Using ALA with high copper levels - is it safe?

[Guest guest]

Hello - We've been chelating our son, using 12.5mg DMSA for about 8

rounds and then adding ALA for about 6 rounds. We started chelation

due to a urine challenge test as per our DAN and my son showed high

lead, no mercury, as it could have been suppressed by the lead.

Recently, we did a hair test from Direct Labs and it showed slightly

elevated lead and mercury, but copper levels were off the charts!

Should I continue to use ALA with DMSA or not use ALA at all as it

inhibits copper excretion?? We actually did not notice improvement

in my son during the last few rounds of chelation, but he did get

more yeasty symptoms. I figure we might be going through a " plateau "

as discussed here previously and we'll need just need to continue

with chelation and then improvements will be seen again after the

plateau period. But now with the high copper levels, I am really

concerned.

For the parents using ALA alone, were copper levels checked in their

children? We are seeing our DAN in about three weeks so we'll ask

him then, but in the meantime, what have other DANs said about high

copper levels and ALA chelation?

I had posted previously, and thank you Dave for responding. I

checked onibasu archives, but couldn't find what Andy suggested about

ALA and high copper. I'm hoping someone could post the info here.

Thanks!

[Guest guest]

Did the hair test meet counting rules??

If it did, then the copper is not accurate and should be verified by

with red blood cell elements testing. I would do that before getting

too worried. If the test did not meet rules, it's possible that

mercury is causing him to have high copper. Again, verify by blood

testing...

Next thing: does your child swim? Pool algaecides contain copper and

will soak into the hair and remain there. If he has been in a pool or

hot tub....this could be the reason for high hair copper.

I would always verify high copper by red cell testing before assuming

he is a high copper kid. All that copper coming out in his hair, may

in fact mean he's not high at all, but dumping all of it. What's in

hair is what is coming out of us in a three month time frame.

If I recall what Andy said was to use molybdenum and zinc and large

amounts of vitamin c to help lower copper levels an hinder absorption

and to chelate which will help them come down as well.

What is says in Amalgam Illness about copper:

liver function is important in excreting it. Are you using milk

thistle? And to take the supplements listed above. It also says that

you not want to use ala alone for more than half the time chelating

because that would raise copper a lot. Your using dmsa..so probably

not an issue. He doesn't say not to use ala. Just not to use it alone.

This may have changes since then...

While I don't have confirmation on my levels, I suspect I had some

what of a copper problem, and I took molybdenum and zinc daily for a

bout a year and saw the symptoms that look liked copper go away. So it

does help.

This post says if his blood copper comes back high to use ala only a

few times a month and make sure to be taking zinc and molybdenum a few

times a day. Again, need to verify by blood before doing all that.

http://onibasu.com/archives/am/17240.html

Not noticing improvements happens. Hang in there. Hope this helps!

>

> Hello - We've been chelating our son, using 12.5mg DMSA for about 8

> rounds and then adding ALA for about 6 rounds. We started chelation

> due to a urine challenge test as per our DAN and my son showed high

> lead, no mercury, as it could have been suppressed by the lead.

>

> Recently, we did a hair test from Direct Labs and it showed slightly

> elevated lead and mercury, but copper levels were off the charts!

> Should I continue to use ALA with DMSA or not use ALA at all as it

> inhibits copper excretion?? We actually did not notice improvement

> in my son during the last few rounds of chelation, but he did get

> more yeasty symptoms. I figure we might be going through a " plateau "

> as discussed here previously and we'll need just need to continue

> with chelation and then improvements will be seen again after the

> plateau period. But now with the high copper levels, I am really

> concerned.

>

> For the parents using ALA alone, were copper levels checked in their

> children? We are seeing our DAN in about three weeks so we'll ask

> him then, but in the meantime, what have other DANs said about high

> copper levels and ALA chelation?

>

> I had posted previously, and thank you Dave for responding. I

> checked onibasu archives, but couldn't find what Andy suggested about

> ALA and high copper. I'm hoping someone could post the info here.

>

> Thanks!

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Jada,

Thank you for your quick response. I forgot to mention that we did a

blood test for copper levels too and it did come back high, just

slightly out of the reference range though. My son's copper levels

were 1.55 ug/mL (ref 0.75-1.45 ug/mL), so I guess it confirms that

his copper is high.

