B-12 question

[Guest guest]

Oral really does not provide any

supplementation. More than likely injections will be enough if done monthly.

If other supplementation is done it should be sublingual. Recommend checking

labs to know for sure

From:

[mailto: ]

On Behalf Of julie fosco

Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006

1:28 PM

Subject:

B-12 question

Hello, I was wondering if someone can help me. One of my

patients is seeing her primary care physician for B12 injections. Should

I recommend that she continue to take oral B12 supplements while receiving the

shots?

Thanks!

Cheap Talk? Check

out Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.

[Guest guest]

Some of our patients do fine on only the injections, but others

continue to take sublingual B12 daily or every other day. We don't

raelly recommend the oral B12 because it does not absorb as well, and

typically we have to switch those pts to sublingual. As written

below, just have B12 checked after 3 mos of whichever route you go to

see if more is needed or not.

RD, LD

>

> Oral really does not provide any supplementation. More than likely

> injections will be enough if done monthly. If other

supplementation is done

> it should be sublingual. Recommend checking labs to know for sure

>

>

>

> _____

>

> From:

> [mailto: ] On Behalf Of

julie

> fosco

> Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006 1:28 PM

>

> Subject: B-12 question

>

>

>

> Hello, I was wondering if someone can help me. One of my patients

is seeing

> her primary care physician for B12 injections. Should I recommend

that she

> continue to take oral B12 supplements while receiving the shots?

>

>

>

> Thanks!

>

>

>

>

>

> _____

>

> Cheap Talk? Check

>

<http://us.rd./mail_us/taglines/postman8/*http:/us.rd..c

om/evt

> =39663/*http:/voice.> out Messenger's low PC-to-

Phone call

> rates.

>

[Guest guest]

We have recommended 500 mcg oral B 12 daily, and have not had deficiency

problems unless someone's not taking it.

Strathdee, RD, LD, LMHC

Genesis Medical Center, Davenport, IA

>>> knbach@... 12/13/2006 7:18 AM >>>

Some of our patients do fine on only the injections, but others

continue to take sublingual B12 daily or every other day. We don't

raelly recommend the oral B12 because it does not absorb as well, and

typically we have to switch those pts to sublingual. As written

below, just have B12 checked after 3 mos of whichever route you go to

see if more is needed or not.

RD, LD

>

> Oral really does not provide any supplementation. More than likely

> injections will be enough if done monthly. If other

supplementation is done

> it should be sublingual. Recommend checking labs to know for sure

>

>

>

> _____

>

> From:

> [mailto: ] On Behalf Of

julie

> fosco

> Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006 1:28 PM

>

> Subject: B-12 question

>

>

>

> Hello, I was wondering if someone can help me. One of my patients

is seeing

> her primary care physician for B12 injections. Should I recommend

that she

> continue to take oral B12 supplements while receiving the shots?

>

>

>

> Thanks!

>

>

>

>

>

> _____

>

> Cheap Talk? Check

>

<http://us.rd./mail_us/taglines/postman8/*http:/us.rd..c

om/evt

> =39663/*http:/voice.> out Messenger's low PC-to-

Phone call

> rates.

>

[Guest guest]

Either the B 12 injections monthly or the sublingual B 12 tabs daily work well for our patients. They don't need both. Judy Carty RD; CD-N St. Francis Hosp. Hartford, CT 06105

Everyone is raving about the all-new beta.

[Guest guest]

Marjorie wrote:

>I am wondering if any research has been done about the B-12 content of

>live lactofermented vegetable foods. Specifically non-dairy, non-meat.

This site has lots of information on vitamin B12, backed up by research:

http://www.veganhealth.org/b12

This page from that site talks about reputed vegetable sources, and

debunks nearly all of them:

http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/plant

I have a book on fermented functional foods, and it doesn't suggest

synthesis of B12 in any of the foods.

Farnworth, R. (2003). Handbook of Fermented Functional Foods.

CRC. ISBN 0-8493-1372-4.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Booksources/ISBN_0849313724

--

Ross McKay, Toronto, NSW Australia

The planet is in a pickle, but fermenting will help save us

[Guest guest]

Hi

The book " The Body Ecology DIet " by Donna Gates talks about very good levels of

B12 in fermented Kefir. This is by the way a very excellent source of B12

Re: B-12 question

Marjorie wrote:

>I am wondering if any research has been done about the B-12 content of

>live lactofermented vegetable foods. Specifically non-dairy, non-meat.

This site has lots of information on vitamin B12, backed up by research:

http://www.veganhealth.org/b12

This page from that site talks about reputed vegetable sources, and

debunks nearly all of them:

http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/plant

I have a book on fermented functional foods, and it doesn't suggest

synthesis of B12 in any of the foods.

Farnworth, R. (2003). Handbook of Fermented Functional Foods.

