That's why I CHOSE ALTERNATIVE SCHOOLS. Conventional

colleges don't even want us to ask the right questions - that way they don't

have

to come up with the answers. Could it be the research dollars from drug companie

might be threatened, or the research dollars from chemicals companies that

poison

our eco-system have greater power than health and wellness? Could it be that

disease is BIG BUSINESS and prevention is not profitable? If we don't wake

up and

begin to develop sustainable eco-agriculture, business that gives back more

than it

takes and clean up our past errors of assult of our planet none of this greed is

going to matter - we are all going to die! Hmmm.....maybe instead of supporting

Cancer Research you should consider teaching (and supporting) the farmers

to farm

organically. Or have your water tested and see how many chemicals your

community

is ingesting which each glass.....because that is what is going to make a

difference - not what is happening now in a " search for a cure " .

Regards - Judith Knilans, M.Sc. (Natural Healing Sciences)

p.s. I am not part of whatever new-groups this is but you are welcome to

share my

message with everyone.

milpara wrote:

> To Dr ,

> Hello again. Thanks for your attempt to discredit some outstanding saviors

> who have won Nobel Prizes and also the great Dr. Johanna Budwig who should

> have received one in Bio Medicine. More later on this ....

>

> , your question in point seem to be that alternative medicine should be

> used after Coneventional Medicine has run its course. In other words, as a

> little brother or distant cousin to the existing methods of the status quo

> in the medidical world as practiced in the USA. The people in this NewsGroup

> seem to reject that notion because of the dismal failure of the Medical

> Profeesion to produce positive figures reference cancer cures. Your own

> figures show that Cancer cure rates in Stage 1, Stage II and Stage IIa, and

> stage IIIa, are not very encouragin:and, what`s striking is that Stage III

> & Stage IV cancers are virtually hopeless when allopathic ( Surgery, Chem,

> Drugs and radiation are used) Please keep in mind that Cancer Cure means 5

> years...to the medical profession, but oftentimes 5 years of misery and

> helpessness to the patients. , with all the Billions of Dollars spent

> on Cancer Research without positive results, you are in an untenable

> position. (Don`t you think so?) People are not fooled anymore and the trend

> is away from allopathic medicine.

>

> Further, the average lifespan of Medical Doctors was quoted as 58. That

> means that American Doctors are dead, on the average, by age 60. Those you

> question have a better record...Dr Linus ing lived to age 93, Dr Johanna

> Budwig is a spry 92, and Dr Warburg lived to 87. By the way, Dr Warburg

> proved that cancer cells thrive in anaroebic(lack of oxygen) conditions

> but die when oxygen is introduced to them, and Dr Linus ing, who won his

> Nobel Prize in Molecular theory, upon which modern medicine, is based, was

> so far advanced in his Vitamin C studies, that your Conventional View Point

> may never catch up. Vitamin C is one of the most important ingredients

> needed for man`s survival that it is enough to say that people with closed

> minds have and will refute this statement.

>

> As to why Dr Johanna Budwig is not recognizes by 'her home countrymen[

> Germany] as a savior... " , you are not correct. She is hailed not only as a

> savior and hero by many of her fellow countrymen/women but also by many

> French people, Italians, Belgians, and other fellow Europeans. Of course,

> there is a strong element against her like the Pharmaceutical,Chemical,

> Unnatural food processors, and the allopathic medical communities because of

> her impact on people. As a Bio Chemist and Scientist she speaks from deep

> research, knowledge and validity assessments. It is strange that these

> groups have repeated brought her to court and have lost everytime! ( German

> courts are not so accomadating to frivilous or unfounded lawsuits). Further,

> many of her detractors go to her or send their relatives to her for

> treatment and after they are cured, continue with their relentless attack.

> It would be naive to say that most people won`t defend their " financial

> turf " especially when they are limited in other prospects or enjoy making

> money. I am not against earning money, but how it is earned is important, too.

