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In a message dated 4/2/02 10:26:00 PM Eastern Standard Time,

claudiameydrech@... writes:

> Thanks for your explanation...yes, I know, I believe that most of what

> we pass is cholesterol, and that true stones would be hard w/ calcium.

>

Most sources I've read refer to both cholesterol and calcium as " stones " .

Since both excess cholesterol and excess calcium can cause problems, I think

that whatever comes out is a step in the right direction.

just my .02

rachel~

" Whether you think you can or think you can't, you're right " - Henry Ford

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In a message dated 4/2/02 11:03:10 PM Eastern Standard Time,

barry91162@... writes:

> Whatever the case, flushing will clean out toxins, gunk, sludge,

> sandy 'pre-forming' stones, liver globs of stagnant bile, hard

> gallstones, intestinal sludge and parasites, colon toxins and

> stagnant waste from the entire digestive system.

And to me, personally, that's the important thing. I'm not so concerned

with classifications of stones as I am with how my health is affected by the

flushing.

Respecting the choice of those who desire to hash this all out...

rachel~

" Whether you think you can or think you can't, you're right " - Henry Ford

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& ,

Yes you are right on both counts. But some clarification is

needed here.

Most gallstones (90%) that are hard because of a crusty shell of

cholesterol or hard throughout are made of cholesterol. Calcium

stones are very rare and make up a very small number of hard

gallstones.

The soft pea green liver stones are globs of cholesterol which has

not been fully extracted of water (as it would in the gb therefore

making it become hard) and is a combination of water, the ingredience

of bile and the combination of oil mixed in the internal labratory of

the body. The fasting (or not even fasting) during a flush will help

the absorbtion of water out of the bile ingredience and form globs as

it passes through the intestine and colon areas.

Knowing the difference will help to understand the eliminations of

either gallstones vs. liver bile extracted of water and combined with

flushing.

Whatever the case, flushing will clean out toxins, gunk, sludge,

sandy 'pre-forming' stones, liver globs of stagnant bile, hard

gallstones, intestinal sludge and parasites, colon toxins and

stagnant waste from the entire digestive system. Also, the extra oil

within the body will help to make many of your bodily systems to

function better. Feeling better and having healthier insides is a

great benefit of cleansing your digestive system.

Be Healthy.

Barry.

> In a message dated 4/2/02 10:26:00 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> claudiameydrech@c... writes:

>

>

> > Thanks for your explanation...yes, I know, I believe that most of

what

> > we pass is cholesterol, and that true stones would be hard w/

calcium.

> >

>

> Most sources I've read refer to both cholesterol and calcium

as " stones " .

> Since both excess cholesterol and excess calcium can cause

problems, I think

> that whatever comes out is a step in the right direction.

>

> just my .02

>

> rachel~

>

> " Whether you think you can or think you can't, you're right " -

Henry Ford

>

>

>

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Are those dark green stones I get (I can take them apart) just globs of

stagnant bile?

----- Original Message -----

From: <Rachd1961@...>

<gallstones >

Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 11:11 PM

Subject: Re: Re: stone types

> In a message dated 4/2/02 11:03:10 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> barry91162@... writes:

>

>

> > Whatever the case, flushing will clean out toxins, gunk, sludge,

> > sandy 'pre-forming' stones, liver globs of stagnant bile, hard

> > gallstones, intestinal sludge and parasites, colon toxins and

> > stagnant waste from the entire digestive system.

>

> And to me, personally, that's the important thing. I'm not so concerned

> with classifications of stones as I am with how my health is affected by

the

> flushing.

>

> Respecting the choice of those who desire to hash this all out...

>

> rachel~

>

> " Whether you think you can or think you can't, you're right " - Henry Ford

>

>

>

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,

Stones ARE globs of stagnant bile that is forming into hard stones if

left too long in the body. Stones come from your bile. Cholesterol is

found in your bile which makes up 90% of stones. Calcium (pigment)

stones are more rare.

Cholesterol stones can either be soft and pea green throughout. Or,

they can have a cholesterol shell which makes them hard-er on the

outside. Cholesterol stones can also be 'crusty' throughout.

Calcium and/or pigment stones will be as hard as marbles and not

really squishable or crusty.

Hope this helps in some way. I guess I really don't understand

exactly what the question is.

Barry.

> Are those dark green stones I get (I can take them apart) just

globs of

> stagnant bile?

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: <Rachd1961@a...>

> <gallstones@y...>

> Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 11:11 PM

> Subject: Re: Re: stone types

>

>

> > In a message dated 4/2/02 11:03:10 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> > barry91162@y... writes:

> >

> >

> > > Whatever the case, flushing will clean out toxins, gunk, sludge,

> > > sandy 'pre-forming' stones, liver globs of stagnant bile, hard

> > > gallstones, intestinal sludge and parasites, colon toxins and

> > > stagnant waste from the entire digestive system.

> >

> > And to me, personally, that's the important thing. I'm not so

concerned

> > with classifications of stones as I am with how my health is

affected by

> the

> > flushing.

> >

> > Respecting the choice of those who desire to hash this all out...

> >

> > rachel~

> >

> > " Whether you think you can or think you can't, you're right " -

Henry Ford

> >

> >

> >

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My confusion is: are the *stones* I am getting out just recently formed (due

to the flush) globs of bile OR are they *stones* that have accumulated b/c I

have been sick with CFS and I have more toxicity than my liver can handle.

----- Original Message -----

From: " barry91162 " <barry91162@...>

<gallstones >

Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 10:55 PM

Subject: Re: stone types

> ,

>

> Stones ARE globs of stagnant bile that is forming into hard stones if

> left too long in the body. Stones come from your bile. Cholesterol is

> found in your bile which makes up 90% of stones. Calcium (pigment)

> stones are more rare.

>

> Cholesterol stones can either be soft and pea green throughout. Or,

> they can have a cholesterol shell which makes them hard-er on the

> outside. Cholesterol stones can also be 'crusty' throughout.

>

> Calcium and/or pigment stones will be as hard as marbles and not

> really squishable or crusty.

>

> Hope this helps in some way. I guess I really don't understand

> exactly what the question is.

>

> Barry.

>

>

>

>

> > Are those dark green stones I get (I can take them apart) just

> globs of

> > stagnant bile?

> >

> > ----- Original Message -----

> > From: <Rachd1961@a...>

> > <gallstones@y...>

> > Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 11:11 PM

> > Subject: Re: Re: stone types

> >

> >

> > > In a message dated 4/2/02 11:03:10 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> > > barry91162@y... writes:

> > >

> > >

> > > > Whatever the case, flushing will clean out toxins, gunk, sludge,

> > > > sandy 'pre-forming' stones, liver globs of stagnant bile, hard

> > > > gallstones, intestinal sludge and parasites, colon toxins and

> > > > stagnant waste from the entire digestive system.

> > >

> > > And to me, personally, that's the important thing. I'm not so

> concerned

> > > with classifications of stones as I am with how my health is

> affected by

> > the

> > > flushing.

> > >

> > > Respecting the choice of those who desire to hash this all out...

> > >

> > > rachel~

> > >

> > > " Whether you think you can or think you can't, you're right " -

> Henry Ford

> > >

> > >

> > >

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At 07:51 04.04.2002 -0500, you wrote:

>My confusion is: are the *stones* I am getting out just recently formed (due

>to the flush) globs of bile OR are they *stones* that have accumulated b/c I

>have been sick with CFS and I have more toxicity than my liver can handle.

Or you got CFS because you developed stones in the first place, inside your

liver and GB, and due to stones, your liver was unable to properly detox

blood and whole body, causing toxins to accumulate inside tissues ....

Or those stones that you got in the first place have been developed to

prevent your bowel reabsorbing strong toxins (mercury, pesticides, lead,

....) that have been too high inside your body ... and your liver may

continue producing stones, as that is the only safe way of preventing

reabsorption of toxins that have been dumped with bile ...

Do we really have to know the answers to all questions? or, cant we just be

satisfied with results and keep cleansing ....

