Re: pain relief and thoughts/questions on cleansing

May 24, 2002

I am also trying to avoid any allergenic foods that would cause an

attack. If any of you on this group besides Suzanne have long term

success, IE avoided surgery and have no more pain and are maitaining

with infrequent cleansing, I would sure like to hear about it. My

resolve is weakening. Thanks, Dawn

Dawn, I'm fine so far, but I take a day at a time on it. Make sure that your

bowels move very regularly. That is important. You might check out Dr.

Cabot's diet at liverdoctor.com.

Hope it gets better!

Susie

May 24, 2002

<< feel like I am opening to the option of surgery and it is really upsetting

to me. However I have wondered if I am going through a cleansing crisis. Many

health gurus say things can get a lot worse before they get better. What do

you think?>>

Hi Dawn:

It's difficult to sit back and listen to your stories of difficulty and not

have something to offer, but I simply don't, in the way of relief. I do have

some comments though about a healing crisis. I have read a lot about them as

they relate to fasting, diet, and cleansing and have experienced several,

from rashes, to a boil, to fever, to an overall weakness (third day of " the

rice " diet - nothing but fruit and rice), and a few other things. But what

you are experiencing seems to me to relate to one specific thing, - a

difficult gall bladder. I don't think that it fits into the " general "

category of a healing crisis per se, and my opinion is to not ignore it and

think that it will get worse before it gets better. A ruptured gall bladder

can bring on an even bigger problem. I know that the majority of folks on

this list do not support surgery, but if at some point if nothing else has

worked, then maybe, just maybe, it would at least be worth a consultation

with your physician to get their opinion as to where you are at. Even an

alternative N. D. or homeopathic practitioner may be an option, but it sounds

to me as if you need some answers.

Just my opinion.

Jay

May 24, 2002

<<....oxyplus list and try talking to saul. he is a chiropractor, and has

administered thousands of these flushes to people. i think if anyone will be

able to help you save your g.b. it will be him....>>

Talking to a chiropractor about a gall bladder is like talking to a carpenter

about rewiring your house. Just because he's administered the flushes

doesn't mean that he has one iota of medical training. I was a long-term

chiropractor visitor and supporter, until they got into areas they have no

business being and until an MD, in one visit, identified my " back " problem

and gave me simple stretching exercises to cure it. Something I had been to

chiropractors for, for at least 30 years. I didn't have a back problem, but

they couldn't figure it out. I had piriformis syndrome, a condition which

affects the sciatic nerve. Since the MD visit 4 years ago, I haven't had one

back problem at all!

Chiropractors are a dime a dozen and they have to branch out into magnets or

MLM garbage (I know some who have, because they starve otherwise)

just to pay the rent. Chiropractors get less medical training that MD's get

nutrition training, and that ain't much.

Jay

May 24, 2002

<<jay:

before you judge the man, talk to him.>>

I didn't judge the " man " - I commented on the profession. A chiropractor has

no medical training.

Many folks on this list have correctly advised people to " listen to your

body. " Pain, and intense pain is your body trying to tell you something.

The pain is there for a reason. Through one of nature's cruel quirks, there

are people who don't experience pain - and their life can be a living hell.

An MD can do ultrasound and other tests without doing surgery which

chiropractors can't. A physician can give an evaluation that a chiropractor

can't. That doesn't mean you have to follow thier advice (I've ignored them

many times), but by ignoring the pain because someone suggests that it's

simply a " healing crisis " is nuts!

Barry is an excellent example of a person who did everything in their power

to deal with gall stones via the flush, and it didn't work for him. When a

person is in the kind of pain that Dawn has reported, a dime a dozen

chiropractor is not the answer.

Jay

May 24, 2002

any folks on this list have correctly advised people to " listen to your

body. " Pain, and intense pain is your body trying to tell you something.

The pain is there for a reason.

_______________

Dawn, another thing would be to get you some Beta-TCP, which helps you deal

with this, it thins the bile and helps it pass easily, and also take

magnesium caps of some kind. There are healthy fats that are actually

required to stay healthy, which Dr. Cabot explains, and Dale damaged his

liver going completely without fats. The healthy fats are also what has

helped me, plus Dr. Cabot's diet, plus magnesium and Beta-TCP! But everyone

is different. It wouldn't hurt to try, anyway.

