Re: gallstones are formed in the liver

May 14, 2002

>>Saying your liver has no stones in it because you have none in your Common

Bile Duct is like saying your yard is weed free because you have none

growing on your sidewalk.<<

Like I said before. I wish I still had the report. It definitely does check

out the " tubing " inside the liver. The doctor also told me right after

surgery, before he had the report, that from examining my organs while he

was in there, everything, including my liver, looked great. (My

chiropractor is always commenting on what an amazingly healthy person I am.

Guess he's right.) But also, as I said before, listening to my body is the

best evidence.

Debra

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May 14, 2002

you people here who are trusting the medical tests are kidding yourselves. i

have had ultrasounds and mri of my liver and gall bladder. no problems

showed up. i have done 14 cleanses and passed copious amounts of all sorts

of stones. hard ones, soft ones, black, green. the scenario barry indicates

about the calcium stones being formed in the gall bladder sounds like utter

rubbish. the likely scenario is that the flush stones as he calls them, have

just been sitting in the gall bladder for too long and then harden. occam's

razor. this idea of heredity too must be questioned. first look to diet and

other chemicals and offending substances. barry mentioned he has done 8

cleanses. i think that is too little for someone who has had their gall

bladder removed. probably you have tons of larger ones still in your liver.

if you dig deeper, i think you will find the truth.

May 14, 2002

think there are some who would just prefer to believe this. It's like a

religion. His body would be letting him know if there was a problem.

From the MOUTH of someone who will never know....

May 15, 2002

>>probably you have tons of larger ones still in your liver.

if you dig deeper, i think you will find the truth.<<

I think there are some who would just prefer to believe this. It's like a

religion. His body would be letting him know if there was a problem.

Debra

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May 15, 2002

Arthur,

Calcium stones are not formed in the gallbladder, they are advanced

there to bigger sizes. Bile has to enter first. Bile is from the

liver. Could be that even a grain can stay in the gallbladder and

collect to the size that is too big to exit.

As far as my flushing 8 times, you 14 times, etc.

Do you still have colic pain? Why have you flushed 14 times? Are you

going to flush every two weeks for life? Are you still having pain is

the question, and answer. You can mask the pain with the coating

effects of oil and strict dieting but is the problem still there?

What is causing your continual pain? Is it the same problem or are

you making more gallstones?

I eat everything I want at anytime of day and night and have not had

any kind of bilinary pain since surgery. I don't believe I have more

liver stones. If I did would I have pain? If I don't have pain do I

still think I do?

Pain is the key. We all came into this flush method to stop the pain.

I'm sure that none of us couldn't think of something better to do

with a friday night except to drink large amounts of olive oil

and 'eliminate' our brains out the next day. My pain has stopped and

I feel healthy and happy again. That was the truth I was searching

for by coming into this method.

Good luck with your health, happiness, and search for a pain free

life.

Barry.

> you people here who are trusting the medical tests are kidding

yourselves. i

> have had ultrasounds and mri of my liver and gall bladder. no

problems

> showed up. i have done 14 cleanses and passed copious amounts of

all sorts

> of stones. hard ones, soft ones, black, green. the scenario barry

indicates

> about the calcium stones being formed in the gall bladder sounds

like utter

> rubbish. the likely scenario is that the flush stones as he calls

them, have

> just been sitting in the gall bladder for too long and then harden.

occam's

> razor. this idea of heredity too must be questioned. first look to

diet and

> other chemicals and offending substances. barry mentioned he has

done 8

> cleanses. i think that is too little for someone who has had their

gall

> bladder removed. probably you have tons of larger ones still in

your liver.

> if you dig deeper, i think you will find the truth.

May 15, 2002

sorry about misquoting you about the fluke. i guess i got my posters mixed up.

i have never ben in actual pain. i have experienced alot of bloating and

constipation. i came upon these flushes in my search for curing chronic fatigue.

in my early 20's i took antibiotics for 9 months thus destroying my intestinal

tract. thank you modern medicine. i am older and wiser now. but not well yet.

