Blood Pressure

[Guest guest]

Bob: what newsletter are you referring to? I've seen Null on TV and

looked at his website and I would recommend you save your money on his

expensive supplements and hokum such as an " eggplant solution " to lower

blood pressure. He's a real money-making machine IMHO. And there's no

scientific evidence to back up many of his claims.

IMHO and that of many CRONIES, running marathons is not the best thing for

your health. Assuming you are in good shape and not overweight, too much

exercise can also cause higher blood pressure. Meditation/relaxation may be

better for blood pressure than marathons.

Also some dairy products such as FF yogurt (which is a no-no to Null) may

lower blood pressure. There is no scientific evidence that dairy products

(or some of the other wholesome foods that Null advises not to eat) are

bad for you. I suggest you read Walford who is an esteemed scientist rather

than follow Null.

on 11/17/2003 6:08 PM, bob malkin at strombolis@... wrote:

> I am on CR with an extreme healthy diet. organic Blueberries, blackberries,

> kiwi, seeds, lots of organic greens and many days a 16 to 20o 65z organic

> green vegetable juice. I also use all the supplements recommended by

> Null. Perhaps twice a week I have wild salmon. Nothing is fried and the only

> cheat I might have is a bagel with nothing on it once a week. Lots of green

> tea. My blood work is terrific with 160 total cholesterol and an HDL of 85.

>

> I am turning 65 in a couple of months and just finished my third year in a row

> the NYC marathon. However, my blood pressure is running 145/85. I tried the

> eggplant solution mentioned in this newsletter and I don't take any

> traditional medications. Any other ideas?

>

> Bob

> strombolis@...

>

[Guest guest]

Perhaps fish oil supplements?

" E-Mail is not to be used to pass on information or data. It should only

be used for company business. " --Dilbert

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" The human race has only one truly effective weapon, and that is laughter! "

- Mark Twain

>From: " bob malkin " <strombolis@...>

>Reply-

>< >

>Subject: [ ] Blood pressure

>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 18:08:30 -0500

>

>I am on CR with an extreme healthy diet. organic Blueberries, blackberries,

>kiwi, seeds, lots of organic greens and many days a 16 to 20o 65z organic

>green vegetable juice. I also use all the supplements recommended by

>Null. Perhaps twice a week I have wild salmon. Nothing is fried and the

>only cheat I might have is a bagel with nothing on it once a week. Lots of

>green tea. My blood work is terrific with 160 total cholesterol and an HDL

>of 85.

>

>I am turning 65 in a couple of months and just finished my third year in a

>row the NYC marathon. However, my blood pressure is running 145/85. I

>tried the eggplant solution mentioned in this newsletter and I don't take

>any traditional medications. Any other ideas?

>

>Bob

>strombolis@...

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[Guest guest]

While I'm inclined to agree that running (actually the training for)

marathons may be a bit inconsistent with the healthful practice of CRON, I

have never heard distance running accused of raising blood pressure.

Regular aerobic exercise should actually be helpful.

145 is not scary high but the pulse pressure (difference between hi and low)

seems high also. Can I assume you've discussed with a real doctor? I would

avoid diuretics as they may not mix well with distance running, make sure

your doctor is aware of your running routine.

JR

-----Original Message-----

From: Francesca Skelton [mailto:fskelton@...]

Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 6:52 PM

Subject: Re: [ ] Blood pressure

Bob: what newsletter are you referring to? I've seen Null on TV and

looked at his website and I would recommend you save your money on his

expensive supplements and hokum such as an " eggplant solution " to lower

blood pressure. He's a real money-making machine IMHO. And there's no

scientific evidence to back up many of his claims.

IMHO and that of many CRONIES, running marathons is not the best thing for

your health. Assuming you are in good shape and not overweight, too much

exercise can also cause higher blood pressure. Meditation/relaxation may be

better for blood pressure than marathons.

