Re: Cat Scan and chest x-ray radiation exposure

[Guest guest]

It seems that many on this and probably other Alternative oriented lists, and

that's what this list is, would come to the conclusion that ongoing and

'regular' CT and PET or X-Rays are detrimental to one's health. Radiologists

readily agree that these scans can cause cancer but throw the 'benefit to risk'

pitch at we patients. We're not talking getting a scan to determine one's

situation for how does one determine what their course of action is to be

without knowing what they are dealing with? That one scan is different from

'regular' scans.

I look at things differently and would not, under any circumstance, get a

CT-Scan because of an ache or pain somewhere.

We all know people that cannot get into one of those contraptions for the

slightest reason and one I know averages 3 a year and for a host of reasons and

never has she ever discussed her reservation about getting them. That tells me

the doctors just go ahead and order them willy nilly. Some doctors are solid

citizens and do care. When having a serious back situation I was considering

the need for an MRI and this GP of mine said, " Let's do the poor man's MRI " and

he proceeded to twist and bend my leg determining that I would benefit from

Physical Therapy. It worked! Some other character would have had me being

bombarded with something or other.

has helped me change my mind over getting CAT-Scans and he's right about

the percentages of getting cancer from one scan being less important than

knowing what is going on. However one would probably do well to first

determine the absolute need first.

Joe C.

From: Prem Carol

I agree. In my experience with myself and counseling others, CT scans done on a

regular basis can catch a small metastasis or if not, allow it to grow and then

manageability becomes extremely difficult.

I have heard that miso soup and ashwagandha ginseng as well as epsom salt baths

are good ways to help cleanse the system afterwards.

Hope this helps.

In health,

Carol

> >

> > I heard with one cat scan is like getting 400 chest x-rays.

> > Thoughts - comments

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

Just to clarify, when dealing with a stage 4 cancer and wanting to check if it

is remaining in remission, then regular cat scans can be helpful.

In my own case they caught something very tiny that needed addressing that I

never even felt.

In another case I have counseled, similar situation, the person refused ct scans

and is now into a huge recurrence which could have been managed earlier but was

not caught. In end stages right now.

Of course, I plan to try and taper off timing and expand time inbetween them

when possible, but I don't see any other alternative except trying to get rid of

the bad effects as quickly as possible and stay so healthy that I wouldn't need

them as often.

Just my own experience and opinion.

Carol

[Guest guest]

Hi Carol,

I'm so glad that things are working out for you.

I also know a few stage 4 women whose mets were caught very early which in turn

led to good results with chemo/hormonals.

It all boils down to people deciding how they want to handle their own health

and what risks they are willing to take.

My best to you,

ar

>

>

> Hi All,

> Just to clarify, when dealing with a stage 4 cancer and wanting to check if it

is remaining in remission, then regular cat scans can be helpful.

> In my own case they caught something very tiny that needed addressing that I

never even felt.

> In another case I have counseled, similar situation, the person refused ct

scans and is now into a huge recurrence which could have been managed earlier

but was not caught. In end stages right now.

> Of course, I plan to try and taper off timing and expand time inbetween them

when possible, but I don't see any other alternative except trying to get rid of

the bad effects as quickly as possible and stay so healthy that I wouldn't need

them as often.

> Just my own experience and opinion.

> Carol

>

[Guest guest]

The reason most have joined this list is because we are looking for 'more' than

Conventional Medicine can provide considering the generally accepted fact that

the " good results " from Conventional Treatments are actually appalling when

people are at stage IV. It is difficult to remain positive when in this kind

of discussion however, most people at Stage IV know their situation and

especially if involved with this list. It is readily admitted by the Medical

Establishment that " all treatments for Metastatic Breast Cancer is palliative " .

None of us are children here and we know what we are dealing with so there is no

need to mince words.

One has to examine what " good results " are. There are medical cases for which

there is no explanation when 'Spontaneous Remission' ensues which it does do.

There are Medical professionals that, because of Spontaneous Remission are

re-thinking the 'heroic' treatments in favor of a 'wait and see' approach but it

is doubtful this will happen too much because physicians are locked into using

the 'Standard of Care' as prescribed by their peers.

We can all go to site after site and read and re-read the findings and when one

looks at the numbers objectively, the Failure Of The War On Cancer is obvious.

We cannot even attribute the small gains as having come from aggressive

treatments because there are too many variables.

Having " caught " Mets early may be early as regards the Mets but it is still

stage IV and that is not early as is finding out one is Stage 1.

Yes, it usually does boil down to one deciding but often that is because of

family and friend pressure but in most cases, it is because people know of no

other course to take. People, such as we are, are in the tiny minority while

the majority of cancer patients haven't the slightest idea about Alternative

practices other than the propaganda fed them. If the risk one was about to

take was made with knowledge of all the facts that is one thing. Unfortunately

one must be strong and informed to counter what the radiologist or the

Oncologist is going to lay on them. Yes, Scans can often be more than just

useful as they can provide needed information but this does not apply to every

situation and there are other diagnostics to explore depending upon the

situation which is why I usually end with, 'people need to work with someone

that knows what works and what doesn't' and doing it ourselves? At stages III

and IV? Not wise at all.

Are there exceptions? Of course but that like the statement, " I know someone "

and then we get an explanation about this result this " someone " had. Would you

set your ship on a course based upon a " someone " ? I don't think so.

My reason for writing, though I do not have Breast Cancer.........and most men

do not ever get it, is because sometimes this list drifts towards an almost

acceptance of Conventional practices and its original purpose was hardly that.

There are many lists that further Conventional beliefs but this is not one of

them and while discussion of these subjects can be valuable, and helpful, it

is also necessary to come back to the original reason for our being while

stating some facts that may not be pleasant but about which most of us are

aware. By the same token practitioners, like , have opened our eyes to

the sometimes benefits of conventional practices when properly combined with

Alternative.

I will end this with my favorite applicable quote: " Information is your best

friend " and my own thought...........Keep an open mind but not so open that your

brains fall out. Don't jump because a Joe or a Barbara, or a Jane says so.

Research and only act when you are persuaded the course you are about to take is

the one you want to take. You must be comfortable with what you do.

Joe C.

From: arlynsg

Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2010 6:43 PM

Subject: [ ] Re: Cat Scan and chest x-ray radiation exposure

Hi Carol,

I'm so glad that things are working out for you.

I also know a few stage 4 women whose mets were caught very early which in turn

led to good results with chemo/hormonals.

It all boils down to people deciding how they want to handle their own health

and what risks they are willing to take.

My best to you,

ar

>

>

> Hi All,

> Just to clarify, when dealing with a stage 4 cancer and wanting to check if it

is remaining in remission, then regular cat scans can be helpful.

> In my own case they caught something very tiny that needed addressing that I

never even felt.

> In another case I have counseled, similar situation, the person refused ct

scans and is now into a huge recurrence which could have been managed earlier

but was not caught. In end stages right now.

> Of course, I plan to try and taper off timing and expand time inbetween them

when possible, but I don't see any other alternative except trying to get rid of

the bad effects as quickly as possible and stay so healthy that I wouldn't need

them as often.

> Just my own experience and opinion.

> Carol

>

[Guest guest]

Hi again,

I agree that if there are good alternatives we should take them, but we must

keep inquiring what they are and stay on top of things.

Sometimes we have to compromise alternative and traditional and as you point

out,we on this list,myself included, do not like that. For years I was only

totally alternative. But I have learned to be more flexible when needed, and

that can be important sometimes!

As long as we are getting the help that we need, we can be assured we are on the

right track. Awareness of other options is always great!

Carol

[Guest guest]

You know my CT scan said the tumor was coming from the ovary - and it was not.

Also, it never picked up another tumor that was pretty large - the size of a

baseball. Even the doctor told me he typically finds something different then

what the scan was showing.

> >

> >

> > Hi All,

> > Just to clarify, when dealing with a stage 4 cancer and wanting to check if

it is remaining in remission, then regular cat scans can be helpful.

> > In my own case they caught something very tiny that needed addressing that I

never even felt.

> > In another case I have counseled, similar situation, the person refused ct

scans and is now into a huge recurrence which could have been managed earlier

but was not caught. In end stages right now.

> > Of course, I plan to try and taper off timing and expand time inbetween them

when possible, but I don't see any other alternative except trying to get rid of

the bad effects as quickly as possible and stay so healthy that I wouldn't need

them as often.

> > Just my own experience and opinion.

> > Carol

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, Joe. However, keeping an open mind means looking at the advances in

conventional medicine, too. There have been some great advances and I think

that labeling all conventional medicine as bad is not going to get us anywhere.

I think that living with mets for 10 or 15 years is exceptional - whether the

person used alternative medicine or conventional. There are new treatments

available that do really work for some or many.

Many join this list because they want to learn about alternatives and what they

can do to combine alternative with conventional. I think that limiting what we

can talk about will reduce the list to something far less informative. There

are no great new studies or discoveries happening with alternative medicine.