>

> Others on this list, like Kathy, feel betrayed by you and your viewpoint

> because they feel you were less than honest in your stated motives. I do not

> feel that way but as a friend told me, (he is 82), ...'this man seems to be

> supporting the old medical line which has run its course'. That man, by the

> way, is a highly respected Priest who has run the gauntlet of Conventional

> Medicine and now is a confirmed believer in alternative medicine.

>

> More to the point. Is there any room or use for conventional doctors? Yes,

> of course. They can run tests (but over 50% of the tests come back wrong

> because of human errors in the laboratories or interpretation!), they can

> diagnose ( but there are so many law suits against the medical profession

> for malpractice that it is necessary to raise medical costs to pay for

> them.) Can doctors set bones? Yes. Can doctors advise on nutrition,... not

> really since most never study it and don`t have either the time or

> inclination to do so. (it reminds me of a joke... " Don`t confuse me with the

> facts, my mind is already made up...). Emergy room treatment? Yes, but

> Venture In at your own peril since mostly inexperience doctors are on duty.

> What`s more, over 2 million people caught infectious diseases in hospitals

> in 1998, with over 80,000 dying from variuos hospital infections. ,

> what I have stated is found in the daily press or in books readily

> available. If your research, the parameters of which you have never stated,

> or what group(s) is/are supporting this research, or where your funding is

> coming from, is genuine, then you would ask simple questions and give simple

> answers. You do not seem to have done this so far.

>

> What caught me eye is that you stated that about 50% of your cancer

> patients (private practice?) survive(paraphrased) but you do not tell how

> many this is or where they are treated or what is the hospital/city used, or

> over what period of time or what type cancers they have or when did you

> conduct the research.

>

> It is unfortunete that most surgeons believe that by removing body parts or

> the symptom(s), that they can cure cancer. No one can cure cancer but the

> patient himself. The immune system and the lymphatic system must be healthy

> and work well before anyone can be cured. Body part removal does not seem to

> support this. In fact, find the cause and a cure may be possible. But that

> means eating the correct foods, decreasing tension and stress, finding peace

> of mind and happiness. Above all, it means depending on yourself to get

> healthy and maintaining good health. Can/will surgeons advise on this?

> Perhaps but highly unlikely.

>

> As a last point ,, until the whole frame of reference of how we view

> illness and how to approch it is changed we will always be a sick nation of

> people. Progress doesn`t mean always charging ahead. Sometimes we must stop

> and take stock of where we are, what we are doing and what we should do to

> make ourselves and other people happy. Mental and spiritual values are

> important to good health,too. ( Read Dr Weil,MD.) Yes, there is a

> place for surgeons and other conventional doctors but not to the extent that

> they are used today. It was quoted by a doctor that [paraphrased] ...we

> need doctors only 20% of the time...not how we have misused them or the

> health insurance system. Have we given up on our own ability to take charge

> of our health?

>

> I certainly admire your courage, , to try to ascertain the mood of

> this NewGroup and to see what the opinions are against/for surgery in cancer

> patients/cases and I sincerely hope that you can report your findings to

> people who will listen and will try to reform and improve surgical

> practices. You are well aware that there is a movement " To Regulate

> Surgery " in the USA. The FDA is mentioned as the Agency to do so but I don`t

> see this happening anytime soon. Surgeons must reform themselves or the

> handwriting is on the wall for them as well as for allopathic doctors with

> closed minds.. It is sad that American Medicine has gone off the track of

> traditional historical doctors/healers like Hippocrates, the Founder of

> Medicine who believed in treating the whole not the part. (Reminds you of

> your Geometry where Euclid said, " The whole is made up of the sums of its

> parts " ). I close with Pesident Lincoln`s saying

> " You can fool some of the people some of the time, but not all of the

> people, all of the time. " This reflects the mood of many people in today`s

> society. I hope it helps, , and good luck to you and the list. Regards,

> Mike Cinelli

>

> At 05:24 PM 04/16/2000 +1000, you wrote:

