Re: Laboratory test..Stones or bile..?

April 22, 2002

The question should be asked this way...

First the facts.

Olive oil does not ball up on it's own within the body.

Olive oil is not the ingredient of 'soap balls'.

Olive oil has 0% cholesterol.

But...

How much bile was in the stones? What amount of oil was found in the

forms if 90% was not cholesterol? What else was tested for and found?

Oil does not create soap balls or coagulate in the body in it's own

solitary state but what happens when oil is entered into the

gastrointestinal area and the digestive tract is clear, bile is

squirted out of the common duct from the liver and gallbladder and

soft globs of pure light green/tan bile is formed while passing

through the digestive tract of the intestines and colon areas? How

can we know for sure what happens to bile when it is promoted to move

faster by the introduction of oil into the digestive tract?

In other words does the flush just increase the speed of eliminating

bile that normally travels down the tract in another form within a

hard stool? Is this what we see in the flush? Just balls of soft bile

that will coagulate because of the introducing of oil into the system

to increase the speed of action? Is this why all these hundreds of

globs are soft, green throughout, and seem to be regular bile instead

of hardened gallstones?

The action that is taking place within the internal labratory of the

human body can never be duplicated by testing outside of the

digestive tract. Sure, stones are not soap balls. Stones are not oil.

But, are stones really only globs or balls of excellerated bile that

would normally not create any problems if left to exit in the normal

way that bile leaves the digestive tract? And is the flushing/fasting

creating those balls of bile because of the method itself?

I remember one time, between weeks of flushing that my body actually

created this excellerated elimination of bile without olive oil. I

had eaten french fries and greasy foods. The elimination was within

one hour and it looked exactly like a flush with hundreds of balls of

soft bile. Oils in the fries helped to create that action that my

body would normal do but at a slower rate and within a hardened

stool.

In 95% of cases, gallstones are created within the gallbladder after

the water has been absorbed out of the bile by the gallbladder. Those

stones are hard and create problems. Soft blobs of bile will not

normally be in that form within the body (unless promoted to form by

the excellerated process of the fast/flush) and will not normally

create colic problems within the body until the bile becomes

gallstones.

If anyone can understand and follow this, this was one of my

latest 'thoughts' about what it is we are getting out in the flush.

Bile or gallstones? Oil was never a question for me.

Anyone can help? Thanks.

Barry.

> His response will be, " how would

> digested balls of olive oil test differently then cholesterol

> gallstones? " and I'll respond... Gee I don't know...!

>

> , There's no cholesterol is olive oil....period! I don't know

where it

> all goes, but I'm sure much is absorbed in your body, and some

comes out.

> But there's no cholesterol in it at all. It's probably one of the

most

> healthiest things in the world!

> Susie

April 22, 2002

Dale,

Thanks for that large answer on bile but I don't think you answered

my questions. haha

A couple of notes..

Except maybe for the part about bile being water soluble and not

forming into balls. Aren't balls or stones formed by bile witin the

body when water is removed from it? Gallstones seem to be made this

way within the gallbladder.

Also, how can we really be sure what the internal labratory of the

human body does with bile when it is removed in the methods of an

excellerated oil induced flush after fasting? Balls or stones that

are removed in a flush cannot be tested or duplicated in a lab

because the process within the human body is unmatchable and

untestable. We can speculate on a lot of actions but with all that is

processed in the human body it is impossible to duplicate.

In other words. Stones are not soap balls. Bile is not soap balls.

Cholesterol in not in olive oil. But what happens to bile in the

intestinal tract? Bile will normally exit with stool in a 'un-ball'

form because of regular intestinal processing. Bile that is forced to

exit while fasting (and introducing a motivator like oil) will exit

depicted of water because of fasting, etc. Will this form soft balls

of greenish throughout bile depicted of some amounts of water to

create it's form? Or will some other factors of the fast or flush,

including the oil, change the bile into the form we see eliminated?