We were using milk thistle, but is now using Liver Life instead. So

to confirm what you said about using ALA only half of the time.. if

I'm chelating every weekend 3 day on/4 days off with DMSA, then I

should add in ALA every other weekend instead of every weekend? Or

can I use DMSA/ALA all the time, just not ALA alone?

Thanks!

> >

> > Hello - We've been chelating our son, using 12.5mg DMSA for about

8

> > rounds and then adding ALA for about 6 rounds. We started

chelation

> > due to a urine challenge test as per our DAN and my son showed

high

> > lead, no mercury, as it could have been suppressed by the lead.

> >

> > Recently, we did a hair test from Direct Labs and it showed

slightly

> > elevated lead and mercury, but copper levels were off the

charts!

> > Should I continue to use ALA with DMSA or not use ALA at all as

it

> > inhibits copper excretion?? We actually did not notice

improvement

> > in my son during the last few rounds of chelation, but he did get

> > more yeasty symptoms. I figure we might be going through

a " plateau "

> > as discussed here previously and we'll need just need to continue

> > with chelation and then improvements will be seen again after the

> > plateau period. But now with the high copper levels, I am really

> > concerned.

> >

> > For the parents using ALA alone, were copper levels checked in

their

> > children? We are seeing our DAN in about three weeks so we'll

ask

> > him then, but in the meantime, what have other DANs said about

high

> > copper levels and ALA chelation?

> >

> > I had posted previously, and thank you Dave for responding. I

> > checked onibasu archives, but couldn't find what Andy suggested

about

> > ALA and high copper. I'm hoping someone could post the info here.

> >

> > Thanks!

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I am hoping another mom with a copper kid can advise you better on how

often to use ala or to wait. If he were mine I'd try a round and see

what happens. I would just be sure he was on molybdenum and zinc as

per Andy's supplements. I am inclined to think from what I read of

Andy's books, that using the ala on occasion is better than using it

every time. At least until his copper comes down a bit. Because it's a

bit elevate but this might be from the mercury. It's not terrible high

either so as you said. Some ala...maybe every other round or every

third round...

Liver life is fine, I think it has milk thistle.

> > >

> > > Hello - We've been chelating our son, using 12.5mg DMSA for about

> 8

> > > rounds and then adding ALA for about 6 rounds. We started

> chelation

> > > due to a urine challenge test as per our DAN and my son showed

> high

> > > lead, no mercury, as it could have been suppressed by the lead.

> > >

> > > Recently, we did a hair test from Direct Labs and it showed

> slightly

> > > elevated lead and mercury, but copper levels were off the

> charts!

> > > Should I continue to use ALA with DMSA or not use ALA at all as

> it

> > > inhibits copper excretion?? We actually did not notice

> improvement

> > > in my son during the last few rounds of chelation, but he did get

> > > more yeasty symptoms. I figure we might be going through

> a " plateau "

> > > as discussed here previously and we'll need just need to continue

> > > with chelation and then improvements will be seen again after the

> > > plateau period. But now with the high copper levels, I am really

> > > concerned.

> > >

> > > For the parents using ALA alone, were copper levels checked in

> their

> > > children? We are seeing our DAN in about three weeks so we'll

> ask

> > > him then, but in the meantime, what have other DANs said about

> high

> > > copper levels and ALA chelation?

> > >

> > > I had posted previously, and thank you Dave for responding. I

> > > checked onibasu archives, but couldn't find what Andy suggested

> about

> > > ALA and high copper. I'm hoping someone could post the info here.

> > >

> > > Thanks!

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Someone has put together a decent, and more recent wiki based on the

onibasu archives of autism treatment.

Here is the section on copper:

http://onibasu.com/wiki/Cutler_protocol#Treating_copper

Here is the main page:

http://onibasu.com/wiki/Autism_Mercury

I think adding more zinc and molybdenum are the common suggestions to

help avoid high copper. In one of the postings in the copper section,

there is an interesting discussion about how Zinc helps increase

metallothionein which should help...

Best of luck.

>

> Hello - We've been chelating our son, using 12.5mg DMSA for about 8

> rounds and then adding ALA for about 6 rounds. We started chelation

> due to a urine challenge test as per our DAN and my son showed high

> lead, no mercury, as it could have been suppressed by the lead.