Susie

May 24, 2002

<<i'll let your words speak for themselves.>>

Please do. A chiropractic degree is the easiest of all the healing arts

degrees to obtain and requires an average level of intelligence. There is

nothing wrong with that, but that's why there are so many of them. When they

go into practice and realize that they can't make a living, they then branch

out into areas for which they have absolutely no training. Again. I know.

I have known a few on a social level.

Speaking of chiropractors this was written:

<<...i don't know what he will say. he might recommend surgery.>>

You gotta be kidding! A chiropractor making a surgical decision? On what

basis? And via the Internet? The Internet is both a blessing and a curse,

and in this instance it isn't a blessing. Now I will judge this man. Any

chiropractor that can make a surgery or no surgery decision over the Internet

without ever having any medical training is a downright fraud!

Jay

May 24, 2002

<<bashing Chiropractors-in several of your other posts-because of your sorry

experience with them, is not helpful. .....But your diatribe is obvious for

what it is...bitter ranting.....>>

Anytime they are pointed to in areas outside of their training, I will " bash "

(your words, not mine) them. I have been to more chiropractors than I care

to remember, beginning in the 1930s, and let me inform you that they are not

what they once were. They get their shingle out and then think they have a

license to do anything they want. Today their shelves are filled with MLM

garbage for areas they know nothing about, but " prescribe " it to you so that

they can line their pockets. When they stay within the bounds of their

training, I have no problem with them, but even then they are in fact bone

crushers. I once worked with a man who processed claims for the Veteran's

Administration and he indicated that the public would be shocked if they knew

how many bones these guys break. They are particularly skillful in breaking

the spurs on vertebrae.

If what I write about these guys is " bitter ranting " then please respond

directly to what I write.

Jay

May 24, 2002

have you tried doing another flush to relieve the pain?

May 24, 2002

also:

go to the oxyplus list and try talking to saul. he is a chiropractor, and has

administered thousands of these flushes to people. i think if anyone will be

able to help you save your g.b. it will be him. i have a feeling that he will

tell you what i am saying, but give it a whirl, you don't have much to lose at

this point.

May 24, 2002

jay:

before you judge the man, talk to him.

May 24, 2002

Hi Dawn,

I have one thought I can share regarding what can bring on an attack. Two weeks

before my GB surgery- and remember, I hadn't done any liver cleansing until

after surgery-I was not able to tolerate any kind of food containing fat or

protein. Protein can bring on an attack as well. I'm guessing,( I could be

wrong), but your liver/gallbladder secretes bile when you eat protein, maybe not

as much as when you eat fat, but if you have a stone stuck somewhere, any amount

of bile trying to pass by the stone could cause pain.

Sorry I'm not much help as far as your other concerns go.

Adrienne

azdmarie <nortons@...> wrote: Yesterday I did nothing I can think of to

bring on attack. Ate fruit and veggie juices for breakfast and lunch. Had whole

wheat pasta salad with veggies. I originally made it with chicken for my family.

I took it all out, but may have eaten a couple of small pieces.

---------------------------------

May 24, 2002

'a dime a dozen chiropractor'

'i didn't judge the man'

i'll let your words speak for themselves.

anyway, i don't want to make this about you. i stand by my recommendation. i

hope dawn at least talks to him. i don't know what he will say. he might

recommend surgery. dawn's experience and barry's might be different. i pray that

she can keep her g.b. i never made an estimation of healing crisis. as far as i

am concerned, barry did not do the cleanses properly. if you read my posts to

him very carefully he skirted around some of the questions i asked him. again,

this is not about barry, it's about helping dawn keep her gall bladder.

i still don't buy barry's theory about different types of stones. i still have

my gall bladder. and i think without these cleanses it would be a gonner. i am

not trivializing dawn's situation. it is very serious. she obviously needs to do

something fast.

if i were in her shoes i would:

talk to saul

have the surgeon on standby for safety,

and then keep doing the cleanses (properly-- with the prescribed amount of epsom

salts. not like barry's solution which was to eat alot of fat in the middle of

an attack. and possibly not doing enough of the cleanses to save his gall

bladder)

and i would do them as often as i could until i felt like i passed a stone or

stones that was the culprit.

then if this didn't work i would pray, and then have surgery as the last step.

