Re: Low Cholesterol Myth and cancer

[Guest guest]

Interesting but until of late I did not know there were people claiming a

connection between cholesterol levels and cancer.

Additionally averages can be misleading and the types of fat consumed might be

more important than the amounts. I say might because few of us know and

quoting a 'study' is fine but cannot be the end of the topic. I note the

'China Study' was mentioned and I have never read it and probably will not.

I do know the subject has come up more than a few times and was deemed not

worthy for the list because of the controversy surrounding it. The China

Study has its followers and detractors and since it has been suggested we leave

it alone I suspect that if it heats up we will be hearing from the moderators

again. It is the kind of thing that cannot be proven to the satisfaction of

the many and leads to arguments.

Whether or not it is a myth that too low, and I wonder what too low is, a

cholesterol level in the elderly is indicative of mental decline doesn't

interest me as much as the effort at reducing cholesterol does. There is a

difference in the 'Average' cholesterol level because of diet than a very low

level caused by statin drugs. There are studies that claim that more people

suffer death-causing heart attacks because of statin drugs even though studies

reveal less heart attacks for people taking statins. Then again for ever

study revealing one set of statistics, there's probably another showing another

aspect with different outcomes. We usually offer studies to support our

beliefs and ignore those contrary to our beliefs. It is late on the East Coast

so good night all.

Joe C.

[Guest guest]

A few years ago will be three years this summer my Regular Md handed me some

statin drug samples as my cholesterol was over 300. Said its time to get these

numbers down, it ran in the family. Mom and Dad both had high numbers as well.

That was just one of my many health issues at the time besides having chordial

Melanoma left eye. MY idea of the SAD diet ( standard american diet) was a huge

steak, potatos smothered with butter, and perhaps a small side dish of vegs. At

that time my blood pressure was 160 over 100, I also was obsese. In addition I

guess you might say I was a border line acholic, as my Dad also was one. Its

always hard to admit you have health issues, ever harder to actually do

something about it.

To make a long story short, I threw the statin drugs in the trash and changed

Drs. Well anyway added one, A MD who was more into alternative treatments as he

has beated Cancer stage four twice. Of course we all know your never out of the

woods with cancer. He recommended a new diet, Vegan did a heavy metal detox,

plus a spectracell test, food alergy test, to see where my real health issues

were. In otherwards besides all animal protein, I had to give up my booze, wheat

glutin, all refinded foods, sugar, and many other foods I was allergic to. In

otherwards no more Pizza and beer!!!

It was a tough choice, could I just cut off my right arm instead?

But I agreed to get it six months, what did I have to lose? Heres the just of

it. I lost 60lbs, lowered my blood levels below 150, lowered my blood pressure

to 100 over 60 without the aid of a single pill.

Not to mention all the other wonderful things, I had forgotten what it felt

like to actually feel Good. I have always exercized this past ten years

faithfully but always strugled with weight.

In otherwards it made a believer out of me. The naysayers can no longer say We

are what we eat as I am a living example. Even my regular Md who gave me the

pills had to concede, keep doing what your doing with the weird alternative

stuff. How is eating healthy considered alternative in this day and age? Sad

indeed that in todays world its considered normal to take a pill, but

alternative in eating organic fruits and vegs. I guess I have become of of those

weird Tree hugger guys I used to make fun of, not that I havent always loved the

outdoors. A very good documentary on EATING if you havent watched it is by Mike

. My wife works in a Cardiac Rehab unit where she showed that movie last

week, most still believe that heart diesease is not reversable. Thats true there

is no magic pill that will reverse heart disease while still eating your ice

cream. But its a proven fact if you don't eat animal products you can't have

high cholesterol. Anyway its made a BELIEVER out of me.

All the best,

Mike

[Guest guest]

Hey Joe, don't shoot the messenger ! I am not here to kill the Holy Cow.! Love

cows : a poem to compassion (Gandhi)

I never had to enter in a debate with somebody who actually had read the book

simply because the research is clear and doesn't leave room for personal

interpretation. I just present raw facts and what people decide to do with the

new information is beyond my personal control and part of their own Karma.

You wrote : " I say might because few of us know and quoting a 'study' is fine

but cannot be the end of the topic. I note the 'China Study' was mentioned and I

have never read it and probably will not. "

Joe, I didn't present a " study " but at least two studies. One by Colin

who was able to turn on and off cancer cell proliferation in vitro and in vivo

AT WILL and this experience was never denied by any of his detractor and can be

repeated anytime any where. To do so, he just used only one product : animal

protein from casein.

[Moderator's inserted comment: Dr found that when the casein fed to

rats was under 5% of total diet calories, cancer stopped. When the amount of

casein was 20% of total calories, cancer grew. It's the AMOUNT of casein that

made the difference. See page 56 of his book.]

Dr. Dean Ornish, who 30 years ago started to reverse coronary Heart disease with

nutrition was not doing it with meat and cheese but with a low-fat, plant-based

diet. Now, a few years ago with about the same diet, he was able to reverse

prostate cancer on most of his patients.

[Moderator's comment: Dr Ornish recommends fruits, vegetables, grains

and legumes in his plant-centered diet and also includes fat-free buttermilk,

skim milk, cottage cheese, yogurt, egg whites and soy products in his " Most

Healthful Choices " list in his book entitled 'The Spectrum.']

Now animal protein are more powerful in activating cancer cell proliferation

than aflatoxine even in mice genetically programed to have liver cancer even in

people with declared cancer prostate.. Is it worth it to mention this in a group

of cancer survivors ?

Joe, I've seen the Cancer Map of the China Study and it is true that one image

is worth a 1000 words. The Cancer Map follow the CDH Map and again : I need to

mention, the ratio for cancer is 1 to 10 000. This is the difference between the

Chinese on a low-fat/low-protein diet and the ones who eat our wonderful western

diet.

You wrote : I do know the subject has come up more than a few times and was

deemed not worthy for the list because of the controversy surrounding it.

Joe, this is the same controversy that you will find each time you could hurt

the powerful interests of the food Industry.

Do we have a debate on growth hormone ? Yes. On the use of antibiotic in animal

farming ? yes. Do we have a debate on meat or milk being good for our health?

Yes again.. Contamination and destruction of our rivers and soils by animal

farming ? Yes again.

Lobbyists first will try to silence detractors with derision and personal

attack... then will install a debate. Debate are better than derision because

like the one on mercury and dental amalgams who started in Napoleonic times

they can last for ever.

Colin was the hero, as a farmer and a scientist of the animal protein

promotion in the 50s. (he still has his farm up north but after the China Study

is not a meat eater anymore). So was the " Mad Cowboy " a cattleman. So was the

famous Dr Spoke, the knight of milk consumption, so was Robbins the Heir of

Baskin and Robbins.

Things are changing, knowledge is changing..Habits are changing.. The

China Study changed my life and I read it every year at least once. I made my "

beef " out of meat for 28 years as a chef/owner of several restaurants - from

fine dining to junk food and from Italian to Cuban. By the age of 33 I had

already extra bacon on my tight chest pain and problem with certain delicate

plumbing of my anatomy so I changed my habits but not enough to ever feel

perfectly good. My wife's breast cancer was our real wake up call and we started

to investigate the heart of the problem : Nutrition. We are far from our goal

to be like our friend Ruth Heidrich, a 74 years old triathlon athlete ( still

training everyday in Hawaii)condemned by orthodox medicine 30 years ago . You

know why she was condemned ? Cancer last stage with metastasis all over..

We are far from our goals, yes, but we are only in our mid 50 s. Personally, I

never had to watch again one day my calories intake, I bet sometimes I am up to

4.000 (like yesterday)I went to swim laps one hour and skating another hour so I

was late for diner time..starving. I used to look at Dean Ornish, McDougall,

Null, Colin , Ruth Heidrich as health nuts. i use to think that

they were running marathon for hedonistic purposes. Far from reality. Now I am

one of these and I can tell you that I have to exercise everyday one to two

hours because I have too much energy and I get this energy from fruits, nuts and

vegetables.

I will not debate on the China Study. you have the raw, organic, unprocessed

facts.

Blessings to all of you even if you still like eating ageless corpse parts :-) I

mean meat as I look at it now.. :-).

[Guest guest]

I agree with your comments, Joe.  However, as the wife of someone with

cholesterol and heart disease running in the family, and his father dead at 57

of a massive, unforseen heart attack, we have been watching my husband's

cholesterol levels as well.  His LDL was at 130 and of course the doctor wanted

him on statins, which he tried, but the side effects were too much and he was

miserable, so he refused to take them.  Then I read this article:

http://www.naturalnews.com/024001.html

The article states that the " American Heart Association recommends an LDL level

of 100 for prevention and 70 for high risk patients. In the new study an LDL

level of 107 was associated with a 33% increased risk of cancer and death, an

LDL level of 87 was associated with a 50% increased risk. As the LDL goes lower

the risk keeps getting worse. "   Gee, my LDL is 63 and guess what?  According

the the AHA I am " perfect, " but I have cancer!!!

The article goes on to say, " We have known for many years that individuals who

maintain an LDL cholesterol level of 130 as they enter their 40s and 50s have

much less heart disease as they grow older. This is because they are healthy and

have maintained fitness in their cholesterol function and metabolism. My

husband, the supposed one at risk, was at LDL = 130 the last time his blood was

drawn, about a year and a half ago. Since that time he has followed mostly a

vegetarian diet with me and increased his exercise program, so I suspect his LDL

has gone down a bit.

The article then goes on to say, " In the current study the ideal LDL cholesterol

level was 126. The researchers were able to identify a bell shaped curve, in

terms of a departure in either direction from this ideal number. LDL over 146 or

less than 107 was associated with 33% increased risk of cancer. LDL over 164 of

less than 87 was associated with a 50% increased risk. The risk keeps getting

worse the higher or lower the number progresses away from the ideal of 126. LDL

in the range of 108...145 had no statistically significant cancer risk, although

being in the center of this range is clearly best. "

My diet has also radically changed over the past year and a half to one of

vegetables and fruit, no processed foods, very little to no meat, so I suspect

my cholesterol is even lower as well.  Great. My diet hopefully helps to fight

cancer, while my low cholesterol puts me in a higher 50% risk for cancer...

Debbie

[Guest guest]

Ditto!

My thoughts exactly! Well said. It seems its always a heated topic animal

protein as its the staple of todays Western diet.Mike commited that the

average person will eat 3000 animals in his lifetime. I must of consumed 2000 or

so in my first 52 years ( I dont blame animal protein for the Melanoma I have.)

Non the less its a proven fact animal protein is responsible for most the

preventable deaths in America. Heart disease, Many Cancers. I read somewhere

recently that 42% of our food consumption is based on animal protein in the USA.

I never brought up the china study because I know its been beaten to death here

in this room. I find it interesting many who dismiss it never read the book. I

have read over 60 books on cancer and varias health issues these pass three

years. Does it make me a expert? of course not it just confirmed for me My

personal Journey to health being a Vegan is a wise choice. Whatever path a

person chooses, may it be a healthy long and loving life.

Mike