>

> Recently, we did a hair test from Direct Labs and it showed slightly

> elevated lead and mercury, but copper levels were off the charts!

> Should I continue to use ALA with DMSA or not use ALA at all as it

> inhibits copper excretion?? We actually did not notice improvement

> in my son during the last few rounds of chelation, but he did get

> more yeasty symptoms. I figure we might be going through a " plateau "

> as discussed here previously and we'll need just need to continue

> with chelation and then improvements will be seen again after the

> plateau period. But now with the high copper levels, I am really

> concerned.

>

> For the parents using ALA alone, were copper levels checked in their

> children? We are seeing our DAN in about three weeks so we'll ask

> him then, but in the meantime, what have other DANs said about high

> copper levels and ALA chelation?

>

> I had posted previously, and thank you Dave for responding. I

> checked onibasu archives, but couldn't find what Andy suggested about

> ALA and high copper. I'm hoping someone could post the info here.

>

> Thanks!

>

[Guest guest]

We were able to reduce my son's copper load in hair and blood with 30

mgs zinc and molybdenum (can't recall how much, but it wasn't a

ton). Both went down in to the normal range within 3 months. Blood

levels were more elevated than what you describe but hair was not as

high.

I didn't see any behavior changes from the reduction.

I wasn't using ALA at the time. I think you could either stop ALA

for a few months while addressing copper or perhaps use ALA every

other weekend while working to get the copper load down.

Pam

>

> Hello - We've been chelating our son, using 12.5mg DMSA for about 8

> rounds and then adding ALA for about 6 rounds. We started

chelation

> due to a urine challenge test as per our DAN and my son showed high

> lead, no mercury, as it could have been suppressed by the lead.

>

> Recently, we did a hair test from Direct Labs and it showed

slightly

> elevated lead and mercury, but copper levels were off the charts!

> Should I continue to use ALA with DMSA or not use ALA at all as it

> inhibits copper excretion?? We actually did not notice improvement

> in my son during the last few rounds of chelation, but he did get

> more yeasty symptoms. I figure we might be going through

a " plateau "

> as discussed here previously and we'll need just need to continue

> with chelation and then improvements will be seen again after the

> plateau period. But now with the high copper levels, I am really

> concerned.

>

> For the parents using ALA alone, were copper levels checked in

their

> children? We are seeing our DAN in about three weeks so we'll ask

> him then, but in the meantime, what have other DANs said about high

> copper levels and ALA chelation?

>

> I had posted previously, and thank you Dave for responding. I

> checked onibasu archives, but couldn't find what Andy suggested

about

> ALA and high copper. I'm hoping someone could post the info here.

>

> Thanks!

>

[Guest guest]

From HTI on Copper protocol:

Zn at every meal, along with Mo (1-3mg/d), taurine, glycine, milk thistle &

lecithin.

Restrict high copper foods, particularly nuts.

Check cysteine & sulfate, as with Hg.

Explore Gall bladder/ Billiary Tract disease.

If 's disease: Penacillamine bad side effects. Trientine HCl better.

If Cu> 75, restrict ALA somewhat:

75-125 1 day on, 2 off. >125 1 day on, 3 off.

Dave.

-------------------

Posted by: " lvtoeat2 " lvtoeat2@... lvtoeat2

Date: Wed May 21, 2008 7:16 pm ((PDT))

Hello - We've been chelating our son, using 12.5mg DMSA for about 8

rounds and then adding ALA for about 6 rounds. We started chelation

due to a urine challenge test as per our DAN and my son showed high

lead, no mercury, as it could have been suppressed by the lead.

Recently, we did a hair test from Direct Labs and it showed slightly

elevated lead and mercury, but copper levels were off the charts!

Should I continue to use ALA with DMSA or not use ALA at all as it

inhibits copper excretion?? We actually did not notice improvement

in my son during the last few rounds of chelation, but he did get

more yeasty symptoms. I figure we might be going through a " plateau "

as discussed here previously and we'll need just need to continue

with chelation and then improvements will be seen again after the

plateau period. But now with the high copper levels, I am really

concerned.

For the parents using ALA alone, were copper levels checked in their

children? We are seeing our DAN in about three weeks so we'll ask

him then, but in the meantime, what have other DANs said about high

copper levels and ALA chelation?

