Porphyrin results and hair test results - Dave

[Guest guest]

Hi Dave. Thanks for your input.

As to the porphyrin results, the heptacarboxyporphyrin result (nmol/g

creatinine) was 6.6 with a red H next to same. The 95 percent

reference interval was less than = 7.0. The Hexacaboxyporphyrin was

1.6 also with a red H next to same, with the 95 percent reference

interval, less than =1.4. I see what you are saying, however, the

interpretation part of the report stated that these are " elevated " and

that these elevations indicate the toxic effects of arsenic or certain

" organotoxins " , and they also stated that the elevations tend to be

these toxins, in light of the fact that his uroporphyrin I and III are

not elevated.

Also with regard to Coproporphyrin III, it is listed as 223 with a red

H, although the 95 percent reference interval is less than = 234. The

interpretation part says that the elevation of coproporphyrin III may

be " associated with the toxic effects of lead. " What do you make of this?

As to the hair test:

I count only one in the red zone, cobalt, and not two, with zinc at

the borderline, as well as copper not too far behind.

I supplement my son with about 15-20mg daily of zinc, between his

multi mineral from brainchild nutritionals, and a separate supplement

before bed. Our doc was concerned I was giving him too much.

However, when I lessened the supplement, I noticed taste aversion

returned and he would not eat, so I left it at the 15-20mg range, is

this too much in light of the hair test results? Or is he " wasting " it?

I have read about the copper protocol a bit. I give my son zinc

already, as I stated, and he gets molybdenum, about 100mcg per day in

his multi mineral from brainchild nutritionals. Does he need more

than this? Also, he takes an herbal tincture from this company that

has milk thistle and other herbs directed specifically at liver

support in therapeutic doses. Also the BCN vitamins contain lower,

less therapeutic levels, of these same herbs, so he is getting liver

support, I think. Does he require more by way of a separate milk

thistle supplement?

As to B6, I tried P5P several months back at the beginning of biomed,

along with magnesium. He was a crazy maniac running in circles, so I

stopped it. Since then, we have a better supplement regimen. I am

starting to give him a brainchild formula with a higher B6 content,

but he is getting about 18mg per day of P5P. Would you be meaning

that he should get more beyond this? I know J. McCandless recommends

up to 50mg per day for kids his age with magnesium. I just don't know

if he is one who can't tolerate it or not. I suppose a brief trial of

a higher B6 would be my answer? What do you think? Also, what

specifically would B6 do for him in regard to zinc?

As to the lack of adrenaline, he loves red meat, and eats a fair

amount of it, as to dairy he gets a calcium supplement of 250mg per

day, beyond fortified milk substitutes. I gave him TMG in high does in

the past with folinic acid, with scary results. Out of control

tantruming, heart palpitations. He is getting about 100mg of the TMG

in his multi and about 350 mcg of folinic acid. I have started

supplementing with another 400 mcg of the folinic acid at night too.

But I am afraid to give additional TMG, although I have read that

sometimes taurine is necessary for some kids to process the TMG

properly. As to B12, we have corresponded about this before. We are

about to give the injections a try, perhaps a little lower than the

Neubrander protocol calls for, since the oral will be next to

impossible with him.

As to the adrenal support, I will have to research how this is dealt

with in kids.

Are you saying Dave, that we should do the copper protocol, and not

chelate until this is dealt with? Isn't it true that DMSA brings the

copper level down? I hate the thought of waiting 4 more months before

chelating. Do you think the copper is hiding other toxic metals?

Thanks. Irene

[Guest guest]

Posted by: " iflow97 " iflow97@... iflow97

Date: Tue May 27, 2008 9:15 am ((PDT))

>Hi Dave. Thanks for your input.

>As to the porphyrin results, the heptacarboxyporphyrin result (nmol/g

creatinine) was 6.6 with a red H next to same. The 95 percent

reference interval was less than = 7.0. The Hexacaboxyporphyrin was

1.6 also with a red H next to same, with the 95 percent reference

interval, less than =1.4. I see what you are saying, however, the

interpretation part of the report stated that these are " elevated " and

that these elevations indicate the toxic effects of arsenic or certain

" organotoxins " , and they also stated that the elevations tend to be

these toxins, in light of the fact that his uroporphyrin I and III are

not elevated.

>Also with regard to Coproporphyrin III, it is listed as 223 with a red

H, although the 95 percent reference interval is less than = 234. The

interpretation part says that the elevation of coproporphyrin III may

be " associated with the toxic effects of lead. " What do you make of this?

I see. Remember I told you that I don't have a lot of experience with this,

but I do believe that what you want here are the norms and that elevations are

significant when they are 2 to 3 times the normal range. Why don't you repost

the results with the norms included. Best if you have a scanned version of the

test, so I can see the whole thing.

>As to the hair test:

>I count only one in the red zone, cobalt, and not two, with zinc at

the borderline, as well as copper not too far behind.

Often those bars are off and I have to go and look at the norms that tell me

what the number actually is for the 97.5 percentile. I just checked again -

copper at 30 is right on the border of yellow red, exactly 2 standard

deviations away from normal, so there are 2 reds with Zinc close.

>I supplement my son with about 15-20mg daily of zinc, between his

multi mineral from brainchild nutritionals, and a separate supplement

before bed. Our doc was concerned I was giving him too much.

I know, it seems a lot. We did check in with Andy on this, and he was

definitely suggesting 20mg + 1mg/lb bodyweight. I'll admit that that was in

the context of someone mercury poisoned, and while that appears a possibility

here (since mercury is pretty low) we're still not sure....

Let's see - here is what he says in HTI p.260: " Zinc is particularly confusing

for most people because you take more zinc whether it is high or low. The only

time you don't take more zinc is if it is normal AND mineral transport is

orderly. "

" In the presence of very obviously normal and orderly mineral transport (not

just that it doesn't meet the counting rules but that it really is very normal)

there is some possibility of elevated hair zinc really meaning that the body

levels of zinc are elevated. In this situation either a 24 hour urine test or

a red blood cell zinc (or red blood cell or erythrocyte element test) will

resolve the ambiguity between high and low. "

" In the rare cases of high body zinc (as confirmed by red blood cell testing),

it may be reduced by an increased intake of copper, iron, phosphate, calcium,

and fiber. "

" In mercury toxicity (which means when mineral transport is deranged or mercury

is otherwise believed to be a problem) absorption of zinc is severely impaired

and very high amounts are needed. For children the amount to use is weight in

pounds + 20 (in mil;ligrams). For adults, use 100-200 mg a day in divided

doses. Also, do not include any copper with this. Supplementation at this

level would result in copper deficiency and zinc toxicity in a normal healthy

person, but will not do so in someone with mercury deranged mineral transport

and in fact is necessary to get their zinc up and their copper down to

somewhere near average. There is some inaccurate information regarding this in

the `natural medicine' community ... Any practitioner with such beliefs (the

need for copper with zinc, the need to limit zinc intake) can easily dispel

them by ordering some red blood cell/erythrocyte element tests on their

patients with deranged mineral transport. "

Ok, so I think it very likely that your son's elevated zinc indicates that he

needs more, but if you are worried, then you have a blood test to check.

I'm also checking in AI p.66. This might be useful: " Copper absorption can be

reduced by excluding high copper foods, scrupulously avoiding copper

supplements, and taking 10-30mg of zinc and 250-1000 mcg of molybdenum with

each meal. Vi8tamin D supplements may increase metallothionein formation and

thus copper excretion. Selenium supplements may increase the binding of copper

to metallothionein which sequesters it safely inside the cells. "

>However, when I lessened the supplement, I noticed taste aversion

returned and he would not eat, so I left it at the 15-20mg range, is

this too much in light of the hair test results? Or is he " wasting " it?

Read above. It appears that high or low, you should supplement when there is

some indication of a mercury problem, which we are not totally clear about yet,

I admit.

>I have read about the copper protocol a bit. I give my son zinc

already, as I stated, and he gets molybdenum, about 100mcg per day in

his multi mineral from brainchild nutritionals. Does he need more

than this?

It looks like 250 makes sense.

>Also, he takes an herbal tincture from this company that

has milk thistle and other herbs directed specifically at liver

support in therapeutic doses. Also the BCN vitamins contain lower,

less therapeutic levels, of these same herbs, so he is getting liver

support, I think. Does he require more by way of a separate milk

thistle supplement?

If he gets it with each meal, then that's probably ok... The point is to make

sure the is making bile. Watch his poops. If they are not nice and brown or

even green, if they start to turn straw color, then he needs more liver support.

>As to B6, I tried P5P several months back at the beginning of biomed,

along with magnesium. He was a crazy maniac running in circles, so I

stopped it.

That was the right thing to do.

>Since then, we have a better supplement regimen. I am

starting to give him a brainchild formula with a higher B6 content,

but he is getting about 18mg per day of P5P. Would you be meaning

that he should get more beyond this? I know J. McCandless recommends

up to 50mg per day for kids his age with magnesium. I just don't know

if he is one who can't tolerate it or not. I suppose a brief trial of

a higher B6 would be my answer? What do you think?

Sound like you tried it already ... of course, it could have been something

_else_ in the supp that was causing the problem.

>Also, what specifically would B6 do for him in regard to zinc?

I dont' know, that's Andy's recommendation, and it will have something to do

with what the body needs to use the zinc.

>As to the lack of adrenaline, he loves red meat, and eats a fair

amount of it, as to dairy he gets a calcium supplement of 250mg per

day, beyond fortified milk substitutes. I gave him TMG in high does in

the past with folinic acid, with scary results. Out of control

tantruming, heart palpitations.

Ya, he got too much.

>He is getting about 100mg of the TMG

in his multi and about 350 mcg of folinic acid. I have started

supplementing with another 400 mcg of the folinic acid at night too.

But I am afraid to give additional TMG,

It's not the TMG, it's the combination of TMG + B12 + folic acid and this does

happen. Just keep the level down so that these reactions don't occur.

>although I have read that sometimes taurine is necessary for some kids to

process the TMG properly.

I have not seen this use of taurine suggested. It doesn't mean it's not right,

but I haven't seen it.

>As to B12, we have corresponded about this before. We are

about to give the injections a try, perhaps a little lower than the

Neubrander protocol calls for, since the oral will be next to

impossible with him.

Ah, I forgot. Well, if he went ballistic with the methyl donors (TMG + B12 +

folic acid) then you should be very careful about the B12 injections. He may

well have a very bad reaction and then it will take a long time for it to abate.

>As to the adrenal support, I will have to research how this is dealt

with in kids.

>Are you saying Dave, that we should do the copper protocol, and not

chelate until this is dealt with?

That what I would do. It's only about 3 months, you will need to do a hair

test to check on his progress, and then perhaps you will be able to see if

there is anything new showing in the hair.

>Isn't it true that DMSA brings the copper level down? I hate the thought of

waiting 4 more months before chelating.

Well, you can always try and see if he has any reaction to it. That is the

definitive way to test for mercury toxicity. I'm not saying not to do this,

but you may find something new in the hair once the copper is dealt with, and

it does seem you have enough other things to try in the mean time.

>Do you think the copper is hiding other toxic metals?

>Thanks. Irene

Dave.