Also some dairy products such as FF yogurt (which is a no-no to Null) may

lower blood pressure. There is no scientific evidence that dairy products

(or some of the other wholesome foods that Null advises not to eat) are

bad for you. I suggest you read Walford who is an esteemed scientist rather

than follow Null.

on 11/17/2003 6:08 PM, bob malkin at strombolis@... wrote:

> I am on CR with an extreme healthy diet. organic Blueberries,

blackberries,

> kiwi, seeds, lots of organic greens and many days a 16 to 20o 65z organic

> green vegetable juice. I also use all the supplements recommended by

> Null. Perhaps twice a week I have wild salmon. Nothing is fried and the

only

> cheat I might have is a bagel with nothing on it once a week. Lots of

green

> tea. My blood work is terrific with 160 total cholesterol and an HDL of

85.

>

> I am turning 65 in a couple of months and just finished my third year in a

row

> the NYC marathon. However, my blood pressure is running 145/85. I tried

the

> eggplant solution mentioned in this newsletter and I don't take any

> traditional medications. Any other ideas?

>

> Bob

> strombolis@...

>

[Guest guest]

I have heard that blood pressure rises during strenuous exercise such as

running and have heard of other distance runners (my husband for one) having

high blood pressure. This would be in addition to the inconsistencies of

such strenuous exercise and CRON which (as alludes to below) is not a

good idea. Regular aerobic exercise is one thing. The rigorous training

for a marathon is another thing entirely.

BTW, my husband no longer runs marathons. At one point in his younger days,

he was running one a month. Now he has trouble with pain in his legs if he

stands for a long time and walks further than a mile or so. IMHO marathon

running is not healthy.

on 11/17/2003 9:44 PM, john roberts at johnhrob@... wrote:

> While I'm inclined to agree that running (actually the training for)

> marathons may be a bit inconsistent with the healthful practice of CRON, I

> have never heard distance running accused of raising blood pressure.

>

> Regular aerobic exercise should actually be helpful.

>

> 145 is not scary high but the pulse pressure (difference between hi and low)

> seems high also. Can I assume you've discussed with a real doctor? I would

> avoid diuretics as they may not mix well with distance running, make sure

> your doctor is aware of your running routine.

>

> JR

>

>

[Guest guest]

I suspect you don't mean to imply that long distance running increases

average resting baseline blood pressure do you? That would fly in the

face of what most doctors would advise. If you do, it would be good to

provide some basis for that statement other than my husband was once a

runner and he has high blood pressure or that I've heard of other

runners with high blood pressure. Perhaps those individuals would have

had even higher blood pressure if not for the running.

Incidentally, of the large number of marathoners I've known, most have

had lower blood pressure during those periods of their life when they

were training for marathons than during other times. Also, as a cohort

they tend to be much healthier and have lower blood pressure than the

general population. In fact, it is my impression there is a larger body

of evidence (rigorous studies rather than speculation) supporting the

health benefits of vigorous exercise then there is for the health

benefits of CR. That doesn't mean that CR isn't beneficial, since I

believe it is, only that the positive impacts from exercise are easier

to study and document.

-----Original Message-----

From: Francesca Skelton

Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 10:12 PM

Subject: Re: [ ] Blood pressure

I have heard that blood pressure rises during strenuous exercise such as

running and have heard of other distance runners (my husband for one)

having

high blood pressure. This would be in addition to the inconsistencies

of

such strenuous exercise and CRON which (as alludes to below) is not

a

good idea. Regular aerobic exercise is one thing. The rigorous

training

for a marathon is another thing entirely.

BTW, my husband no longer runs marathons. At one point in his younger

days,

he was running one a month. Now he has trouble with pain in his legs if

he

stands for a long time and walks further than a mile or so. IMHO

marathon

running is not healthy.

on 11/17/2003 9:44 PM, john roberts at johnhrob@... wrote:

> While I'm inclined to agree that running (actually the training for)

> marathons may be a bit inconsistent with the healthful practice of

CRON, I

> have never heard distance running accused of raising blood pressure.

>

> Regular aerobic exercise should actually be helpful.

>

> 145 is not scary high but the pulse pressure (difference between hi

and low)

> seems high also. Can I assume you've discussed with a real doctor? I

would

> avoid diuretics as they may not mix well with distance running, make

sure

> your doctor is aware of your running routine.

