Re: Cancer risk/bile question

[Guest guest]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

OK, I was waiting to read all the posts before I aked this question,

but this sentiment is what brings me to it. I have read the following

info that forms the question: Liver can produce up to a quart of bile

a day. Gallbladder is the size of a man's thumb. Bile is stored in

gallbladder and used when we eat fat. First question, how much bile

can the gb hold? I am thinking a few ounces. Does all of the bile go

through the gb before it hits the small intestine? I also have read

that the bile is reabsorbed by the body whether before or after

surgery. But here is my real question. If all of the bile does not go

through the gb and the body reabsorbs the excess, then what

difference does it make if we have a gb or not? I know I sound

like a heretic, but as I am now considering seeing a surgeon (haven't

actually made an appointment) I want to know this answer. Because if

we produce up to a quart, and only a few ounces go to the gb, and all

the rest is reabsorbed, then it SEEMS like it is easier to live

without the gb than I have been willing to admit. Acknowledging of

course, that there are people injured in surgery, people who still

have problems after surgery, etc. Dawn

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Ok, Ms Heretic;

Let's see if this can all be cleared up regarding the gallbladder's size and

need. First off you're right about much regarding the amounts of bile

produced by the liver and the fact that much of it is recycled back to be

reused again. This recycling is one of the reasons we want a diet very high

in a soluble fiber and an insoluble fiber to help get out the high levels of

cholesterol one may contain before it can be recycled from the intestines.

Note the cute little picture showing the recycling at this site. In fact

this may be a vary good site to just surf around and learn.

http://arbl.cvmbs.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/digestion/liver/bile.html

The gallbladder is small but like a good quality detergent that is perhaps

quite concentrated the bile that it may contain will have the capacity to do

the same as approximately five to eight times the amount of bile directly

from the liver. You see, not all bile is stored in the gallbladder for the

purpose of which it does. The demand for the more concentrated bile will

come when someone eats a meal that will be calling for a greater amount of

bile at that moment, keeping in mind the amounts that are makeable

throughout a day. Let's say a meal is eaten where in there is a high amount

of fats and protein needing emulsified. If you rely simply on the liver's

supply of bile you would need to eat much slower and over a longer period of

time to get all the benefit from that food. Otherwise it's more likely to

just move along in the digestive system and not do a whole lot of good. The

bile from the gallbladder, if only two ounces, will be providing the

equivalent of ten to sixteen ounces of bile coming directly from the liver.

IF the liver is producing thirty-two ounces in a day then the shot from the

gallbladder will mean a lot towards the digestion of foods, with fats,

within an hour or two after eating.

The method by which the gallbladder gets filled is a pretty interesting bit

of operation too. There is a sphincter valve called the sphincter of Oddi

located at the end of the common bile duct that will close off and then the

bile will just backup into the gallbladder until it is full. This happens by

hormone signals telling the valve to open and close. For those people

suffering from the symptoms of gallstone but not having gallstones then it

is quite possible that they have a problem with this particular valve

staying closed and causing back pressure on the liver and gallbladder. So,

as you can see from this, the bile would have just passed on by the

gallbladder and not have gone into it if the valve was open. It can also act

as a signaling means to have the liver produce or not produce it.

http://www.muschealth.com/ddc/dise/sph.htm

http://arbl.cvmbs.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/digestion/liver/bacid_hormon

es.html

This is relatively new to the science of how the signaling works.

Living without a gallbladder is quite possible and millions of people have

had that opportunity to do so with many more being added to that list each

day. However, not everyone is as fortunate with the process as they may have

hoped as there may have been more diverse reasons as to just why they were

having troubles in the first place and the surgery may not have taken care

of the root cause. Those suffer from other bile related conditions.

http://www.newhomemaker.com/health/gallbladder.html

http://www.druginfonet.com/faq/faqgall.htm

http://www.curezone.com/gallstones/FAQ_pain_without_gallbaldder.asp

http://www.bidmc.harvard.edu/surgery/general/indexLaparoscopicCholecystectom

y.html

It takes some weighing of the facts to make a life long decision such as the

removal of an organ as it just can't be put back in and made to work after

it's out, excepting some planned transplant of an organ.

Dale

[Guest guest]

At 07:22 01.06.2002 +0000, you wrote:

>info that forms the question: Liver can produce up to a quart of bile

>a day. Gallbladder is the size of a man's thumb. Bile is stored in

>First question, how much bile

>can the gb hold? I am thinking a few ounces.

The main function of the gallbladder is to concentrate and to store bile.

Bile ducts can also do the same thing, but without gallbladder, capacity to

concentrate and capacity to store bile is severely decreased.

The gallbladder, which has a capacity of 50 milliliters (average) (about 5

tablespoons), concentrates the bile 10 fold by removing water and stores it

until a person eats. At this time, bile is discharged from the gallbladder

via the cystic duct into the common bile duct and then into the duodenum

(the first part of the small intestine), where it begins to dissolve the

fat in ingested food.