over the past 8 years i have passed approximately 100 pounds of waste from my

colon and countless parasites along the way. at a certain point, i came to the

realization that all of my bloating was not caused by the colon, thus the liver

cleanses. i think part of the reason i need so many cleanses is that i was very

very ill for a long time, and have alot of waste to dispense with. for many

years i ate a paleo diet which is high in fats and meat. at the time i felt that

i needed it because i was so weak and it seemed to help. i needed alot of fats

to lubricate the dry hardened fecal plaque as it passed through my colon. now i

think my body wants to alkalinize with lots of fresh fruits and veggies. it also

seems to want to clean the liver pronto. 6 ounces of oil for me is nothing. i

can drink it like water. do i plan to liver cleanse every two weeks for the rest

of my life? no. of course not. that is not a solution. i plan to cleanse until i

feel my liver is clean and then eat whatever i want and have faith that my body

will restore balance now that i stay away from doctors and the poison they

prescribe. one of the reasons i made that comment to you about you possibly

needing more cleanses is that you had your gall bladder removed. i am guessing

that such a person likely has a liver completely filled with stones. i am glad

you are pain free. if you feel you have reached peace then god bless. in my

search for health over the years i have come to some understanding of how the

body works. my belief is that most of us are walking cesspools. flushing the

liver is just the tip of the iceberg in getting clean.

my main probem now is that after each flush i feel that it is incomplete and i

get constipated. i am assuming this is more stones moving up and getting stuck.

it is very aggravating and frustrating. hopefully it will chill out after a few

more flushes. so to answer your question, yes the problem is still absolutely

there. what is the problem. i think metal poisoning is a piece of the picture

for me. probably the problem is combionation of alot of things. this is what i

think chronic fatigue is. i am not looking to these flishes as the cure for all

my ails, but hoepfully it will be an important piece of the picture.

many years ago, i was doing colonic therapy. i didn't like it at all, and

eventually i found a way to achieve the same results with just diet. i don't

agree that diet must be a strict proposition. to the contrary, the more i learn

i about diet, the more i am finding that what is good for me is exactly what i

want.

as far as using oil to 'coat' the problem. i can see your point, it is well

taken. i don't know where i sit on this issue. on the one hand, there is theory

that humans are innately carnivorous and should thrive on fats and meats.

probably raw. on the other hand i can see that it just might be a kludge

solution. only time will tell. also there is the possibility that alot of fats

are needed to protect the body from the effects of mercury poisoning. this seems

to ring true for me, as i have been doing mercury chelation for a few months

now, and i feel my desire for fats greatly reduced. i still have damage to

repair in my lungs, adrenals and thyroid. a long way to go. i am just blindly

making my way through all of this trying to do what feels right. so far i have

come a long way from being a bedridden vegetable for 5 years. still not there

yet, so i have to keep my mind open.

May 15, 2002

Arthur,

Our approaches to this cleanse were definitely for different reasons

and pains. I truly hope you can find better health and happiness with

your cleansing.

I had a gb that was pre-diseased, sluggish or not working properly.

My liver is good according to test results. I didn't have a gb 'full'

of stones, only 1 big stone that wouldn't come out according to

ultrasound. The ultrasound was true because once the gb was removed

and cut open only one stone was found there. So why the hundreds of

stones in each flush, the last one done one week before surgery? It

would seem that my removed gb would have had at least the 200 regular

amount of stones in it after cutting it open and looking inside.

Right? If they were dropping down from my liver between flushing then

the gb should have been full of them but it was clear except for the

one stone and sludge. Also my ducts and liver were clear as far as

could be tested.

Theories begin to fly here again. :-)

The colic was terrible, 3 times a week in the middle of the night for

months. I tried 8 flushes and the pain got worse or more sensitive.

The coating effect would stop the pain for a couple of days after a

flush and then return. Strict dieting and loosing 15 lbs didn't help

or stop the pain. My gb needed to come out because it would have

gotten worse, produced more stones in the stagnant organ, or would

have exploded during an attack. During one attack in ER an ultrasound

showed my gb blown up like a balloon.

Anyway, we are all looking for happiness and health and pain free

living.

Good luck in your search.

Barry.

> sorry about misquoting you about the fluke. i guess i got my

posters mixed up.

>

> i have never ben in actual pain. i have experienced alot of

bloating and constipation. i came upon these flushes in my search for

curing chronic fatigue. in my early 20's i took antibiotics for 9

months thus destroying my intestinal tract. thank you modern

medicine. i am older and wiser now. but not well yet.