>

> JR

>

>

[Guest guest]

It's true that I have no hard facts about the excessive exercise one must do

in order to run marathons. I'm just very suspicious about anything that

excessive. If you notice none of the most prominent doctors in the health

arena are recommendi it for lowering blood pressure (Walford, Ornish, Weil

for example). Ornish does recommend support venues and meditation, which I

mentioned previously. He has had great success with that along with his

diet among his test groups.

And anecdotal as it may be, I've heard of many people injuring themselves

and even developing cancer and dying young in spite of their former

athletiscism. This does not mean to imply that all exercise is bad. We're

talking extremism here, not moderate exercise.

Eating is an example of how extremism at either range is bad. Too much is

bad; you die from obesity and the many diseases it causes. Too little and

you starve to death or die from malnutrition. There's a happy medium where

the amount you do results in good health, not bad. Just one woman's opinion

to be sure - but as I said, nobody of respect in the health field (and I

don't count Null in that population) is touting marathon running.

on 11/17/2003 11:22 PM, cron@... at cron@... wrote:

> I suspect you don't mean to imply that long distance running increases

> average resting baseline blood pressure do you? That would fly in the

> face of what most doctors would advise. If you do, it would be good to

> provide some basis for that statement other than my husband was once a

> runner and he has high blood pressure or that I've heard of other

> runners with high blood pressure. Perhaps those individuals would have

> had even higher blood pressure if not for the running.

>

> Incidentally, of the large number of marathoners I've known, most have

> had lower blood pressure during those periods of their life when they

> were training for marathons than during other times. Also, as a cohort

> they tend to be much healthier and have lower blood pressure than the

> general population. In fact, it is my impression there is a larger body

> of evidence (rigorous studies rather than speculation) supporting the

> health benefits of vigorous exercise then there is for the health

> benefits of CR. That doesn't mean that CR isn't beneficial, since I

> believe it is, only that the positive impacts from exercise are easier

> to study and document.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Since I don't have the time for a long debate on this subject, I would

encourage everyone to do there own research on this. I think there is

strong bias at play in the discussion below (I'm not excluding my own).

Suffice it to say that the link between exercise and lowered blood

pressure is very strong. Simply do an internet search on exercise and

blood pressure and you will find many references by doctors and medical

researchers. To ignore this evidence is dangerous. It is far to easy to

rationalize away the need for exercise. If you set out to prove that

the training required for marathons is bad for you then you will be able

to prove it. It you set out to look at the subject with an open mind,

especially considering improved quality of life, I think you will come

to a different conclusion.

-----Original Message-----

From: Francesca Skelton [mailto:fskelton.at.erols.com@...]

Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 9:11 AM

Subject: Re: [ ] Blood pressure

It's true that I have no hard facts about the excessive exercise one

must do

in order to run marathons. I'm just very suspicious about anything

that

excessive. If you notice none of the most prominent doctors in the

health

arena are recommendi it for lowering blood pressure (Walford, Ornish,

Weil

for example). Ornish does recommend support venues and meditation,

which I

mentioned previously. He has had great success with that along with his

diet among his test groups.

And anecdotal as it may be, I've heard of many people injuring

themselves

and even developing cancer and dying young in spite of their former

athletiscism. This does not mean to imply that all exercise is bad.

We're

talking extremism here, not moderate exercise.

Eating is an example of how extremism at either range is bad. Too much

is

bad; you die from obesity and the many diseases it causes. Too little

and

you starve to death or die from malnutrition. There's a happy medium

where

the amount you do results in good health, not bad. Just one woman's

opinion

to be sure - but as I said, nobody of respect in the health field (and I

don't count Null in that population) is touting marathon running.

on 11/17/2003 11:22 PM, cron@... at cron@... wrote:

> I suspect you don't mean to imply that long distance running increases

> average resting baseline blood pressure do you? That would fly in the

> face of what most doctors would advise. If you do, it would be good

to

> provide some basis for that statement other than my husband was once a

> runner and he has high blood pressure or that I've heard of other

> runners with high blood pressure. Perhaps those individuals would

have

> had even higher blood pressure if not for the running.