And we've lost some of our greatest thinkers. That's a lot of great thinking

pressure put on !

Just my two cents, but I will certainly entertain conversations about all types

of cancer treatments. Variety is what will keep the list moving forward and

being interesting. I also don't think that the small bits of conventional

conversations deters anyone from alternative medicine. Instead, they help

people to make better informed choices, in my opinion.

ar

> My reason for writing, though I do not have Breast Cancer.........and most men

do not ever get it, is because sometimes this list drifts towards an almost

acceptance of Conventional practices and its original purpose was hardly that.

There are many lists that further Conventional beliefs but this is not one of

them and while discussion of these subjects can be valuable, and helpful, it

is also necessary to come back to the original reason for our being while

stating some facts that may not be pleasant but about which most of us are

aware. By the same token practitioners, like , have opened our eyes to

the sometimes benefits of conventional practices when properly combined with

Alternative.

>

> I will end this with my favorite applicable quote: " Information is your best

friend " and my own thought...........Keep an open mind but not so open that your

brains fall out. Don't jump because a Joe or a Barbara, or a Jane says so.

Research and only act when you are persuaded the course you are about to take is

the one you want to take. You must be comfortable with what you do.

>

> Joe C.

[Guest guest]

Do you know people living with mets for 10 or 15 years?

Thanks, Robyn

________________________________

From: arlynsg <arlynsg@...>

Sent: Wed, June 2, 2010 5:33:32 AM

Subject: [ ] Re: Cat Scan and chest x-ray radiation exposure

Yes, Joe. However, keeping an open mind means looking at the advances in

conventional medicine, too. There have been some great advances and I think

that labeling all conventional medicine as bad is not going to get us anywhere.

I think that living with mets for 10 or 15 years is exceptional - whether the

person used alternative medicine or conventional. There are new treatments

available that do really work for some or many.

Many join this list because they want to learn about alternatives and what they

can do to combine alternative with conventional. I think that limiting what we

can talk about will reduce the list to something far less informative. There

are no great new studies or discoveries happening with alternative medicine.

And we've lost some of our greatest thinkers. That's a lot of great thinking

pressure put on !

Just my two cents, but I will certainly entertain conversations about all types

of cancer treatments. Variety is what will keep the list moving forward and

being interesting. I also don't think that the small bits of conventional

conversations deters anyone from alternative medicine. Instead, they help

people to make better informed choices, in my opinion.

ar

> My reason for writing, though I do not have Breast Cancer.........and most men

do not ever get it, is because sometimes this list drifts towards an almost

acceptance of Conventional practices and its original purpose was hardly that.

There are many lists that further Conventional beliefs but this is not one of

them and while discussion of these subjects can be valuable, and helpful, it

is also necessary to come back to the original reason for our being while

stating some facts that may not be pleasant but about which most of us are

aware. By the same token practitioners, like , have opened our eyes to

the sometimes benefits of conventional practices when properly combined with

Alternative.

>

> I will end this with my favorite applicable quote: " Information is your best

friend " and my own thought...........Keep an open mind but not so open that your

brains fall out. Don't jump because a Joe or a Barbara, or a Jane says so.

Research and only act when you are persuaded the course you are about to take is

the one you want to take. You must be comfortable with what you do.

>

> Joe C.

[Guest guest]

Yes, Robyn. I have met women with breast cancer mets who have survived longer

than 10 years.

One woman, who recently passed away, was a member of this group. She used a

combination of alternative and conventional treatments. I am not sure if she

ever did chemo, but she did do radiation when needed.

Another woman I know has used only conventional treatment with, I believe, some

complimentary medicine - acupuncture for symptom relief. She is around 15 years

as a mets survivor. Another woman was at the 8 year mark using only chemo and

hormonals, she recently passed.

Recently, someone met a woman who was a 25 year mets survivor.

We know so little about cancer. There is just no way to determine who will live

long with what treatments and who won't.

ar

>

> Do you know people living with mets for 10 or 15 years?

>

> Thanks, Robyn

[Guest guest]

Joe, for what it is worth, I agree with you about the focus of this list.

There are many, many lists for those that desire conventional medicine

choices for cancer. I have been on this list for more than a few years and

the " flavor " , if you will, has changed greatly. I assume this happened when

the list moderators and owner changed. This is too bad because I believe

that most come on this list for alternative suggestions and answers because

conventional medicine has either failed them or given them no hope. This

group, before the change, offered a tremendous amount of advice about

alternatives but now that type of information is met with conventional

medicine advice or sometimes even challenged with conventional medicine

" wisdom. "

I also know that some do not post because of the fact that posts are being

broadcast by a certain blog. For whatever reason this has not been

addressed satisfactorily.

Arlyn, I respectfully disagree with what you have said. Please let me know

the " great advances " in conventional medicine. I have seen none that are

giving any better results than what has been had in the last 40 years. Just

more dianostics, more drugs, more surgeries and more promises (just give us

ten more years!) that may or may not be safe....basically using more people

as lab rats. Conventional medicine is no longer about " cure " (and never

will be) as they have come to the convenient conclusion that there is no

cure for cancer (especially if they cannot find it) or any disease for that

matter -- if one should be cured along the way, great, but that is not their

goal. Yet, they still claim success. More money is put into their pockets

for a longer period of time if they can get people to accept the mindset of

" living with cancer " and treating it as a degenerative disease like diabetes

or heart disease. Takes the pressure off of doctors.

As far as no great strides in alternative medicine, this is not true and

again I would like to know where you are getting your information. There is

more going on than most know about. Alternative medicine has learned, the

hard way, not to build bulletin boards about possible advances. Of course

if you are talking about trials and studies then you are correct.

Alternative medicine does not have the funds for that and because of the

fiasco with studies and trials (most are useless) meaning that they are

almost never truthful or are funded by pharmaceutical companies in order to

promote their drugs, why would alternative medicine even want to play that

game and waste money? I have witnessed more than several doctors and

effective modalities try to get FDA or conventional medicine approval

thinking this would turn things around for people and for FDA cancer

protocols, only to have it blow-up in their face. They are then attacked

and made to be looked upon as " quacks " with the mantra " see, all alternative

medicine is quackery " as because the method or modality cannot be duplicated

according to the likes of conventional medicine. I and many others are

examples that alternative medicine can and does work.

The group description is very specific about what it is about and that is

alternative/natural means for cancer. It is not about conventional medicine

and to the contrary, I believe that many come on here and get discouraged

with the talk about conventional medicine. It's confusing, at best. Many

don't have the time or money to go to alternative clinics and they are

looking for answers that they can employ without the help of conventional

medicine or clinics that charge tremendous fees.

If someone believes that doing both conventional and alternative will help

them, that's great. It should always be the person's decision about what

they think will work best for them. I am not totally against using specific

conventional means IF absolutely needed. However, again, that is not what

this list is about and it concerns me that the moderators are allowing these

types of posts in the name of variety. It's not at all about censorship but

about staying on topic. If the focus of this group has indeed changed, then

I would hope that the moderators would change the forum description below to

reflect that fact.

Below is the description of this group according to the homepage:

" Alternative cancer treatments include non-harmful cancer cures and

therapies like: diet, herbs, supplements, and more for curing and preventing

cancer! We are supporting those who are afraid to try alternative

treatments. We believe in individual experience far more then we believe in

double blind placebo “studies” funded by pharmaceutical companies. We are

interested in pursuing and trying therapies that have not been accepted,

studied or researched by mainstream medicine - those that other people and

the medical community may have never heard about, or are afraid to try - the

ones that the pharmaceutical industry will never invest in because most are

natural and there is no profit to the companies. And, they don't want you to

know about or try them. Your doctor has never heard of the most of the

natural therapies that may help and/or cure you. Your doctor is not allowed

to prescribe, use or talk about alternative therapies that could help and

have the potential to cure. We are ready to take full responsibility for our

health. We want to try and find what works for each of us. We believe in

individuality, herbal medicine, clean water, clean air, unrefined oils,

whole organic foods, liver cleansing, the work of Max Gerson, Hulda ,

Rife, Hoxsey, Kelley, Dr.Beck, Weston Price, Stanislaw Burzynski,

Johanna Budwig, Gaston Naessens, Linus ing (to name a few). This group

is promoted by CureZone.org "

Yes, I am naïve enough to believe that natural/alternative medicine can and

does work; howver, much of the success does depend upon the person with the

cancer. I see the results of conventional medicine more often than I would

like and all the success of it depends upon the modalities (drugs, surgery,

radiation) and the doctor.

Be Well

Dr.L

-- In , " JoeCastron " <jcastron1@...> wrote:

There are many lists that further Conventional beliefs but this is not one

of them and while discussion of these subjects can be valuable, and

helpful, it is also necessary to come back to the original reason for our

being while stating some facts that may not be pleasant but about which most

of us are aware.

Joe C.