>

> over the past 8 years i have passed approximately 100 pounds of

waste from my colon and countless parasites along the way. at a

certain point, i came to the realization that all of my bloating was

not caused by the colon, thus the liver cleanses. i think part of the

reason i need so many cleanses is that i was very very ill for a long

time, and have alot of waste to dispense with. for many years i ate a

paleo diet which is high in fats and meat. at the time i felt that i

needed it because i was so weak and it seemed to help. i needed alot

of fats to lubricate the dry hardened fecal plaque as it passed

through my colon. now i think my body wants to alkalinize with lots

of fresh fruits and veggies. it also seems to want to clean the liver

pronto. 6 ounces of oil for me is nothing. i can drink it like water.

do i plan to liver cleanse every two weeks for the rest of my life?

no. of course not. that is not a solution. i plan to cleanse until i

feel my liver is clean and then eat whatever i want and have faith

that my body will restore balance now that i stay away from doctors

and the poison they prescribe. one of the reasons i made that comment

to you about you possibly needing more cleanses is that you had your

gall bladder removed. i am guessing that such a person likely has a

liver completely filled with stones. i am glad you are pain free. if

you feel you have reached peace then god bless. in my search for

health over the years i have come to some understanding of how the

body works. my belief is that most of us are walking cesspools.

flushing the liver is just the tip of the iceberg in getting clean.

>

> my main probem now is that after each flush i feel that it is

incomplete and i get constipated. i am assuming this is more stones

moving up and getting stuck. it is very aggravating and frustrating.

hopefully it will chill out after a few more flushes. so to answer

your question, yes the problem is still absolutely there. what is the

problem. i think metal poisoning is a piece of the picture for me.

probably the problem is combionation of alot of things. this is what

i think chronic fatigue is. i am not looking to these flishes as the

cure for all my ails, but hoepfully it will be an important piece of

the picture.

>

> many years ago, i was doing colonic therapy. i didn't like it at

all, and eventually i found a way to achieve the same results with

just diet. i don't agree that diet must be a strict proposition. to

the contrary, the more i learn i about diet, the more i am finding

that what is good for me is exactly what i want.

>

> as far as using oil to 'coat' the problem. i can see your point, it

is well taken. i don't know where i sit on this issue. on the one

hand, there is theory that humans are innately carnivorous and should

thrive on fats and meats. probably raw. on the other hand i can see

that it just might be a kludge solution. only time will tell. also

there is the possibility that alot of fats are needed to protect the

body from the effects of mercury poisoning. this seems to ring true

for me, as i have been doing mercury chelation for a few months now,

and i feel my desire for fats greatly reduced. i still have damage to

repair in my lungs, adrenals and thyroid. a long way to go. i am just

blindly making my way through all of this trying to do what feels

right. so far i have come a long way from being a bedridden vegetable

for 5 years. still not there yet, so i have to keep my mind open.

>

May 15, 2002

<<I tried 8 flushes and the pain got worse or more sensitive. >>

how much epsom salts were you using in the flush?

<<Strict dieting and loosing 15 lbs didn't help

or stop the pain. >>

dieting is a VAST subject. strict does not necessarily mean good. losing weight

does not necessarily mean good either.

i have been studying diet for over a decade, and still i know very little. last

year i learned alot about raw foods, raw animal products and raw fats. i think

this is what prompted my liver cleansing

don't get me wrong, i am not at all faulting you for havign your gall bladder

removed. you did what you had to do. i have no idea what i would have done in

your shoes. that said, i still feel that your liver was chock full of stones.

this is my own personal belief. that a person whose situation came down to

surgery probably has some major things going on. though i am new to this

flushing i still think you have lots more in your liver.

at about my 8th cleanse i hit a wall. nothing came out. i decided to eat alot of

raw foods until my next cleanse. the last cleanses have been like a horror

movie. huge black stones.

your gall bladder ultrasound test may have been accurate, and your liver testing

may not have been accurate. my own experience as i have previously posted is

that i had both mri and ultrasound done. neither showed any stones or

abnormailites.

i am truly happy for you that your pain has been relieved.

i would suggest that you take in only raw fats. i'm sure you already know that.

there is a person i know who was helped by stanley bass's sequential eating

technique. he was able to gain 50 pounds of muscle after being emaciated from

losing his gall bladder. you might also benefit from some of aajonus

vonderplanitz' ideas on eating. he does not recognize flushing as valid, but he

has some great ideas on how to eat. and he is an amazing diagnostician with

iridology. he is also an extremist, so caveat emptor.

i still think you are kidding yourself about your liver. i hope i am very very

wrong.

in my experience extreme pain is the very last signal the body wil give us. this

is usually when it is almost too late to do anything about it. the body screams

out 'hey stupid, look over here, you are going to have to listen this time

because something very bad is about to happen'. the subtler signals are a bit

harder to read, but i think they are everpresent.

i am going to get in trouble for this... but here goes...

have you ever tried organic raw meats? there are tons of people on the live-food

list who are getting great benefit from eating this way. myself included.

actually, there is no one who is not receiving health benefits from doing this.

i know this is anti-clark, but i think hulda is a savant. part genius part

idiot. anyways, check into what your ancestors ate before the white european

devils disrputed things. that you mentioned 5 generations of your family before

you proves absolutely nothing about it being a hereditary disorder. if you had

family records that went back 20,000 generations, then i would be more inclined

to believe that you do in fact have a hereditary disorder. try some organic raw

buffalo liver pate. i bet you feel really really really good.

