Re: When would redistribution show? symptoms?

[Guest guest]

Hi Mildcasedad,

I do think this was redistribution or a herxheimer reaction to the

chelation. A couple days ago, I posted that my son experienced

frequent headaches, complained of aches, when I started giving ALA at

3 hours apart instead of 2 1/2. I think the headaches are

specifically related to the ALA redistribution and I say this because

my son didn't have them when the dosing was at 2 1/2 hours. I think

the DMSA may have been causing the body aches because those are new

for us with the addition of DMSA. Of course I'm sure candida plays

some part in all of this, just not sure what or how. I am looking

into it too. Thank you for asking a good question.

Liz

>

> Hi,

>

> I have some questions about when redistribution might occur after a

> round, and what it might look like given an event tonight.

>

> We have seen good results for 8-9 rounds (depending on how you count

> aborts) over mostly 2.6 day weekends using a 3-on/4-off schedule.

Our

> last round, a longer 3.6 day one, went quite well this past

weekend.

> Dosage has been 1/6th mg per lb of DMSA and ALA for the last 4-5

> rounds with no bad effects. The last dose was yesterday morning at

> 6AM. He was fine and in good form (bouncy, engaged, etc) all day

> today afterwards.

>

> However, at about 9PM tonight (15 hours after the last dose) out of

> the blue he had screaming fits and couldn't fall asleep for about 45

> minutes. While he claimed he ran into a towel rack (~15 min)

earlier

> and _may_ have had a very slight bruise by his eye, I couldn't see

> screaming from a bump like that lasting 45 minutes and it seemed

quite

> odd that he didn't complain at all immediately around the time when

he

> said it happened. [He's still a 6 year old that's a bit

> impressionable and not fully articulate.]

>

> Crudely, to see whether it might be redistribution, I've tried to

> estimate how much DMSA (4 hour half-life) and ALA (3 hour half life)

> would be left after 15 hours using AC chelation. Including the

> residuals of the previous 3 hour doses as well as the last one, I

> think that roughly 1/96 mg/lb (.5 mg) of ALA and 1/24 mg/lb of DMSA

> (2mg) would still be in his bloodstream. [He weighs about 45 lbs.]

>

> -Could a bad headache/screaming be signs of a redistribution issue?

> [There are few such descriptions in the archives, but it sounds as

> if that's possible.]

> -Do most redistribution problems happen soon after stopping a round,

> or do they also occur at random much later (e.g. 15 hours later in

> this case)?

> -Do they happen consistently at about the same time after rounds

> are done?

> -I take it that 1/96 mg/lb (.5 mg) of ALA and 1/24 mg/lb of DMSA

(2mg)

> could still cause this kind of effect??

>

> As mentioned, results for 8 recent rounds have been just super with

> almost no side effects (save for one fever).

>

> Is this likely to be more than a fluke, or (I hope) a paranoid

> delusion on my part (for supposing possible redistribution)?

>

> Many thanks in advance for your input.

>

[Guest guest]

The Herxheimer Reaction

The Herxheimer Reaction was discovered by two German dermatologists

(Jarisch & Herxheimer) when studying the reactions produced by

treating syphilis with mercury. The reaction is seen in 50% of

primary syphilis patients and 90% of secondary syphilis patients. It

also has been seen in several other infectious treatment protocols

for Lyme Disease, Candida albicans, CMV (cytomegalovirus), EBV

(Epstein Barr Virus), Q fever and several other infections. The

Herxheimer reaction (also known as Jarisch-Herxheimer or herx) occurs

when large quantities of toxins are released into the body as

bacteria die, due to antibiotic treatment.

Typically the death of these bacteria and the associated release of

endotoxins occur faster than the body can remove the toxins via the

natural detoxification process performed by the kidneys and liver. It

is manifested by fever, chills, headache, increased joint pain,

myalgias (muscle aches), a drop in blood pressure, hives, and

exacerbation of cutaneous (skin) lesions. Duration in syphilis is

normally only a few hours but can be much longer in other diseases.

The intensity of the reaction reflects the intensity of inflammation

present. The Herxheimer Reaction has shown an increase in

inflammatory cytokines during the period of exacerbation, including

tumor necrosis factor alpha, Interleukin-6 and Interleukin-8.