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Barry, I am intrigued by this possibility. Is this something you have

read somewhere. I think sometimes it is important to know the

possibilities so we can prevent reformation. Dawn

>

> Or those stones that you got in the first place have been developed

to

> prevent your bowel reabsorbing strong toxins (mercury, pesticides,

lead,

> ...) that have been too high inside your body ... and your liver

may

> continue producing stones, as that is the only safe way of

preventing

> reabsorption of toxins that have been dumped with bile ...

>

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Dawn: I think Agnes provided this info. Yes, in my case, it is important to

know the cause so I can stop it and get rid of this CFS. I am continually

checking something. My amalgams ar eout, cavitations cleaned, toxic teeth

out and now I'm working on my sinus.

----- Original Message -----

From: " azdmarie " <nortons@...>

<gallstones >

Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 10:26 AM

Subject: Re: stone types

> Barry, I am intrigued by this possibility. Is this something you have

> read somewhere. I think sometimes it is important to know the

> possibilities so we can prevent reformation. Dawn

>

> >

> > Or those stones that you got in the first place have been developed

> to

> > prevent your bowel reabsorbing strong toxins (mercury, pesticides,

> lead,

> > ...) that have been too high inside your body ... and your liver

> may

> > continue producing stones, as that is the only safe way of

> preventing

> > reabsorption of toxins that have been dumped with bile ...

> >

>

>

>

>

> Learn more from our experience, more then 200 liver

> flush stories: http:///messages/gallstones-testimonials

>

> Liver Cleanse Recipe: http://www.CureZone.com/cleanse/liver/

> Liver Flush FAQ: http://curezone.com/forums/forum.asp?ForumID=73

>

> Images:

> http://CureZone.com/image_gallery/cleanse_flush/

> http://CureZone.com/image_gallery/intrahepatic_stones/

>

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> http://www.sensiblehealth.com/

> http://www.cyberpog.com/health/index.htm

> http://www.relfe.com/gall_stone_cleanse.html

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>

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>

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In a message dated 4/4/02 10:01:34 PM Eastern Standard Time,

barry91162@... writes:

> This also

> explains why some girl flushed 133 times over 4 1/2 years and is

> still flushing out hundreds of stones every two weeks and is asking

> when it will end.

Just a note. It doesn't, though, explain why some people start seeing a

decrease in the number of stones eliminated. That's a glitch in the

theory. Not being critical - just making an observation.

rachel~

" Live your dreams now. Life is not a dress rehearsal. "

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In a message dated 4/4/02 10:18:01 PM Eastern Standard Time,

barry91162@... writes:

> I hope this answers some questions and maybe 'groupmaster' can add

> more to his own reply.

>

Hmmmm....and why the assumption that groupmaster is male, eh? :)

just ribbing ya!

rachel~

" Live your dreams now. Life is not a dress rehearsal. "

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,

Good question. Only you can search out the answer to your own health.

Your personal experience and knowledge will soon lead you to that

answer for you.

For me (and I can only speak for my body, experience, and limited

knowledge) the soft, pea green throughout stones were coming from my

liver and were formed by excellerating the elimination process by

flushing. In my opinion, olive oil will not form balls on it's own

but if oil is mixed with bile in the internal labratory of the body,

globs can form. This internal action cannot scientifically be proven

either way. This explains why I have flushed over 2,000 globs (what

some people call stones) over 3 months and 8 flushes. This also

explains why some girl flushed 133 times over 4 1/2 years and is

still flushing out hundreds of stones every two weeks and is asking

when it will end. I also believe that if someone doesn't see stones

on one or two flush attempts, this does not prove that the oil will

not create globs by mixing with bile internally. Some people stop

flushing when they don't see results for one flush and it could have

only been because the bile consistancy or some other bodily function

with the flush wasn't right to produce the results.

I'd say if you have soft pea green globs (stones) with no noticable

center formed, it is most likly recently formed by the action of

flushing. Cleaning out that stagnant bile is still a good idea but to

call them stones is not exactly correct in my opinion.

To each their own opinion. You need to flush a few times, gather as

much information as you can find, and figure out what is best for

your body. Good luck with your own personal search for health and

happiness.

Barry.

> > > Are those dark green stones I get (I can take them apart) just

> > globs of

> > > stagnant bile?