May 24, 2002

Hi again Dawn,

I'm sorry to hear about your continual colic attacks. I can offer

some suggestions before you 'throw in the towel' on your tolerance

level. I did everything I felt I could before finally getting the

thing out but I can give you some tips while you keep it in and try

to live with the pain. I'm one of the lucky ones (like you) who got

to experience the hard colic attacks on a regular basis no matter how

perfect my dieting was.

Some gallbladders are shot beyond repair and no amount of strict

dieting can bring them back. Mine was also effected by hereditary

factors and once it had reached a certain 'pre-diseased' state it was

probably impossible to heal. I could have lived the rest of my life

on a strict diet, plus flushing forever, and the pain would have been

haunting me everytime I ate something. I reached the point of

personal tolerance, happiness, and even health for my body and did

the 'evil' deed of giving up my organ to the knife and to the good of

the medical reseach department. haha If you do go for the 'last'

option I can only tell you that it really is not a big deal as far as

the surgery goes and the freedom to eat whatever and whenever you

want is a liberating feeling that can only be described by us

gallbladderless flushers. You will think outwardly again instead of

always inwardly. This is hard to explain. The gb is not a lung or

kidney so if you really have to give up that bile reservoir you can

rest assured that there is really life after removal. By the way,

thank God I am one of the 95% of the people who have absolutely no

problems with eating, digesting, colon action, etc post-surgery.

BUT, in the mean time, let's try to help you keep it. My colic was

coming 3 to 4 times a week usually in the middle of the night lasting

from 2 to 3 hours. Antispasmodic pills worked at first and the pain

would leave in 10 minutes. After a while they weren't effective

anymore and I needed to run over to ER to get the same medicine

injected into my vains to stop the pain. Antispasmodic would stop the

gb from contracting and allow the big stone to drop back out of the

mouth of the gb and bring instant relief. At this point I must again

stress that you need an ultrasound to show what your body is doing.

You have mentioned that it is (expensive) so I am guessing that you

don't have insurance coverage. If you have coverage you can go into

ER in the middle of an attack and they will do an ultrasound that

would be covered by insurance as emergency. If you don't have

coverage you should find a way to check what size the stone is and

see if there are other stones in the cystic and common ducts.

Whatever it takes. Some people without insurance can go into a

medical school and get a ultrasound done cheaply by a student. You

can then ask a radiologist or your doctor what is happening inside.

Some radiologist centers can discount the price if you can talk them

into doing it without the run around of going through the doctor.

Tell them you are only wanting to monitor your flushes and they may

do it for you on a slow day. Everyone can use the money. :-)

Anyway, back to the help. Eating like you have described may or may

not help your colic. Make sure that your bowel movements are regular.

If your digestive system slows down, bowel movements are slow like

every other day, then the food will build up and cause more colic.

I'm not sure why this is but with a clear colon the food seems to

move down faster and the need for bile is somehow not as powerful.

Keep it all moving helped me to avoid the pain. Going outside and

walking fast also helped but sometimes it didn't.

I really believe you have a big stone in the gb like I had. You can

ask your doctor about Lithotripsy instead of surgery. This will crush

the stone(s) with ultra-sonic waves in about one hours time and the

pain will stop for good or until you create another stone that may

cause the same types of colic pain. You must be a candidate for this

procedure and the machine has to be available in your area.

Lithotripsy is mainly used to crush kidney stones but they are using

them for gallstones now too. Once you crush the stones into pieces a

good flush or two should clear them out. They want to keep you

on 'stone-reducing' medication (Actigal) for one year to desolve

those smaller pieces but I think a couple of flushes would remove

them faster. They crush down to small sand or 1mm at most in size.

