Hormones

[Guest guest]

a,

You have to tell me!!! LOL

LIsa

From: " a " <shoutjoy@...>

Reply-

Subject: Re: hormones

Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 21:29:49 -0000

Hi!!! Well.. I have to tell ya. The patch did diddily squat for me

and my gyny put me on some kick bootie hormones that turned me into a

tiger and I wanted to eat every guy in sight!! I had to cut out one

of them because it got so bad lol. Oh my..... I cannot believe it.

I don't know if I should tell you what she gave me. I'd hate Dr. R

to have to fight off all these " hot " women at the banquet in December

LOL. Hmmmmm....

aW

>

> Hey all,

>

> Is anyone else on the estrogen patch? I'm 3 1/2 months out and am

ready to

> kill someone....my hormones are starting to effect me. Dana gave

me a

> perscription after surgery in July. I've waited till I thought I

needed it.

> Since then I lost the perscription and have been overwhelmingly

MEAN! I

> don't get weepy or anything just MEAN and Irritable. My poor

husband has to

> deal with it till I get the patch. He says He's never seen me this

bad.

> Poor Guy. How long after surgery did any of you have to be on the

patch?

> Symptoms? Sex Drive? I have none.

>

>

> July 10, 2002

> 278/225

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Get faster connections -- switch to MSN Internet Access!

> http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp

_________________________________________________________________

Surf the Web without missing calls! Get MSN Broadband.

http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp

[Guest guest]

Email me privately and I'll tell ya teehee

a

-- Re: hormones

Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 21:29:49 -0000

Hi!!! Well.. I have to tell ya. The patch did diddily squat for me

and my gyny put me on some kick bootie hormones that turned me into a

tiger and I wanted to eat every guy in sight!! I had to cut out one

of them because it got so bad lol. Oh my..... I cannot believe it.

I don't know if I should tell you what she gave me. I'd hate Dr. R

to have to fight off all these " hot " women at the banquet in December

LOL. Hmmmmm....

aW

>

> Hey all,

>

> Is anyone else on the estrogen patch? I'm 3 1/2 months out and am

ready to

> kill someone....my hormones are starting to effect me. Dana gave

me a

> perscription after surgery in July. I've waited till I thought I

needed it.

> Since then I lost the perscription and have been overwhelmingly

MEAN! I

> don't get weepy or anything just MEAN and Irritable. My poor

husband has to

> deal with it till I get the patch. He says He's never seen me this

bad.

> Poor Guy. How long after surgery did any of you have to be on the

patch?

> Symptoms? Sex Drive? I have none.

>

>

> July 10, 2002

> 278/225

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Get faster connections -- switch to MSN Internet Access!

> http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp

_________________________________________________________________

Surf the Web without missing calls! Get MSN Broadband.

http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp

[Guest guest]

Pregnancy did that to me, a. <lol>

in OK

_____________________________________________________

my gyny put me on some kick bootie hormones that turned me into a

tiger and I wanted to eat every guy in sight!!

[Guest guest]

THAT is not a possibility with me lol. Unfortunately never have been and

never will be.

a

-- Re: hormones

Pregnancy did that to me, a. <lol>

in OK

_____________________________________________________

my gyny put me on some kick bootie hormones that turned me into a

tiger and I wanted to eat every guy in sight!!

[Guest guest]

I worry about people taking all these various hormones--growth

hormone, cortisol, thyroid etc. I do think thyroid has been

demonstrated to be safe if you have a deficiency, but I don't think

growth hormone has, and I've heard bad stories about long-term low

dose cortisol. I wish everybody the best but please consider that

hormones are powerful drugs.

[Guest guest]

The same could be said of any drug or supplement; that they can have

negative effects in some people. Certainly there are bad experiences out

there if you look at most of the treatments discussed on this list, hormones

included. But there are also people who have had tremendous benefit from the

use of hormones. Since hormones have to be prescribed by doctors, and have

to be used under their supervision, it seems a little moot to be warning

people about the risks involved in using them. If their doctors had concerns

about it, they would be free to refuse to prescribe it.

Besides, this is an experimental list. The statement at the bottom of every

post to this list states " This list is intended for patients to share

personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you

are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. "

The whole point of this list is for people to tell about their experiences

using experimental treatments, and they've already been warned to consult

with their doctors about any treatments that they may consider.

Aside from that, if you have reference to studies that support your views,

or medical training that qualifies you to make that kind of assessment for

other people, by all means post them. Otherwise it is people's prerogative

to decide for themselves how they view the use of hormones in their own

individual treatment.

As far as I'm concerned, I don't consider hormones to be in the same

category as drugs, any more than I consider water to be in the same category

as drugs. Certainly water can have powerful effects, and can be detrimental

if used inappropriately. People can have deficiencies of water, and people

can have too much water. And there are people who have suffered considerable

harm and death from the use of water. There are far more people who have

been harmed by water than have been harmed by hormonal treatments. But

nobody is suggesting that we should consider water to be a dangerous drug.

It is a necessary chemical to allow the proper function of the human body.

Hormones are also necessary chemicals to allow the proper function of the

human body. I'm not saying that they are as benign as using water. The

analogy may not be precise, but the idea is that drugs and hormones are in

two very different categories.

I consider drugs to be chemicals that are foreign to the human body, that

are prescribed not to relieve a deficiency, or to correct a dysfunction, but

to suppress symptoms. Personally, I think that hormones are preferable

treatments to some of the more traditional treatments out there for PWC's

that are intended only to alleviate symptoms. But that's just my personal

opinion. You're free to believe what you want. But I don't feel that

anything you've said is sufficient to make me believe likewise.

But quite frankly, this has all been said in the past on the list before.

Hormones have been discussed extensively, and anyone who wants to understand

more about the controversy involved in them only has to go back through the

archives and read the tons of posts on this issue. The archives are a very

valuable source of information, and there has been a lot said about the

safety and risks of using different hormones, including posts from people

who have a lot more credible references to back their recommendations for

use.

lindaj@...

Re: hormones

> I worry about people taking all these various hormones--growth

> hormone, cortisol, thyroid etc. I do think thyroid has been

> demonstrated to be safe if you have a deficiency, but I don't think

> growth hormone has, and I've heard bad stories about long-term low

> dose cortisol. I wish everybody the best but please consider that

> hormones are powerful drugs.

[Guest guest]

> I worry about people taking all these various hormones--growth

> hormone, cortisol, thyroid etc. I do think thyroid has been

> demonstrated to be safe if you have a deficiency, but I don't

think

> growth hormone has, and I've heard bad stories about long-term low

> dose cortisol. I wish everybody the best but please consider that

> hormones are powerful drugs.

I just want to say you are so wrong from my own experience.

I have got my life back thanks to taking Armour for my underactive

thyroid at 2 grains together with LOW DOSE hydrocortisone which

later my doc changed to Prednisone 5mg, but still low dose.

If one has worn out adrenals which I certainly did have one can but

benefit from giving them a rest and helping the body to recover but

taking low dose h/c or Prednisone. The symptoms of low adrenals are

well known and very similar to low thyroid, ie low body temperature,

weak pulse, low bp, low blood sugar attacks day and night, panic

attacks, dizziness, severe migraines. If you think it is preferably

to put up with symptoms like this and lead no sort of life rather

than take low dose hormones then that is up to you. I think you

should read Dr Jeffries book " Safe Use of Cortisol " and maybe this

will change your mind.

I would like to add that now after 14 months of helping my adrenals

with steroids I now no longer need them. My adrenals have recovered

just like Dr Peatfield in his book " The Great Thyroid Scandal and

How to Survive It and Dr Jeffries mentioned in his books. However I

would never hesitate to restart the hormones for the adrenals if

sometime in the future the horrendous symptoms came back. As I have

now started abx to treat the borrelia I doubt this will happen.

I have antibodies to my thyroid so I have to continue with the 2

grains of Armour. In general I feel good, just some bad days if I

do miles too much but now I always recover within 2 days at the most.

Please don't put other people off researching and trying hormonal

treatment if their bodies need it.

My website gives lots of advice re the adrenals and thyroid,

www.bertiedog.com. I have got to update the site with regard to the

borrelia issue. BTW you are experiencing the power of hormones

every day because if your body didn't produce them you would be dead

and this includes steroid hormones!

Pam

[Guest guest]

If their doctors had concerns

> about it, they would be free to refuse to prescribe it.

Doctors were prescribing estrogen freely as HRP until the research

came out about increased dangers of cardiac disease and cancer. Now

they are more cautious. This was big news in mainstream media in

recent years. Doctors go by accepted wisdom of what's out there,

often, and often that's wrong.

I remember interviewing the head of research at Strang many many

years ago. He was explaining that colon, prostate, and breast cancer

are hormone (particularly estrogen) dependent and the studies that

were being done on broccoli at the time, and about the end-

metabolites of estrogen, and the genes that regulated them--and how

you could shift the activity of the gene, and thus the metabolite

(some are more carcinogenic than others) by changes in diet...very

good work. How many doctors talk about this? Exogenous hormones are

tumor promoters.

>

> Besides, this is an experimental list. The statement at the bottom

of every

> post to this list states " This list is intended for patients to

share

> personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice.

I didn't give medical advice. I expressed concern in a kind way.

Apparently that is threatening? Someone else posts a " warning " about

infrared, and how it affected them. Is that " wrong " ?

Otherwise it is people's prerogative

> to decide for themselves how they view the use of hormones in their

own

> individual treatment.

Of course its their perogative, as is free speech, and is a short

post expressing concern. So what is the problem? Did I order people

to stop taking hormones? Did I rant on people? What was the great

impropriety in my post?

>

> As far as I'm concerned, I don't consider hormones to be in the same

> category as drugs, any more than I consider water to be in the same

category

> as drugs.

Then perhaps you don't undersand the complexity of the choreography

of the hormonal system in the body, and the crude attempts at

replacement that consist of giving a pill. Most doctors for instance

who give HRT to women give it in cookie cutter boxes, they don't

measure testosterone, and they give hormones that are not close

enough mimics of human hormones (thus the progestins used in most

pills are actually detrimetnal to the body.) Natural hormones are

certainly easier to assimilate, but to take them without

understanding the risks concerns me. I recently interviewed a woman

who--post cancer and chemotherapy--was very ill, very fatigued, etc.

Her doc put her on two forms of estrogen, t4, t3, and testosterone if

I recall correctly. In any case hse was on 6 hormones which her doc

and she were convicned she needed. Then after a few years of that

she went to an ayurvedic practitioner adn completely changed her

lifestyle and eating habits, etc. And she went cold turkey off the

hormones. In her own words, she is feeling better than she ever did

in her life. Her ayurvedic physician confirms this. Thus she did

not have any hormone deficiencies--not organically, anyway. She

needed to rebuilt her system from a deeper and more nourishing level.

THis is not to say ayurveda will work for everyone, I am simply

saying that hormones are powerful, sometimes harmful, sometimes

promote tumors, and that perhaps there are other, better methods to

address underlying illness.

Certainly water can have powerful effects, and can be detrimental

> if used inappropriately. People can have deficiencies of water, and

people

> can have too much water.

This is just not an appropriate answer, because all our hormones

ineract with each other in a very complex feedback loop that we

cannot possibly imitate from the outside. If there is damage to an

organ, such as the thyroid, and it simply can't produce the hormone,

or the pancreas, then you have to take it. But as I discussed with

you in a private email, anyone who knows a bit about Type I diabetes

knows that although insulin saves their lives, they are unable even

with an insulin pump to closely imitate the body's perfectly

callibrated response of insulin release in respnose to blood sugar

surges. And thus they overshoot the mark so often that they still

get all the end organ damage that is due to insulin. To read more

about this you can look into Bruce McEwen's work at Rockefeller and

his new book, The End of Stress.

You're free to believe what you want. But I don't feel that

> anything you've said is sufficient to make me believe likewise.

I wasn't addressing a post particularly to you and I really don't

mind if you take 40 hormones a day. I do hope some on this list

consider what I'm saying. And this is a lot of effort on my part to

post all this information, but what the heck. It's stuff I already

know. But it's taking a lot of typing. I never intended to be

anybody's " hormone marshall. "

Enough said.

[Guest guest]

>

> I just want to say you are so wrong from my own experience.

Why are you and the other poster, , so intense about my stating

a concern? I'm glad it helped you. But it has harmed others. Is

there a problem with stating concern about this?

> Please don't put other people off researching and trying hormonal

> treatment if their bodies need it.

Maybe their bodies don't need it. Some may benefit, others may not.

See my other post. My view is proceed with extreme caution. If that

bothers you, so be it. I am not saying all hormones are bad no

matter what. I do think usually there are better, safer ways, though

not always.

[Guest guest]

Re: hormones

> I remember interviewing the head of research at Strang many many

> years ago. He was explaining that colon, prostate, and breast cancer

> are hormone (particularly estrogen) dependent and the studies that

> were being done on broccoli at the time, and about the end-

> metabolites of estrogen, and the genes that regulated them--and how

> you could shift the activity of the gene, and thus the metabolite

> (some are more carcinogenic than others) by changes in diet...very

> good work. How many doctors talk about this? Exogenous hormones are

> tumor promoters.

Actually, there are lot of doctors who talk about this, and have been

talking about this before the HRT study was done, and for a long time before

that. There have been alternative medical practitioners that have been

talking about it even longer yet. And that's part of the point that you seem

to be missing. There has been a lot of study about hormones for a long time.

Mainstream medicine is only just beginning to learn how to use them

appropriately because mainstream medicine seems to take forever to go from

research studies to how doctors practice medicine. They don't like to admit

they're wrong. But there have been doctors and researchers and alternative

medical practitioners for a long time who have been learning and researching

about hormones, long before now. Just because mainstream doctors haven't

jumped on the band wagon doesn't make them right.

You, yourself have already conceeded that doctors aren't always right. Even

the head of Strang isn't entirely right, and is only seeing part of the

picture. While hormones may be a part of the picture, immune dysfunction,

pathogens, genetics, and other factors may play as big as or greater part in

it. And diet isn't the sole answer, or even the answer in many cases. I

think that diet is blamed for as much things inappropriately as

psychological issues. After all, there are those that say that eating meat

contributes to cancer. But certainly there are vegetarians and vegans who

get cancer. There are those that claim that eating sugar causes cancer. But

there are many people who eat sugar all their lives and don't get cancer.

They're now saying that antibiotic use can cause breast cancer. The theories

keep changing. And I think that none of it is seeing the entire picture.

I've known some people who were very stringent about eating healthy vegan

diets, who died of cancer. (including prostate cancer) But diet, after all,

is something that people can control, and therefore, blaming diet for cancer

(or any other illness) takes the responsibility off the shoulders of

chemical manufacturers, CDC, or whoever else might be involved in increasing

the risks of those types of cancer. It's all too easy to blame something

that doesn't make you look bad, and makes you not have to feel guilty for

the pain and suffering of other people. There are those who blamed PWC's for

getting CFS because of diet. In my case, I've been raised in a very health

oriented family, chosen to eat a very health oriented diet as an adult.

Organic, raw foods, vegan, ER4YT, and all that stuff, and I still got CFS.

As far as hormones contributing to the above mentioned cancers, that's just

the kind of scare tactic used to prevent people from using hormones. But in

those cases, it's not the actual hormones that cause the cancers, but the

way the body processes those hormones that is the problem. And just blaming

those cancers on hormones is taking the whole issue out of context.

While the information that you seem to be basing your fears on is one side

of the story, you are not reading all that's out there about hormones. As

I've suggested before, you might want to go back through the archives and

read what has already been posted about the issue of hormones. There are

references to web sites and books that can provide very good information

about the other side of the story. Rather than just reacting in fear to

something you don't understand, and assuming that what you already know is

sufficient to explain the whole story, read the other side of the story.

You're only listening to one side of the story. Find out why people are

considering using hormones. It is a mistake to assume that because you don't

understand it, nobody can understand it. It is a mistake to assume that the

things you have read are the whole story. I can't stress enough how

important it is to read both sides of the issue. Find out what the

proponents for hormone use are saying, before passing judgement. It is

predjudicial and closed minded to just read one side of the issue.

> If their doctors had concerns

> > about it, they would be free to refuse to prescribe it.

>

> Doctors were prescribing estrogen freely as HRP until the research

> came out about increased dangers of cardiac disease and cancer. Now

> they are more cautious. This was big news in mainstream media in

> recent years. Doctors go by accepted wisdom of what's out there,

> often, and often that's wrong.

The same could be said for doctors misunderstanding of hormones and refusing

to treat patients with hormone deficiency problems. Doctors are often wrong,

as you say. There are growing numbers of doctors who once refused to put

patients on hormones, and are now willing to do so because they are seeing

that their patients benefit from them. Waiting around for something to

become " accepted wisdom " before accepting it would mean waiting forever, in

some cases. While estrogen therapy may be diminishing, because by itself

(and with unnatural man-made progestin's) it causes problems, other hormonal

use is increasing because some doctors,who are questiong the accepted

wisdom, are finding that it helps to resolve suffering.

Part of what is making them change their minds is the fact that science is

learning more all the time about how hormones interact in the body, and how

to test for their deficiencies, and how to better avoid the potential side

effects and how to manage appropriate dosage. While it might have been valid

to be fearful of using hormones at one point, that is an outdated and

inappropriate view. Doctors who are opening up their minds to better

understand the hormone issue are using that knowledge to help people who

suffer, rather than turning their backs on them. Waiting until we know

everything about an illness or body pathway before treating it amounts to

cruelty.

You make it sound like hormone use is a total mystery. It might help ease

your fears for you to spend some time learning more about hormones as used

by the doctors who are prescribing them. You keep assuming that I know

nothing about hormones. And I'll admit that I don't know everything that's

out there about hormones. (Obviously you don't either) But I have read quite

a bit that seems to conradict what you have written. And what I've read has

convinced me that hormones aren't the evil problems that you are making them

out to be. They're in fact, not dangerous drugs.

I'm sure there are people who don't use them responsibly. I'm sure there are

people who are inappropriately prescribed hormones. I'm sure there are

people who suffer harm because of them. Your example of damage caused by

insulin is a good example of inappropriate use of hormones, but it wouldn't

justify trying to discourage people who have insulin deficiencies from using

insulin.

I happen to know several diabetics who use insulin. Some of them are very

responsible, and in good health, and some of them have used them

irresponsibly, and have problems as a result. It was their own choice, as

adults, of whether or not they wanted to be responsible or not. It was their

choice of how they choose to go about treating thier diabetis. And it

wouldn't be appropriate for me to be going around worrying about those

choices that they make. They're all adults, and they're responsible for the

choices that they make. It would not be just to tell someone who needs

insulin that because there are irresponsible people, that therefore they

should fear insulin, and cause them unnecessary worry and guilt. It woudn't

justify trying to discourage people who have real health issues because of

insufficient insulin, which in my opinion is a far more serious thing. (and

just as likely to be deadly, if not more so) It seems inappropriate to be

worrying about the damage that insulin might cause, if the damage for not

using insulin holds just as serous or even more serious consequences. By

promoting a fear of insulin, you would only be discouraging people who might

need it from trying it. Fear never creates a balanced approach. Fear is

driven by rumors, not facts. Fear evokes guilt and worry in people. I think

that those are things we have too much of in this world, already. I think

it's time to start taking a more balanced perspective of things, and that

includes the issue of hormone use.

> Besides, this is an experimental list. The statement at the bottom

> of every

> > post to this list states " This list is intended for patients to

> share

> > personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice.

>

> I didn't give medical advice. I expressed concern in a kind way.

> Apparently that is threatening? Someone else posts a " warning " about

> infrared, and how it affected them. Is that " wrong " ?

They didn't express it in the same way that you did. While you intended to

make it sound like you were concerned for people's well being, you also

seemed to be judging people as incapable of understanding the issue, and

making an imperative statement about how people should think. And that

statement was based on your discomfort of other people's choices, not on any

logical presentation of why you feel the way you do, or why hormones should

be considered drugs, or what kind of harm they may have caused you.

The post on the warning about FIR suana was someone's personal experience.

If you have had a bad experience with hormones, then by all means share it.

And if you had a bad experience with hormones, I would understand why you

would fear them. But it seems out of perspective to be worrying about the

issue if it isn't an issue that you have to deal with.

I can respect that everyone is different and not everyone will benefit from

something. But you seem bent on discouraging others from using something

that you obviously have not personally experienced, only based on rumors,

" accepted wisdom " and what you claim was someone who crashed from low dose

cortisol use in the medical clinic that you worked in. That even is based on

assumptions rather than facts. We can't tell if their low dose was truly low

dose based on what you wrote, or if the way they managed their treatment was

responsibly done, or if they were misusing the hormones, or if there were

other issues involved, such as pathogens or autoimmune reaction. There are

plenty of doctors whose low dose isn't really low dose, or who

inappropriately prescribe things. Of course, there are also doctors who

inappropriately prescribe all kinds of things, but it isn't a sufficient

reason to try to discourage people from seeing doctors. You can always find

someone who has had a bad experience with something. But that doesn't mean

that it is going to be a bad experience for everyone, or even a bad

experience for the majority. And unless research can verify that there is

considerable harm potential for the majority of people that use hormone

treatment, that outweights the benefit of it, it is unfair to make

assertions that it is so.

You're trying to make other people agree with you by creating fear with

rumors, rather than by providing factual evidence to support your beliefs.

The other side of the coin is all those people who are helped immensely by

hormone treatment, and the doctors and research that support its use. You

can't cut them out of the equation. It imbalances it to only focus on the

negative, and makes it seem like there is only negative. It's that kind of

distortion of things that I find offensive. If you can produce research

abstracts, or other supporting evidence, I would listen. But you posted " I

wish everybody the best but please consider that

hormones are powerful drugs. " and then you don't back up your statement with

anything to prove it. You expect people to believe what you say based soley

on a biased personal opinion. You think that your good intentions are enough

to convince me that your way of thinking is an appropriate way for me to

think.

The way I understand that statement is that you are telling me that I have

to think the same way you do, saying " you have to consider drugs hormones "

not saying, " I consider hormones to be powerful drugs, and here's why " and

allowing me to decide for myself. The difference between the two statements

is one of you trying to control me, or one of you allowing me to think for

myself, and respecting my right to think for myself. If you're going to be

giving us direct orders on how we should think, at the least you could treat

us with respect for the right to view things differently, and let people be.

You don't need to be worried for all of us, and think you have to do

something about it.

I don't feel it is your obligation to worry about others in this case. If I

felt it was necessary to worry about my own personal choices of how I manage

my own personal medical care, I can do my own worrying for myself. When

people start worrying about how other people manage their medical care, who

they don't have any responsibility for, or any personal experience with

those issues, they start finding ways to prevent them from using their own

judgement to make medical decisions for themselves. There are too many

bossy, assertive people out there who think that their way is the right. At

the extreme, they try to interfere with laws that restrict our right to make

our own choices about how we treat our own bodies. But even on the other end

of the scale, there are people who are trying to control how other people

thing by creating misplaced fear taken out of context, by twisting the truth

to make it seem worse than it really is, or one of hundreds of other ways.

I've been on this list for a long time, and seen that happen over and over,

and it's killed the quality of this list. This used to be one of the most

informative lists that I've been on. Now people are afraid to discuss things

because someone will come along and try to shoot down the discussion with

fear and rumors, and imply that only stupid people will consider those types

of treatments.

It's very easy to spread rumors around, and create fear. That obviously has

influenced you. And you are trying to use the same method to influence

others. While your intentions may have been good in your mind, your

intentions haven't been good in mine. I think they are a threat to the open

minded discussion of hormones. How you've gone about doing it only promotes

more rumors and fear. There is a lot of information on how to safely use

hormones out there for people to read, based on facts and scientific

research, not on rumor and fear. There are a lot of people on the list who

use hormones, and have good reason to use hormones, and can benefit others

by talking about it. If you want to go around spreading rumor, that's your

business. But don't be surprised if people challenge you for doing so,

especially if you yourself are not personally dealing with this issue. I

think that personal experience holds a lot of weight. Scientific research

holds a lot of weight. Rumors don't.

At the least, if you are having anxiety problems about other people's use of

medical treatments, then perhaps you have a problem that you need to resolve

with excessive worry. Worrying about other people who you don't have to be

responsible for can be considered a sign of an anxiety disorder. I'm not

saying that you have an anxiety disorder. But it isn't necessary to worry

about how other people choose to manage their medical care, if it doesn't

have any impact on you.

> > As far as I'm concerned, I don't consider hormones to be in the same

> > category as drugs, any more than I consider water to be in the same

> category

> > as drugs.

>

> Then perhaps you don't undersand the complexity of the choreography

> of the hormonal system in the body, and the crude attempts at

> replacement that consist of giving a pill.

Perhaps you also don't understand the issue of hormones, and you would

prefer that people suffer, rather than make " crute attempts " at trying to

resolve their problems.

Nobody is saying that taking hormones is ideal. But people are using them to

treat very real and dibilitating problems, and without them their lives will

be far worse. So regardless of the fact that giving hormones supplementally

isn't ideal, the consequences of NOT giving them is often worse. And you can

discourage people from considering them by playing on their fears, and

ignoring their need. Taking a one-sided stand based on fears and rumors is a

good way to prevent people from getting help.

Even worse, you're lumping all hormones together - insulin, cortisol,

estrogen... and treating them all as though they have equal risk, and all

cause the same problems, and are all equally misunderstood. I'm sure you can

dig up all kinds of examples of hormone replacement problems that people

have had. But that doesn't in any way take the suffering for NOT replacing

those hormones into consideration. What you're doing is attacking people who

may very well NEED hormones, for their survival, or to improve the quality

of their lives to a tolerable level. You're lumping everyone together,

whether they are inappropriately using hormones, or are in valid need of

hormones when you say that you " worry about people. " As long as you feel

it's necessary to lump everything together, and call it all dangerous, then

you're twisting things out of context.

I happen to use alternative medical treatments that work to repair hormonal

systems without the use of hormones or supplements. But that doesn't mean

that I believe that's the only way to treat hormone issues. And in fact, so

far, the treatments haven't worked for me. For the record, I don't use

thyroid hormone, or cortisol, even though I have a deficiency of both. I

haven't had my growth hormone levels tested but I don't doubt that they're

also deficient. I do use progesterone and melatonin. And I may eventually

chose to use hormones to resolve the problem, if what I'm currently doing

doesn't work. In my case, it's not a matter of whether or not I believe in

hormone use, it's a problem of not being able to find a doctor that I feel I

can place my confidence in, and who is willing to cooperate with me, as a

result of living in a very conservative rural community with lack of good

medical care. I think that supplemental growth hormone would help to

increase the quality of my life. But it's unfortunatley not an option open

to me. But that doesn't mean I don't believe in it.

Nor do I think it's within the reach of everyone to have access to

alternative medical care that is appropriate for their problems. I have to

travel out of state to get the alternative medical treatment that I do, and

it puts a huge burden on my family financially, and is a huge stressor for

me. I'm sure that there are many that simply can't afford alternative

treatments, simply can't cope with the stress involved in seeking it out,

don't have insurance that will cover the cost of alternative treatments, but

do have insurance that will cover the cost of hormone replacement therapy.

So for them, they don't have much of an option. You seem to sound like you

would agree that there are times when hormones are the only option. So why

make it sound like all people need to be afraid of them? Calling them

powerful drugs is not only a misstatement, but it also plays on people's

fears, and causes people to suffer unnecessary grief.

And I also don't believe that alternative medicine works for everyone. One

person may have success but be made worse by it, and you're back to the same

issue that alternative medical treatments like ayurvedic are even less

scientific, and less accurate, and hold just as much potential to cause

harm. They don't necessarily work for everyone, and they can backfire with

some people and cause more problems than they help. I've had some

alternative medical treatments that have left me in worse shape than before.

But that doesn't make me fear alternative medical care, or try to discourage

others from using it. I can respect others who have different opinions and

different experiences.

For other people, alternative medical treatments often aren't within

people's financial reach, especially people who have been disabled, and have

to depend on SSDI or medicade, or have limited income, or who have insurance

policies that limit coverage. I think that people have to choose the

treatment that they feel most comfortable with, and that they have access

to, and that works for them,and that they can afford. And it's not always

going to be ideal. But it doesn't have to cause people to live in fear of

getting help that they do have available to them. I don't think it's

responsible to try to make them afraid of something that holds the potential

to benefit them just because some people have had problems with it, or it

makes some people uncomfortable because of their own phobias or fears.

I drive a car, even though it's likely that some time in my life I will be

in a car accident. At least that's what the statistics say. I can't go

around worrying about whether or not it is safe for me to drive a car, or

whether or not other people may get in accidents.It would be inappropriate

to worry about all those other people who drive cars, or try to tell all

those people who drive cars that they should consider cars to be a very

dangerous form of transportation. That's a little neurotic. While it may not

be an exact analogy, the point is that there are balances between worrying

about others and accepting that others are going to make mistakes and have

problems, and have the right to make choices without having people play on

their fears. You can't go around worrying about all the things that are

going to go wrong for everyone else.

I don't happen to have access to an ayurvedic practitioner. And there are

alternative medical treatments that I feel would probably benefit me, but

are way outside of my financial reach, or my ability to travel to them. What

alternative medical things I do have to be paid for out of my own pocket.

Regardless of whether or not I think some of those other forms of

alternative medical care may be beneficial, it isn't an option for me. And

to tell me that the options that I have chosen are dangerous and that I

should be afraid of them would be inappropriate. My medical care is my own

business.

But now that you've brought it up, it might have sounded a little better for

you to have made some suggestions on alternatives that people could choose

instead of hormones, rather than just trying to instill fear in people, and

telling them they have to think the way you do. Instead of just praying on

people's fears, treat people with respect, and treat them as though they

have brains. And respect their right to think differently than you do There

were more appropriate ways for you to express your concerns without being so

bossy. And there are some issues that are none of your concern.

> Certainly water can have powerful effects, and can be detrimental

> > if used inappropriately. People can have deficiencies of water, and

> people

> > can have too much water.

>

> This is just not an appropriate answer, because all our hormones

> ineract with each other in a very complex feedback loop that we

> cannot possibly imitate from the outside.

So does water. Water very much does interact with other things in the body

in a very complex system. I don't see how calling it inappropriate changes

the point that I was making. And calling my answer inappropriate without

giving an adequate explaination of why you think it is inappropriate is

nothing more than another way of trying to distort things.

So why is my example of water an inappropriate answer? I consider it to be

quite appropriate, in light of the fact that I was using it as an analogy

that seems to have escaped you. You haven't said anything to address why you

think it is inappropriate. Instead, you just change the subject and start

talking about hormones again, as though water has nothing at all to do with

the issue. I'm sorry that you didn't understand the analogy. But that in no

way makes my analogy inappropriate. You seem to have no problems recognizing

that hormones interact, but you seem to have difficulty understanding that

hormones aren't the only things in the body that interact. Which leads me

believe that you either didn't really read what I wrote, or you really don't

understand body chemistry. I'm guessing the former, though I also question

your understanding of body chemistry. You read the words, but somehow you're

missing the intent. As a result, you're nitpicking things that are being

taken out of context, and putting your own negative label on them without

any justification.

Personally, I think that your responses have been inappropriate, because

they play on people's fears without presenting the whole truth or looking at

both sides of the issue, take things out of context to prove your point,

make judgement statements about things without explaining it, and make

assumptions about me without knowing anything about me. I think it's

inappropriate to call someone's use of an analogy inappropriate just because

you don't get it.

If there is damage to an

> organ, such as the thyroid, and it simply can't produce the hormone,

> or the pancreas, then you have to take it.

Suddenly you are changing your tune. There are other organs in the body that

produce hormones besides the thyroid gland. Thyroid gland isn't the only

gland. That's postulated from your statement. While thyroid hormone might be

the hormone that you most feel understanding about, it is hardly the only

organ that produces hormones, or the only hormone that people may be

deficient in. That so far is something that you seem to agree with. But if

you had in the beginning stated that you believed that some people needed to

take supplemental hormones, it wouldn't have sounded like such an affront to

me. It also sounds like you are somehow putting thyroid hormones into a

different category from other hormones when it's convenient, and then

lumping all hormones together when it's convenient, talking about the

" complexity of the choreography of the hormonal system in the body. " You

even treat insulin as though it is somehow just as necessary to be feared as

other hormones, painting a fear synario around the use of insulin, which

doesn't make sense to me. If someone needs supplemental hormones, then they

should not have a guilt trip laid on them for taking them. And you might

have explained this in the beginning, instead of making such generalized

statements that pretty much made it sound like you thought hormones for

everyone were bad.

But as I discussed with

> you in a private email, anyone who knows a bit about Type I diabetes

> knows that although insulin saves their lives, they are unable even

> with an insulin pump to closely imitate the body's perfectly

> callibrated response of insulin release in respnose to blood sugar

> surges. And thus they overshoot the mark so often that they still

> get all the end organ damage that is due to insulin. To read more

> about this you can look into Bruce McEwen's work at Rockefeller and

> his new book, The End of Stress.

Perhaps you might consider reading the books that Pam has suggested to you,

or to read through the archives to see what others have had to say about the

issue of hormones which are more appropriate for this discussion, since

insulin is not the issue that is the problem here. The problem is thyroid

hormones, growth hormones, cortisol, etc. They're the most likely hormones

to be involved in CFS treatment.

>

> You're free to believe what you want. But I don't feel that

> > anything you've said is sufficient to make me believe likewise.

>

> I wasn't addressing a post particularly to you and I really don't

> mind if you take 40 hormones a day. I do hope some on this list

> consider what I'm saying. And this is a lot of effort on my part to

> post all this information, but what the heck. It's stuff I already

> know. But it's taking a lot of typing. I never intended to be

> anybody's " hormone marshall. "

>

> Enough said.

The problem with making blanket assumptions about hormonal use for everyone

is that you then put everyone into the same category of who you are

addressing your post to. Every one of us has individual problems and needs,

and to just tell all of us that hormones are powerful drugs and that you

worry about people in general taking them is to be addressing everyone who

needs them, everyone who would benefit from them, everyone who doesn't need

them, and of course everyone who disagrees with you. It is addressed to

everyone. Which " some " are you hoping will consider what you are saying? The

some that need hormone replacement therapy? The some that are already taking

hormones? The some that benefit from hormone replacement therapy? The some

that might benefit from hormone therapy? The some that have read things that

you apparently have not?

I'm sure you were intending to address it to the some that might suffer harm

from hormone use. (Though being able to tell who would benefit and who would

not depends on a lot of things, some of which is very controllable, and none

of which is your responsibility) But you used generalized statements that

included everyone else. And that then made those statements addressed to me,

because I am included in that some, somewhere. But without telling people

how to differentiate who your comments were addresed to, the only

alternative is for people to apply your statements to them - everyone. And

that's how you addressed the initial post. You said, " I worry about people

taking all these various hormones--growth

hormone, cortisol, thyroid etc. " That etc. includes me, since I use

progesterone and melatonin.

While I don't use thyroid hormones, or cortisol, or insulin, or estrogen

replacement therapy, I do feel that people have the right to decide for

themselves whether or not they should use those therapies, and I don't think

it is responsible to play on their fears if I am not in need of those

treatments. I also don't think it's appropriate to express opinion as fact,

without supporting evidence, especially when there is controversy about it.

People on this list are turning to the use of hormones because they are

becoming informed about their use. While it is apparent that you haven't

read the information that they are using to inform themselves, it doesn't

mean that it doesn't exist. And all too often people inappropriately pass

judgement on things that they haven't learned sufficient information about.

I've read things from both sides of the issues. I've read the warnings and

the fears, and the problems, and I've also read the perspectives of doctors

who use hormones, and the patients who use them, and research that supports

their use. Maybe I haven't read all of it, but then neither have you. I know

that there can be problems, and that science doesn't know everything about

hormones. But there are many diseases out there that science doesn't

understand but is having success at treating. There are many area's of

alternative medicine that science doesn't understand at all. But that isn't

a reason to abandon treating those things that aren't understood and allow

people to just suffer, or to try to make people fear those treatments.

Your example of ayurvedic treatments is a good example of something that

really doesn't have a lot of scientific research to completely understand.

While there is some research that has been done on it, there is also a lot

that hasn't been researched about it. There is a lot we don't know about how

it works. There is the possibily that it can make people worse. But that is

not an excuse to play on people's fears, and try to discourage them from

using ayurvedic treatments, any more than what we dont' know about hormones

being used as an excuse to play on people's fears to try to discourage them

from using it, just because it makes you feel uncomfortable. People are able

to think for themselves, and make decisions for themselves. And they don't

have to choose their medical care based on what would make you feel more

comfortable. You have to respect people's personal boundries, and be

responsible in how you go about influencing people. And if they choose to

not listen, or choose to believe differently than you, then you need to just

let it go. Stop worrying about it. You can't worry about everyone or

everything. If it isn't something that concerns you, then maybe it isn't

something you should be concerned about.

Let me just say that I want to have the issue of hormones discussed, because

it's a subject that I'm interested in. I want to hear about people's

experience, and I don't want them to be afraid to express it, just because

it makes someone on the list uncomfortable. I hate to see someone come along

who is uncomfortable with the level of risks they believe other people are

taking, and try to discourage them by creating a sense of fear. If people's

discussion of their use of hormones makes you feel uncomfortable, you're

free to skip those posts. You don't have to take on the responsibility of

trying to look after other people who are well within their rights to make

the choices that they do. It tends to stifle productive discussion about the

issues, rather than contributing to the understanding of the issue.

lindaj@...

[Guest guest]

Hi,

I'm very tired and don't have much time right now, but please do not

take progesterone. Do a search at www.mercola.com/ to see why.

Luv, Bee

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Before I answer your question I want to ask if your last name is

Hepworth? I ask that because my paternal grandmother's name was

Hepworth, and the 7 babies that were born in Iowa are in the Hepworth

lineage (their mother is a Hepworth), and they are my cousins (5th or

7th - I can't recall exactly).

wrote:

> Hi Bee! I have a question about hormones i.e. estrogen dominance

> which I hope you maybe able to help with. Every month I have heavy

> clotted periods with cramping, along with PMT. Also I have another

> bleed 7 days after my main period - with even worse PMT. I have

>read that the liver is responsible for clearing the estrogen.

>However if I start to treat the candida will that then make all the

>hormone problems worse because I will be stressing my liver even

>more. Would you recommend I continue to treat my liver (with

>Livertone Plus, herbs etc) until the estrogen dominance improves or

>treat the candida? I just cannot bare the hormonal problems to get

>any worse than they already are. Any thoughts??? Many Thanks

The situation is like the " chicken and egg " theory - which came

first? I believe the candida is causing your liver and hormone

problems and they will both normalize if you treat the candida.

While treating the candida you should also support your liver by

continuing to take Livertone Plus. You could further help your liver

with coffee enemas (in the files) and lemon juice in warm water 3-4

times a day (the juice of one lemon in 8 ozs. of warm clean water).

For bleeding problems ensure you are getting enough Vitamin C which

includes bioflavonoids in it (1,000 mgs. per day) - a high quality

Vit. C will also have Rosehips, Hesperidin and Rutin, and in addition

you can take extra bioflavonoids (500 mgs. per day) separately to

help with bleeding problems. Garlic is also good because it is an

anticoagulant. It helps minimize blood clotting (bioflavonoids help

that too).

Bee

[Guest guest]

Well, ask anyone who's gone through a rough menopause. ;-)

In fact when I first crashed and burned that was one thing they checked for

me: To see if I was in Peri-menopause. Which I wasn't.

Anyone that has PMS to any extent can verify the hormone connection as well.

Barbara

Hormones

>

>

> How large a part do hormones play in depression?

> In the past I have not had the best diet.

> Now I have started eating in a way that my insulin and hormones are

> more balanced. I take 15 mg Lex and 5 mg Tolvon. A few weeks ago I

> tried to cut the Tolvon but that did not go well. Now after just a

> week on this new " diet " I cut the Tolvon and it went well !

> Do hormones play a large role in depression?

> (Could also just be the sun shinning ofcourse ;o) !)

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

As far as I'm aware the timed therapies balances the whole bodys

hormones similar to endocrine balancing but not quite the same and the

other are the sex hormones. For example if a female is not menstrating

when they should the female problems hormone balancing can assist them

starting again, where the other is a more general hormone balance, it

is one I use for older women going through menopause. But this is only

affective as the bodys ability to excrete toxins. If there are lots of

fillings and vaccinations are numerous in the past then these need to

be dealt with also. Something else to is the chakras influence the

endocrine system so by balancing them can be really helpful.

> Does any body know if there is a differance between the Start Auto

> Hormaonal Treatment in Timed Therapies/Music/SuperLearning and the

> Nutrition/Homeopathic>Female Problems>Hormone Balancing?

[Guest guest]

There are at least 6 locations to work on hormones that I can think of.

1. Timed Therapies/Music/Superlearning - Timed Treatment - Auto Hormonal

2. TIMED THERAPIES/MUSIC/SUPERLEARNING (OR SPINAL) - NUTRITION - FEMALE

PROBLEMS

3. Timed Therapies/Music/Superlearning - Aging - Anti-Aging Rx (independent

hormones)

4. Spinal - Sport Programs - Stabilize or STIMULATE HORMONES (but you need

to know what you need here)

5. Spinal - Timed Therapies - Simulate Female Fertility

6. Risk chart - In list double click goes above - therapy under treat areas

above

7. Test matrix - hormone in Search box

8. Test matrix - hormone (subcategory)

9. Test matrix - Treatments (also under Retest)Superconscious Choices of

QXCI Therapies or Cause/Cure/Palatation

10. Timed Therapies/Music/Superlearning (or Spinal) under Nutrition bottom

of page INCREASE or Stabilize Hormone Therapy

All work on the hormone imbalances the ONES IN CAPITALS TEND TO BE THE

STRONGEST the others are a gentler form of therapy. Lots of options working

slightly different. Easiest way to explain is they are like different doors

or windows into a house they all get there but in different ways. Sometimes

one works better than another, depending on the client and you may have to

do more than one way to complete the task.

Yours in Health,

Kathy

Hormones

Does any body know if there is a differance between the Start Auto

Hormaonal Treatment in Timed Therapies/Music/SuperLearning and the

Nutrition/Homeopathic>Female Problems>Hormone Balancing?

.............................................

[Guest guest]

Hi Leanne

I had hyperthyroid and had radiation treatment. It took a couple of YEARS for

my replacement thyroid hormone to stabilize. Some people are very sensitive to

minute changes in the dosage. And during that time, my marriage was pretty

shaky too. The part that I laugh about now is that my daughter (age 20 at the

time) kept offering me a safe place to go and stay...Since we had had such a

strained relationship through her teen years it certainly was a surprise. Each

time, she was there for me. And my husband forgave me (I think). Eventually.

One of the things that I did which helped both myself and my marriage was ask my

husband to get involved and help me with the doctor. Once he came to a few of

appointments he became much more understanding.

On top of thyroid hormone problems, we often seem to have difficulty with other

hormones. You might want to discuss this with your doctor.

In reality my thyroid hormone levels needed to be unchanged for about six months

before I stabilized emotionally. It is really hard on you when they are

constantly being changed. My doctor was changing them almost every month. I

just decided to pick one level and stay with it for a while and slowly I started

to feel a bit better. I still find there are frustrations. I have suggested

(repeatedly) to my husband that I do best when I have only one thing to do each

day -not like he lives on the go all the time. It is hard to fight for that but

if I do the shopping, I don't do housework or go out visiting on the same day

unless I'm feeling exceptionally strong. Or I can handle the housework and one

small other thing...I find I have to restate the idea every so often but if I

push myself too hard I get too tired and my hormones get crazy.

Also you might do a bit better if you take a good multiple vitamin. Have you

had your iron checked? Are you depressed? I had to get on a good

anti-depressant before I could feel better. Thyroid disease and depression

often go together.

Do take extra calcium. After being hyper, we often end up with osteoporosis.

Somehow the disease strips the calcium from our bones if it goes on long.

Another thing that might help is if you keep a little notebook and list the

date, your thyroid hormone dosages, and how you feel. It is good if you need

to ask the doctor for help .

These are just a few thoughts off the top of my head.

Kate

hormones

Hey everybody. Hope all are well. I was wondering if anyone out there

whos had hyperthyroid and had radiation treatment and is on synthroid

had problems with no hormones...This is serious...what can I say its

starting to destroy my marriage of seven months...I know I know the

first year of marriage is always the hardest but things are just

horrible right now...I dont know if I can take much more stress. Also

has anyone had problems with getting their thyroid straightened out?

Its been almost two years and its still not level. I take my meds but

it continues to fluxuate regularly? If anyone could help I would be

greatful.

Thanks Leanne

[Guest guest]

Copper and Zinc are associated with estrogen and progesterone.

What are your symptoms?

Kathy

linnsmama <mtnmusicmama@...> wrote:

>

> What is your imbalance, again? Have you tried the copper or zinc

thing?

Grrr. I'm not sure I even have an imbalance, now. I had some blood

tests done in response to some female complaints. My doctor (who I

like quite a bit) said I was estrogen dominant. Now, I know that

interpreting hormone levels is difficult at best, since every person

is different and women vary a lot within their monthly cycle, but

when I was looking over the results the other day, I just couldn't

see estrogen dominance there. So I sent the results off to an MD

friend and she said everything looked normal to her.

I haven't done anything with copper or zinc. I added acidophilus and

magnesium suppliments to my diet and stopped eating all soy. So far

with these changes plus a bio-identical progesterone prescription,

things have got worse, not better. What should I know about copper

and zinc?

-Robin

[Guest guest]

Might find that balancing the body ph will take the load off the adrenals

and pancreas enough to let the rest of you restore yourself. I would not

get crazy about adding a bunch of stuff. Concentrate on one thing and fix

that and then lets look at the rest. If everything was functioning before,

unless you have terribly damaged it, it will function again.

Bruce Guilmette, PhD

Survive Cancer Foundation, Inc.

<http://survivecancerfoundation.org> http://survivecancerfoundation.org

Do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day

has enough trouble of its own. Matt 6:34 (NIV)

_____

From: nutrition

[mailto:nutrition ] On Behalf Of Dirk Coetsee

Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 5:24 PM

nutrition

Subject: Hormones

What about the importance of hormones in all this? One of my problems is

that my hormones are out of whack from a significant period of starvation.

Cortisol, DHEA, progesterone, SHBG and (consequently) free testosterone. Do

you think getting hormones in order is good for the cancer patient?

I often consider adding 7-keto DHEA to my regime (if only I had more

money!!), and possible some body-building supplements like 6-oxo or ATD to

get testosterone up. Sucks being poor. 7-keto, IMO, will surely be

beneficial for the cancer victim. A nice, transdermal version is available

on www.bulknutrition.com

[Guest guest]

Hey Jack - If I understand you right - what I think he was trying to say was

that head surgery can cause your HPT axis to be off which means your

hypothalumus may not be signaling your pituitary to send out enough LH

(Leutinizing Hormone) which signals your testicles to produce more testosterone.

You would need to know your FSH, LH to see if they are at a reasonble range. If

they are low, then your testicles are not getting enough of a signal to produce

enough T. If they are high, then your testicles may not be able to produce what

is needed.

Hope this makes sense - they are all tied together to regulate your body and

if something keeps one of them (hypothalumus, pituitary or testes) from working

properly, the balance goes out the window.

Arkansas

jack <myhormonez@...> wrote:

hey guys I read that if your testosterone is up high(in my case IS

NOT)

then you run in to going on some other hormone is this true?? My mind

fails big time but I am trying to put everything together and the

latest I heard to my case was becouse you had surgery on your head may

be the signals are not working properely (this one came from a doc on

some other site ) I don't know if I should belive that you know even if

it is could I check all hormones get a baseline and go from there.

please some fedback Jack,

---------------------------------

Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs.Try it free.

[Guest guest]

Yep I agree on this but he needs to have a full pituitary panel of tests to see

if other messages are not getting sent like Thyroid, Coristol, Aldosterone with

Renin and others I don't even know about. The Dr. he needs to see on this is a

Pituitary Specialist maybe though the Dr. that did the sugary.

Phil

Dan Meatheany <dmeatheany@...> wrote:

Hey Jack - If I understand you right - what I think he was trying to say was

that head surgery can cause your HPT axis to be off which means your

hypothalumus may not be signaling your pituitary to send out enough LH

(Leutinizing Hormone) which signals your testicles to produce more testosterone.

You would need to know your FSH, LH to see if they are at a reasonble range. If

they are low, then your testicles are not getting enough of a signal to produce

enough T. If they are high, then your testicles may not be able to produce what

is needed.

Hope this makes sense - they are all tied together to regulate your body and if

something keeps one of them (hypothalumus, pituitary or testes) from working

properly, the balance goes out the window.

Arkansas

jack wrote:

hey guys I read that if your testosterone is up high(in my case IS NOT)

then you run in to going on some other hormone is this true?? My mind

fails big time but I am trying to put everything together and the

latest I heard to my case was becouse you had surgery on your head may

be the signals are not working properely (this one came from a doc on

some other site ) I don't know if I should belive that you know even if

it is could I check all hormones get a baseline and go from there.

please some fedback Jack,

---------------------------------

Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs.Try it free.

[Guest guest]

Thanks Arkansas and phil. Well then my Lh and Fsh have been low for so

long after TRT but since they took me off TRT they went up high to the

5-6 scale level so what does it mean now I know I am going to check

FSH and LH again now. but what is next.............. Jack.

> hey guys I read that if your testosterone is up high(in my

case IS NOT)

> then you run in to going on some other hormone is this true?? My mind

> fails big time but I am trying to put everything together and the

> latest I heard to my case was becouse you had surgery on your head may

> be the signals are not working properely (this one came from a doc on

> some other site ) I don't know if I should belive that you know even if

> it is could I check all hormones get a baseline and go from there.

> please some fedback Jack,

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs.Try it free.

>

>

[Guest guest]

If they are still elevated and your T is not correct you will probably be

primary which means the testicles are not capable of producing enough T. How are

you currently feeling and responding? Don't get too hung up on numbers - it is

about how we feel and respond primarily. My problems started about age 40 and

continued to worsten until I got treatment at 45. Everybodys situation is

somewhat unique.

I had an appointment with my Dr. today to go over my latest results and get a

prostate exam( you got to love those). I quizzed him about how many other

patients he had in my situation. We live in an area of ~ 30000 people. He has a

total of 6 men on TRT. 3 more elderly that only get a shot every 2-4 weeks and 2

other younger men that do gels. I am the only one doing the regiment I chose and

he commented that most don't take that big of an interest and do all the

research I have. We have a good relationship and he is comfortable that I am

educated in the area enough to make suggestions. Sorry for the long post - my

point is it is really up to us as individuals to figure out what is the best

coarse of action to take and present this to your doctor with evidence you know

what you are talking about. Testing is the first stage, then research is the

second. It is then trial and error till you get it right. But when you get it

right it is worth all the trouble. Let us know what

your results are.

Good Luck - Arkansas

jack <myhormonez@...> wrote:

Thanks Arkansas and phil. Well then my Lh and Fsh have been low for so

long after TRT but since they took me off TRT they went up high to the

5-6 scale level so what does it mean now I know I am going to check

FSH and LH again now. but what is next.............. Jack.

> hey guys I read that if your testosterone is up high(in my

case IS NOT)

> then you run in to going on some other hormone is this true?? My mind

> fails big time but I am trying to put everything together and the

> latest I heard to my case was becouse you had surgery on your head may

> be the signals are not working properely (this one came from a doc on

> some other site ) I don't know if I should belive that you know even if

> it is could I check all hormones get a baseline and go from there.

> please some fedback Jack,

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs.Try it free.

>

>

[Guest guest]

First do the tests then post them and then we can see.

Get these and any thing anyone can come up with.

• Total Testosterone

• Bioavailable Testosterone (AKA " Free and Loosely Bound " )

• Free Testosterone (if Bioavailable T is unavailable)

• DHT

• Estradiol (specify the Extraction Method, or " sensitive " assay for

males)

• LH

• FSH

• Prolactin

• Cortisol

• Thyroid Panel

• CBC

• Comprehensive Metabolic Panel

• Lipid Profile

• PSA (if over 40)

• IGF-1 (if HGH therapy is being considered)

Phil

jack <myhormonez@...> wrote:

Thanks Arkansas and phil. Well then my Lh and Fsh have been low for so

long after TRT but since they took me off TRT they went up high to the

5-6 scale level so what does it mean now I know I am going to check

FSH and LH again now. but what is next.............. Jack.

> hey guys I read that if your testosterone is up high(in my

case IS NOT)

> then you run in to going on some other hormone is this true?? My mind

> fails big time but I am trying to put everything together and the

> latest I heard to my case was becouse you had surgery on your head may

> be the signals are not working properely (this one came from a doc on

> some other site ) I don't know if I should belive that you know even if

> it is could I check all hormones get a baseline and go from there.

> please some fedback Jack,

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs.Try it free.

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/29/2006 2:51:08 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,

fluteteacher@... writes:

I used progesterone cream and gained 10 lbs. I do not believe that it

was a coincidence especially since the gain happened so quickly.I

haven't gained a lb since I quit using it. I have lost 10 lbs since

Thanksgiving. I began using coconut oil regularly at that time. I

will never use progesterone cream again.

...I am with you on that...I gained weight as well and because I started

the coconut oil and prog cream at the same time...I blamed both....but have

since stopped both...and will add back the coconut oil....but not the prog

cream...it makes me gain weight and feel awful....Beth in Idaho

[Guest guest]

I used progesterone cream and gained 10 lbs. I do not believe that it

was a coincidence especially since the gain happened so quickly.I

haven't gained a lb since I quit using it. I have lost 10 lbs since

Thanksgiving. I began using coconut oil regularly at that time. I

will never use progesterone cream again.

>

> ok i am now on the macafem and the somalife ghp to help with my

hormone balance. do i still need

> the prog cream? or is this hormones overload? i made an

appointment to see the chinese medicine

> person in late Jan. i feel like i am taking so many pills. my hot

flashes are gone but my mood

> swings,weight gain and energy are still shot. i have also been

having headaches. I have been on

> the macafem for a month and the somalife ghp for 3 days. it sure

cleans you out though!!! what

> about thyroid throu? it is like $390.00 for one treatment (6 weeks

worth) i would consider it if

> it helped!!

>

> __________________________________________________

>