Re: the stones debate revisited

[Guest guest]

------People claim to have passed very large stones that were several inches.

This is a physical impossibility. The bile duct will stretch, but if you stretch

them like that, you ARE going to feel a lot of pain. Just like an acute attack

if one gets stuck in the gull opening. The ducts will stretch, but not that big.

If you are getting stones this large, they are created in the small intestine.

How? Simple. The large dump of bile that is lacking in bile acids will

precipitate large gobs of cholesterol in the intestine just like in the liver.

The mixing itself of the bile with the contents of the stomach will dilute the

bile acids and cause this to happen. -------- Please explain to me how my

experience would fit into your theory (please feel free to read my previous

posts for more information). I feel some of your facts are correct...but there

is some of it that just doesn't appear to fit with my experience. I was one of

these people who have passed several of these very large stones that you

mention..... and I did feel a LOT of pain...pain that I diligently tried to get

a diagnoses from my doctor as to what was causing it ...and for over two years

it just kept getting worse. Even with tests, I never did get a satisfactory

diagnoses, and the solutions the doctor had me try only made things worse...much

worse. The pain originated in the gallbladder area but it did encompass my whole

liver and gallbladder area. When it was at its worst it felt like I had gotten

run through by a large spear through my gallbladder area and then the pain would

radiate around the entire liver area - both front and back. When it wasn't at

its worst it would settle to feeling like someone was inserting a large sewing

needle through my gallbladder area...with the pain still radiating around.

During that time, the discomfort of it all NEVER went entirely away...that is,

until I did the flushes. As I did the flushes (6 in all) the pain was LESS in

the gallbladder area and was MORE noticeable in the lateral liver areas. With

each flush the pain was noticeably reduced, along with a number of other

symptoms I was experiencing...but it wasn't until I passed the largest of the

stones that the pain went entirely away ( I still have a " small " pain near the

outer edge of my ribs, liver area still, that sometimes surfaces. It has not

been constant but when it presents itself, it is always in the same area. I

haven't flushed for awhile to see if that would eliminate that particular

pain....but when I compare it to the discomfort I used to be in...believe me, it

is hardly noticeable). Several hours before I finally passed these large stones

I literally felt them move laterally under my ribs. This feeling was like

someone had rubbed their finger, with very firm pressure from inside my body,

across my liver for a distance of about 5-7 inches toward my gall bladder (the

start of the feeling, and the pain from it, was in slightly different places for

each of the large stones that passed - the first time it was closer to the

gallbladder - the second time it was father out). This happened each time I

passed the largest 2 stones. Once the feeling moved to my gallbladder area, I

could feel my gallbladder contract (it was a definite spasm feeling ). After

that the pain that used to linger in the area that the movement feeling started

from was GONE and has not come back. During the flushes which passed these

stones there was very few other stones of any other size present with them.

With the second largest one, the smaller stones that passed with it looked as if

they had broken off of the larger one....this larger one was not smooth in shape

like the biggest one I had passed...but was rough and uneven looking (so were

the others that passed with it). My last flush produced very few stones....and

what little that did come out were the size of gravel and pieces of rice. It

took the 3rd flush to produce the 3rd largest " stone " and it was not green

colored at all but a rubbery orangish/reddish brown colored " stone' (from my

iorn supplement nightmare? rust colored would apply) In fact, all but two of

the " stones " that passed in that flush were this color and texture (this is not

including the bits of clay like substance I passed in that flush that I feel

most likely did come from the colon - the largest of this substance passed in

the 4th flush with no more it passing after that). The largest " stone " didn't

pass until the 4th flush and the second largest passed with the 5th flush. In 6

flushes I can honestly say my body has only produced, at the maximum, about 700

to 800 of these " stones " .....that is including all of them. Most of these

numbers were passed in the first 3 flushes. In the last 3 flushes, my body only

produced about 100 or so " stones. " Yes, I do feel the body is constantly forming