Worth noting is that hives and rash are sometimes mistaken for an

allergic reaction. It is up to one's physician to determine this, but

with close observation and the use of medications such as Benedryl

often prevents stopping antibiotics prematurely. In more severe cases

of the Herxheimer Reaction, a reduction of the dosage or temporarily

cessation of the treatment is an alternative. Many times, patients

think they have a bad reaction to an antibiotic, when in reality,

they are actually having the Herxheimer reaction.

The timing, frequency and duration of the Herx reaction are

individualistic and Herxheimer can occur within days to weeks after

the onset of antibiotic therapy. In some patients they occur only

once or twice (if at all) and with others continue throughout the

course of treatment, usually lessening in severity. They can occur

and are more often described in cycles (example: every 4 weeks) and

have been reported to last from days to weeks.

It can be very beneficial to document these exacerbations. Some

physicians use this as a guideline for treatment. Further it may help

differentiate Herxheimer's from the normal symptoms or progression of

Lyme disease.

Herxheimer reactions can be very difficult on patients and affect

compliance with therapy so supportive measures should be sought or

utilized to lessen discomfort if needed. The use of aspirin, NSAIDs

(non steroidal anti inflammatory drugs), pain medication, muscle

relaxers, hot baths or others remedies can be appropriate. Of note,

some have found Benedryl helpful even in the absence of rash or

hives. An herbal product, Burbur, has often been used with good

success as well as Benicar (prescription blood pressure medication)

in reducing Herxheimer reactions.

The good news is that the Herxheimer is thought to indicate that the

antibiotics are indeed working and that following each worsening may

bring about more improvement. However the lack of Herxheimer reaction

should not cause anxiety if symptoms are improving.

Something often overlooked but can present with similar symptoms as a

Herxheimer is Candida (yeast) infection. Treatment with acidophilus

and, if needed, prescription medications such as Nystatin or Diflucan

can be utilized.

> >

> > Hi,

> >

> > I have some questions about when redistribution might occur after

a

> > round, and what it might look like given an event tonight.

> >

> > We have seen good results for 8-9 rounds (depending on how you

count

> > aborts) over mostly 2.6 day weekends using a 3-on/4-off

schedule.

> Our

> > last round, a longer 3.6 day one, went quite well this past

> weekend.

> > Dosage has been 1/6th mg per lb of DMSA and ALA for the last 4-5

> > rounds with no bad effects. The last dose was yesterday morning

at

> > 6AM. He was fine and in good form (bouncy, engaged, etc) all day

> > today afterwards.

> >

> > However, at about 9PM tonight (15 hours after the last dose) out

of

> > the blue he had screaming fits and couldn't fall asleep for about

45

> > minutes. While he claimed he ran into a towel rack (~15 min)

> earlier

> > and _may_ have had a very slight bruise by his eye, I couldn't see

> > screaming from a bump like that lasting 45 minutes and it seemed

> quite

> > odd that he didn't complain at all immediately around the time

when

> he

> > said it happened. [He's still a 6 year old that's a bit

> > impressionable and not fully articulate.]

> >

> > Crudely, to see whether it might be redistribution, I've tried to

> > estimate how much DMSA (4 hour half-life) and ALA (3 hour half

life)

> > would be left after 15 hours using AC chelation. Including the

> > residuals of the previous 3 hour doses as well as the last one, I

> > think that roughly 1/96 mg/lb (.5 mg) of ALA and 1/24 mg/lb of

DMSA

> > (2mg) would still be in his bloodstream. [He weighs about 45

lbs.]

> >

> > -Could a bad headache/screaming be signs of a redistribution

issue?

> > [There are few such descriptions in the archives, but it sounds

as

> > if that's possible.]

> > -Do most redistribution problems happen soon after stopping a

round,

> > or do they also occur at random much later (e.g. 15 hours later in

> > this case)?

> > -Do they happen consistently at about the same time after

rounds

> > are done?

> > -I take it that 1/96 mg/lb (.5 mg) of ALA and 1/24 mg/lb of DMSA

> (2mg)

> > could still cause this kind of effect??

> >

> > As mentioned, results for 8 recent rounds have been just super

with

> > almost no side effects (save for one fever).

> >

> > Is this likely to be more than a fluke, or (I hope) a paranoid

> > delusion on my part (for supposing possible redistribution)?

> >

> > Many thanks in advance for your input.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Liz,

Thanks for the reply. I saw your thread on this a bit ago and

considered it.