[Guest guest]

Ar, I hope you and others did not read into my response that I " labeled all

conventional medicine as bad " because that would be incorrect. Additionally we

were discussing Scans and cancer not " conventional medicine " and I will stand on

the accepted thought that " The War On Cancer has been a General Failure " and the

gains in treating most cancers are simply not there except for earlier diagnosis

which misleads people because finding a cancer two years earlier added on to the

expected disease progression time seems to increase that time........it doesn't.

We all are aware that a certain few cancers are more manageable today but not

the fearful group that readily become nightmares. I dispute the use of " great

advances " if it was used to discuss cancer treatments because their own

profession admits the failures. Cancer rates and deaths from cancer are

expected to increase over the years, not decrease. Wasn't it the Australian

Oncologists that arrived at the conclusion that the benefit in their country and

America only amounted to 2% of the people actually benefitting from

Chemotherapy? If you recall, that study did not make it into Main-Stream

American Media because the Cancer Industry, a name give by others, along with

the Pharmaceutical Houses that are a part of it, control advertising dollars

therefore the media..

Another example Ar, and one you are more involved with than others, is DCIS.

There was a time that DCIS was considered full-blown cancer and as bad as

anything but more knowledge has led them to believe it isn't the bad-guy it was

once thought to be. Many practitioners believe in a 'wait and see' approach

to DCIS and my wife benefitted from that because she wanted to avoid the

surgery that was being pushed thanks to a level-headed radiologist that took her

on the side and said, " don't let them do it " . That was more than 15 years ago

and yes, I realize the 'game isn't over yet' but that was her choice and we all

must make choices.

It is obvious that newer surgical techniques have improved and that would be an

area that has benefitted us as is the use of supplements physicians use

regardless of the fact their profession and the drug houses would take them from

us could they. Some of the gains in Cancer statistics are either manipulated

or have taken advantage of the fact more people quit smoking earlier and more

and more people are using supplements without their doctor's knowledge.

I stated my purpose for writing and that was the encouragement, by some, to

aggressively seek conventional treatment which I believe is not the purpose of

this list. We have all read, not often, but occasionally, statements to " do

what your Oncologist says " . In most cases that would preclude using

supplements that would help reduce the side effects of chemotherapy and in some

cases actually hasten our demise. For example when my Urologist, and I've

said this before so don't get bored, suggested the use of a certain Chemotherapy

and I responded, " I researched that and it isn't as effective as what we have

done already " , he responded, " your are right " and that ended his suggestion.

Imagine if I had not researched? Imagine if I listened to him as one might to

their preacher? BTW, I have avoided Arthroscopic knee surgery because I

recently researched what one can do for a torn Meniscus, albeit a slight tear.

I still value doctors expertise and obviously " all conventional medicine isn't

bad " ............too much of it is, however, or there wouldn't be hundreds of

thousand, upwards of 300,000 hospitalizations for Medically caused problems with

well over 100,000 deaths each and every year.

has opened a lot of our eyes as to the sometimes need for intervention

that Alternative Treatments cannot address because the body is overwhelmed by

the cancer. People that believe the body can always heal itself without help

are wrong. " Always " has no place in discussions of health. There is nothing

that 'always' works. He also opened our eyes to the fact that sometimes

dangerous Scans are needed and in those cases, the benefit far outweighs the

risk.

However, when 'regular' scans are recommended, that may not be a situation where

the benefit outweighs the risk.

Just setting the record straight so others do not get the wrong impression

because, nowhere do I ever state 'All Conventional Medicine is bad' but do think

that when some 'push' others to use conventional rather than suggest why it

might help, that is another story. The same applies to Alternative treatments.

It reminds me of another list, The LDN list when a person suggested to another,

" LDN is all you need " . I could not let that one float into everyone's

mail-box without a comment. It is all in how one makes their case because it is

obvious that it can sometimes be taken incorrectly.

Joe C.

From: arlynsg

Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 7:33 AM

Subject: [ ] Re: Cat Scan and chest x-ray radiation exposure

Yes, Joe. However, keeping an open mind means looking at the advances in

conventional medicine, too. There have been some great advances and I think that

labeling all conventional medicine as bad is not going to get us anywhere. I

think that living with mets for 10 or 15 years is exceptional - whether the

person used alternative medicine or conventional. There are new treatments

available that do really work for some or many.

ar

[Guest guest]

Robin,

I know of a woman who is 20 years out with bone, brain and liver mets and is

pretty cancer free now living a full life! Hope that helps give you hope. I've

known others also!

On Jun 2, 2010, at 8:28 AM, robyn howell wrote:

> Do you know people living with mets for 10 or 15 years?

>

> Thanks, Robyn

>

[Guest guest]

I've also spoken with 2 women. Both stage 4 Breast Cancer. One...25 years

'cancer free' (she's refused further testing and is living a normal life now).

The other lady has been cancer free for 8 yrs. Both used natural medicine.

Louise

[Guest guest]

Amazing post, Dr L ... been a long time since I've seen you jump in with your

awesome wisdom. It has been missed ... here, here!

xxoo

" Dr. Loretta Lanphier " wrote:

>

> Joe, for what it is worth, I agree with you about the focus of this list.

There are many, many lists for those that desire conventional medicine choices

for cancer. I have been on this list for more than a few years and the

" flavor " , if you will, has changed greatly. I assume this happened when the

list moderators and owner changed. This is too bad because I believe that most

come on this list for alternative suggestions and answers because conventional

medicine has either failed them or given them no hope...............<snip>

[Guest guest]

Dr. L,

Since you directly addressed me in your post, I will respond.

Many people come to this group because they want to learn more about alternative

medicine, or, learn about complimentary medicine.

The problems you see in this group have nothing to do with the moderators. If

there were more people writing about alternative medicine then you would see

those posts. Here's the deal - we have people asking questions and not too many

people qualified to answer. Again, not the fault of the moderators. If you

want to see more posts about alternative medicine, then we need to figure out

how to get people to write those posts.

As to the problem with blogs stealing our posts not being addressed, Well, I

tried. I suggested we change the way people join the group which would help the

moderators keep out spammers and bloggers, but that was voted down.

I have heard through private email from a few on the list who have said they

feel uncomfortable with posting here. First, because of the bloggers (I think

all the bloggers are gone now, but I'm not sure), and second because the tone of

the list feels unfriendly. They are afraid that if they post something

unpopular, they will be hit with anger or unkind responses.

So, what I see is a dying list. 3,500 members afraid to post, or having nothing

to add, or, simply because many are spammers. Meanwhile, the ten or so of us

who do post regularly are stuck repeating ourselves endlessly. We really don't

have much new to add, either. Meanwhile, new people who come here to ask

questions are supposed to have their posts denied because they may mention

conventional treatment.

I believe 100% in alternative medicine. But I also know it won't work for

everyone or everything. I also know that there are scammers in the alternative

world thriving on the ignorant and desperate. (Thank you moderators for working

hard on keeping those posts out)

" Alternative " lifestyles didn't work for me. I still developed a cancerous

condition. So, I feel honorbound to tell people that if they think that relying

on a vegetarian raw food diet will cure their cancer, then they are wrong. I'm

not promoting conventional treatment, but hoping that people will continue to

research and not rely on one thing to cure them. People need to not blindly

follow ANY treatment. A woman with breast cancer, stage 3, decided to follow

only the advice of her ND. She became a raw foodist and drank some tea - I'm

not sure which one it was. When it became obvious that the cancer was

spreading, she refused to sway from her ND's belief system. She died last

month. If only she had added some more alternative protocols. Or, perhaps used

conventional treatment in order to give her more time for the alternatives to

work. Who knows?

We have to be smart and look at our treatment options with eyes wide open. We

need to be able to say that something isn't working and that maybe it's time to

make changes, whatever those changes are. If someone did chemo and now regrets

it and wants to come here to find out how to heal, they should be able to

discuss the chemo and the best way to heal from it. And if someone has been

doing only alternative medicine and their condition is worsening, they should

feel comfortable in expressing this and making a decision to try chemo. If we

censor what is allowed in this group too much, we run the risk of leading people

astray. Yes, alternative treatments work for some, but not all. And,

conventional treatments work for some, but not all.

It also says in the group description that we believe in individual experiences.

So, if someone in this group has had an individual experience where she regrets

not having a scan to see that her cancer has spread and therefore not catching

it earlier, well, that's important, too.

In the end, much of this group is made up of individual experiences, of course.

And each experience is as important as the next. It is certainly not my job to

determine whose individual experience is more important than the next person's.

They are all important.

ar

[Guest guest]

Thank you Ar!

This is one of the most comprehensive, welcoming and intelligent posts I have

seen in the short time I have been on this group. This kind of attitude you are

describing, and orientation is exactly my way of thinking/feeling.

I have been through a lot myself and helped many people personally, too. I have

had to do my own share of stretching my own narrow, limited views while doing

so.

Sometimes only a tiny bit with my own treatment, as in doing a test that

hopefully has turned the tide and pointed me in the right direction to catch a

tiny problem which would later have become much worse. Whether trying IPT, or

high dose vitamin C! Whether spiffing up last little things in the diet,

lifestyle, attitude...whatever!

I have had to heartbreakingly watch a friend who has been into only natural

things try traditional chemo when her funds ran out for IPT. I had to muster up

the courage to keep loving and not judging her and see her bravery at using a

whole host of complementary adjuncts, including acupuncture, shamanic journeys,

whatever....to amazingly help her follow a road I vowed I would never walk

myself!

I have had to help my father (87) with diet and love for 6 months, and watch the

devastation the radiation and low dose chemo had on him as he walked a path I

could not even accept...but had to keep giving the love and learn the lesson to

help each person walk the path of their own convictions. I have had to learn

that strength of belief system in each individual is as important as any

therapy, and most importantly, that if one does not believe in the best

alternative treatment, it probably will not work for them! And that for some

people traditional methods can work if their convictions intensely support that

and they have other support methods intact.

There is a higher picture for everyone as well. We do not know all.

I have studied with a medical intuitive woman for over 3 years, and she also

advocates regular testing to know which alternative things you can use to attack

the problem most accurately.

Also, I think/feel it is good for us to be gentle with each other with our

responses. When dealing with these issues from our own personal experiences, I

myself and others can be extra senstive and scared away too easily unless there

is a safe feeling to the sharing.

It is a lesson I have learned in helping others, and which I think we all need

in getting intelligent yet sensitive feedback to where we are right now in our

processes and pathways.

Yes, we are all reaching out for help and to learn more. It is a given that

anyone joining this list would be looking for alternative help. On its own or as

an adjunct to traditional. Many roads, many combinations. I would like to see

gentle loving suggestions and non judgemental guidance as we help each other

down these roads. In the most loving ways we can be there for each other.

There is some good information being shared on this site and I would like to

thank everyone for that.

In health,

Carol

>

> Dr. L,

>

> Since you directly addressed me in your post, I will respond.

>

> Many people come to this group because they want to learn more about

alternative medicine, or, learn about complimentary medicine.

>

> The problems you see in this group have nothing to do with the moderators. If

there were more people writing about alternative medicine then you would see

those posts. Here's the deal - we have people asking questions and not too many

people qualified to answer. Again, not the fault of the moderators. If you

want to see more posts about alternative medicine, then we need to figure out

how to get people to write those posts.

>

> As to the problem with blogs stealing our posts not being addressed, Well, I

tried. I suggested we change the way people join the group which would help the

moderators keep out spammers and bloggers, but that was voted down.

>

> I have heard through private email from a few on the list who have said they

feel uncomfortable with posting here. First, because of the bloggers (I think

all the bloggers are gone now, but I'm not sure), and second because the tone of

the list feels unfriendly. They are afraid that if they post something

unpopular, they will be hit with anger or unkind responses.

>

> So, what I see is a dying list. 3,500 members afraid to post, or having

nothing to add, or, simply because many are spammers. Meanwhile, the ten or so

of us who do post regularly are stuck repeating ourselves endlessly. We really

don't have much new to add, either. Meanwhile, new people who come here to ask

questions are supposed to have their posts denied because they may mention

conventional treatment.

>

> I believe 100% in alternative medicine. But I also know it won't work for

everyone or everything. I also know that there are scammers in the alternative

world thriving on the ignorant and desperate. (Thank you moderators for working

hard on keeping those posts out)

>

> " Alternative " lifestyles didn't work for me. I still developed a cancerous

condition. So, I feel honorbound to tell people that if they think that relying

on a vegetarian raw food diet will cure their cancer, then they are wrong. I'm

not promoting conventional treatment, but hoping that people will continue to

research and not rely on one thing to cure them. People need to not blindly

follow ANY treatment. A woman with breast cancer, stage 3, decided to follow

only the advice of her ND. She became a raw foodist and drank some tea - I'm

not sure which one it was. When it became obvious that the cancer was

spreading, she refused to sway from her ND's belief system. She died last

month. If only she had added some more alternative protocols. Or, perhaps used

conventional treatment in order to give her more time for the alternatives to

work. Who knows?

>

> We have to be smart and look at our treatment options with eyes wide open. We

need to be able to say that something isn't working and that maybe it's time to

make changes, whatever those changes are. If someone did chemo and now regrets

it and wants to come here to find out how to heal, they should be able to

discuss the chemo and the best way to heal from it. And if someone has been

doing only alternative medicine and their condition is worsening, they should

feel comfortable in expressing this and making a decision to try chemo. If we

censor what is allowed in this group too much, we run the risk of leading people

astray. Yes, alternative treatments work for some, but not all. And,

conventional treatments work for some, but not all.

>

> It also says in the group description that we believe in individual

experiences. So, if someone in this group has had an individual experience

where she regrets not having a scan to see that her cancer has spread and

therefore not catching it earlier, well, that's important, too.

>

> In the end, much of this group is made up of individual experiences, of

course. And each experience is as important as the next. It is certainly not

my job to determine whose individual experience is more important than the next

person's. They are all important.

>

> ar

>

[Guest guest]

I did not want to comment too much on a message to someone else except it pretty

much does approach things I have written about. I do not think the list can

conduct its performance based upon a " few " people for any reason or discuss too

much about " a person " that may have succumbed even though they tried Alternative

or " refused a scan and died " The list should not gear itself because people

that thought they followed a 'good diet' developed cancer. Does any of this

mean this list should encourage conventional medicine? Absolutely not. A 'case

here' and a 'case there' is never a reason to make a conclusion.

Does the fact that someone's current alternative protocol isn't working mean

they should consider Chemotherapy? Absolutely not. It does mean they need to

change course, whatever that might be but to suggest they should try

Chemotherapy because of that failure denigrates what this list was formed to to

accomplish. It also indicates as I believe, that people in these situations or

any advanced stage should be working with someone that knows what works and what

does not. No easy chore. Nor is it an easy chore to find a reasonable

Allopathic Physician., Below we read that " a woman only decided to follow the

advice of her ND and died " (out of context).

Look at what that might cause in new people with less knowledge and experience.

It might say to some that this person should have run to the nearest Oncologist

for treatment if their current Alternative plan isn't working. Now it may not

have been meant that way, but that's what it could imply. Anyone that

understands Conventional Medicine's failure rate would and should scoff at that.

How many hundreds of thousands of deaths occur every year to people following

conventional medicine exclusively? We cannot take an isolated case or scores

of such cases and generalize as the post below does. People, by the millions,

flock to the most prestigious Cancer Centers and the cemeteries are full of

their patients. It was also written that 'an obligation was felt to let

everyone know that diet alone won't keep them cancer free or cure them'.

That's not an exclusive thought and others should respond to the misled person

that believes that and it is important to do so. Additionally many people post

about their decision to seek Conventional Care or discuss conventional

treatments and I have read those so I wonder whether or not those posts are

being kept off the list. Doesn't seem so.

I can't address people not contributing because of a lack of privacy or not, or

about moderators, but I will agree with Dr. Loretta that there has been an

increase in a leaning, from time to time, towards a more positive attitude

towards Conventional practices and people that want more of that should seek

sites that are directly involved with that. Note I said, " that want more of

that " .

Perhaps it is again time to read what this list is about. I will repeat what

I wrote yesterday and that is the clear and simple fact that sometimes the body

does need help that can only come from Conventional sources but to 'run into

their arms' because a current plan is not working? Heavens no. If we are ready

to deny that The War On Cancer is a failure and want to call it a success, then

we don't need Alternative Medicine lists.

We cannot even give Conventional Medicine the credit when people are 'survivors'

because we just don't know what is or isn't working. It's like my Urologist's

statement to me: " I don't know if what you are doing or what I am doing is

working but something is " Perhaps only his, but I believe it is a combination.

I did have a bladder tumor (2 recurrences) and the first one was bleeding so I

allowed it to be removed. I'm fortunate it was not invasive.

I did, however resist Chemotherapy but allowed Immunotherapy Accepting 's

information about this therapy having good results behind its use.

Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2010 10:20 AM

Subject: [ ] Re: Cat Scan and chest x-ray radiation exposure

Dr. L,

Since you directly addressed me in your post, I will respond.

Many people come to this group because they want to learn more about alternative

medicine, or, learn about complimentary medicine.

The problems you see in this group have nothing to do with the moderators. If

there were more people writing about alternative medicine then you would see

those posts. Here's the deal - we have people asking questions and not too many

people qualified to answer. Again, not the fault of the moderators. If you want

to see more posts about alternative medicine, then we need to figure out how to

get people to write those posts.

As to the problem with blogs stealing our posts not being addressed, Well, I

tried. I suggested we change the way people join the group which would help the

moderators keep out spammers and bloggers, but that was voted down.

I have heard through private email from a few on the list who have said they

feel uncomfortable with posting here. First, because of the bloggers (I think

all the bloggers are gone now, but I'm not sure), and second because the tone of

the list feels unfriendly. They are afraid that if they post something

unpopular, they will be hit with anger or unkind responses.

So, what I see is a dying list. 3,500 members afraid to post, or having nothing

to add, or, simply because many are spammers. Meanwhile, the ten or so of us who

do post regularly are stuck repeating ourselves endlessly. We really don't have

much new to add, either. Meanwhile, new people who come here to ask questions

are supposed to have their posts denied because they may mention conventional

treatment.

I believe 100% in alternative medicine. But I also know it won't work for

everyone or everything. I also know that there are scammers in the alternative

world thriving on the ignorant and desperate. (Thank you moderators for working

hard on keeping those posts out)

S

" Alternative " lifestyles didn't work for me. I still developed a cancerous

condition. o, I feel honorbound to tell people that if they think that relying

on a vegetarian raw food diet will cure their cancer, then they are wrong. I'm

not promoting conventional treatment, but hoping that people will continue to

research and not rely on one thing to cure them. People need to not blindly

follow ANY treatment. A woman with breast cancer, stage 3, decided to follow

only the advice of her ND. She became a raw foodist and drank some tea - I'm not

sure which one it was. When it became obvious that the cancer was spreading, she

refused to sway from her ND's belief system. She died last month. If only she

had added some more alternative protocols. Or, perhaps used conventional

treatment in order to give her more time for the alternatives to work. Who

knows?

We have to be smart and look at our treatment options with eyes wide open. We

need to be able to say that something isn't working and that maybe it's time to

make changes, whatever those changes are. If someone did chemo and now regrets

it and wants to come here to find out how to heal, they should be able to

discuss the chemo and the best way to heal from it. And if someone has been

doing only alternative medicine and their condition is worsening, they should

feel comfortable in expressing this and making a decision to try chemo. If we

censor what is allowed in this group too much, we run the risk of leading people

astray. Yes, alternative treatments work for some, but not all. And,

conventional treatments work for some, but not all.

It also says in the group description that we believe in individual experiences.

So, if someone in this group has had an individual experience where she regrets

not having a scan to see that her cancer has spread and therefore not catching

it earlier, well, that's important, too.

In the end, much of this group is made up of individual experiences, of course.

And each experience is as important as the next. It is certainly not my job to

determine whose individual experience is more important than the next person's.

They are all important.

ar

[Guest guest]

I appreciate both posts and Carol I have the same feelings as you expressed

below.

Everyone with cancer has to follow their own path and sometimes people

don't find their way here until after conventional treatments fail them.

I feel like whatever it takes to get people here to alternative treatment is a

step in the right direction. And all the people here who have only done

alternative will hopefully inspire and lead others by example.

It took me a while to even find out that a group like this existed. Had I found

this group earlier I may not have done the one chemo I did. Thanks

to everyone who continues to post and give their opinion/advice.

And thanks Carol. Well said! val

[ ] Re: Cat Scan and chest x-ray radiation exposure

Thank you Ar!

This is one of the most comprehensive, welcoming and intelligent posts I have

seen in the short time I have been on this group. This kind of attitude you are

describing, and orientation is exactly my way of thinking/feeling.

I have been through a lot myself and helped many people personally, too. I have

had to do my own share of stretching my own narrow, limited views while doing

so.

Sometimes only a tiny bit with my own treatment, as in doing a test that

hopefully has turned the tide and pointed me in the right direction to catch a

tiny problem which would later have become much worse. Whether trying IPT, or

high dose vitamin C! Whether spiffing up last little things in the diet,

lifestyle, attitude...whatever!

I have had to heartbreakingly watch a friend who has been into only natural

things try traditional chemo when her funds ran out for IPT. I had to muster up

the courage to keep loving and not judging her and see her bravery at using a

whole host of complementary adjuncts, including acupuncture, shamanic journeys,

whatever....to amazingly help her follow a road I vowed I would never walk

myself!

I have had to help my father (87) with diet and love for 6 months, and watch the

devastation the radiation and low dose chemo had on him as he walked a path I

could not even accept...but had to keep giving the love and learn the lesson to

help each person walk the path of their own convictions. I have had to learn

that strength of belief system in each individual is as important as any

therapy, and most importantly, that if one does not believe in the best

alternative treatment, it probably will not work for them! And that for some

people traditional methods can work if their convictions intensely support that

and they have other support methods intact.

There is a higher picture for everyone as well. We do not know all.

I have studied with a medical intuitive woman for over 3 years, and she also

advocates regular testing to know which alternative things you can use to attack

the problem most accurately.

Also, I think/feel it is good for us to be gentle with each other with our

responses. When dealing with these issues from our own personal experiences, I

myself and others can be extra senstive and scared away too easily unless there

is a safe feeling to the sharing.

It is a lesson I have learned in helping others, and which I think we all need

in getting intelligent yet sensitive feedback to where we are right now in our

processes and pathways.

Yes, we are all reaching out for help and to learn more. It is a given that

anyone joining this list would be looking for alternative help. On its own or as

an adjunct to traditional. Many roads, many combinations. I would like to see

gentle loving suggestions and non judgemental guidance as we help each other

down these roads. In the most loving ways we can be there for each other.

There is some good information being shared on this site and I would like to

thank everyone for that.

In health,

Carol

>

> Dr. L,

>

> Since you directly addressed me in your post, I will respond.

>

> Many people come to this group because they want to learn more about

alternative medicine, or, learn about complimentary medicine.

>

> The problems you see in this group have nothing to do with the moderators. If

there were more people writing about alternative medicine then you would see

those posts. Here's the deal - we have people asking questions and not too many

people qualified to answer. Again, not the fault of the moderators. If you want

to see more posts about alternative medicine, then we need to figure out how to

get people to write those posts.

>

> As to the problem with blogs stealing our posts not being addressed, Well, I

tried. I suggested we change the way people join the group which would help the

moderators keep out spammers and bloggers, but that was voted down.

>

> I have heard through private email from a few on the list who have said they

feel uncomfortable with posting here. First, because of the bloggers (I think

all the bloggers are gone now, but I'm not sure), and second because the tone of

the list feels unfriendly. They are afraid that if they post something

unpopular, they will be hit with anger or unkind responses.

>

> So, what I see is a dying list. 3,500 members afraid to post, or having

nothing to add, or, simply because many are spammers. Meanwhile, the ten or so

of us who do post regularly are stuck repeating ourselves endlessly. We really

don't have much new to add, either. Meanwhile, new people who come here to ask

questions are supposed to have their posts denied because they may mention

conventional treatment.

>

> I believe 100% in alternative medicine. But I also know it won't work for

everyone or everything. I also know that there are scammers in the alternative

world thriving on the ignorant and desperate. (Thank you moderators for working

hard on keeping those posts out)

>

> " Alternative " lifestyles didn't work for me. I still developed a cancerous

condition. So, I feel honorbound to tell people that if they think that relying

on a vegetarian raw food diet will cure their cancer, then they are wrong. I'm

not promoting conventional treatment, but hoping that people will continue to

research and not rely on one thing to cure them. People need to not blindly

follow ANY treatment. A woman with breast cancer, stage 3, decided to follow

only the advice of her ND. She became a raw foodist and drank some tea - I'm not

sure which one it was. When it became obvious that the cancer was spreading, she

refused to sway from her ND's belief system. She died last month. If only she

had added some more alternative protocols. Or, perhaps used conventional

treatment in order to give her more time for the alternatives to work. Who

knows?

>

> We have to be smart and look at our treatment options with eyes wide open. We

need to be able to say that something isn't working and that maybe it's time to

make changes, whatever those changes are. If someone did chemo and now regrets

it and wants to come here to find out how to heal, they should be able to

discuss the chemo and the best way to heal from it. And if someone has been

doing only alternative medicine and their condition is worsening, they should

feel comfortable in expressing this and making a decision to try chemo. If we

censor what is allowed in this group too much, we run the risk of leading people

astray. Yes, alternative treatments work for some, but not all. And,

conventional treatments work for some, but not all.

>

> It also says in the group description that we believe in individual

experiences. So, if someone in this group has had an individual experience where

she regrets not having a scan to see that her cancer has spread and therefore

not catching it earlier, well, that's important, too.

>

> In the end, much of this group is made up of individual experiences, of

course. And each experience is as important as the next. It is certainly not my

job to determine whose individual experience is more important than the next

person's. They are all important.

>

> ar

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Val,

Thanks for your note.

The encouragement to share and know that it can be of value is deeply

appreciated.

Best of Health to you!

Carol

[Guest guest]

When I first joined this group, it was not even about complimentary medicine

although those that chose that route were fine to be here but they did not

or were not allowed to continually advertise mammograms, scans, x-rays, etc.

No one really discussed chemo and I guess it was because people who came

here had found out that chemo/radiation are usually not effective for very

long. As I indicated in my last post, I certainly agree everyone is

absolutely responsible for their own health and their choices. What they are

searching for is honest information and knowledge. However, it gets

confusing when we see posts that seemingly promote mammograms, habitual

conventional scans and x-rays, etc.