Even though this is not testable because of the hundreds of other

factors of the human body, some factors can be deduced to reach

conclusions for or against the results created. For instance, those

balls can be tested for bile, oil, water content, but they can never

be tested for formation without the hundreds of other factors

introduced within the digestive tract of the human body.

The hundreds of globs, balls, or what some people call 'stones, are

they not just the regular bodily bile only in another altered form?

We know gallstones are definitely another form of bile that is

unnhealthy. Can't this bile we are seeing in a flush actually exit in

the regular way, in the regular form, without the fasting and

excellerated method of the cleanse? Slower perhaps but as long as the

bile is healthy it will not pose a problem left to it's own normal

processing.

Gallstones that cause colic pain and that have hardened within the

gallbladder is in my opinion the only form of bile that should be

termed as 'gallstones'. The soft balls of whatever bile content,

cholesterol, or even oil for that matter, does not usually require an

excellerated means of exiting as with the process of a flush. It will

not usually cause a problem and will generally exit within the normal

fucntion of digestive action.

Hard gallstones and soft balls of bile (what many people are calling

stones) in whatever context and content form are two different

animals altogether and should be studied and treated as such. The

differences are many and should be analized so that the problems of

each can be properly corrected.

We can only speculate what is happening to the bile within the human

body because the test we make outside of it are always inconclusive

do to our limited processes of testing in labs that are in no way

near or comparable to the miracles and vastness of the human

processing plant of our digsetive tract system. Ingredients can

always be tested but true 'processing' cannot.

Just some thoughts on Stones vs. Balls.

Barry.

> Wow! I'm a little taken on reading this one, Barry, but I'll try to

answer

> some of your questions as well as hopefully correct some statements.

>

> First lets take note of just what bile is and how it's made. Bile

consists

> of water, bile salts, cholesterol, bile pigments, lecithin, lipids

and

> electrolytes. Then too bile salts are made by the liver cells from

> cholesterol that either comes directly from foods eaten or the

cholesterol

> synthesized dureing the fat metabolism. In the case of Olive Oil

it's going

> to be synthesized from its fatty structure because of the fact that

Olive

> Oil contains no cholesterol.

> http://www.merck.com/pubs/mmanual_home/sec10/121.htm

>

> We should note of what the message from Nick stated regarding the

result of

> the labratory test. Nick noted that they stated the material tested

had lots

> of cholesterol, but then Jay's addition to the thread noted a

chiropractor

> who'd sent a sample to be tested and it was found to be 91%

cholesterol.

> This would have usually been reported as a waxy substance or fecal

matter

> but was noted specifically as cholesterol because of some other

specially

> ordered chemical used to test the matter in Nick's example. So that

leaves

> us with little question with which to deal, and according to Nick

it also

> sounded to me like the test was done to cover all chemical makeups.

>

> Then too, we keep in mind that gallstones tend to form from the

> precipitation of the cholesterol from the bile salts and lecithin

which is a

> mix called micelles. If there is too much cholesterol for the

quality of

> bile salts being made then chances are pretty good the cholesterol

will be

> able to precipitate from the mix much the same as fats will

precipitate from

> dish detergent and stick to the walls of the sink when it has

become overly

> saturated with fat. Keeping in mind too that the amount of water

isn't

> really the issue with keeping the fats or cholesterol emulsified.

> http://www.orst.edu/instruct/ans311/311cl09.htm

>

> So, if we really want to get technical about the mix that was

tested the

> test should include all of the various chemicals, hormones, and

enzymes that

> are presented in the last link noted here. As to what happens if

there is a

> large consumption of oil and then an elimination of it in short

order

> chances are pretty good that it could be just oil and some of it

would have

> been emulsified to be readied to get obsorbed throught the

intestinal wall.

> However, as in the case of myself, getting a colonic just a few

hours after

> an intake of 3 to 4 ounces of oil I often see oil deposited on the

veiwing

> window or moving along on the top of the water like oil will tend

to do

> since it is lighter than water. The bile will tend to be any

combinations of

> translucent colors and more soluble in the water.

> http://hepatitis-central.com/hcv/labs/bileacids.html

>

> So, the main point here is that bile is still water soluble and

will not

> form into a ball. In fact it will still be water soluble in the

intestines

> just as if it hadn't had water removed from it as in the

> gallbladder.Certainly a good reason to drink lots of water each

day. The

> only balls that may be seen would be oil that is starting to be

emulsified

> but hadn't had enough time to complete the process because of

having to move

> through the 20 plus feet of tubing at an excellerated rate. I guess

we now

> need someone to scoop up a slug of the mix and have it analyzed

since we now

> know the balls are a high percentage of cholesterol.

>

> Now then too, Barry, if you were eating greasy and fatty foods like

French

> fries then I would imagine your liver and gallbladder didn't stand

too much

> of a chance to produce a quality bile salt by which to get rid of

the excess

> in cholesterol of which the flushes were attempting to do along

with the

> attemp to get out the stone in the gallbladder. When I started on

my venture

> into the flushes, and seeking to keep my gallbladder, I had totally

avoided

> fats to a most religious degree. I've actually gotten to where I

can't even

> walk into some places that have that greasy smell without feeling

some

> nausia. The last French fry I had from Mc " D " tasted so bad I never

finished

> it and had a greasy feeling in my mouth for hours. That was over

two years

> ago and I can still remember the feeling of it. It's not to say I

don't eat

> French fries today but they are now usually of the larger sizes and

are

> baked instead of deep fried.

>

> Dale

>

> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>

> The question should be asked this way...

>

> First the facts.

>

> Olive oil does not ball up on it's own within the body.

> Olive oil is not the ingredient of 'soap balls'.

> Olive oil has 0% cholesterol.

>

> But...

>

> How much bile was in the stones? What amount of oil was found in the

> forms if 90% was not cholesterol? What else was tested for and

found?

>

> Oil does not create soap balls or coagulate in the body in it's own

> solitary state but what happens when oil is entered into the

> gastrointestinal area and the digestive tract is clear, bile is

> squirted out of the common duct from the liver and gallbladder and

> soft globs of pure light green/tan bile is formed while passing

> through the digestive tract of the intestines and colon areas? How

> can we know for sure what happens to bile when it is promoted to

move

> faster by the introduction of oil into the digestive tract?

>

> In other words does the flush just increase the speed of eliminating

> bile that normally travels down the tract in another form within a

> hard stool? Is this what we see in the flush? Just balls of soft

bile

> that will coagulate because of the introducing of oil into the

system

> to increase the speed of action? Is this why all these hundreds of

> globs are soft, green throughout, and seem to be regular bile

instead

> of hardened gallstones?

>

> The action that is taking place within the internal labratory of the

> human body can never be duplicated by testing outside of the

> digestive tract. Sure, stones are not soap balls. Stones are not

oil.

> But, are stones really only globs or balls of excellerated bile that

> would normally not create any problems if left to exit in the normal

> way that bile leaves the digestive tract? And is the

flushing/fasting

> creating those balls of bile because of the method itself?

>

> I remember one time, between weeks of flushing that my body actually

> created this excellerated elimination of bile without olive oil. I

> had eaten french fries and greasy foods. The elimination was within

> one hour and it looked exactly like a flush with hundreds of balls

of

> soft bile. Oils in the fries helped to create that action that my

> body would normal do but at a slower rate and within a hardened

> stool.

>

> In 95% of cases, gallstones are created within the gallbladder after

> the water has been absorbed out of the bile by the gallbladder.

Those

> stones are hard and create problems. Soft blobs of bile will not

> normally be in that form within the body (unless promoted to form by

> the excellerated process of the fast/flush) and will not normally

> create colic problems within the body until the bile becomes

> gallstones.

>

> Barry.

> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

April 22, 2002

Hi:

Interesting discussion, and very educational too.

From: http://www.niddk.nih.gov/health/digest/pubs/gallstns/gallstns.htm

" .....The two types of gallstones are cholesterol stones and pigment stones.