> > >

> > > ----- Original Message -----

> > > From: <Rachd1961@a...>

> > > <gallstones@y...>

> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 11:11 PM

> > > Subject: Re: Re: stone types

> > >

> > >

> > > > In a message dated 4/2/02 11:03:10 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> > > > barry91162@y... writes:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > > Whatever the case, flushing will clean out toxins, gunk,

sludge,

> > > > > sandy 'pre-forming' stones, liver globs of stagnant bile,

hard

> > > > > gallstones, intestinal sludge and parasites, colon toxins

and

> > > > > stagnant waste from the entire digestive system.

> > > >

> > > > And to me, personally, that's the important thing. I'm not

so

> > concerned

> > > > with classifications of stones as I am with how my health is

> > affected by

> > > the

> > > > flushing.

> > > >

> > > > Respecting the choice of those who desire to hash this all

out...

> > > >

> > > > rachel~

> > > >

> > > > " Whether you think you can or think you can't, you're right " -

> > Henry Ford

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

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Dawn,

I didn't post that reply. It was written by groupmaster. You'd have

to ask him about his reply.

I think the theory he is trying to explain is that the liver will

extract the toxins from the blood that passes through it. Then the

bile will carry the toxins out to the stool for elimination from the

body. If the liver is fatty or overworked, stones will form instead

of smoothly passing out with bile. If the bile is lacking in an

ingredient (water, cholesterol, bile salts, etc) or over loaded with

an ingredient then the bile could become stagnant in the liver and

more often in the gallbladder where the bile will concentrate due to

the gb absorbing the water from the bile as it sits in the gb.

Gallstones are formed because of this reason. Liver stones must also

form because of bile problems or sluggish or overworked livers.

Conditioning the bile is the best way to keep it flowing smoothly.

Cleansing the liver will help the production, consistancy, and flow

of bile. Dieting will improve the ingredients of the bile itself and

also the full function of the liver. These actions will help to avoid

the future forming of stones. If you are doing everything you know to

prevent future stones forming and they still do then other factors

have to be looked at as well. Things like stress, heretitary reasons,

rapid weight gain or loss, excersize, etc.

I hope this answers some questions and maybe 'groupmaster' can add

more to his own reply.

Barry.

> Barry, I am intrigued by this possibility. Is this something you

have

> read somewhere. I think sometimes it is important to know the

> possibilities so we can prevent reformation. Dawn

>

> >

> > Or those stones that you got in the first place have been

developed

> to

> > prevent your bowel reabsorbing strong toxins (mercury,

pesticides,

> lead,

> > ...) that have been too high inside your body ... and your liver

> may

> > continue producing stones, as that is the only safe way of

> preventing

> > reabsorption of toxins that have been dumped with bile ...

> >

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,

Thanks for bringing that up. There really isn't a 'glitch' in the

theory. It just has to be explained logically from the other side. In

other words, the continual globs coming out would explain why the

globs are formed with flushing but what about the decreasing of globs

and/or the stopping of globs (stones)? I've already explained that

one or two results of 'no stones' could be just a different reaction

to the flush (all of us flushing has had less results and then more

on the next, right?) Some people will stop at that flush and think

they are stone free until pain returns a few weeks or months later.

But, what about the gradual lesser results of stones? Well, there is

an answer (keeping with the theory). As the body is more conditioned

with better dieting, the bile consistancy, flow and production will

also improve. Bile is always neccessary, as well as olive oil, to

form these balls. The internal body is also always needed and testing

can never be proven in any labratory. Your body is the labratory. So,

if you are changing your bile, the results will definitely be better

(better meaning less globs of bile-stones coming out). The body will

remove bile in the normal function with stool as it should do.

Flushing at that time would only increase the speed of action and

also make results more viewable (more viewable mainly because of

fasting while flushing).