The odd things for me there would be:

a) when I've seen a Herxheimer reaction before it was due to

yeast/bacteria, and we weren't being very aggressive on that during

this round

I didn't understand why headaches would suddenly appear after ~8

rounds when they hadn't earlier.

Quite the contrary. We've used DMSA + ALA throughout at very regular

3 hour intervals, and have seen nothing close to headaches until now.

The obvious question is: If it is redistribution, why now?

Is there another cause that can create headaches, esp. if chelating

frequently (3-on/4-off for several weeks)?

Or, is it common to see a redistribution reaction happen sporadically

during treatment?

Could iron deficiency while chelating with DMSA + ALA cause this? On

his recent (6/17) bloodwork, he had an iron (serum ferritin) level of

12 (reference range: 22-322, but that might be for adults), and a

quick Google suggests that low iron can cause headaches. However, the

timing for that would be odd, esp. since he's been just fine and we've

never seen him have a headache like this before...

Thanks again.

> >

> > Hi,

> >

> > I have some questions about when redistribution might occur after a

> > round, and what it might look like given an event tonight.

> >

> > We have seen good results for 8-9 rounds (depending on how you count

> > aborts) over mostly 2.6 day weekends using a 3-on/4-off schedule.

> Our

> > last round, a longer 3.6 day one, went quite well this past

> weekend.

> > Dosage has been 1/6th mg per lb of DMSA and ALA for the last 4-5

> > rounds with no bad effects. The last dose was yesterday morning at

> > 6AM. He was fine and in good form (bouncy, engaged, etc) all day

> > today afterwards.

> >

> > However, at about 9PM tonight (15 hours after the last dose) out of

> > the blue he had screaming fits and couldn't fall asleep for about 45

> > minutes. While he claimed he ran into a towel rack (~15 min)

> earlier

> > and _may_ have had a very slight bruise by his eye, I couldn't see

> > screaming from a bump like that lasting 45 minutes and it seemed

> quite

> > odd that he didn't complain at all immediately around the time when

> he

> > said it happened. [He's still a 6 year old that's a bit

> > impressionable and not fully articulate.]

> >

> > Crudely, to see whether it might be redistribution, I've tried to

> > estimate how much DMSA (4 hour half-life) and ALA (3 hour half life)

> > would be left after 15 hours using AC chelation. Including the

> > residuals of the previous 3 hour doses as well as the last one, I

> > think that roughly 1/96 mg/lb (.5 mg) of ALA and 1/24 mg/lb of DMSA

> > (2mg) would still be in his bloodstream. [He weighs about 45 lbs.]

> >

> > -Could a bad headache/screaming be signs of a redistribution issue?

> > [There are few such descriptions in the archives, but it sounds as

> > if that's possible.]

> > -Do most redistribution problems happen soon after stopping a round,

> > or do they also occur at random much later (e.g. 15 hours later in

> > this case)?

> > -Do they happen consistently at about the same time after rounds

> > are done?

> > -I take it that 1/96 mg/lb (.5 mg) of ALA and 1/24 mg/lb of DMSA

> (2mg)

> > could still cause this kind of effect??

> >

> > As mentioned, results for 8 recent rounds have been just super with

> > almost no side effects (save for one fever).

> >

> > Is this likely to be more than a fluke, or (I hope) a paranoid

> > delusion on my part (for supposing possible redistribution)?

> >

> > Many thanks in advance for your input.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Not thinking this is redistribution, sounds more like the irritability that some

kids get the day after the round. Try increasing his intake of C and magnesium

the day after as it is helpful for some kids.

Each round can be different or you could be moving into a new phase of

excretion. The normal course of chelation is to get improvements for 2-4 months

followed by a stall or even a worsening of symptoms for 6-9 months before you

see improvements again.

[ ] When would redistribution show? symptoms?

Hi,

I have some questions about when redistribution might occur after a

round, and what it might look like given an event tonight.

We have seen good results for 8-9 rounds (depending on how you count

aborts) over mostly 2.6 day weekends using a 3-on/4-off schedule. Our

last round, a longer 3.6 day one, went quite well this past weekend.

Dosage has been 1/6th mg per lb of DMSA and ALA for the last 4-5

rounds with no bad effects. The last dose was yesterday morning at

6AM. He was fine and in good form (bouncy, engaged, etc) all day

today afterwards.