Cholesterol stones are usually yellow-green and are made primarily of

hardened cholesterol. They account for about 80 percent of gallstones.

Pigment stones are small, dark stones made of bilirubin. Gallstones can be as

small as a grain of sand or as large as a golf ball. The gallbladder can

develop just one large stone, hundreds of tiny stones, or almost any

combination..... "

And from Nick's nice post about the lab results of his gallstone sample:

" .....that the samples I provided were definitely gallstones - 100% certain!

To my surprise they contained no bilirubin, but they did contain lots of

cholesterol. They were very keen to stress that there was

absolutely no doubt about the analysis, it had been carried out very

carefully and thoroughly.

The work was done by a consultant bio-chemist at a National Health Service

(NHS) Bio-chemistry Laboratory in Scotland...... "

From Dr. ' book that I quoted previously:

" ....His analysis of the stone sample I sent was 91% cholesterol and the rest

was bile salts, water and inert ingredients. In other words, the sample had

the chemical contents of gall stones. And the report clearly states it was

gall stones "

I'm assuming that both Nick's stone and the ' stone sent for analysis

were the soft green variety due to their high cholesterol content. The labs

in both cases appear to be eminently qualified and in both cases they labeled

the stones as " gallstones. "

Barry, if you want them to be rock hard for them to meet your definition, I

don't see any problem with that either. There are many sites on the Internet

that have pictures of both the soft greenies and the rock candy hard ones.

But from the first definition above, both are gallstones.

From the above site where I got the gallstone definition it says that they

can be as small as a grain of sand. That was what I expelled on my first

flush in great quantities, and passed only 3 or 4 the size of small peas. I

had learned of the flush and methodology from the " Ask Tom " site (at

http://www.asktom-naturally.com/cleanse.html) and wrote to the gallstone

moderator letting him know of my disappointment, because of my age and

lifestyle had expected masses of large stones. I was informed that what I

had passed was known in the liver/gallbladder world as " chaff " and that I

should continue on with my flushes. I did, and have flushed 14 or 15 times

over the past 4 years with excellent results, sometimes getting 2-300 large

stones at a time (and no more chaff). I have faithfully used the Epsom salt

routine but my last 2 or 3 flushes have produced next to nothing so I'm

convinced that what is flushing out isn't olive oil or I would get the same

stuff and the same amount every time. That just doesn't happen.

I too went through the routine of thinking that what I was passing weren't

really gallstones, yet I have passed many different varieties in quantity,

size, and color, while using the same technique each time. Again, if it were

" just the oil " then all output would be the same. I became particularly

convinced that what I am passing are gallstones after sometime ago reading

Dr. ' lab results, and now too after reading Nick's lab results. If the

lab doing the analysis were Joe's Drugstore, then perhaps I would be

skeptical, but in both cases the labs appear to be highly qualified.

Jay

April 22, 2002

too went through the routine of thinking that what I was passing weren't

really gallstones, yet I have passed many different varieties in quantity,

size, and color, while using the same technique each time. Again, if it were

" just the oil " then all output would be the same. I became particularly

convinced that what I am passing are gallstones after sometime ago reading

Dr. ' lab results, and now too after reading Nick's lab results. If the

lab doing the analysis were Joe's Drugstore, then perhaps I would be

skeptical, but in both cases the labs appear to be highly qualified.

____________________

Jay, I really agree with your post. Like you, I've passed different things

during cleanses. Sometimes I've passed the light green blobs, but that was

mostly during the beginning of my cleanses. Then one time I passed mostly

sand stuff, chaff, and some small light brown stones. This week I'm going to

do like the 15th cleanse. I'll have to look at my calendar to be sure it's

#15, but each time I do this cleanse, it never ceases to amaze me. The

reason is because of different-looking material coming out. My husband's

theory was that the stuff maybe is in layers somewhere. I don't know. I

just know that it's gallstone/liver material. I know this because of how I

feel afterwards.

Susie

P.S. I have a friend who's done Dr. ' cleanse for over 10 years now,

and he has no problems.