If someone perceives that a post is being judgmental then possibly the post

has hit a nerve with them....maybe even something that needs to be worked-on

in their life. It is difficult to be " challenged " through email. We cannot

always successfully read " intention " into most email so it really becomes

the reader's responsibility as to " how " the post is read. If I've had a

difficult day, I will read posts much differently than if my day has gone

well. Or if a post hits a nerve, I can usually read it the next day deciding

to give the poster the benefit of the doubt and then realize that my first

" reading " was incorrect. If someone is not posting because of fear then

they are allowing fear to control them.

I do believe that " some " of the concerns on this group are with the

moderators. For one thing they are secretive in that most members have no

idea who the moderators are.....I had to finally ask. And because, since

most don't know who the moderators are, the members have no idea if the

moderators are participating or not. It helps to have the " presence " of the

moderators. And the moderators should certainly be knowledgeable about and

totally supportive of alternative/natural medicine. There should be no

guessing of their intent or what they believe.

I don't believe that anyone indicated that conventional medicine posts

should be denied. However, the poster should absolutely be reminded what

this list is about and the focus. On most forums that is the moderator's

job. When a thread is started and someone jumps in promoting things that

can be harmful then I do believe it should be brought to the attention of

the group. Not having success with alternative medicine does not mean that

conventional medicine should be the next choice; yet that is where a lot of

people tend to run. There are all sorts of reasons that people don't have

success with alternative medicine and a high-percentage of the time it is

the patient's misunderstanding of protocol, practitioner who is not familiar

with natural cancer protocols, not doing protocol militantly, not doing it

long enough to allow the body to heal or not understanding " how " the body

heals, reading " experts " on the internet that say alternative medicine

doesn't work or is quackery, extensive previous use of conventional

medicine, negativity from family members, no support base, etc.

Most cancer patients are looking for survival. They want to get well and

live. I understand that....I walked that path and had those exact feelings.

However, future health must be looked at also when determining how to get

well. How sad to be cured only to develop another cancer that is directly

related to the toxicity of the first treatment. Conventional medicine

doesn't warn patients about this possibility and sometimes neither do

alternative practitioners. They work with " symptom relief " only and thus if

there are no symptoms then one must be cured. Or on the other hand lab

results and scans are relied on very heavily and thus a patient's entire

emotional outlook is affected by what a piece of paper says. Labs, x-rays,

scans -- all diagnostic testing is fallible and we need to understand that

from the get-go. True, it may be all we have as far as measurement but it

needs to be understood that false positives and false negatives do happen

and biopsies, x-rays and scans can be read incorrectly. They tend to go up

and go down leaving the person on an emotionally roller-coaster.

Diet (raw or otherwise) alone almost never cures cancer (notice that I used

the word " almost " ). Being " honor bound " to tell people not to rely solely

on a raw food/vegetarian diet is fine; however, many times it has sounded

like all alternatives are " suspect. " I am constantly amazed at those who

have taken full responsibility and put together their own protocol and are

getting great results! It's a lot of WORK to heal. Many people don't want to

make necessary changes -- they want a protocol that is not an inconvenience

so they can continue to live the lifestyle that made them sick in the first

place. They are patted on the head by conventional medicine who tells them

that the cancer they have has absolutely nothing to do with their actions or

lifestyle. Honestly, that is a lie, but it's easy to believe because it lets

the patient off the hook.

I don't think anyone has indicated that alternative medicine works 100% of

the time but certainly conventional medicine doesn't work but maybe even

3-6% of the time. That DOES need to be made clear. An " alternative

lifestyle " and a well thought-out " alternative cancer protocol " are two

extremely different things. I did so many modalities (which I was willing

to do) that sometimes I even forget which ones I did. A very highly

respected practitioner once told me that up to 85% of those with cancer do

not have what it takes to get well. Hmmm....at first I thought that

statement was just a " believable " excuse as to why some don't get well;

however, I completely understand now. I have heard every excuse and whine

under the sun as to " why " something can or cannot be accomplished while

doing a natural protocol. I've had clients who want me to completely

rewrite a protocol so they can fit it into their lifestyle/schedule.

Instead of " what do I need to do to get well? " I hear " I just can't do

that....is there another way? " What they are saying is " I will NOT do what

it takes to get well. My current lifestyle is more important than my

health. " More than anything, this is the reason people don't get well.

They would rather go get chemo for 1-hour weekly or take a chemo pill than

change the lifestyle that got them sick. I understand people don't like to

hear this, but it is the truth. And, yes, absolutely it is THEIR choice.

As was said, type of treatment is the cancer patient's choice. The example

of the lady with breast cancer that " believed " (the important word) in her

ND is not the best example. We don't know if she had chosen otherwise that

she would have gotten well or even had extra time. What we do know is that

she " believed " in her ND....this was HER choice. This is America and even

though our health freedoms are on-the-line we still have a choice about our

own treatment (for the most part). It's not ours to judge other's choices.

Even though she died, she was doing what SHE thought best. We all have that

choice and " what ifs " can absolute make you crazy.....if we live our lives

with constant " what ifs " then we live in fear and fear paralyzes.

Of course, we must be smart -- absolutely. There is no ONE cure-all for

cancer (that is allowed on the market, anyway) -- not in conventional

medicine and not in alternative medicine. So many times people are looking

for THE pill, THE modality, THE supplement, THE practitioner, THE clinic,

etc. that will cure them....this is the thinking of conventional medicine --

here, take this pill. That is why I tell people to get both sides of the

coin -- natural and conventional. Do your own research and don't blindly

accept what anyone has to say without researching. However, I also suggest

specific questions that they ask of conventional medicine because

conventional medicine has a language of their own, when it comes to cancer

treatment, that lay people do not always understand. Once people understand

this then hopefully a good decision can be made. But, it's the people that

sit across from me at stage IV and had had 50 rounds of chemo and radiated

to within an inch of their life and say " I wish I would have known the truth

about conventional medicine or Why didn't my doctor tell me that the

treatment was only palliative? " that causes me to sigh. You see....they

read a " forum " or listened to an aunt or uncle or family member or

co-worker, etc. that knew of so-in-so who did chemotherapy/radiation and did

quite well. We automatically assume that " quite well " means cured but that

is almost never the case. What exactly does " quite well " mean? Does it mean

they were cured? Does it mean they live in their easy chair in front of the

TV? Does it mean they were given 3 more months or 5 years? What was/is

their quality of life? When doing chemo one quickly realizes that quality

of life IS important. Much of chemotherapy gives one NO quality of life and

they endure this " treatment time " often to find out it has not worked and

that their immune system is shot.

As far as the " forum description paragraph " , the entire paragraph is talking

about alternative medicine. The individual experience is more along

alternative medicine or possibly why conventional didn't help or maybe did

help but now alternative medicine is being considered. It is not about

people coming on here and promoting conventional medicine. Or, if it is,

then forum members need to know because that it not what it used to be and

again, if things have changed then the list needs to be made aware. That's

only fair.

Personal experience is very important, but it is always anecdotal. Again,

new members sharing an experience about conventional medicine one might (if

one is praising it) be acceptable, I guess, but I don't think we should be

praising conventional medicine treatment especially since results are

usually dismal, at best. This group's purpose is not to convince, condone

or sway someone toward conventional medicine or so I thought, anyway. I'm

sure there are many forums that do just that and very effectively.

Again, the intent of this email is concern and not attack. I know how

difficult it is to moderate because I have been a moderator for ten years on

a list that is not health related. But I do know that boundaries must be

set otherwise you do get scammers and people who have agendas other than the

purpose of the group. The moderators really need to be visible and they

need to be the ones to " set the tone " and yes " moderate experience "

otherwise it becomes a free-for-all and focus is lost. That is when

knowledgeable people decide not to post. Certainly this forum is really

needed but either the purpose paragraph needs to be re-written or the

threads need to be focused on alternative medicine.

Be Well

Dr.L

[ ] Re: Cat Scan and chest x-ray radiation exposure

Dr. L,

Since you directly addressed me in your post, I will respond.

Many people come to this group because they want to learn more about

alternative medicine, or, learn about complimentary medicine.

The problems you see in this group have nothing to do with the moderators.

If there were more people writing about alternative medicine then you would

see those posts. Here's the deal - we have people asking questions and not

too many people qualified to answer. Again, not the fault of the

moderators. If you want to see more posts about alternative medicine, then

we need to figure out how to get people to write those posts.

As to the problem with blogs stealing our posts not being addressed, Well,

I tried. I suggested we change the way people join the group which would

help the moderators keep out spammers and bloggers, but that was voted down.

I have heard through private email from a few on the list who have said they

feel uncomfortable with posting here. First, because of the bloggers (I

think all the bloggers are gone now, but I'm not sure), and second because

the tone of the list feels unfriendly. They are afraid that if they post

something unpopular, they will be hit with anger or unkind responses.