Average does not mean YOU! Because of biodiversity, some people may have

capacity of 150 ml, and others may have capacity of 25ml.

Once it is removed, bile ducts will have to overtake gallbladder function,

what may result in many unnecessary problems like: enlarged bile ducts,

fatty liver, intrahepatic stones, problems with the " sphincter of odi " ,

chronic diarrhea, IBS, other chronic problems ...

Some researchers estimate that 15% of people without gallbladder ends up

with chronic diarrhea, indigestion and malabsorption of fats.

The liver's cells (hepatocytes) excrete bile into canaliculi, which are

intercellular spaces between the liver cells. These drain into the right

and left hepatic ducts, after which bile travels via the common hepatic and

cystic ducts to the gallbladder.

The liver excretes approximately 500 to 1000 milliliters (50 to 100

tablespoons) of bile each day.

Most (95%) of the bile that has entered the intestines is resorbed in the

last part of the small intestine (known as the terminal ileum), and

returned to the liver for reuse.

There are many ways to improve gallbladder function, other then removing a

gallbladder.

(healthy diet, liver flush, castor oil packs, shiatsu, reflexotherapy,

gradual liver cleanse, liver herbs (nettle, burdock, dandelion, milk

thistles, ... )

Agnes

[Guest guest]

Some researchers estimate that 15% of people without gallbladder ends up

with chronic diarrhea, indigestion and malabsorption of fats.

The liver's cells (hepatocytes) excrete bile into canaliculi, which are

intercellular spaces between the liver cells. These drain into the right

and left hepatic ducts, after which bile travels via the common hepatic and

cystic ducts to the gallbladder.

____________________

Agnes, I know someone with the diarrhea problem, which is severe now since

she's had her GB out. She really tried diet for a few months and never knew

about the cleanses. She told me that if she had known, she would definitely

have tried it. Now she can't eat the foods she once loved even before the GB

surgery, like many, many vegetables -- lettuce, she can't eat lettuce because

it tears her up instantly.

As a matter of fact, her daughter just almost died from her GB surgery, and

she was in her early 30s. It caused her to have bile leaking out inside her,

and she had to spend a month in the hospital and have another surgery.

Susie

[Guest guest]

Dawn,

If you go a long time between meals and the gb becomes full of bile

the rest of the bile waits in the liver and in the ducting. The

common duct, cystic duct, and liver ducts hold the bile as well as

the gb until you eat something and the hormones within your body

opens the muscle at the end of your common duct (sphincter of oddi

muscle) and allows the bile to go into the gastrointestinal area.

Whatever bile is not used will reabsorb into the small intestine and

return to the liver.

Dawn, if you have gallstone colic you should really study what this

is all about. Your body is important enough to study about isn't it?

Especially when it has pain. There are hundreds of liver sites to

study online and even a doctor can explain it to you with pictures.

The reservoir of the gb is a secondary organ that aides in the

digestion process by making sure the food has enough (or more bile

and concentrated) bile coming to it to help break it down for

digestion and ingestion. Without the gb there is sufficent amounts of

bile from the liver and waiting in the common duct to aid in

digestion in most cases. As far as my post-surgery experience I have

been one of the 95% lucky enough to have absolutely no problems or

pain with eating anything at anytime that I chose. I eat smaller

meals now because it is something everyone should be doing to be

healthy anyway but I have also eaten large fatty meals with no

problems. I'm much more diet conscience because of the dieting tips

in this group but I do have the freedom of choice again. Gallbladder

or not, I want to be healthy and happy. Everyone in here has that

same goal I guess.

In my opinion it is easier to live without the gb if it is beyond the

tolerance of pain levels and personal happiness. You can live without

your gb but not with constant pain or even in some cases the freedom

to not worry about eating foods.

Of course it is better to have the gb. God gave it to you to help

digest your food. No organ is without purpose but some are more

critical than others. The appendix is still a mystery but it must be

there for a reason. The gb makes digestion easier especially with

fatty food intake. Keep it if you can but don't live miserably just

to do that. Make it healthy to get the pain out. If you can't do that

then you will reach another road with options like medication,

lithotripsy or even surgery.

Surgery is one thing that is looked at as a 'failure' in a

gallbladder flush group but in some cases it is better for your

health and happiness to remove it. Especially if it is really in bad

shape and can not get healthy by dieting and flushing. Some people

are able to control their gb pain for years on end but that could

only be a bandaide to true health and happiness. Personal choice is

always up to your own health and happiness.

I personally gave the alternative method of flushing 4 months or 8

flush attempts and still had colic which was getting worse no matter

how better I was dieting in the process. I wanted to keep my gb too

but now that I have seen it in my very own hands in the state of pre-

disease that it was advanced to, I feel that I did the right thing by

removing it for my own health and happiness. I now have the freedom

to live 'outside' my body again instead of 'inside' all the time. I

was always worrying about the food I was eating. If it would cause

pain or not, etc. Life isn't enjoyed in that way in my opinion.