However, at about 9PM tonight (15 hours after the last dose) out of

the blue he had screaming fits and couldn't fall asleep for about 45

minutes. While he claimed he ran into a towel rack (~15 min) earlier

and _may_ have had a very slight bruise by his eye, I couldn't see

screaming from a bump like that lasting 45 minutes and it seemed quite

odd that he didn't complain at all immediately around the time when he

said it happened. [He's still a 6 year old that's a bit

impressionable and not fully articulate.]

Crudely, to see whether it might be redistribution, I've tried to

estimate how much DMSA (4 hour half-life) and ALA (3 hour half life)

would be left after 15 hours using AC chelation. Including the

residuals of the previous 3 hour doses as well as the last one, I

think that roughly 1/96 mg/lb (.5 mg) of ALA and 1/24 mg/lb of DMSA

(2mg) would still be in his bloodstream. [He weighs about 45 lbs.]

-Could a bad headache/screaming be signs of a redistribution issue?

[There are few such descriptions in the archives, but it sounds as

if that's possible.]

-Do most redistribution problems happen soon after stopping a round,

or do they also occur at random much later (e.g. 15 hours later in

this case)?

-Do they happen consistently at about the same time after rounds

are done?

-I take it that 1/96 mg/lb (.5 mg) of ALA and 1/24 mg/lb of DMSA (2mg)

could still cause this kind of effect??

As mentioned, results for 8 recent rounds have been just super with

almost no side effects (save for one fever).

Is this likely to be more than a fluke, or (I hope) a paranoid

delusion on my part (for supposing possible redistribution)?

Many thanks in advance for your input.

[Guest guest]

I second 's recommendation to give vitamin C and Mg as this will

help the adrenals.

Ladyshrink111@... schrieb:

>

> Not thinking this is redistribution, sounds more like the irritability

> that some kids get the day after the round. Try increasing his intake

> of C and magnesium the day after as it is helpful for some kids.

>

> Each round can be different or you could be moving into a new phase of

> excretion. The normal course of chelation is to get improvements for

> 2-4 months followed by a stall or even a worsening of symptoms for 6-9

> months before you see improvements again.

>

>

>

> [ ] When would redistribution show? symptoms?

>

> Hi,

>

> I have some questions about when redistribution might occur after a

> round, and what it might look like given an event tonight.

>

> We have seen good results for 8-9 rounds (depending on how you count

> aborts) over mostly 2.6 day weekends using a 3-on/4-off schedule. Our

> last round, a longer 3.6 day one, went quite well this past weekend.

> Dosage has been 1/6th mg per lb of DMSA and ALA for the last 4-5

> rounds with no bad effects. The last dose was yesterday morning at

> 6AM. He was fine and in good form (bouncy, engaged, etc) all day

> today afterwards.

>

> However, at about 9PM tonight (15 hours after the last dose) out of

> the blue he had screaming fits and couldn't fall asleep for about 45

> minutes. While he claimed he ran into a towel rack (~15 min) earlier

> and _may_ have had a very slight bruise by his eye, I couldn't see

> screaming from a bump like that lasting 45 minutes and it seemed quite

> odd that he didn't complain at all immediately around the time when he

> said it happened. [He's still a 6 year old that's a bit

> impressionable and not fully articulate.]

>

> Crudely, to see whether it might be redistribution, I've tried to

> estimate how much DMSA (4 hour half-life) and ALA (3 hour half life)

> would be left after 15 hours using AC chelation. Including the

> residuals of the previous 3 hour doses as well as the last one, I

> think that roughly 1/96 mg/lb (.5 mg) of ALA and 1/24 mg/lb of DMSA

> (2mg) would still be in his bloodstream. [He weighs about 45 lbs.]

>

> -Could a bad headache/screaming be signs of a redistribution issue?

> [There are few such descriptions in the archives, but it sounds as

> if that's possible.]

> -Do most redistribution problems happen soon after stopping a round,

> or do they also occur at random much later (e.g. 15 hours later in

> this case)?

> -Do they happen consistently at about the same time after rounds

> are done?

> -I take it that 1/96 mg/lb (.5 mg) of ALA and 1/24 mg/lb of DMSA (2mg)

> could still cause this kind of effect??

>

> As mentioned, results for 8 recent rounds have been just super with

> almost no side effects (save for one fever).