So, what I see is a dying list. 3,500 members afraid to post, or having

nothing to add, or, simply because many are spammers. Meanwhile, the ten or

so of us who do post regularly are stuck repeating ourselves endlessly. We

really don't have much new to add, either. Meanwhile, new people who come

here to ask questions are supposed to have their posts denied because they

may mention conventional treatment.

I believe 100% in alternative medicine. But I also know it won't work for

everyone or everything. I also know that there are scammers in the

alternative world thriving on the ignorant and desperate. (Thank you

moderators for working hard on keeping those posts out)

" Alternative " lifestyles didn't work for me. I still developed a cancerous

condition. So, I feel honorbound to tell people that if they think that

relying on a vegetarian raw food diet will cure their cancer, then they are

wrong. I'm not promoting conventional treatment, but hoping that people

will continue to research and not rely on one thing to cure them. People

need to not blindly follow ANY treatment. A woman with breast cancer, stage

3, decided to follow only the advice of her ND. She became a raw foodist

and drank some tea - I'm not sure which one it was. When it became obvious

that the cancer was spreading, she refused to sway from her ND's belief

system. She died last month. If only she had added some more alternative

protocols. Or, perhaps used conventional treatment in order to give her

more time for the alternatives to work. Who knows?

We have to be smart and look at our treatment options with eyes wide open.

We need to be able to say that something isn't working and that maybe it's

time to make changes, whatever those changes are. If someone did chemo and

now regrets it and wants to come here to find out how to heal, they should

be able to discuss the chemo and the best way to heal from it. And if

someone has been doing only alternative medicine and their condition is

worsening, they should feel comfortable in expressing this and making a

decision to try chemo. If we censor what is allowed in this group too much,

we run the risk of leading people astray. Yes, alternative treatments work

for some, but not all. And, conventional treatments work for some, but not

all.

It also says in the group description that we believe in individual

experiences. So, if someone in this group has had an individual experience

where she regrets not having a scan to see that her cancer has spread and

therefore not catching it earlier, well, that's important, too.

In the end, much of this group is made up of individual experiences, of

course. And each experience is as important as the next. It is certainly

not my job to determine whose individual experience is more important than

the next person's. They are all important.

ar

[Guest guest]

Dr. L,

I'm not an expert on treating cancer. All I know is what I've done and am

willing to do. The raw vegan made a difference for me but, no, I'm not

cured...still stage 4. After reading your post, I feel I've got nothing to

offer. Are you saying only 'experts' should post here? I'm not an expert. I

give my 2 cents because I think it helps, not leads people astray.

Louise

Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the Bell network.

Envoyé sans fil par mon terminal mobile BlackBerry sur le réseau de Bell.

[Guest guest]

Dr. Loretta,

I have not read a single post on here that promotes conventional medicine. If

you perceive that honest discussion about experience is the same as promoting a

specific type of treatment, then your perception needs to be tuned a little

better.

ar

>

> When I first joined this group, it was not even about complimentary medicine

> although those that chose that route were fine to be here but they did not

> or were not allowed to continually advertise mammograms, scans, x-rays, etc.

> No one really discussed chemo and I guess it was because people who came

> here had found out that chemo/radiation are usually not effective for very

> long. As I indicated in my last post, I certainly agree everyone is

> absolutely responsible for their own health and their choices. What they are

> searching for is honest information and knowledge. However, it gets

> confusing when we see posts that seemingly promote mammograms, habitual

> conventional scans and x-rays, etc.

>

> If someone perceives that a post is being judgmental then possibly the post

> has hit a nerve with them....maybe even something that needs to be worked-on

> in their life. It is difficult to be " challenged " through email. We cannot

> always successfully read " intention " into most email so it really becomes

> the reader's responsibility as to " how " the post is read. If I've had a

> difficult day, I will read posts much differently than if my day has gone

> well. Or if a post hits a nerve, I can usually read it the next day deciding

> to give the poster the benefit of the doubt and then realize that my first

> " reading " was incorrect. If someone is not posting because of fear then

> they are allowing fear to control them.

>

> I do believe that " some " of the concerns on this group are with the

> moderators. For one thing they are secretive in that most members have no

> idea who the moderators are.....I had to finally ask. And because, since

> most don't know who the moderators are, the members have no idea if the

> moderators are participating or not. It helps to have the " presence " of the

> moderators. And the moderators should certainly be knowledgeable about and

> totally supportive of alternative/natural medicine. There should be no

> guessing of their intent or what they believe.

>

> I don't believe that anyone indicated that conventional medicine posts

> should be denied. However, the poster should absolutely be reminded what

> this list is about and the focus. On most forums that is the moderator's

> job. When a thread is started and someone jumps in promoting things that

> can be harmful then I do believe it should be brought to the attention of

> the group. Not having success with alternative medicine does not mean that

> conventional medicine should be the next choice; yet that is where a lot of

> people tend to run. There are all sorts of reasons that people don't have

> success with alternative medicine and a high-percentage of the time it is

> the patient's misunderstanding of protocol, practitioner who is not familiar

> with natural cancer protocols, not doing protocol militantly, not doing it

> long enough to allow the body to heal or not understanding " how " the body

> heals, reading " experts " on the internet that say alternative medicine

> doesn't work or is quackery, extensive previous use of conventional

> medicine, negativity from family members, no support base, etc.

>

> Most cancer patients are looking for survival. They want to get well and

> live. I understand that....I walked that path and had those exact feelings.

> However, future health must be looked at also when determining how to get

> well. How sad to be cured only to develop another cancer that is directly

> related to the toxicity of the first treatment. Conventional medicine

> doesn't warn patients about this possibility and sometimes neither do

> alternative practitioners. They work with " symptom relief " only and thus if

> there are no symptoms then one must be cured. Or on the other hand lab

> results and scans are relied on very heavily and thus a patient's entire

> emotional outlook is affected by what a piece of paper says. Labs, x-rays,

> scans -- all diagnostic testing is fallible and we need to understand that

> from the get-go. True, it may be all we have as far as measurement but it

> needs to be understood that false positives and false negatives do happen

> and biopsies, x-rays and scans can be read incorrectly. They tend to go up

> and go down leaving the person on an emotionally roller-coaster.

>

> Diet (raw or otherwise) alone almost never cures cancer (notice that I used

> the word " almost " ). Being " honor bound " to tell people not to rely solely

> on a raw food/vegetarian diet is fine; however, many times it has sounded

> like all alternatives are " suspect. " I am constantly amazed at those who

> have taken full responsibility and put together their own protocol and are

> getting great results! It's a lot of WORK to heal. Many people don't want to

> make necessary changes -- they want a protocol that is not an inconvenience

> so they can continue to live the lifestyle that made them sick in the first

> place. They are patted on the head by conventional medicine who tells them

> that the cancer they have has absolutely nothing to do with their actions or

> lifestyle. Honestly, that is a lie, but it's easy to believe because it lets

> the patient off the hook.

>

> I don't think anyone has indicated that alternative medicine works 100% of

> the time but certainly conventional medicine doesn't work but maybe even

> 3-6% of the time. That DOES need to be made clear. An " alternative

> lifestyle " and a well thought-out " alternative cancer protocol " are two

> extremely different things. I did so many modalities (which I was willing

> to do) that sometimes I even forget which ones I did. A very highly

> respected practitioner once told me that up to 85% of those with cancer do

> not have what it takes to get well. Hmmm....at first I thought that

> statement was just a " believable " excuse as to why some don't get well;

> however, I completely understand now. I have heard every excuse and whine

> under the sun as to " why " something can or cannot be accomplished while

> doing a natural protocol. I've had clients who want me to completely

> rewrite a protocol so they can fit it into their lifestyle/schedule.

> Instead of " what do I need to do to get well? " I hear " I just can't do

> that....is there another way? " What they are saying is " I will NOT do what

> it takes to get well. My current lifestyle is more important than my

> health. " More than anything, this is the reason people don't get well.

> They would rather go get chemo for 1-hour weekly or take a chemo pill than

> change the lifestyle that got them sick. I understand people don't like to

> hear this, but it is the truth. And, yes, absolutely it is THEIR choice.

>

> As was said, type of treatment is the cancer patient's choice. The example

> of the lady with breast cancer that " believed " (the important word) in her

> ND is not the best example. We don't know if she had chosen otherwise that

> she would have gotten well or even had extra time. What we do know is that

> she " believed " in her ND....this was HER choice. This is America and even

> though our health freedoms are on-the-line we still have a choice about our

> own treatment (for the most part). It's not ours to judge other's choices.

> Even though she died, she was doing what SHE thought best. We all have that

> choice and " what ifs " can absolute make you crazy.....if we live our lives

> with constant " what ifs " then we live in fear and fear paralyzes.