>

> Incidentally, of the large number of marathoners I've known, most have

> had lower blood pressure during those periods of their life when they

> were training for marathons than during other times. Also, as a

cohort

> they tend to be much healthier and have lower blood pressure than the

> general population. In fact, it is my impression there is a larger

body

> of evidence (rigorous studies rather than speculation) supporting the

> health benefits of vigorous exercise then there is for the health

> benefits of CR. That doesn't mean that CR isn't beneficial, since I

> believe it is, only that the positive impacts from exercise are easier

> to study and document.

>

>

[Guest guest]

The real concern about " excessive " exercise is that it seems to produce a

large number of free radicals, which have been suggested by some

investigators as a factor in aging. Excessive exercise may accelerate aging

through this mechanism. One possible way to limit exercise induced free

radical damage mavy be to ingest antioxidants (such as vit. E) after

exercising, but data on this are preliminary and uncertain (on PubMed, see:

Urso ML, et al. Oxidative stress, exercise, and antioxidant supplementation.

Toxicology. 2003 Jul 15;189(1-2):41-54).

Walford endorses moderate exercise including a combination of

cardiovascular and resistance activities.

One theory about how CRON works, is that, by limiting food (i.e., fuel) fewer

free radicals are produced and damage to DNA/RNA/transcription and other

cellular mechanisms is reduced. So, since excessive exercise produces an

abundance of free radicals, it would seem to work against the benefits of

CRON.

Thin Man

> It's true that I have no hard facts about the excessive exercise one must do

> in order to run marathons.

[Guest guest]

Exercise absolutely is good for you. We're talking only about excessive

exercise, such as marathon running, so if we're to have a reasonable

discussion, it's important not to lump the two together. As I said earlier,

it's like lumping eating moderately with gorging oneself.

The excessive exercise necessary to train for a marathon not only releases

free radicals, but can cause physical injury . I'm not even going to get

into the obsessive mindset that one must develop to train for a marathon

which is another potential health problemf. Even if it lowers blood

pressure, is the cost worth it?

on 11/18/2003 10:40 AM, cron@... at cron@... wrote:

> Since I don't have the time for a long debate on this subject, I would

> encourage everyone to do there own research on this. I think there is

> strong bias at play in the discussion below (I'm not excluding my own).

> Suffice it to say that the link between exercise and lowered blood

> pressure is very strong. Simply do an internet search on exercise and

> blood pressure and you will find many references by doctors and medical

> researchers. To ignore this evidence is dangerous. It is far to easy to

> rationalize away the need for exercise. If you set out to prove that

> the training required for marathons is bad for you then you will be able

> to prove it. It you set out to look at the subject with an open mind,

> especially considering improved quality of life, I think you will come

> to a different conclusion.

>

[Guest guest]

Lower sodium intake.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: bob malkin

Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 5:08 PM

Subject: [ ] Blood pressure

I am on CR with an extreme healthy diet. organic Blueberries, blackberries, kiwi, seeds, lots of organic greens and many days a 16 to 20o 65z organic green vegetable juice. I also use all the supplements recommended by Null. Perhaps twice a week I have wild salmon. Nothing is fried and the only cheat I might have is a bagel with nothing on it once a week. Lots of green tea. My blood work is terrific with 160 total cholesterol and an HDL of 85.

I am turning 65 in a couple of months and just finished my third year in a row the NYC marathon. However, my blood pressure is running 145/85. I tried the eggplant solution mentioned in this newsletter and I don't take any traditional medications. Any other ideas?

Bob

strombolis@...

[Guest guest]

Hi folks:

In his book 'The Exercise Myth' Dr. , the author and a

cardiologist at Cornell Medical Centre in NYC, maintained that a

modest amount of exercise was critically important - people who are

bed-ridden do not survive long.

But he also maintained that diminishing returns rapidly set in as the

amount of exercise increased above a modest amount. I read the book

quite some time ago, and have since exercised a lot less than I used

to. But a lot more than he suggested.

One direct quote from his book was: " Fitness has absolutely nothing

to do with health " . I am not saying he was right. But I am saying

that is what he said.

Also, the principal physician at 'Participaction', an organization

financed by the canadian government for the purpose of encouraging

people to exercise more, told me a couple of years ago that they had

come to realize that the health benefits to be gained from exercise

could be achieved with much less of it than they had started out

believing.

That said, to have a decent life in old age one will need the

strength, endurance and flexibility to get around and do the things

one wants to do. That is unlikely to be achieved by sitting on the

couch. So I can well understand people exercising for the benefit of

their health. But if after their twenties they are running

marathons, I think it is probably for reasons other than health.

Which is fine too, of course. jmo.

Rodney.

>

> > Since I don't have the time for a long debate on this subject, I

would

> > encourage everyone to do there own research on this. I think

there is

> > strong bias at play in the discussion below (I'm not excluding my

own).

> > Suffice it to say that the link between exercise and lowered blood

> > pressure is very strong. Simply do an internet search on

exercise and

> > blood pressure and you will find many references by doctors and

medical

> > researchers. To ignore this evidence is dangerous. It is far to

easy to

> > rationalize away the need for exercise. If you set out to prove

that

> > the training required for marathons is bad for you then you will

be able

> > to prove it. It you set out to look at the subject with an open

mind,

> > especially considering improved quality of life, I think you will

come

> > to a different conclusion.

> >

[Guest guest]

Exercise is good to lower BP, but 3 miles walking at 3 mph, say 3 times per week is enough. It's the overweight that counts most. I wouldn't rule out extra exercise for those that can do it, but I can tell you it's VERY difficult to measure BP when your jogging, so you can't really know how high it's getting without an arterial monitor and they don't do that even for stress tests. People age and require higher pressure to operate - all people. The resting BP is only a guide and if that's high, I would be concerned at what's happening at higher physical output, especially without meds.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: cron@...

Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 9:40 AM

Subject: RE: [ ] Blood pressure

Since I don't have the time for a long debate on this subject, I wouldencourage everyone to do there own research on this. I think there isstrong bias at play in the discussion below (I'm not excluding my own).Suffice it to say that the link between exercise and lowered bloodpressure is very strong. Simply do an internet search on exercise andblood pressure and you will find many references by doctors and medicalresearchers. To ignore this evidence is dangerous. It is far to easy torationalize away the need for exercise. If you set out to prove thatthe training required for marathons is bad for you then you will be ableto prove it. It you set out to look at the subject with an open mind,especially considering improved quality of life, I think you will cometo a different conclusion.

[Guest guest]

Good advice, for light eaters light exercise should be adequate. While no doubt BP may rise transiently during exercise, it generally falls lower and longer during rest and thus the benefit.

I believe transient BP peaks can be harmful during weight training and for that reason people should be alert to proper technique (for example breathing during heavy lifts).

JR

PS: FWIW I have been in business meetings where I could hear a sedentary but obese individual breathing heavily from across the room. IMO the constant burden of carrying excessive weight is far more damaging to health than transient stresses from exercise.

-----Original Message-----From: jwwright [mailto:jwwright@...]Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 10:39 AM Subject: Re: [ ] Blood pressure

Exercise is good to lower BP, but 3 miles walking at 3 mph, say 3 times per week is enough. It's the overweight that counts most. I wouldn't rule out extra exercise for those that can do it, but I can tell you it's VERY difficult to measure BP when your jogging, so you can't really know how high it's getting without an arterial monitor and they don't do that even for stress tests. People age and require higher pressure to operate - all people. The resting BP is only a guide and if that's high, I would be concerned at what's happening at higher physical output, especially without meds.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: cron@...

Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 9:40 AM

Subject: RE: [ ] Blood pressure

Since I don't have the time for a long debate on this subject, I wouldencourage everyone to do there own research on this. I think there isstrong bias at play in the discussion below (I'm not excluding my own).Suffice it to say that the link between exercise and lowered bloodpressure is very strong. Simply do an internet search on exercise andblood pressure and you will find many references by doctors and medicalresearchers. To ignore this evidence is dangerous. It is far to easy torationalize away the need for exercise. If you set out to prove thatthe training required for marathons is bad for you then you will be ableto prove it. It you set out to look at the subject with an open mind,especially considering improved quality of life, I think you will cometo a different conclusion.

[Guest guest]

--- In , " Rodney " <perspect1111@y...>

wrote:

> Hi folks:

>

> In his book 'The Exercise Myth' Dr. , the author and a

> cardiologist at Cornell Medical Centre in NYC, maintained that a

> modest amount of exercise was critically important - people who

are

> bed-ridden do not survive long.

>

> But he also maintained that diminishing returns rapidly set in as

the

> amount of exercise increased above a modest amount. I read the

book

> quite some time ago, and have since exercised a lot less than I

used

> to. But a lot more than he suggested.

>

> One direct quote from his book was: " Fitness has absolutely

nothing

> to do with health " . I am not saying he was right. But I am

saying

> that is what he said.

>

> Also, the principal physician at 'Participaction', an organization

> financed by the canadian government for the purpose of encouraging

> people to exercise more, told me a couple of years ago that they

had

> come to realize that the health benefits to be gained from

exercise

> could be achieved with much less of it than they had started out

> believing.

>

> That said, to have a decent life in old age one will need the

> strength, endurance and flexibility to get around and do the

things

> one wants to do. That is unlikely to be achieved by sitting on

the

> couch. So I can well understand people exercising for the benefit

of

> their health. But if after their twenties they are running

> marathons, I think it is probably for reasons other than health.

> Which is fine too, of course. jmo.

>

> Rodney.

Hi Rodney,

I came across this post of yours tonight and found it interesting.

I just finished reading " Biomarkers " and they stated exactly what

you quoted Dr. as saying, if you lie around, you aren't

around much longer.

As for the amount of exercise, the prevelent belief is- " More is

Better! " However I know a 34 year old marathoner who passed away of

lung cancer last summer. No one knows why? Was too much exercise a

catalyst in the illness?

There is a small minority that think exercise can be " dosed " , almost

like a medication. Dose response theory, although making sense, is

having a hard time catching on in the aerobic/strength training

arena. However, there have been some interesting theories that

Arthur started (the founder of Nautilus) that have

been " toyed " with over the last 30 years. ' theory was you

could cut your exercise time by well over 3/4 and still gain

strength, muscle tone, and conditioning.

Probably the best known students of Arthur have been Ellington

Darden, Dr. Ken Hutchinson, and the late Mike Mentzer, Mr. America

(apparently he didn't practice what he preached). Ellington Darden

has written a book I have read several times, " Living Longer

Stronger " , he promotes a calorie restricted diet, and three days of

strength training using each session as a " dose " to improve ones

strength. His argument is a stronger, more muscular body, is a

healthier body, and if done right, a hard strength training session

(circuit training) can improve one's cardio vascular fitness as well.

Last winter I put the theory to the test. Restricted my calories

(Darden suggests 1500 a day), trained on a Nautlius circuit for 3

months (three times a week), and did nothing else " cardio " wise. I

went down to about 173 (from 185), and last summer made an 8 mile

hike through the Teton Wilderness quite comfortably. Next summer I

am looking at a 25 miler in the same area, using the same program.

Well, enough of the lecture.

Take Care,

Jon

[Guest guest]

Cayenne, garlic and ginger will all help with your BP. Eating raw

garlic will help lower and stabalize your BP, cayenne will regulate

your whole circulatory system as well as tonify or strengthen your

veins and

arterial walls making them more elastic thus equalizing your blood

circulation. I would strongly suggest that you begin using cayenne

powder at about 1/8 teaspoon twice a day and gradually work up to 1

teaspoon 3 times a day. This will give your body a wonderful boost and

should allow you to come off the BP meds easier.

________________________________________________________

This was a post a few thousand posts back by Don I think where he

suggested some herbs/food good for high blood pressure. It would be

helpful to file some of these posts under certain dis-ease categories,

eh?