May 16, 2002

Dear Arthur,

Thanks for those tips on dieting. I'll look into some of them. I will

now try and answer some of your questions.

I was using the Dr. method for my 8 cleanses and varied them

alittle with more ES (5 instead of 4 tblspns) and more oil too.

I lost 15lbs in 4 months. From 170lbs to 155lbs and looked deathly

thin. My regular weight that makes me feel good and healthy is

170lbs. The twice monthly flushing and dieting was the major cause

for the weight loss. The flush would drain a lot of water from my

body and I even was looking at it as an added benenfit at first until

the weight got below 160lbs.

As far as the liver, there are differing opinions that people can't

agree on. Who really knows? The only reason I believe the way I do is

because of the collected knowledge that I have learned over the last

6 months. Here are some key questions that led me to believe I don't

have to worry about hard stones in my liver instead of your opinion

of my liver still being full of stones.

Why do thousands of autopsy reports claim no stones in the liver when

the gallbladder is full of them?

This would prove something. The doctors do not make up the facts

that are evident to them because they don't want to believe them.

It's just not done in information on this level of proof. They

conclude for a reason.

Why did my removed gallbladder only have one 1 cm hard gallstone, and

my ducts and liver were clear? This was 1 week after my last flush.

More stones should have dropped out of my liver into the gb, etc.

Opinions are respected but some are different than others. Some

believe the stones start as small grain in the liver and ducts and

end up growing in the stagnant gallbladder. Others believe that

stones are big and hard and then roll down into the gallbladder

through the 2mm cystic duct. Unlikely. Maybe they start as soft liver

blobs of cholesterol and squeeze into the gb, who really knows?

I think that the gb which will extract the water from the bile more

completely than the liver because it is the purpose of the organ,

that this is the organ to most likely change the bile to hard stones

in the gb.

Whatever the deal, pain is the result of gallstones trying to push

out of the gb, stones stuck in the common or cystic duct, etc. I

haven't heard of liver colic unless the liver is shot beyond repair

anyway.

You know, I'm not really sure about all this because I'm not even a

doctor, and I don't think anyone here really can prove or disprove

anything. All I know is that I had bad colic pain, I tried the

alternative flushing for 4 months with the pain still there and

getting more sensitive. I removed the organ and now the pain is

completely gone. I eat everything and anything at anytime of day or

night and don't have to worry, think, or concentrate on internal

organ pain. I have no bad side effects from loosing the organ.

That is my relief now. I diet better because I have learned that good

dieting is better for the entire body but I don't feel a prisoner to

what I eat or what time it is. I'm free from pain and that is the

goal I was searching for when I came into this method.

I think my liver is functioning fine. If I have even the faintest of

pain I will check into it, do a liver flush or two, and see what is

going on. If I don't have pain I will continue to live healthy and

not worry about what is in there or not. That would be like worrying

if I have kidney stones all of the time when I have no pain in the

kidney. Whatever. Pain-free allows you to live on the outside again

instead of inside the body all of the time.

That's just some of my thoughts. Good luck to you.

Barry.

> <<I tried 8 flushes and the pain got worse or more sensitive. >>

>

> how much epsom salts were you using in the flush?

>

> <<Strict dieting and loosing 15 lbs didn't help

> or stop the pain. >>

>

> dieting is a VAST subject. strict does not necessarily mean good.

losing weight does not necessarily mean good either.

> i have been studying diet for over a decade, and still i know very

little. last year i learned alot about raw foods, raw animal products

and raw fats. i think this is what prompted my liver cleansing

>

> don't get me wrong, i am not at all faulting you for havign your

gall bladder removed. you did what you had to do. i have no idea what

i would have done in your shoes. that said, i still feel that your

liver was chock full of stones. this is my own personal belief. that

a person whose situation came down to surgery probably has some major

things going on. though i am new to this flushing i still think you

have lots more in your liver.

>

> at about my 8th cleanse i hit a wall. nothing came out. i decided

to eat alot of raw foods until my next cleanse. the last cleanses

have been like a horror movie. huge black stones.

>

> your gall bladder ultrasound test may have been accurate, and your

liver testing may not have been accurate. my own experience as i have

previously posted is that i had both mri and ultrasound done. neither

showed any stones or abnormailites.

>

> i am truly happy for you that your pain has been relieved.

>

> i would suggest that you take in only raw fats. i'm sure you

already know that. there is a person i know who was helped by

stanley bass's sequential eating technique. he was able to gain 50

pounds of muscle after being emaciated from losing his gall bladder.

you might also benefit from some of aajonus vonderplanitz' ideas on

eating. he does not recognize flushing as valid, but he has some

great ideas on how to eat. and he is an amazing diagnostician with

iridology. he is also an extremist, so caveat emptor.

>

> i still think you are kidding yourself about your liver. i hope i

am very very wrong.

> in my experience extreme pain is the very last signal the body wil

give us. this is usually when it is almost too late to do anything

about it. the body screams out 'hey stupid, look over here, you are

going to have to listen this time because something very bad is about

to happen'. the subtler signals are a bit harder to read, but i think

they are everpresent.

>

> i am going to get in trouble for this... but here goes...

>

> have you ever tried organic raw meats? there are tons of people on

the live-food list who are getting great benefit from eating this

way. myself included. actually, there is no one who is not receiving

health benefits from doing this. i know this is anti-clark, but i

think hulda is a savant. part genius part idiot. anyways, check into

what your ancestors ate before the white european devils disrputed

things. that you mentioned 5 generations of your family before you

proves absolutely nothing about it being a hereditary disorder. if

you had family records that went back 20,000 generations, then i

would be more inclined to believe that you do in fact have a

hereditary disorder. try some organic raw buffalo liver pate. i bet

you feel really really really good.

>

May 16, 2002

>>From the MOUTH of someone who will never know....<<

What are you talking about??? I am in his (Barry's) same situation.

Feelin' fine, and stone-free, thank you. Even though there are some who

would rather not hear this. I'm not saying that this is what everyone

should do, but having done it, I DO INDEED know what my body is telling me.

The report only backs that up.

Debra

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May 16, 2002

<<I was using the Dr. method for my 8 cleanses and varied them

alittle with more ES (5 instead of 4 tblspns) and more oil too. >>

this is interesting. the man who turned me onto this cleanse is a d.c. in

vancouver. he claims that in thousands of people he has never encountered a

single serious problem. apparently your experience is different from his claim.

i would like to check into this with him because he seems to have given me only

good advice so far.

<<Why do thousands of autopsy reports claim no stones in the liver when

the gallbladder is full of them? >>

well, let's be scientific about this. please describe in detail the exact

procedure used in these autopsies you talk about. if they don't actually cut

open the liver into tiny pieces and examine every square inch, then there is a

flaw in the autopsy method. and therefore liver stones may go undetected. same

goes for impacted intestines and parasites.

<<The doctors do not make up the facts

that are evident to them because they don't want to believe them.

>>

this has not been my experience in life. most of the doctors i have seen (over

100!)totallyh miss the mark ad concentrate on the most complex solution to a

problem due to the nature of their training. because a person has m.d. after

their name means very little to me. d.c. means very little to me as well. i do

not assume anything anymore. it is not valid to just assume a doctor's motives

or his intelligence

<<They

conclude for a reason.

>>

please tell me the reasons for their conclusions. until we settle the question i

raise about the nature of the autopsies, i will continue to question the reasons

you have cited.

<<More stones should have dropped out of my liver into the gb, etc. >>

why should more stones have dropped from your liver into your gall bladder?

whatg do you mean by etc?

i don't know either how this process works. but i feel i have raised extremely

valid questions. i am still not sold on your explanation yet. but i remain open

until you provide sufficient evidence to sway me. so far your evidence is weak.

you are relying on hearsay from doctors. 10 years ago i would have been alot

more inclined to believe you. but every time i meet a doctor, i hear a person

talking in circles and riddles and hiding behind complex latin language, when

the reality is that doctor's don't have the slightest clue as to how the body

works. we are all equally in the dark as far as i am concerned. people heal

without doctors. the human race seems to have evolved over millions of years

without the help of doctors. all of sudden in the last few hundred years it

seems we have found the care of doctors in the nick of time.

May 16, 2002

>>My liver is good according to test results. I didn't have a gb 'full'