Freedom to eat is like freedom to breath for me. I like choices and

freedom and painfree living. Wanna share a pizza? :-)

Good luck in your search.

Barry.

> OK, I was waiting to read all the posts before I aked this

question,

> but this sentiment is what brings me to it. I have read the

following

> info that forms the question: Liver can produce up to a quart of

bile

> a day. Gallbladder is the size of a man's thumb. Bile is stored in

> gallbladder and used when we eat fat. First question, how much bile

> can the gb hold? I am thinking a few ounces. Does all of the bile

go

> through the gb before it hits the small intestine? I also have read

> that the bile is reabsorbed by the body whether before or after

> surgery. But here is my real question. If all of the bile does not

go

> through the gb and the body reabsorbs the excess, then what

> difference does it make if we have a gb or not? I know I sound

> like a heretic, but as I am now considering seeing a surgeon

(haven't

> actually made an appointment) I want to know this answer. Because

if

> we produce up to a quart, and only a few ounces go to the gb, and

all

> the rest is reabsorbed, then it SEEMS like it is easier to live

> without the gb than I have been willing to admit. Acknowledging of

> course, that there are people injured in surgery, people who still

> have problems after surgery, etc. Dawn

>

> Sad

> > thing about the surgery is that now there is no where for that

bile

> > stuff to go. I've heard it leaks onto the intestines and that

> they've

> > done a study and found there is a higher link between colon

cancer

> > and gallbladder surgery. Great.

> > D

[Guest guest]

>>. Does all of the bile go

through the gb before it hits the small intestine?<<

No, the majority of it does not.

Debra

_________________________________________________________________

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

[Guest guest]

I am doing 5 of the 7 you recommended. The continued search for the

health of my gallbladder is consuming most of my time. I am trying to

not let is also consume my emotions and thoughts, but it is hard when

you are popping capsules of some kind or another almost every hour of

the day. Dawn

>

>

> There are many ways to improve gallbladder function, other then

removing a

> gallbladder.

> (healthy diet, liver flush, castor oil packs, shiatsu,

reflexotherapy,

> gradual liver cleanse, liver herbs (nettle, burdock, dandelion, milk

> thistles, ... )

>

>

>

> Agnes

[Guest guest]

Only if it's all veggies and no cheese. Maybe in a few weeks one

way or the other I can add cheese back. Dawn

Let me tell ya, I hear the song you were singing. Freedom has its

merits.

> Freedom to eat is like freedom to breath for me. I like choices and

> freedom and painfree living. Wanna share a pizza? :-)

>

> Good luck in your search.

>

> Barry.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dawn,

I know what you mean about 'being addicted' to your pain-avoidance

and internal organ. I was exactly the same way. I was always

thinking 'inwardly' about my stone and also worried everytime I ate

anything. I was in prison by the potential pain attacks that came 2

or 3 times a week no matter what I ate. I was depressed in my work

and family life and it was effecting every area of my happiness and

life. My work even started to suffer because of it. I lost 15 lbs and

looked like I had AIDS as I walked into ER at 3 AM to get yet another

shot to stop the horrific pain attacks.

You will reach the point where you will have to decide on your own

personal health and happiness (physically and mentally). 'Lesser of

the two evils " . Make sense?

Good luck with your attempts at flushing and ridding yourself of

colic pain. Hopefully you can do that and keep your gb but don't feel

like a failure if you can't. Your own happiness and health is more

important than anyones opinion about what you do.

Barry.

> I am doing 5 of the 7 you recommended. The continued search for the

> health of my gallbladder is consuming most of my time. I am trying

to

> not let is also consume my emotions and thoughts, but it is hard

when

> you are popping capsules of some kind or another almost every hour

of

> the day. Dawn

>

> >

> >

> > There are many ways to improve gallbladder function, other then

> removing a

> > gallbladder.

> > (healthy diet, liver flush, castor oil packs, shiatsu,

> reflexotherapy,

> > gradual liver cleanse, liver herbs (nettle, burdock, dandelion,

milk

> > thistles, ... )

> >

> >

> >

> > Agnes

[Guest guest]

All veggies without cheese is not called 'pizza'. It's only veggies

on bread. haha

Freedom does have it's merits. Especially when you mean eating food

which is a basic neccessity for health and happiness.

> Only if it's all veggies and no cheese. Maybe in a few weeks

one

> way or the other I can add cheese back. Dawn

>

> Let me tell ya, I hear the song you were singing. Freedom has its

> merits.

>

>

> > Freedom to eat is like freedom to breath for me. I like choices

and

> > freedom and painfree living. Wanna share a pizza? :-)

> >

> > Good luck in your search.

> >

> > Barry.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >