Re: Paw Paw protocol?

[Guest guest]

A thought.  Since Paw Paw reduced ATP, one of the things I did was make myself a

list of all the supplements and everything I take, and then looked them up on

the internet, one at a time, to find out if they had any impact on ATP, and

included them or excluded them based on that information.  Jan

From: jrrjim <jim.mcelroy10@...>

Subject: [ ] Paw Paw protocol?

Date: Wednesday, January 28, 2009, 3:12 PM

I know posts have been made many times on paw paw protocols. I also

know that the thought on these protocols is changing, perhaps

evolving. I was wondering if some knowledgable people could either

give a good paw paw protocol (in terms of the most recent concepts in

this area) or point me in the right direction.

Specifically, I am looking for what to leave out of a protocol with paw

paw.

I'm pretty sure Coenzyme Q10 is one of the elements to avoid. I'm a

little confused on other antioxidants.

I believe that at one time, FO /CC were left out, but now they are

considered okay.

[Guest guest]

My notes on paw paw:

paw paw--NOT the same as papaya; antiangiogenic, antiviral, promotes

apoptosis (stops ATP production), inhibits drug resistance (MDR);

effective w/Hodgkins; more effective in supplement form; synergistic

w/kombucha. Some say to AVOID CoQ10 , SOD, antioxidants, grapepine,

lipoic acid, Cellular Energy, NAC, garlic, 7-KETO, TS-2, thyroid

activator & support, and megadoses of vit. C while using paw paw

because they may interfere w/its effectiveness, but another source

says it's ok to take them; " According to the latest info…there are

just a couple things that are not

compatable…http://pawpaw.tv/one_minute_007.asp " (11/07); " use…briefly

and intensely…can't be used for prevention " Mike Golden, D.C.

goldenmike@... 9/17/08; don't take long-term w/o medical

supervision; " Paw Paw is standardized, while Graviola is not…video in

which a researcher…tested Graviola and Paw Paw…both contain the same

therapeutic alkaloid…in one batch of Graviola, the active alkaloid was

24 times weaker than Paw Paw, and in another batch, 56 times weaker "

" [Paw paw and graviola] do limit ATP production. Most of their effect

is on rapidly growing cells...might produce some fatigue at

first...Only use these products with food in the stomach. Initially

there was a lot of concern that...antioxidants might inhibit paw paw.

This has proven untrue, for the most part. Some reasonable

supplementation with antioxidants is ok. You might still want to avoid

coenzyme Q10 and any type of drug that stimulates the thyroid "

goldenmike@... 9/08

" paw paw acts on cancer via acetogenins, just like graviola,

suffocating the cancer cell by interfering with its oxidative

mechanisms. As with graviola, it's the leaves that are used for

cancer…. Acetogenins, found in paw paw and graviola, interfere with

oxidative (cell energy) mechanisms, involving NADH (niacin based) and

[CoQ10]…. action of acetogenins is on the oxidative mechanisms for

energy production of the cell, involving NAD/H [and

CoQ10]…antioxidants and CoQ10…might be supplying it to the cancer

cell…negating the…acetogenins. [see] Alali, et al., " Annonaceous

acetogenins: Recent progress " in J. Nat. Prod., 1999, vol 62, pp

504-540…. http://www.freemedicaljournals.com…. take the acetogenins

several hours apart from the antioxidants "

" Jerry McLoughlin, the originator of Paw Paw extract for Nature's

Sunshine...said that if the usual dose of 4 capsules of Paw Paw a day

does not bring desired results, a person can go higher

without risking any serious problems besides nausea and

vomiting….herbalist [ Easley] said he had taken some of his

clients up as high as 20 capsules daily, the reason being, of course,

that some people who do not see tumor diminution at 4 capsules a day

do see it at higher doses " . " Tony Bell...has for a long time been

recommending that Protocel and Paw Paw be taken TOGETHER....Tony has

told me several times that people who have taken Protocel and Paw Paw

together have obtained very good results. "

For more info, www.annieappleseedproject.org/pawpawfruita.html (Schachter)

www.handpen.com/cancell/paw.htm

www.healthy-sunshine.com/paw-paw-cell-reg.asp (to order; Nature's

Sunshine)

[Guest guest]

,

The acetogenins will impair ATP production in healthy cells also. The

difference is that healthy cells can tolerate this better than cancer

cells can.

The cells that are most likely to be influenced are those that have the

fastest reproductive rate. This includes the lining of the gut and the

hair follicles.

This is why paw paw should not be used for prevention, only for current

cancer.

Some fatigue may be present using these herbs, particularly when you

first start.

Bag wrote:

>

> i have a question on pawpaw and graviola. It is said both contain

> acetegonin which affects ATP of cancer cells and without harming

> normal cells? Is this a legitimate claim? Can acetegonin identify

> which is a cancer cell or not?

>

> Thanks.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

McClaughlin patented paw-paw while doing the research at the Purdue University

(i believe).

My question is who really did the comparison between paw paw and graviola? Is

it a fair comparison/research with no vested interest in it?

[Guest guest]

Dr. Mike,

Gosh, i took graviola leaves tea for years without having any cancer. Stopped

taking it 4 years ago. How can i bring back the disabled ATPs in my healthy

cells? My stomach is always hurting, comes and goes.

Thanks for the useful info.

[Guest guest]

Hello ,

The suppression is temporary. It only lasts while the graviola is in

your system.

Mike

Saturday, January 31, 2009, 7:53:10 PM, you wrote:

MB> Dr. Mike,

MB> Gosh, i took graviola leaves tea for years without having any

MB> cancer. Stopped taking it 4 years ago. How can i bring back the

MB> disabled ATPs in my healthy cells? My stomach is always hurting, comes and

goes.

MB> Thanks for the useful info.

MB>

--

Best regards,

Mike mailto:goldenmike@...

[Guest guest]

Hello ,

The studies are published in peer reviewed journals. They used brine

shrimp as the experimental model. This is a standard and is well

accepted. The biochemistry gives it away also. The paw paw

acetogenins are double ringed structures. The graviola only has

sigle ringed structures. One mark in the favor of graviola is the

large number of variations in acetogenins. Paw paw has fewer

different types.

Mike

Saturday, January 31, 2009, 7:49:41 PM, you wrote:

MB> McClaughlin patented paw-paw while doing the research at the Purdue

University (i believe).

MB> My question is who really did the comparison between paw paw and

MB> graviola? Is it a fair comparison/research with no vested interest in it?

MB>

--

Best regards,

Mike mailto:goldenmike@...

[Guest guest]

Dr. Mike

Thanks so much. I can not be at ease without worrying about the lost ATP.

[Guest guest]

Okay -- now I am more confused than ever.

The last I heard awhile back was to avoid the antioxidants. Before

that I heard that I only had to avoid CoQ10.

Now I read the link in this post that says that antioxidants are

probably okay, if taken 4 hours apart from the paw paw.

Yikes.

So let's go through it again:

Antioxidants. Okay or not? Or are some okay and some not?

COQ10 -- definitely out?

Immune boosters -- Oleander, beta glucans, mushrooms, aloe vera,

etc...

FO/CC?

Green tea extract? Very good even though an antioxidant?

Artemisinin?

Bloodroot?

Iodine? I read that thyroid boosters should be avoided, but iodine

seems so critical!

IP6?

Others??????

Sorry to be a pain in the behind, but I need to get this down.

>

> My notes on paw paw:

>

> paw paw--NOT the same as papaya; antiangiogenic, antiviral, promotes

> apoptosis (stops ATP production), inhibits drug resistance (MDR);

> effective w/Hodgkins; more effective in supplement form; synergistic

> w/kombucha. Some say to AVOID CoQ10 , SOD, antioxidants, grapepine,

> lipoic acid, Cellular Energy, NAC, garlic, 7-KETO, TS-2, thyroid

> activator & support, and megadoses of vit. C while using paw paw

> because they may interfere w/its effectiveness, but another source

> says it's ok to take them; " According to the latest info…there are

> just a couple things that are not

> compatable…http://pawpaw.tv/one_minute_007.asp "

(11/07); " use…briefly

> and intensely…can't be used for prevention " Mike Golden, D.C.

> goldenmike@... 9/17/08; don't take long-term w/o medical

> supervision; " Paw Paw is standardized, while Graviola is

not…video in

> which a researcher…tested Graviola and Paw Paw…both contain the

same

> therapeutic alkaloid…in one batch of Graviola, the active

alkaloid was

> 24 times weaker than Paw Paw, and in another batch, 56 times weaker "

> " [Paw paw and graviola] do limit ATP production. Most of

their effect

> is on rapidly growing cells...might produce some fatigue at

> first...Only use these products with food in the stomach. Initially

> there was a lot of concern that...antioxidants might inhibit paw

paw.

> This has proven untrue, for the most part. Some reasonable

> supplementation with antioxidants is ok. You might still want to

avoid

> coenzyme Q10 and any type of drug that stimulates the thyroid "

> goldenmike@... 9/08

> " paw paw acts on cancer via acetogenins, just like graviola,

> suffocating the cancer cell by interfering with its oxidative

> mechanisms. As with graviola, it's the leaves that are used for

> cancer…. Acetogenins, found in paw paw and graviola, interfere

with

> oxidative (cell energy) mechanisms, involving NADH (niacin based)

and

> [CoQ10]…. action of acetogenins is on the oxidative mechanisms for

> energy production of the cell, involving NAD/H [and

> CoQ10]…antioxidants and CoQ10…might be supplying it to the

cancer

> cell…negating the…acetogenins. [see] Alali, et al., " Annonaceous

> acetogenins: Recent progress " in J. Nat. Prod., 1999, vol 62, pp

> 504-540…. http://www.freemedicaljournals.com…. take the

acetogenins

> several hours apart from the antioxidants "

> " Jerry McLoughlin, the originator of Paw Paw extract for Nature's

> Sunshine...said that if the usual dose of 4 capsules of Paw Paw a

day

> does not bring desired results, a person can go higher

> without risking any serious problems besides nausea and

> vomiting….herbalist [ Easley] said he had taken some of his

> clients up as high as 20 capsules daily, the reason being, of

course,

> that some people who do not see tumor diminution at 4 capsules a day

> do see it at higher doses " . " Tony Bell...has for a long time been

> recommending that Protocel and Paw Paw be taken TOGETHER....Tony has

> told me several times that people who have taken Protocel and Paw

Paw

> together have obtained very good results. "

> For more info, www.annieappleseedproject.org/pawpawfruita.html

(Schachter)

> www.handpen.com/cancell/paw.htm

> www.healthy-sunshine.com/paw-paw-cell-reg.asp (to order; Nature's

> Sunshine)

>

[Guest guest]

Jim,

It looks like you are asking with reference to paw paw. If that is the

case, antioxidants are OK. CoQ-10 is not. (Selenium is also, probably, a

deal breaker for paw paw). It's not because CoQ-10 is an antioxidant.

It's because CoQ-10 is a cofactor in electron transport that works on

the same Respiratory Complex that paw paw blocks. Iodine in small

amounts, is OK. Strong thyroid stimulation is not. If a person needs

thyroid meds, the amount they need to be in balance is OK. As far as

antioxidants go...for most therapies the amounts of antioxidants in food

are fine. Supernutrition amounts only interfere with some protocols.

Some antioxidants (Cantron, for example) quench a wide variety of free

radicals, and, therefore, will interfere with nearly anything that works

via free radicals. Most antioxidants only work against a few specific

free radicals.

Let's say artemisinin works by generating hydrogen peroxidation in

contact with iron. Catalase would stop that from happening. Fortunately

cancer cells often don't have much catalase. However, vitamin c is

pretty good at quenching hydrogen peroxide, so you would not want large

amounts of ascorbate. Vitamin C is not so effective with superoxide

radical, though, so a therapy that generated that radical (paw paw)

might not be inhibited by vtamin C, but would be inhibited by SOD

(superoxide dismutase) which is boosted by selenium.

Antioxidants are not going to cure cancer, though they probably help

prevent it. It's probably wise to not load up with antioxidants

indiscriminately. Get them from the diet.

Mike

jrrjim wrote:

>

> Okay -- now I am more confused than ever.

>

> The last I heard awhile back was to avoid the antioxidants. Before

> that I heard that I only had to avoid CoQ10.

>

> Now I read the link in this post that says that antioxidants are

> probably okay, if taken 4 hours apart from the paw paw.

>

> Yikes.

>

> So let's go through it again:

>

> Antioxidants. Okay or not? Or are some okay and some not?

>

> COQ10 -- definitely out?

>

> Immune boosters -- Oleander, beta glucans, mushrooms, aloe vera,

> etc...

>

> FO/CC?

>

> Green tea extract? Very good even though an antioxidant?

>

> Artemisinin?

>

> Bloodroot?

>

> Iodine? I read that thyroid boosters should be avoided, but iodine

> seems so critical!

>

> IP6?

>

> Others??????

>

> Sorry to be a pain in the behind, but I need to get this down.

>

>

> >

> > My notes on paw paw:

> >

> > paw paw--NOT the same as papaya; antiangiogenic, antiviral, promotes

> > apoptosis (stops ATP production), inhibits drug resistance (MDR);

> > effective w/Hodgkins; more effective in supplement form; synergistic

> > w/kombucha. Some say to AVOID CoQ10 , SOD, antioxidants, grapepine,

> > lipoic acid, Cellular Energy, NAC, garlic, 7-KETO, TS-2, thyroid

> > activator & support, and megadoses of vit. C while using paw paw

> > because they may interfere w/its effectiveness, but another source

> > says it's ok to take them; " According to the latest info…there are

> > just a couple things that are not

> > compatable…http://pawpaw.tv/one_minute_007.asp

> <http://pawpaw.tv/one_minute_007.asp> "

> (11/07); " use…briefly

> > and intensely…can't be used for prevention " Mike Golden, D.C.

> > goldenmike@... 9/17/08; don't take long-term w/o medical

> > supervision; " Paw Paw is standardized, while Graviola is

> not…video in

> > which a researcher…tested Graviola and Paw Paw…both contain the

> same

> > therapeutic alkaloid…in one batch of Graviola, the active

> alkaloid was

> > 24 times weaker than Paw Paw, and in another batch, 56 times weaker "

> > " [Paw paw and graviola] do limit ATP production. Most of

> their effect

> > is on rapidly growing cells...might produce some fatigue at

> > first...Only use these products with food in the stomach. Initially

> > there was a lot of concern that...antioxidants might inhibit paw

> paw.

> > This has proven untrue, for the most part. Some reasonable

> > supplementation with antioxidants is ok. You might still want to

> avoid

> > coenzyme Q10 and any type of drug that stimulates the thyroid "

> > goldenmike@... 9/08

> > " paw paw acts on cancer via acetogenins, just like graviola,

> > suffocating the cancer cell by interfering with its oxidative

> > mechanisms. As with graviola, it's the leaves that are used for

> > cancer…. Acetogenins, found in paw paw and graviola, interfere

> with

> > oxidative (cell energy) mechanisms, involving NADH (niacin based)

> and

> > [CoQ10]…. action of acetogenins is on the oxidative mechanisms for

> > energy production of the cell, involving NAD/H [and

> > CoQ10]…antioxidants and CoQ10…might be supplying it to the

> cancer

> > cell…negating the…acetogenins. [see] Alali, et al., " Annonaceous

> > acetogenins: Recent progress " in J. Nat. Prod., 1999, vol 62, pp

> > 504-540…. http://www.freemedicaljournals.com

> <http://www.freemedicaljournals.com>…. take the

> acetogenins

> > several hours apart from the antioxidants "

> > " Jerry McLoughlin, the originator of Paw Paw extract for Nature's

> > Sunshine...said that if the usual dose of 4 capsules of Paw Paw a

> day

> > does not bring desired results, a person can go higher

> > without risking any serious problems besides nausea and

> > vomiting….herbalist [ Easley] said he had taken some of his

> > clients up as high as 20 capsules daily, the reason being, of

> course,

> > that some people who do not see tumor diminution at 4 capsules a day

> > do see it at higher doses " . " Tony Bell...has for a long time been

> > recommending that Protocel and Paw Paw be taken TOGETHER....Tony has

> > told me several times that people who have taken Protocel and Paw

> Paw

> > together have obtained very good results. "

> > For more info, www.annieappleseedproject.org/pawpawfruita.html

> (Schachter)

> > www.handpen.com/cancell/paw.htm

> > www.healthy-sunshine.com/paw-paw-cell-reg.asp (to order; Nature's

> > Sunshine)

> >

>

>