globs of cholesterol and then breaking them down. After years of trying to

loose weight, (which to my frustration, even training for a marathon actually

made me GAIN weight last year) for the first time in nearly ten years I have

lost nearly 25 pounds...without any extra effort on my part. This is about how

much weight I have gained in the last two years (in 10 years I have gained over

60 pounds and NOTHING I tried, even with the help of trainers, seem to stop the

process - in fact, it seemed the more I worked out and watched my diet, the more

weight I would gain- believe me I got tired of hearing " your just gaining

muscle " ...yeah 60 pounds of it. Sure, like I can believe that!) I feel that

for the first time in years my liver is now processing, burning and eliminating

the cholesterol in my body like it was designed to. This occurred only AFTER I

did the flushing and passed the largest of these stones. (I started the first of

my 6 flushes in January). Most of that weight has come off in the last 2 months

and it is still occurring. Everybody has been asking what I have been doing

lately to look so good, not only with the weight loss, but with my whole

appearance and demeanor. I swear, even I can see the difference when I look in

the mirror....I look and feel like I have lost 10 years. I had some pictures

taken of me recently and compared them to some taken last year and some that

were taken 10 years ago....and the difference is shocking. I now look closer to

pictures of me at 24 years of age than I do to pictures taken of me last year!

You should see people's expression when they look at the comparison. The only

real significant changes I have made to my lifestyle, other than the flushing,

has been to incorporate a few simple guidelines that I knew about before but was

never very diligent in following. 1) when I eat dairy, I eat it like I would

eat a condiment-infrrequently and only a small amount at a time 2) drink less

water with my meals, and if I do drink anything with my meals, I try to make it

warm lemon water with apple cider vinegar added - if possible 3) try not to eat

after 7 or 8 pm 4) try to give my body at least 5 hours to digest meals before

going to bed 5) I eat the same amount of food as before, if not more :~)...but I

have been breaking them up in to smaller meals which I eat throughout the day

(my goal is 6 to 8 meals - but since I used to habitually only eat one meal a

day - I am doing good to get 3 or 4 meals in a day right now) 6) switched to

using more omega 3 and 9 oils and less omega 6 oil (I have always been a

vegetarian....so the only animal fat issue in my diet has been what little dairy

& egg I consume - both before and since the flush). 7) increasing my raw food

intake from what used to average about 40 to 50 percent of my diet to currently

about 70 to 80 percent of my diet. 8) from what I have been reading about soy

lately - I have been restricting my usage of it to mostly sprouted and fermented

forms and keeping the other to only infrequent condiment portions. Do I expect

everyone to have the same experience I have had with doing the flushing...of

course not....there are many factors at play with this sort of thing and the

results can vary drastically. From what you have said you have only done one

flush....it has taken me 6 flushes to where I am now pain free...others, like

Barry, have much more difficult things going on that will lead them to find

other ways to be pain free....but....with what you have written, it makes me

feel like I should doubt my own experience. Though I may try to put my

experiences, and what I have read of other's experiences with flushing, into

context, and then try to come up new understandings about what is going on...I

do not doubt my experiences. I know what I felt - before, during and after each

flush (all of which had very different results), I know that flushing has

dramatically changed my life for the better. If I had only done one flush, I do

feel I would be experiencing what you are now....continued discomfort. If I had

stuck to doing only one night of flushing each time, instead of doing the

mixture two nights in a row...I feel I may have gotten the same results...but

that it would have taken more overall flushes to get where I am now. Keep

investigating, listen to your body (sometimes that requires you to set " logic "

aside :~)) and do what you body feels most comfortable with. I felt more

comfortable after each flush than I did for years prior to it...so I kept doing

it...and it has made all the difference for me. I feel there is always a lot

more to be learned and discovered with how the body works and I am still

constantly learning. :~) ------There are bile balls or globs of cholesterol

that a lot of people are calling stones that have been produced by the liver in

the hundreds by the flushing methods itself and then there are 'real'