CRC. ISBN 0-8493-1372-4.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Booksources/ISBN_0849313724

--

Ross McKay, Toronto, NSW Australia

The planet is in a pickle, but fermenting will help save us

[Guest guest]

Fieber wrote:

>The book " The Body Ecology DIet " by Donna Gates talks about very good

>levels of B12 in fermented Kefir. This is by the way a very excellent

>source of B12

Kefir is a good source of B12 when the milk used is a good source of

B12. Kefir can, by chance, synthesise B12, depending greatly on what

bacterial spp are present, but can also be a net consumer of B12 from

the milk. The milk itself is the reliable supplier of B12, not the kefir

fermentation.

--

Ross McKay, Toronto, NSW Australia

The planet is in a pickle, but fermenting will help save us

[Guest guest]

Hi Ross,

I am familiar with the first two sources and understand that there are

no plant sources of b-12. Before you worry--I take a supplement.

I was specifically wondering about b-12 in fermented foods because of

the live bacteria.

In the handbook you mentioned, you say " it doesn't suggest synthesis

of b-12 in any foods. " Does that mean that the author doesn't discuss

it, or that he doesn't think it exists, or that he has researched it

and found that it doesn't? Sorry, this may be my American English not

picking up the subtleties of your phrasing...

Marjorie

>

> I have a book on fermented functional foods, and it doesn't suggest

> synthesis of B12 in any of the foods.

>

> Farnworth, R. (2003). Handbook of Fermented Functional Foods.

> CRC. ISBN 0-8493-1372-4.

>

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Booksources/ISBN_0849313724

> --

> Ross McKay, Toronto, NSW Australia

> The planet is in a pickle, but fermenting will help save us

>

[Guest guest]

Marjorie wrote:

>[...]

>In the handbook you mentioned, you say " it doesn't suggest synthesis

>of b-12 in any foods. " Does that mean that the author doesn't discuss

>it, or that he doesn't think it exists, or that he has researched it

>and found that it doesn't? Sorry, this may be my American English not

>picking up the subtleties of your phrasing...

Pro'lly my fault for being too obtuse

The book I mentioned specifically addressed B12 in kefir (and fermented

milk products in general), noting that general consensus across multiple

studies was for loss of B12 rather than increase. This is not

necessarily due to consumption, BTW, as cold storage can affect B12

retention in milk. The upshot is that there is no reliable increase in

the amount of B12 in a food due to lactic acid fermentation (but again,

this was in the sections talking about milk fermentation).

I don't have anything to hand that I can refer you to for specifics on

vegetable fermentations. However, the books and papers I've read do tend

to comment on increases (and decreases!) in vitamins due to the effects

of fermentation, and I've never seen a reference to any increase in

vitamin B12 except in the case of Indonesian tempeh fermented with

traditional (not commercial) starter cultures, and even in this instance

it was not a reliable effect.

I think that unless you acquire the specific bacterial cultures used to

synthesise B12, and use laboratory procedures to maintain the purity of

the cultures, you're asking too much of a vegetable ferment when asking

for vitamin B12. Otherwise, you're left with the usual: animal products

and commercially synthesised B12.

--

Ross McKay, Toronto, NSW Australia

The planet is in a pickle, but fermenting will help save us

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the information, Ross.

I have heard people claim that eating fermented foods either provided

one with B-12 or made gut conditions for absorbing B-12 more

favorable. I have also read that there has been a study that seems to

suggest that pollutants in car exhaust rob the body of B vitamins and

specifically B-12(but I can't find the actual study, just lots of

people referring to it).

A nurse told me once that a large percentage of the general population

(90% of whom consume meat) have B-12 deficiency, the number she said

was 40%, and that it was often related to not enough folate in the

diet--a condition that most veggie and bean-eating vegans don't have a

problem with.

My health store purveyor assured me that I needed a sublingual B-12,

because the stomach acid would interfere with absorption of a regular

pill. My doctor said, nonsense.

I realize there is a lot of misinformation floating around and it

would be nice to see more research done to hash these things out.

Marjorie

> I don't have anything to hand that I can refer you to for specifics on

> vegetable fermentations. However, the books and papers I've read do tend

> to comment on increases (and decreases!) in vitamins due to the effects

> of fermentation, and I've never seen a reference to any increase in

> vitamin B12 except in the case of Indonesian tempeh fermented with

> traditional (not commercial) starter cultures, and even in this instance

> it was not a reliable effect.

>

> I think that unless you acquire the specific bacterial cultures used to

> synthesise B12, and use laboratory procedures to maintain the purity of

> the cultures, you're asking too much of a vegetable ferment when asking

> for vitamin B12. Otherwise, you're left with the usual: animal products

> and commercially synthesised B12.

> --

> Ross McKay, Toronto, NSW Australia

> The planet is in a pickle, but fermenting will help save us

>

[Guest guest]

Marjorie wrote:

>[...]

>A nurse told me once that a large percentage of the general population

>(90% of whom consume meat) have B-12 deficiency, the number she said

>was 40%, and that it was often related to not enough folate in the

>diet--a condition that most veggie and bean-eating vegans don't have a

>problem with.

There is certainly a difference between not getting enough B12 in your

diet, and not being able to access the B12 in your diet. I've also read

that folate is a major factor in uptake of B12, but there are other

factors, such as intestinal absorption problems (including coeliac

disease), parasites, and even some drugs.

>My health store purveyor assured me that I needed a sublingual B-12,

>because the stomach acid would interfere with absorption of a regular

>pill. My doctor said, nonsense.

From what I've read, they both sort-of have it right. It isn't stomach

acid, it's the ability of the intestine to absorb the B12. When someone

with a diet that should have sufficient levels of B12 is showing B12

deficiency, it means that something is interfering with uptake, so

sublingual B12 is more likely to get it into the system than swallowing

a pill.

However, for someone who just needs to get *some* B12 into their diet,

e.g. they are eating a vegan diet, I'd imagine that it wouldn't matter

which source of B12 they took (as long as it's the *active* B12 forms,

or a form readily converted to an active form).

Chances are, your doctor knows more about it than the person selling

bottles of pills with pretty labels. But given my family's history with

doctors, I'd only put those chances a little higher than even money :/

>I realize there is a lot of misinformation floating around and it

>would be nice to see more research done to hash these things out.

I'm sure that the research has in fact been done on sourcing B12 from

different ingredients and with different methods. Accessing it to answer

your specific question is hard, unless you know how to query the various

research databases. Perhaps one of the scientists on this list (there

are a few!) could say something about that.

The problem is that no matter how well researched something is, there

are people out to make a quick buck selling their book or bottle of

pills or powdered algae or whatever, often with good intentions but

little scientific background, and they cloud the picture somewhat. Add

to that, the commercially-backed " science " that goes on, coupled with

other vested interest groups trying to " prove " their points of view, and

you get a great collection of research, marketing, lobbying, and

religious-like pronouncement to wade through. Bleh.

Best I can offer is " good luck, buyer beware "

But don't think that you can rely on any vegetable ferment to supply you

with B12 - the available evidence says that you cannot. Reliable sources

are animal products and commercial synthesis.

--

Ross McKay, Toronto, NSW Australia

" If ye cannae see the bottom, dinnae complain if ye droon "

- The Wee Book of Calvin

[Guest guest]

> The problem is that no matter how well researched something is,

>there are people out to make a quick buck selling their book or

>bottle of

> pills or powdered algae or whatever, often with good intentions but

> little scientific background, and they cloud the picture somewhat.

>Add to that, the commercially-backed " science " that goes on, coupled

>with other vested interest groups trying to " prove " their points of

>view, and you get a great collection of research, marketing,

>lobbying, and religious-like pronouncement to wade through. Bleh.

>

> Best I can offer is " good luck, buyer beware "

Yes, Ross. I was afraid of that... Sigh.

Thanks for your help.

Marjorie

[Guest guest]

What would be the best way to administer B-12.

We would like to use either transdermal or oral.

In your opinion which would be the best/.

Has anyone used the above with success?

Thanks so much

Joyce

[Guest guest]

>

> What would be the best way to administer B-12.

> We would like to use either transdermal or oral.

I used oral sublingual with much success. It did require folic acid

and carnitine for proper absorption.

Dana

[Guest guest]

Hello,

A friend of mine uses the shots to give their child B12. There is a

cream that they put on their child's bottom and it numbs the area.

I've seen her give her child a shot and he did not even flinch. I

know you said transdermal or oral, but this maybe another

alternative.

>

> What would be the best way to administer B-12.

> We would like to use either transdermal or oral.

> In your opinion which would be the best/.

> Has anyone used the above with success?

> Thanks so much

> Joyce

>

[Guest guest]

I know that the question was transdermal vs. sublingual B-12. We have

been using the B-12 injections for over a month with very good results

so far, no hyperactivity, increased language, awareness. We are very

pleased with the results. (although there may be some aggravation of

gut issues). I know the injections are not good for everyone, but in

our case they have worked wonders. And they are not hard to

administer, we do it during a nap, or in the am before he gets up, the

needle is tiny. We use the cream most of the time, but sometimes not,

and our son does not even stir.

Irene

[Guest guest]

The cream is probably Emla cream.

S S

Re: B-12 question

Posted by: " threeofheartsasd " threeofheartsasd@... threeofheartsasd

Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:41 am (PDT)

Hello,

A friend of mine uses the shots to give their child B12. There is a

cream that they put on their child's bottom and it numbs the area.

I've seen her give her child a shot and he did not even flinch. I

know you said transdermal or oral, but this maybe another

alternative.