>

> Of course, we must be smart -- absolutely. There is no ONE cure-all for

> cancer (that is allowed on the market, anyway) -- not in conventional

> medicine and not in alternative medicine. So many times people are looking

> for THE pill, THE modality, THE supplement, THE practitioner, THE clinic,

> etc. that will cure them....this is the thinking of conventional medicine --

> here, take this pill. That is why I tell people to get both sides of the

> coin -- natural and conventional. Do your own research and don't blindly

> accept what anyone has to say without researching. However, I also suggest

> specific questions that they ask of conventional medicine because

> conventional medicine has a language of their own, when it comes to cancer

> treatment, that lay people do not always understand. Once people understand

> this then hopefully a good decision can be made. But, it's the people that

> sit across from me at stage IV and had had 50 rounds of chemo and radiated

> to within an inch of their life and say " I wish I would have known the truth

> about conventional medicine or Why didn't my doctor tell me that the

> treatment was only palliative? " that causes me to sigh. You see....they

> read a " forum " or listened to an aunt or uncle or family member or

> co-worker, etc. that knew of so-in-so who did chemotherapy/radiation and did

> quite well. We automatically assume that " quite well " means cured but that

> is almost never the case. What exactly does " quite well " mean? Does it mean

> they were cured? Does it mean they live in their easy chair in front of the

> TV? Does it mean they were given 3 more months or 5 years? What was/is

> their quality of life? When doing chemo one quickly realizes that quality

> of life IS important. Much of chemotherapy gives one NO quality of life and

> they endure this " treatment time " often to find out it has not worked and

> that their immune system is shot.

>

> As far as the " forum description paragraph " , the entire paragraph is talking

> about alternative medicine. The individual experience is more along

> alternative medicine or possibly why conventional didn't help or maybe did

> help but now alternative medicine is being considered. It is not about

> people coming on here and promoting conventional medicine. Or, if it is,

> then forum members need to know because that it not what it used to be and

> again, if things have changed then the list needs to be made aware. That's

> only fair.

>

> Personal experience is very important, but it is always anecdotal. Again,

> new members sharing an experience about conventional medicine one might (if

> one is praising it) be acceptable, I guess, but I don't think we should be

> praising conventional medicine treatment especially since results are

> usually dismal, at best. This group's purpose is not to convince, condone

> or sway someone toward conventional medicine or so I thought, anyway. I'm

> sure there are many forums that do just that and very effectively.

>

> Again, the intent of this email is concern and not attack. I know how

> difficult it is to moderate because I have been a moderator for ten years on

> a list that is not health related. But I do know that boundaries must be

> set otherwise you do get scammers and people who have agendas other than the

> purpose of the group. The moderators really need to be visible and they

> need to be the ones to " set the tone " and yes " moderate experience "

> otherwise it becomes a free-for-all and focus is lost. That is when

> knowledgeable people decide not to post. Certainly this forum is really

> needed but either the purpose paragraph needs to be re-written or the

> threads need to be focused on alternative medicine.

>

> Be Well

> Dr.L

>

>

>

> [ ] Re: Cat Scan and chest x-ray radiation exposure

>

> Dr. L,

>

> Since you directly addressed me in your post, I will respond.

>

> Many people come to this group because they want to learn more about

> alternative medicine, or, learn about complimentary medicine.

>

> The problems you see in this group have nothing to do with the moderators.

> If there were more people writing about alternative medicine then you would

> see those posts. Here's the deal - we have people asking questions and not

> too many people qualified to answer. Again, not the fault of the

> moderators. If you want to see more posts about alternative medicine, then

> we need to figure out how to get people to write those posts.

>

> As to the problem with blogs stealing our posts not being addressed, Well,

> I tried. I suggested we change the way people join the group which would

> help the moderators keep out spammers and bloggers, but that was voted down.

>

>

> I have heard through private email from a few on the list who have said they

> feel uncomfortable with posting here. First, because of the bloggers (I

> think all the bloggers are gone now, but I'm not sure), and second because

> the tone of the list feels unfriendly. They are afraid that if they post

> something unpopular, they will be hit with anger or unkind responses.

>

> So, what I see is a dying list. 3,500 members afraid to post, or having

> nothing to add, or, simply because many are spammers. Meanwhile, the ten or

> so of us who do post regularly are stuck repeating ourselves endlessly. We

> really don't have much new to add, either. Meanwhile, new people who come

> here to ask questions are supposed to have their posts denied because they

> may mention conventional treatment.

>

> I believe 100% in alternative medicine. But I also know it won't work for

> everyone or everything. I also know that there are scammers in the

> alternative world thriving on the ignorant and desperate. (Thank you

> moderators for working hard on keeping those posts out)

>

> " Alternative " lifestyles didn't work for me. I still developed a cancerous

> condition. So, I feel honorbound to tell people that if they think that

> relying on a vegetarian raw food diet will cure their cancer, then they are

> wrong. I'm not promoting conventional treatment, but hoping that people

> will continue to research and not rely on one thing to cure them. People

> need to not blindly follow ANY treatment. A woman with breast cancer, stage

> 3, decided to follow only the advice of her ND. She became a raw foodist

> and drank some tea - I'm not sure which one it was. When it became obvious

> that the cancer was spreading, she refused to sway from her ND's belief

> system. She died last month. If only she had added some more alternative

> protocols. Or, perhaps used conventional treatment in order to give her

> more time for the alternatives to work. Who knows?

>

> We have to be smart and look at our treatment options with eyes wide open.

> We need to be able to say that something isn't working and that maybe it's

> time to make changes, whatever those changes are. If someone did chemo and

> now regrets it and wants to come here to find out how to heal, they should

> be able to discuss the chemo and the best way to heal from it. And if

> someone has been doing only alternative medicine and their condition is

> worsening, they should feel comfortable in expressing this and making a

> decision to try chemo. If we censor what is allowed in this group too much,

> we run the risk of leading people astray. Yes, alternative treatments work

> for some, but not all. And, conventional treatments work for some, but not

> all.

>

> It also says in the group description that we believe in individual

> experiences. So, if someone in this group has had an individual experience

> where she regrets not having a scan to see that her cancer has spread and

> therefore not catching it earlier, well, that's important, too.

>

> In the end, much of this group is made up of individual experiences, of

> course. And each experience is as important as the next. It is certainly

> not my job to determine whose individual experience is more important than

> the next person's. They are all important.

>

> ar

>

[Guest guest]

Just to be clear, ar, there most certainly are posters on this forum who promote

conventional cancer protocols/medicines. V. Gammill for one and used it for his

own cancer which of course was his right but just as we should not poo poo all

traditional cancer treatments we should also not discourage all alternatives

either.

JFYI

Sandy

[Guest guest]

Arlyn

Without trying to beat this to death, I am not the only one who has seen

this tendency. So yes, it has happened enough to mention. And since we

don't know who all the moderators are, the forum is the only place to hope

the concern gets read. I wish it was just a perception, but it is not. If an

" honest experience " promotes excessive conventional medicine/harmful scans,

etc. then while it may be honest, it is not on-topic according to the

description of this forum. I doubt there is one cancer patient on this list

that doesn't know what scans/x-rays etc. are available to him/her so these

scans/x-rays don't need promotion. However, what many don't fully realize

is how harmful they can be in the long-term. This is an experience of which

the consequences are not readily known; however, even conventional medicine

is now questioning the overuse of scans and x-rays. As others have said

there are times when a scan/x-ray is very necessary. But most of the these

scans are not proven to be of any real help especially when used

prophylactically or for every ache/pain. In fact they may cause more health

concerns.

Obviously the concern has been duly noted and thus time to move on...

Be Well

Dr.L

-----Original Message-----

Dr. Loretta,

I have not read a single post on here that promotes conventional medicine.

If you perceive that honest discussion about experience is the same as

promoting a specific type of treatment, then your perception needs to be

tuned a little better.

ar

[Guest guest]

Dr. L,

You are very concerned about the fact that you don't know who all the moderators

are. I don't think it matters that much.

Anyone who wishes to contact the moderators may do so by sending an email to

-owner . When you do this, your email goes to all the

moderators.

ar

>

> Arlyn

>

> Without trying to beat this to death, I am not the only one who has seen

> this tendency. So yes, it has happened enough to mention. And since we

> don't know who all the moderators are, the forum is the only place to hope

> the concern gets read. I wish it was just a perception, but it is not. If an

> " honest experience " promotes excessive conventional medicine/harmful scans,

> etc. then while it may be honest, it is not on-topic according to the

> description of this forum. I doubt there is one cancer patient on this list

> that doesn't know what scans/x-rays etc. are available to him/her so these

> scans/x-rays don't need promotion. However, what many don't fully realize

> is how harmful they can be in the long-term. This is an experience of which

> the consequences are not readily known; however, even conventional medicine

> is now questioning the overuse of scans and x-rays. As others have said

> there are times when a scan/x-ray is very necessary. But most of the these

> scans are not proven to be of any real help especially when used

> prophylactically or for every ache/pain. In fact they may cause more health

> concerns.

>

> Obviously the concern has been duly noted and thus time to move on...

>

> Be Well

> Dr.L