April 23, 2002

Hi Jay,

I agree with you in the fact that what we are flushing is not 'just

oil'. In fact I'll even go further and say that it is definitely not

oil. If the balls, globs, or stones if you will, tested contained 91%

cholesterol, and olive oil has no cholesterol, than this is not the

question at all.

The question is different. Also, the definition of gallstones, either

cholesterol based or pigment based are referring to hardened

gallstones and not just globs of bile that has balled up on the way

out.

I definite hardened gallstones as a different form of bile than a

ball or glob of soft bile explelled in a faster method of cleansing.

They are two different things made of the same ingredient of bile,

but each of the two has different problems, forming procedure, and

action. This is the topic of question. Not wether they contain oil or

not. Doesn't matter if they do or don't in this question.

Let me clearify more. There are two types of eliminations.

Hard gallstones; These have formed from stagnant bile over time in te

gallbladder and are hard to flush out once they are two big to pass

through the cystic duct. These 'hard' gallstones are the cause of 90%

or more of the colic attack problems related to gallstones.

Soft gallstones; These are the soft blobs of bile that we are

normally getting out in a flush. These usually cause no problems and

will exit on their own in the normal function of the digestive trace

system. We see this type of bile in a fast/flush because we are

excellerating the process with the introduction of a catalist (oil)

to speed up the process. Fasting also allows us to see the results in

glob form instead of the normal way of elimination as inpacted within

stool. In effect, we are creating the balls with the method and these

forms of bile will normally exit on their own.

I personally have passed over 2,000 soft balls of bile, over 10 small

black pigment hard stones, but never a hard cholesterol gallstone. In

fact, the one I had in my gallbladder remained there throughout 8

flushes and still caused the original problem of colic pain.

Therefore, I have studied and analized the types of elimination in my

cleanses.

This is another reason to explain why someone can flush for 4 1/2

years, eliminating over 6,000 soft globs, and still have the colic

problems of a hardened gallstone.

Just some more clearifications on stones vs. bile balls.

We all need to reach our own conclusions in order to correctly combat

the problems that we are all personally facing. Good luck in your

search for gallstone truth, better health, and mostly pain-free

happiness.

Be healthy.

Barry.

> Hi:

>

> Interesting discussion, and very educational too.

>

> From:

http://www.niddk.nih.gov/health/digest/pubs/gallstns/gallstns.htm

>

> " .....The two types of gallstones are cholesterol stones and

pigment stones.

> Cholesterol stones are usually yellow-green and are made primarily

of

> hardened cholesterol. They account for about 80 percent of

gallstones.

> Pigment stones are small, dark stones made of bilirubin. Gallstones

can be as

> small as a grain of sand or as large as a golf ball. The

gallbladder can

> develop just one large stone, hundreds of tiny stones, or almost

any

> combination..... "

>

> And from Nick's nice post about the lab results of his gallstone

sample:

>

> " .....that the samples I provided were definitely gallstones -

100% certain!

>

> To my surprise they contained no bilirubin, but they did contain

lots of

> cholesterol. They were very keen to stress that there was

> absolutely no doubt about the analysis, it had been carried out

very

> carefully and thoroughly.

>

> The work was done by a consultant bio-chemist at a National Health

Service

> (NHS) Bio-chemistry Laboratory in Scotland...... "

>

> From Dr. ' book that I quoted previously:

>

> " ....His analysis of the stone sample I sent was 91% cholesterol

and the rest

> was bile salts, water and inert ingredients. In other words, the

sample had

> the chemical contents of gall stones. And the report clearly

states it was

> gall stones "

>

> I'm assuming that both Nick's stone and the ' stone sent for

analysis

> were the soft green variety due to their high cholesterol content.

The labs

> in both cases appear to be eminently qualified and in both cases

they labeled

> the stones as " gallstones. "

>

> Barry, if you want them to be rock hard for them to meet your

definition, I

> don't see any problem with that either. There are many sites on

the Internet

> that have pictures of both the soft greenies and the rock candy

hard ones.