>

> Is this likely to be more than a fluke, or (I hope) a paranoid

> delusion on my part (for supposing possible redistribution)?

>

> Many thanks in advance for your input.

>

>

[Guest guest]

and , thanks for your thoughts.

You could be right, but this seemed like pain/discomfort (headache)

which is unusual for him. Today he's just fine.

Will recheck the dosages but I think we're giving about 1300mg of Mg

and 3000mg of Vitamin C per day when chelating (and 500 mg of Mg and a

bit less vitamin C when not). [immediate thought is that the Mg may

be a bit high if correct.]

This was the first time we've seen anything like this. Something to

keep an eye on...

If we see it again, a break from 3-on/4-off or a switch to 3/11

wouldn't hurt.

Thanks again.

>

> Not thinking this is redistribution, sounds more like the

irritability that some kids get the day after the round. Try

increasing his intake of C and magnesium the day after as it is

helpful for some kids.

>

> Each round can be different or you could be moving into a new phase

of excretion. The normal course of chelation is to get improvements

for 2-4 months followed by a stall or even a worsening of symptoms for

6-9 months before you see improvements again.

>

>

>

>

> [ ] When would redistribution show? symptoms?

>

>

> Hi,

>

> I have some questions about when redistribution might occur after a

> round, and what it might look like given an event tonight.

>

> We have seen good results for 8-9 rounds (depending on how you count

> aborts) over mostly 2.6 day weekends using a 3-on/4-off schedule. Our

> last round, a longer 3.6 day one, went quite well this past weekend.

> Dosage has been 1/6th mg per lb of DMSA and ALA for the last 4-5

> rounds with no bad effects. The last dose was yesterday morning at

> 6AM. He was fine and in good form (bouncy, engaged, etc) all day

> today afterwards.

>

> However, at about 9PM tonight (15 hours after the last dose) out of

> the blue he had screaming fits and couldn't fall asleep for about 45

> minutes. While he claimed he ran into a towel rack (~15 min) earlier

> and _may_ have had a very slight bruise by his eye, I couldn't see

> screaming from a bump like that lasting 45 minutes and it seemed quite

> odd that he didn't complain at all immediately around the time when he

> said it happened. [He's still a 6 year old that's a bit

> impressionable and not fully articulate.]

>

> Crudely, to see whether it might be redistribution, I've tried to

> estimate how much DMSA (4 hour half-life) and ALA (3 hour half life)

> would be left after 15 hours using AC chelation. Including the

> residuals of the previous 3 hour doses as well as the last one, I

> think that roughly 1/96 mg/lb (.5 mg) of ALA and 1/24 mg/lb of DMSA

> (2mg) would still be in his bloodstream. [He weighs about 45 lbs.]

>

> -Could a bad headache/screaming be signs of a redistribution issue?

> [There are few such descriptions in the archives, but it sounds as

> if that's possible.]

> -Do most redistribution problems happen soon after stopping a round,

> or do they also occur at random much later (e.g. 15 hours later in

> this case)?

> -Do they happen consistently at about the same time after rounds

> are done?

> -I take it that 1/96 mg/lb (.5 mg) of ALA and 1/24 mg/lb of DMSA (2mg)

> could still cause this kind of effect??

>

> As mentioned, results for 8 recent rounds have been just super with

> almost no side effects (save for one fever).

>

> Is this likely to be more than a fluke, or (I hope) a paranoid

> delusion on my part (for supposing possible redistribution)?

>

> Many thanks in advance for your input.

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> ====>Did you ask him to show you where on his head, he was

hurting? I ask because when we got to 25 mgs of Ala, ours complained

of pain in her right temporal lobe. We reduced the dosage back to 12

mgs.===>

>

>

>

> Will recheck the dosages but I think we're giving about 1300mg of Mg

> and 3000mg of Vitamin C per day when chelating (and 500 mg of Mg and a

> bit less vitamin C when not). [immediate thought is that the Mg may

> be a bit high if correct.]

>

> ====>Yes, you are right, this should be plenty of magnesium and C,

reduce the dose of chelator and if that doesn't stop the side effect

of his headache then I would consider a 3/11 schedule.

>

Thanks again. It's odd though that we've been at 1/6th mg per lb for

4 (5?) weeks now and this is the first trouble we've seen.

He pointed to his forehead so it could be the frontal lobes.