By the way, I agree that olive oil will not coagulate on it's own, or

even when mixed with grapefruit, etc. That argument has been

exhausted. The question that can never be proven (either way) is what

happens when unhealthy bile is mixed with oil? Also when water is

extracted rapidly and the intestines and colon process the whole

thing. The internal action of the body can never be duplicated in a

lab. Therefore, because of my personal opinion, knowledge, and

experience, I believe that a lot what people call 'stones' are really

globs of bile mixed with oil and processed by a flush. These are the

types of stones that are pea green throughout, soft throughout, and

have no evidence of center. These are the majority of 'stones' that I

have eliminated from my body in the hundreds. Mind, I have also

eliminated a crusty stone and small black pigment stones as well. But

the majority 'stone' was the topic of discussion at the start of this

thread. Also, it was great to get this 'unhealthy' bile out with the

oil during a flush. You never know if those liver globs will later

form into hard stones or if they really will make it out of the body

on it's own. Dieting, excersize, etc. correctly will allow that bile

to exit perfectly well on it's own.

Hope this makes sense. Sometimes my opinion doesn't. :-) And of

course, sometimes people don't agree with my opinion which is what

makes my opinion mine and theirs theirs. Just a thought that is

really not to be meant as a theory or a debate. My personal

experience, study, and knowledge is only my own and is in no way

meant to sway anyone away from theirs.

Barry.

> In a message dated 4/4/02 10:01:34 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> barry91162@y... writes:

>

>

> > This also

> > explains why some girl flushed 133 times over 4 1/2 years and is

> > still flushing out hundreds of stones every two weeks and is

asking

> > when it will end.

>

> Just a note. It doesn't, though, explain why some people start

seeing a

> decrease in the number of stones eliminated. That's a glitch in

the

> theory. Not being critical - just making an observation.

> rachel~

> " Live your dreams now. Life is not a dress rehearsal. "

>

>

>

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Aren't all 'masters' male? hehe

Well, in some S & M circles, masters are women. In cyberspace

anything could happen. :-)

> In a message dated 4/4/02 10:18:01 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> barry91162@y... writes:

>

>

> > I hope this answers some questions and maybe 'groupmaster' can

add

> > more to his own reply.

> >

>

> Hmmmm....and why the assumption that groupmaster is male, eh? :)

>

> just ribbing ya!

> rachel~

> " Live your dreams now. Life is not a dress rehearsal. "

>

>

>

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In a message dated 4/7/02 8:31:41 PM Eastern Standard Time,

barry91162@... writes:

> I thought I answered the 'lesser stones while flushing theory' but

> I'll try again to support the theory one more time.

>

Yes, Barry. You have explained the theory - I just see it differently. I

respect your right to your opinion and I value your perspective on things.

We just have different thoughts on it - that's all. :)

Thanks for taking the time, though, to re-explain your theory. Just because

I see it differently doesn't mean that I'm right and you're wrong. :) I

wouldn't begin to pretend that I know more than anyone else out here about

the inner workings of the body! :)

in health,

rachel

" Live your dreams now. Life is not a dress rehearsal. "

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Hi ,

I thought I answered the 'lesser stones while flushing theory' but

I'll try again to support the theory one more time.

As you continue to flush every two weeks, as you continue to change

by eliminating or adding better dieting methods, as your body

cleanses, as the bile production, consistancy, flow changes, so will

the results. So, while you are regularly flushing, the body will

change and the combination of the re-conditioning bile with the oil

will change the results. Less globs, or what we call stones.

Also, many factors come into play here individually. Some people

flush forever and still see the same globs, or more. Does that mean

the body is producing more for them? Some people see slightly less

stones each time. Some people stop for a few weeks or months and

resume only to find they are back to hundreds of globs again. Some

people mix the potions different while experimenting with the method.

Many things will change the results. Even heretitary changes, stress

changes, weight changes, etc. I have personally stayed about the same

in the amount of stones I am getting out per flush. My bile is around

the same.

The theory cannot be proven or disproven because the internal

labratory of the human body cannot be tested by these results.

Bile is needed to make stones or globs. Olive oil alone will not

coagulate within the body. This has been proven to some degree. What

hasn't, and can't be proven (even results that change cannot be used

to prove this) is if healthy or unhealthy bile, if mixed with oil, in

a fasting body or non fasting body, at internal body temps and

intestinal processing, will in fact produce a glob form simular to a

stone. The 'real' stone we know is a hard, marble object with a

cholesterol or calcium base. The globs of throughout soft pea green

material with no center base coming out in the hundreds and thousands

in the person that is constantly flushing should not be viewed as a

gallstone in my opinion. It is good to cleanse this way but the sad

part of the method would be that someone doesn't understand what it

is they are really eliminating from their bodies. Hence, the 133

flushes over 4 1/2 years, every two weeks, and still getting hundreds

of globs out on each flush. A question mark comes up here. Either,

that body is creating these thousands of globs on it's own (which if

it did, the liver would have exploded years before the flushes began)

or that body is in some way excellerating the normal function of the

body and creating the globs with the bile-oil mix within the internal

labratory of the body. No way to prove, so no proof is available.

Personal experience can go either way, can change depending on too

many factors to be used as evidence to support either side.

It is good to cleanse for sure, but sometimes too much is enough. The

body will probably work fine on it's own if you have flushed hundreds

of times and getting the same number of globs out. Let the body do

it's own God-given actions.

Conclusion? Personal opinion and choice. Good luck. You decide. It is

your body after all. :-)

Barry.

> In a message dated 4/4/02 10:46:40 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> barry91162@y... writes:

>

>

> > Well, there is

> > an answer (keeping with the theory). As the body is more

conditioned

> > with better dieting, the bile consistancy, flow and production

will

> > also improve. Bile is always neccessary, as well as olive oil, to

> > form these balls. The internal body is also always needed and

testing

> > can never be proven in any labratory. Your body is the labratory.

So,

> > if you are changing your bile, the results will definitely be

better

> > (better meaning less globs of bile-stones coming out). The body

will

> > remove bile in the normal function with stool as it should do.

> > Flushing at that time would only increase the speed of action and

> > also make results more viewable (more viewable mainly because of

> > fasting while flushing).

> >

>

> Well, then to further dig into this theory, let's enter a case like

mine into

> it. I've done fairly consistent flushing for a few months and have

seen a

> decrease in the amount of stones/chaff/sludge, but have not

dramatically

> changed my diet, i.e., still consuming fats. The only thing I've

really

> changed is that I've been flushing. So according to the theory,

I should

> still be seeing stones/globs/chaff/sludge/sand, but it has

gradually

> decreased.

>

> On another note, though, I don't think that my gb attacks were

necessarily

> induced by fat. I know that flies in the face of typical

experiences, but

> the most recent attack (I still get about one a month) happened

about half an

> hour after eating chicken stirfry. No high amount of fat in

that. It does,

> however, have the combination that Agnes has previously written

about, which

> is protein and grain. So that brings us to the idea that GB

attacks are not

> necessarily brought about just by fat, but by anything that the

body has

> difficulty digesting.

>

> So, back to the theory. I understand what you're trying to say and

while I

> completely respect your right to your perspective and opinion about

it - I

> respectfully disagree with it. I know, though, that you aren't

posting it in

> order to create debates, so let it be known that I'm totally okay

with two

> people coexisting on the same list with differing opinions. :)

<big grin>.

>

>

> I totally support your search for health and any conclusions you

arrive at in

> the process.

> in health,

> rachel~

> " Live your dreams now. Life is not a dress rehearsal. "

>

>

>

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Hi Rach,

You know I agree with you as well. We sometimes agree to dissagree.

Everyone has to make their own individual choices that will work best

for them. If one of us happens to be wrong in this whole theory thing

(and only one can be right) it really doesn't matter. What matters is

that you do what makes you happy. Do what works for you and not what

may or may not work for someone else. We are all on this road

together to search for health, happiness, and maybe even a few more

years out of this crazy thing called life. :-)

Barry.

> In a message dated 4/7/02 8:31:41 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> barry91162@y... writes:

>

>

> > I thought I answered the 'lesser stones while flushing theory'

but

> > I'll try again to support the theory one more time.

> >

>

> Yes, Barry. You have explained the theory - I just see it

differently. I

> respect your right to your opinion and I value your perspective on

things.

> We just have different thoughts on it - that's all. :)

>

> Thanks for taking the time, though, to re-explain your theory.

Just because

> I see it differently doesn't mean that I'm right and you're

wrong. :) I

> wouldn't begin to pretend that I know more than anyone else out

here about

> the inner workings of the body! :)

>

> in health,

> rachel

> " Live your dreams now. Life is not a dress rehearsal. "

>

>

>

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