> But from the first definition above, both are gallstones.

>

> From the above site where I got the gallstone definition it says

that they

> can be as small as a grain of sand. That was what I expelled on my

first

> flush in great quantities, and passed only 3 or 4 the size of small

peas. I

> had learned of the flush and methodology from the " Ask Tom " site

(at

> http://www.asktom-naturally.com/cleanse.html) and wrote to the

gallstone

> moderator letting him know of my disappointment, because of my age

and

> lifestyle had expected masses of large stones. I was informed that

what I

> had passed was known in the liver/gallbladder world as " chaff " and

that I

> should continue on with my flushes. I did, and have flushed 14 or

15 times

> over the past 4 years with excellent results, sometimes getting 2-

300 large

> stones at a time (and no more chaff). I have faithfully used the

Epsom salt

> routine but my last 2 or 3 flushes have produced next to nothing so

I'm

> convinced that what is flushing out isn't olive oil or I would get

the same

> stuff and the same amount every time. That just doesn't happen.

>

> I too went through the routine of thinking that what I was passing

weren't

> really gallstones, yet I have passed many different varieties in

quantity,

> size, and color, while using the same technique each time. Again,

if it were

> " just the oil " then all output would be the same. I became

particularly

> convinced that what I am passing are gallstones after sometime ago

reading

> Dr. ' lab results, and now too after reading Nick's lab

results. If the

> lab doing the analysis were Joe's Drugstore, then perhaps I would

be

> skeptical, but in both cases the labs appear to be highly qualified.

>

> Jay

>

April 23, 2002

Barry;

The removal of water from the bile doesn't in itself cause the formation of

gallstones. Many people live their whole lives without any having any

problem with bile stones forming either in the liver or the gallbladder, and

have it being concentrated for all those years without cholesterol

precipitating from the bile salts. However, in the gallbladder the bile is

made into a concentrate by the removal of water so that the amount stored

there can emulsify an amount of fat that seven to ten times the amount of

bile directly from the liver would have to do. If the body doesn't have an

over abundance of fat and cholesterol of the LDL type then the bile salts

will be able to maintain the cholesterol in an emulsified state, and it will

be water soluble when it gets to the intestines where the chyme will usually

be quite moist and be able to readily accept the fat emulsifying bile which

is water soluble while still being able to emulsify fats. There really isn't

too much of a difference between this and the dishsoap used for cleaning

fats from the eating utinsils used. We could remove all the water from that

type of soap and eventually end up with a water soluble powder. But there

isn't anything in this type of soap to become a solid mass.

Cholesterol precipitates when there isn't enough of the right combinations

in the bile salts matterial makeup or there is simply too much cholesterol

and fats trying to be removed from someone's system at one time. This is why

it isn't a good idea for obese people to do fasts as it can cause a greater

amount of fats and choleserol being put through the waste system than the

liver and gallbladder can handle at one time. This is why a diet that is

high in fiber and has a good input of Essential Fatty Acids will do a dieter

a lot better good that a crash diet or supper fast.

These balls of bile may, more than likely, be fats that that are in the

process of being emulsified during a flush but get to the toilet bowel

before being re-absorbed by the body. But they are not solid like the stones

that are formed when the cholesterol precipitates from the bile and it

churned into a ball of this waxy substance in the liver or the gallbladder.

Now as regards your third question I thought I'd given you just that answer

with the presentation of this address which is a fair schematic of the bile

production and its use and re-absorption;

http://www.orst.edu/instruct/ans311/311cl09.htm

Perhaps we're not talking about fasting in the same context of what it is

and how it is being done. From all that I've done of fasting I have never

gone without water or a juice of some sort so the body should never be short

of water from one source or another. Therefore there I always try to

maintain my electrolytes so as to not have to deal with nerves or muscle

twitching.

A ball of bile, which in my case has always been a combination of oil and

bile, is very possible when doing a flush because the liver and the

gallbladder will certainly be dumping bile to seek emulsifying the oil used

for the flush. .

Dale

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