I had posted previously, and thank you Dave for responding. I

checked onibasu archives, but couldn't find what Andy suggested about

ALA and high copper. I'm hoping someone could post the info here.

Thanks!

[Guest guest]

Jada. Small error. Andy is saying that red high copper is significant, even

with disordered mineral transport.

Also, Cu only acts in a contrary-wise fashion when it is _low_. ie high in

hair means high in the body, low in hair could be high or low in the body.

Since the copper protocol can get it down so quickly (2-3 months), I don't

think there is a reason to confirm with blood testing. The only reason to

confirm, would be to see if it is _low_, because in that case you need to

supplement, and if done in error that might create copper tox symptoms.

Dave.

-------------

Posted by: " Jada " paxlforme@... paxlforme

Date: Wed May 21, 2008 7:48 pm ((PDT))

Did the hair test meet counting rules??

If it did, then the copper is not accurate and should be verified by

with red blood cell elements testing. I would do that before getting

too worried. If the test did not meet rules, it's possible that

mercury is causing him to have high copper. Again, verify by blood

testing...

Next thing: does your child swim? Pool algaecides contain copper and

will soak into the hair and remain there. If he has been in a pool or

hot tub....this could be the reason for high hair copper.

I would always verify high copper by red cell testing before assuming

he is a high copper kid. All that copper coming out in his hair, may

in fact mean he's not high at all, but dumping all of it. What's in

hair is what is coming out of us in a three month time frame.

If I recall what Andy said was to use molybdenum and zinc and large

amounts of vitamin c to help lower copper levels an hinder absorption

and to chelate which will help them come down as well.

What is says in Amalgam Illness about copper:

liver function is important in excreting it. Are you using milk

thistle? And to take the supplements listed above. It also says that

you not want to use ala alone for more than half the time chelating

because that would raise copper a lot. Your using dmsa..so probably

not an issue. He doesn't say not to use ala. Just not to use it alone.

This may have changes since then...

While I don't have confirmation on my levels, I suspect I had some

what of a copper problem, and I took molybdenum and zinc daily for a

bout a year and saw the symptoms that look liked copper go away. So it

does help.

This post says if his blood copper comes back high to use ala only a

few times a month and make sure to be taking zinc and molybdenum a few

times a day. Again, need to verify by blood before doing all that.

http://onibasu.com/archives/am/17240.html

Not noticing improvements happens. Hang in there. Hope this helps!

[Guest guest]

We've had copper issues. Try adding 1000 mgs moly in divided doses,

enough zinc with each meal, and only use ALA gently until copper is

down. I think it takes about 3 months for copper to come into normal

range.

Anne

> > > >

> > > > Hello - We've been chelating our son, using 12.5mg DMSA for

about

> > 8

> > > > rounds and then adding ALA for about 6 rounds. We started

> > chelation

> > > > due to a urine challenge test as per our DAN and my son

showed

> > high

> > > > lead, no mercury, as it could have been suppressed by the

lead.

> > > >

> > > > Recently, we did a hair test from Direct Labs and it showed

> > slightly

> > > > elevated lead and mercury, but copper levels were off the

> > charts!

> > > > Should I continue to use ALA with DMSA or not use ALA at all

as

> > it

> > > > inhibits copper excretion?? We actually did not notice

> > improvement

> > > > in my son during the last few rounds of chelation, but he did

get

> > > > more yeasty symptoms. I figure we might be going through

> > a " plateau "

> > > > as discussed here previously and we'll need just need to

continue

> > > > with chelation and then improvements will be seen again after

the

> > > > plateau period. But now with the high copper levels, I am

really

> > > > concerned.

> > > >

> > > > For the parents using ALA alone, were copper levels checked

in

> > their

> > > > children? We are seeing our DAN in about three weeks so

we'll

> > ask

> > > > him then, but in the meantime, what have other DANs said

about

> > high

> > > > copper levels and ALA chelation?

> > > >

> > > > I had posted previously, and thank you Dave for responding.

I

> > > > checked onibasu archives, but couldn't find what Andy

suggested

> > about

> > > > ALA and high copper. I'm hoping someone could post the info

here.

> > > >

> > > > Thanks!

> > > >

> > >

> >

>