gallstones of the hard cholesterol or calcium type that is the real cause

behind the colic attacks of gallbladder pain.------ Now for Barry :~) I was

never diagnosed with " gallstones " ....though my pain was definitely

present....sometimes to where I could hardly breath or move. The only real

difference I have noticed with my pain, and how others who have expressed what

they have experienced with " hardened " gallstones, is that my pain was more

constant....what I really mean was that I was ALWAYS in discomfort, it was just

a matter of degree. Though the pain I was experiencing was focused at the

gallbladder area, it did encompassed my entire liver area. All my tests came

back normal. What then was causing my pain? Why, after passing these " bile

globs, " am I now pain free...with no actual gallstones, as you classify them to

be, to show for it? You keep mentioning these " bile balls " would normally exit

the body on their own without flushing. Why then is the evidence in my case

(based to the expanded description of my experience written above) pointing to

that not occurring? You mention that dieting would eventually dissolve them

over time...as I have stated, my diet before the flushing was by normal

standards already better than good. Granted, I have switched to a diet that is

by what many would consider almost fanatical, to get the optimum results that I

am experiencing...not because it has caused me pain not to....but because I do

not want any repeats of this happening again.....not to mention I like how I

feel when I do follow these guidelines than when I don't. I can not think that I

am the only one on this list who has had this kind of experience...an experience

which I am now just calling a " sluggish liver syndrome " caused by years of

extreme stress and lack of proper eating and sleep patterns (these are what I

tend to think may be the root of my health problems). I have a learned a great

deal over the past 5 months form this list and all the posts. You all have been

a great support to me in regaining my health. I look forward to continuing to

learn more....even though I am now technically " pain free. " :~) Regards,

Christa

---------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Flushing works.

I will soon be posting the results of flush #3.

Hi, ,

Yes, flushing works, and I do know for some people that it doesn't solve

their GB problems. Recently someone from Scotland, I think, wrote us that he

had the stuff tested that he got from cleansing. They had to order special

tests or something special to do the test. Anyway, his test results came

back that it was gallstones. I'm sure some of you will remember this guy

posting and letting us know. I didn't save the post, but I know that Agnes

responded to him also.

I also have friends who've been doing the cleanses for over 10 years and are

having no problems at all.

Susie

[Guest guest]

<<People claim to have passed very large stones that were several inches. This

is a physical impossibility. The bile duct will stretch, but if you stretch them

like that, you ARE going to feel a lot of pain>>

i was an unveliever like yourself for a long time. many many people told me this

was b.s. including doctors and some heavy alternatve practitioners. the truth is

self-evident after you have done a bunch of these flushes. the stones simply are

not formed in the small intestine, not formed in the colon, not caused by a

reaction of the oil with the epsom salts. thre is a man on the oxyplus list who

has administered THOUSANDS of these cleanses to his clients. if you want to go

there and try to find flaws in his logic, go ahead. you will then see the truth.

the body stretches all over the place. the anus looks small and yet people pass

large stools. the vagina does not look like it will be able to pas triplets or

quadruplets, and yet they do come out. there are people who lose 500 pounds, and

their skin shrinks to fit their new body. then they gain the weight back again,

and the skin expands to fit the body. try doing 5 or 6 flushes and then revisit

your logic

[Guest guest]

Christa,

Thank you for your detailed description of your flushes.

It is very helpful! :~)

> From: chris bennett <lochmabon@y...>

> with what you have written, it makes me feel like I should doubt my own

experience.

Yes that is the danger of listening to these medical " experts " .

Among their claims...

1- that the liver doesn't produce gallstones;

2- that the gallstones in the liver are produced by olive oil;

3- that only the gallbladder produces gallstones;

4- that gallbladder gallstones are " different " , because liver

gallstones are from olive oil and gallbladder gallstones are " real

gallstones " (only removeable by -- you guessed it! -- surgery);

5- that flukes only exist in China.

So.... the liver, that has produced no gallstones for years and

years.... suddenly produces 100's of them from drinking some olive

oil???

Absurd!

This medical logic is the reason people get sick and die in hospitals,

and the reason they get healthy when they leave. The doctors say they

were " lucky " and had " spontaneous remissions " ! Right, they were lucky

because they spontaneously escaped from the medical " experts " !

I don't care if people want to go to doctors. That is their choice.

What is offensive is the medical profession purposely giving out false

information and obscuring the truth to cause harm.

What is unconscionable is the medical profession invading people's

privacy and personal rights to make their OWN choices for themselves,

and trying to force them to do something else for their greedy profits.

Flushing works.

I will soon be posting the results of flush #3.

[Guest guest]

> From: " barry91162 " <barry91162@...>

> Heart disease is hereditarial as well.

Barry,

You are a walking ad for the AMA.

Fortunately, since they worked on you recently, you are still walking.

I am part Cherokee too but neither gall stones nor heart disease are hereditary.

You don't believe in your body, or in nature. Therefore, none of it works for

you.

Just like the old saying, " if you believe it works, you're right. if you

believe it doesn't,

you're right. "

Another saying for you, " either control your own life or someone else will do it

for you. "

You choose to have the medical profession control yours.

Your choice worked for you because it was the only option you let yourself have.

But for those of us who want to be healthy and control our own destiny, your

choices don't work

for us.

[Guest guest]

>>- that the liver doesn't produce gallstones<<

I have never met a doctor who says this. Any doctor will tell you that

stones can form in the liver when a blockage causes bile to become stagnant.

Surgeons have seen this firsthand. That is why they check for them if

someone has surgery.

Debra

_________________________________________________________________

Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.

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[Guest guest]

Christa,

You've asked my why your case is different. Every 'body' is

different. If you say that you were clear of stones by ultrasound

maybe then it was a lot of substance, sludge, grainy buildup, stones,

etc. in your ducts and liver. Whatever the case it is great that you

are now 'technically pain free' as you say. Congraduations on your

accomplishments and good dieting. We are all searching for the same

thing - pain-free, happy, and healthy living. I hope that you stay

that way. You may be one of the 50% who don't have to worry about

reoccuring stones. Actually, since you have said that you think your

gallbladder was not the problem and it was a sluggish liver then your

problem was definitely different than people suffering from gallstone

colic. Whatever the case, stay away from the pain and be proud of

yourself for your choices.

Also, thank you for that successful flush story. Great motivation.

Barry.

>

> ------People claim to have passed very large stones that were

several inches. This is a physical impossibility. The bile duct will

stretch, but if you stretch them like that, you ARE going to feel a

lot of pain. Just like an acute attack if one gets stuck in the gull

opening. The ducts will stretch, but not that big. If you are getting

stones this large, they are created in the small intestine. How?