To be a candidate for Lithotripsy you need to have less then 4 stones

none being over 1cm in size. Also the gallstone must be of the

cholesterol type (90% are anyway) instead of the calcium type.

Hope this helps in some way Dawn. Good luck. I know what it's like to

have that kind of pain. At least a baby is only once every 9 months

and not 4 mights a week. haha I don't know what having a baby is like

but now I believe I have some idea.

Be healthy and happy.

Barry.

> This is long.

>

> I had an attack on Wed after a trip to the big city. We live in the

> sticks and went to Mesa for the day. I have had a near perfect diet

> for several weeks now. I decided to have a turkey sub on wheat with

> lots of veggies would be all right. I also had a York peppermint

> pattie. That is my treat because it only has 3 grams of fat, but I

> rarely have it. Anyway, those must have been enough for an attack.

> Took my demerol, did a castor oil pack, ended up getting up and

> getting in the hot bath. Got through it. Yesterday I did nothing I

> can think of to bring on attack. Ate fruit and veggie juices for

> breakfast and lunch. Had whole wheat pasta salad with veggies. I

> originally made it with chicken for my family. I took it all out,

but

> may have eaten a couple of small pieces. Well, when it started, I

was

> so discouraged. I could tell it was coming on hard. My stomach felt

> like a rock. I finally decided in total desperation to skip the

> demerol and do the hot cold treatment recommended by Dr. Schulze. I

> probably did it for 10 minutes. My husband came up after the second

> cold treatment because I was screaming. He thought I was in agony,

I

> was just freezing. After 10 minutes the pain and attack was gone.

> Now, I was full in, at the stage I usually take the pain meds. I

did

> go ahead and take an extremely hot bath to soothe my emotions more

> than anything.

>

> I feel like I am opening to the option of surgery and it is really

> upsetting to me. However I have wondered if I am going through a

> cleansing crisis. Many health gurus say things can get a lot worse

> before they get better. What do you think?

>

> I found this website about using diet to dissolve stones

> http://www.chem-tox.com/gallstones/ I thought it might be helpful.

I

> have lived these priciples about 75% of my life and the last few

> months closer to 90%. Dietarily, accept for sugars and meat, I do

not

> understand why I am going through this. I guess it doesn't matter

if

> I understand or not. I had my amalgams all removed about 5 1/2

years

> ago.

>

> I feel like now, I have no choice but to be perfect with the

dietary

> guidelines outlined above. I am toying with the idea of doing about

> 70% juicing. I am intrigued by 's experinces with that. It

> ocurred to me that FOR ME I should be having acceptable oils with

> every one of my meals. I think I am building up to much pressure

> during the day and then when I do eat some fat, it just throws me

> into an attack.

>

> That first attack the other night I took some ES at the beginning

and

> when it was over took some olive oil in grapefruit juice. Next day

> saw stones. Last night did not take ES, but took some olive oil and

> lemon juice and this morning noticed some larger and smaller stones

> in my stool. Sorry for being graphic.

>

> I am also trying to avoid any allergenic foods that would cause an

> attack. If any of you on this group besides Suzanne have long term

> success, IE avoided surgery and have no more pain and are

maitaining

> with infrequent cleansing, I would sure like to hear about it. My

> resolve is weakening. Thanks, Dawn

May 24, 2002

Hi Jay,

Just wanted to respond to a couple statements in this post and another recent

one.

I don't think you were suggesting that Dawn's GB was about to rupture, but I

think the way you stated it, could possibly be taken that way. I personally

know someone who survived a ruptured GB. He'd been sent home from the ER,

misdiagnosed as having the flu!!!!!!! He suffered severe vomiting, high fever,

and unrelenting pain, for several days just prior to his GB rupturing. Although

I agree that she would benefit from receiving some competant professional

advice, bashing Chiropractors-in several of your other posts-because of your

sorry experience with them, is not helpful. I might even agree with you that

Chiropractors would do better if they stuck to doing " Chiropractic " and not

branch off into other areas. But your diatribe is obvious for what it

is...bitter ranting. I mean no offense.