> >

> >> Message: 3

> >> Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 23:12:11 +0800

> >> From: milpara <milpara@...>

> >> Subject: Re: Quality of advice, Lorraine Day, and other matters

> >>

> >> Hello Dr Moran,

> >> Your explanation is good for the stadard surgeon`s viewpoint,

> >> but leaves a

> >> lot to be desired when you venture into alternative medicine. If

> >> you want to

> >> remove tumors and rid the body of cancer, you will have to do a

> >> lot better

> >> than what you have stated with your knowledge of alternative medicine. I

> >> will refer to to mainstream alternative medicine, that is, to Dr Johanna

> >> Budwig,Ph.D, famed German Biochemist, Scientist and humanitarian who has

> >> saved many people from " doorstep deaths " after " traditional " doctors had

> >> given up on them. With I might caution you to be aware that she has been

> >> nominated for the Nobel Prize seven times and is no light weight. In fact,

> >> she has carried on her fight against misinformation, disinformation,

> >> valueless modern food manufacturing processes and the

> >> medico-pharmaco-chemico self interest groups that continually

> >> thrive on the

> >> uninformed.

> >>snip<

> >

> >Thanks for your viewpoint, Mike.

> >

> >You haven't addressed the point I have tried to introduce into this

> >newsgroup. One can allow that alternative treatments have value as an

> >addition to normal treatment, and that some of them will work alone some of

> >the time, without accepting the proposition that they are wise as the first

> >line of treatment in likely curable cancer. It is just too risky a

> >decision on the information available about alternatives, including that

> >available from Ms Budwig, unless you believe her treatment works 100% of the

> >time. She claims to have the answer to cancer but it would be difficult for

> >anyone to hide a success rate like this, and her home country doesn't seem

> >to be hailing her as mankind's saviour. Incidentally, even actual Nobel

> >Prize winners can be wrong when they try to extrapolate from the laboratory

> >into clinical medicine. To mention just two, Warburg was wrong when he said

> >cancer was due to oxygen lack from his work on tissue slices, and no one

> >these days relies simply on megadoses of Vitamin C for their cancer (Linus

> >ing).

> >

> >It has been implied here that it is a matter of choice. Well, I can also

> >agree that conventional treatments are not as nice as most alternative

> >treatments. But how often do they work? There is no real " choice " without

> >full informed consent as to what the likely relative cure rates are, unless

> >you are a gambler. It is obvious no one has this kind of information for

> >any alternative modality.

> >

> >Yes, you have the right to make up your own mind and reject my world view.

> >But my presence here is as a representative of people who usually do like to

> >look at things in the terms expressed above -- ie my cancer patients.

> >

> >They invariably want two things: " tell me the truth, doctor " , and " what are

> >my chances? " . I suggest, and have demonstrated, that alternative medicine

> >is often loose with the truth in the propaganda it spreads around about

> >conventional treatments. Yet nearly all my patients encounter, and are

> >distressed by, the disproportionate amount of such on the Internet and the

> >vitriolic way much of it is expressed. Why is this? Is the position of

> >alternatives weak enough that it needs to be bolstered by such tactics as

> >the lie, explicitly expressed on some alternative sites, that conventional

> >treatments hardly ever work?

> >

> >Where else should I go but to the source to express concern about such

> >issues, to challenge that which is wrong and offensive, and to encourage a

> >little more temperance and caution with the views that AM is promulgating?

> >

> >The second concern of my cancer patients - " will I live? " -- is the most

> >nail-biting question they will ever ask in their lives. In Medicine we have

> >enough information about different types of cancer and the effects of our

> >treatments to say " yes " in many instances and give percentages for others.

> >Overall we cure 50% of all cancers (yes, you can say this is not great, but

> >I still say compared to what?) and have a 90-100 per cent success rate with

> >many early common cancers.

> >

> >To be trying to systematically turn people against proven treatments without

> >evidence that alternatives work better is ----- well, I do hope you are

> >beginning to understand my position.

> >

> >Regards

> >

> > Moran

> >.

> >

> >

> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

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