Simple. The large dump of bile that is lacking in bile acids will

precipitate large gobs of cholesterol in the intestine just like in

the liver. The mixing itself of the bile with the contents of the

stomach will dilute the bile acids and cause this to happen. --------

Please explain to me how my experience would fit into your theory

(please feel free to read my previous posts for more information). I

feel some of your facts are correct...but there is some of it that

just doesn't appear to fit with my experience. I was one of these

people who have passed several of these very large stones that you

mention..... and I did feel a LOT of pain...pain that I diligently

tried to get a diagnoses from my doctor as to what was causing

it ...and for over two years it just kept getting worse. Even with

tests, I never did get a satisfactory diagnoses, and the solutions

the doctor had me try only made things worse...much worse. The pain

originated in the gallbladder area but it did encompass my whole

liver and gallbladder area. When it was at its worst it felt like I

had gotten run through by a large spear through my gallbladder area

and then the pain would radiate around the entire liver area - both

front and back. When it wasn't at its worst it would settle to

feeling like someone was inserting a large sewing needle through my

gallbladder area...with the pain still radiating around. During that

time, the discomfort of it all NEVER went entirely away...that is,

until I did the flushes. As I did the flushes (6 in all) the pain

was LESS in the gallbladder area and was MORE noticeable in the

lateral liver areas. With each flush the pain was noticeably

reduced, along with a number of other symptoms I was

experiencing...but it wasn't until I passed the largest of the stones

that the pain went entirely away ( I still have a " small " pain near

the outer edge of my ribs, liver area still, that sometimes

surfaces. It has not been constant but when it presents itself, it

is always in the same area. I haven't flushed for awhile to see if

that would eliminate that particular pain....but when I compare it to

the discomfort I used to be in...believe me, it is hardly

noticeable). Several hours before I finally passed these large

stones I literally felt them move laterally under my ribs. This

feeling was like someone had rubbed their finger, with very firm

pressure from inside my body, across my liver for a distance of about

5-7 inches toward my gall bladder (the start of the feeling, and the

pain from it, was in slightly different places for each of the large

stones that passed - the first time it was closer to the gallbladder -

the second time it was father out). This happened each time I

passed the largest 2 stones. Once the feeling moved to my

gallbladder area, I could feel my gallbladder contract (it was a

definite spasm feeling ). After that the pain that used to linger in

the area that the movement feeling started from was GONE and has not

come back. During the flushes which passed these stones there was

very few other stones of any other size present with them. With the

second largest one, the smaller stones that passed with it looked as

if they had broken off of the larger one....this larger one was not

smooth in shape like the biggest one I had passed...but was rough and

uneven looking (so were the others that passed with it). My last

flush produced very few stones....and what little that did come out

were the size of gravel and pieces of rice. It took the 3rd flush

to produce the 3rd largest " stone " and it was not green colored at

all but a rubbery orangish/reddish brown colored " stone' (from my

iorn supplement nightmare? rust colored would apply) In fact, all

but two of the " stones " that passed in that flush were this color and

texture (this is not including the bits of clay like substance I

passed in that flush that I feel most likely did come from the colon -

the largest of this substance passed in the 4th flush with no more

it passing after that). The largest " stone " didn't pass until the

4th flush and the second largest passed with the 5th flush. In 6

flushes I can honestly say my body has only produced, at the maximum,

about 700 to 800 of these " stones " .....that is including all of

them. Most of these numbers were passed in the first 3 flushes. In

the last 3 flushes, my body only produced about 100 or so " stones. "

Yes, I do feel the body is constantly forming globs of cholesterol

and then breaking them down. After years of trying to loose weight,

(which to my frustration, even training for a marathon actually made

me GAIN weight last year) for the first time in nearly ten years I

have lost nearly 25 pounds...without any extra effort on my part.

This is about how much weight I have gained in the last two years (in

10 years I have gained over 60 pounds and NOTHING I tried, even with

the help of trainers, seem to stop the process - in fact, it seemed

the more I worked out and watched my diet, the more weight I would

gain- believe me I got tired of hearing " your just gaining

muscle " ...yeah 60 pounds of it. Sure, like I can believe that!) I

feel that for the first time in years my liver is now processing,

burning and eliminating the cholesterol in my body like it was

designed to. This occurred only AFTER I did the flushing and passed

the largest of these stones. (I started the first of my 6 flushes in

January). Most of that weight has come off in the last 2 months and

it is still occurring. Everybody has been asking what I have been

doing lately to look so good, not only with the weight loss, but with

my whole appearance and demeanor. I swear, even I can see the

difference when I look in the mirror....I look and feel like I have

lost 10 years. I had some pictures taken of me recently and compared

them to some taken last year and some that were taken 10 years

ago....and the difference is shocking. I now look closer to pictures

of me at 24 years of age than I do to pictures taken of me last

year! You should see people's expression when they look at the

comparison. The only real significant changes I have made to my

lifestyle, other than the flushing, has been to incorporate a few

simple guidelines that I knew about before but was never very

diligent in following. 1) when I eat dairy, I eat it like I would

eat a condiment-infrrequently and only a small amount at a time 2)

drink less water with my meals, and if I do drink anything with my

meals, I try to make it warm lemon water with apple cider vinegar

added - if possible 3) try not to eat after 7 or 8 pm 4) try to give

my body at least 5 hours to digest meals before going to bed 5) I eat

the same amount of food as before, if not more :~)...but I have been

breaking them up in to smaller meals which I eat throughout the day

(my goal is 6 to 8 meals - but since I used to habitually only eat

one meal a day - I am doing good to get 3 or 4 meals in a day right

now) 6) switched to using more omega 3 and 9 oils and less omega 6

oil (I have always been a vegetarian....so the only animal fat issue

in my diet has been what little dairy & egg I consume - both before

and since the flush). 7) increasing my raw food intake from what used

to average about 40 to 50 percent of my diet to currently about 70 to

80 percent of my diet. 8) from what I have been reading about soy

lately - I have been restricting my usage of it to mostly sprouted

and fermented forms and keeping the other to only infrequent

condiment portions. Do I expect everyone to have the same experience

I have had with doing the flushing...of course not....there are many

factors at play with this sort of thing and the results can vary

drastically. From what you have said you have only done one

flush....it has taken me 6 flushes to where I am now pain

free...others, like Barry, have much more difficult things going on

that will lead them to find other ways to be pain free....but....with

what you have written, it makes me feel like I should doubt my own

experience. Though I may try to put my experiences, and what I have

read of other's experiences with flushing, into context, and then try

to come up new understandings about what is going on...I do not doubt

my experiences. I know what I felt - before, during and after each

flush (all of which had very different results), I know that flushing

has dramatically changed my life for the better. If I had only done

one flush, I do feel I would be experiencing what you are

now....continued discomfort. If I had stuck to doing only one night

of flushing each time, instead of doing the mixture two nights in a

row...I feel I may have gotten the same results...but that it would

have taken more overall flushes to get where I am now. Keep

investigating, listen to your body (sometimes that requires you to

set " logic " aside :~)) and do what you body feels most comfortable

with. I felt more comfortable after each flush than I did for years

prior to it...so I kept doing it...and it has made all the difference

for me. I feel there is always a lot more to be learned and

discovered with how the body works and I am still constantly

learning. :~) ------There are bile balls or globs of cholesterol

that a lot of people are calling stones that have been produced by

the liver in the hundreds by the flushing methods itself and then

there are 'real' gallstones of the hard cholesterol or calcium type

that is the real cause behind the colic attacks of gallbladder pain.--

---- Now for Barry :~) I was never diagnosed

with " gallstones " ....though my pain was definitely

present....sometimes to where I could hardly breath or move. The

only real difference I have noticed with my pain, and how others who

have expressed what they have experienced with " hardened " gallstones,

is that my pain was more constant....what I really mean was that I

was ALWAYS in discomfort, it was just a matter of degree. Though the

pain I was experiencing was focused at the gallbladder area, it did

encompassed my entire liver area. All my tests came back normal.

What then was causing my pain? Why, after passing these " bile

globs, " am I now pain free...with no actual gallstones, as you

classify them to be, to show for it? You keep mentioning these " bile

balls " would normally exit the body on their own without flushing.

Why then is the evidence in my case (based to the expanded

description of my experience written above) pointing to that not

occurring? You mention that dieting would eventually dissolve them

over time...as I have stated, my diet before the flushing was by

normal standards already better than good. Granted, I have switched

to a diet that is by what many would consider almost fanatical, to

get the optimum results that I am experiencing...not because it has

caused me pain not to....but because I do not want any repeats of

this happening again.....not to mention I like how I feel when I do

follow these guidelines than when I don't. I can not think that I am

the only one on this list who has had this kind of experience...an

experience which I am now just calling a " sluggish liver syndrome "

caused by years of extreme stress and lack of proper eating and sleep

patterns (these are what I tend to think may be the root of my health

problems). I have a learned a great deal over the past 5 months form

this list and all the posts. You all have been a great support to me

in regaining my health. I look forward to continuing to learn

more....even though I am now technically " pain free. " :~) Regards,

Christa

>

>

> ---------------------------------

>

[Guest guest]

,

I believe in alternative medical approaches as well as general

medical practices. I need both and so does everyone. The baby doesn't

get thrown out with the bath water for me.

Why do all the alternative medical doctors believe that gallstones

are caused by herediary reasons? Dieting, weight loss or gain,

certain age groups, etc. Both medical sides (alternative and general)

believe this to be true, why don't you?

I believe in my body, nature, and more in God who has created all.

If I could always believe in myself, believe in what works, and

always control my own health and destiny than I would never get sick

or die for that matter. You wouldn't be in a gallstone group either

if that was the case. We all need help beyond what we believe.

I hope the cleanse works for you. Give it your best shot like I did.

More importantly, be healthy, happy, and live a pain-free as possible

life.

Good luck in your search.

Barry.

> > From: " barry91162 " <barry91162@y...>

> > Heart disease is hereditarial as well.

>

> Barry,

>

> You are a walking ad for the AMA.

>

> Fortunately, since they worked on you recently, you are still

walking.

>

> I am part Cherokee too but neither gall stones nor heart disease

are hereditary.

>

> You don't believe in your body, or in nature. Therefore, none of

it works for you.

> Just like the old saying, " if you believe it works, you're right.

if you believe it doesn't,

> you're right. "

>

> Another saying for you, " either control your own life or someone

else will do it for you. "

> You choose to have the medical profession control yours.

>

> Your choice worked for you because it was the only option you let

yourself have.

>

> But for those of us who want to be healthy and control our own

destiny, your choices don't work

> for us.