Re: Another piece of the puzzle with soy and andogens

[Guest guest]

There is a lot of studies going on and some done about high levels of Estradiol

being the cause of some prostate cancers. And yes like I said soy has a marker

of E's that don't do anything but take up space in the cells. So with women

that have to much Estrogen taking soy isoflavones will lower the Estrogen

levels. In men it lower there estradiol and testosterone levels because the soy

marker is filling the cells and the brain sees this as Testosterone and stops

sending the LH message to the testis to make T. E2 is made from T so both go

down and if it's true that some prostate cancers are due to E2 the study would

show this helped. But long term this is not good the poor man ends up low on

both.

In this study all they needed to do was to lower the guys E2 levels with DIM

or Arimidex.

Soy makes no sense to me with all that I have seen happen to men posting on

the forums with low T.

All I am trying to do it get the word out there I don't mean to come across

like it's the law it's just the way I wright and I this is not the best thing I

am good at. Most times I am at this 12 hrs a day and don't even having the time

to double check what I have typed. So some times I read back what I posted and

can't believe what I did with typo's and spelling.

Most people that know me know this and over look it. I am not hear to win a

contest on writing I am just trying to get the word out.

Most of the people that come down on my posts about soy are Vegetarians.

Lately I have been feeling burned out doing this and try to take a day off

when I do come back on I read a story that dam near breaks my heart. I suffered

for over 23 yrs with seeing Dr.'s that missed what was wrong with me and it cost

my most of my life. So here I am everyday putting the word out there the best I

can so men don't suffer like I did.

betaine_hcl <no_reply > wrote:

The full article will come available

without charge in a August.

1: J Nutr. 2007 Jul;137(7):1769-75.

Isoflavone-rich soy protein isolate suppresses androgen

receptor expression without altering estrogen

receptor-beta expression or serum hormonal profiles in

men at high risk of prostate cancer.

Hamilton-Reeves JM, Rebello SA, W,

Slaton JW, Kurzer MS.

Department of Food Science and Nutrition,

University of Minnesota, Minneapolis,

MN 55455, USA.

The purpose of this study was to determine the effects of

soy protein isolate consumption on circulating hormone

profiles and hormone receptor expression patterns

in men at high risk for developing advanced prostate cancer.

Fifty-eight men were randomly assigned to consume

1 of 3 protein isolates containing 40 g/d

protein: 1) soy protein isolate (SPI+)

(107 mg/d isoflavones); 2) alcohol-washed

soy protein isolate (SPI-) (<6 mg/d isoflavones);

or 3) milk protein isolate (0 mg/d isoflavones).

For 6 mo, the men consumed the protein isolates in divided

doses twice daily as a partial meal replacement.

Serum samples collected at 0, 3, and 6 mo were

analyzed for circulating estradiol, estrone,

sex hormone-binding globulin, androstenedione,

androstanediol glucuronide, dehydroepiandrosterone

sulfate, dihydrotestosterone, testosterone, and

free testosterone concentrations by RIA.

Prostate biopsy samples obtained pre- and

postintervention were analyzed for androgen receptor (AR)

and estrogen receptor-beta expression by immunohistochemistry.

At 6 mo, consumption of SPI+ significantly suppressed AR

expression but did not alter estrogen

receptor-beta expression or circulating hormones.

Consumption of SPI- significantly increased estradiol and

androstenedione concentrations, and tended to

suppress AR expression (P = 0.09). Although the effects

of SPI- consumption on estradiol and androstenedione are

difficult to interpret and the clinical relevance is

uncertain, these data show that AR expression in

the prostate is suppressed by soy protein isolate

consumption, which may be beneficial in preventing

prostate cancer.

PMID: 17585029 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[Guest guest]

Phil, like I just wrote in another message, and dozens of messages in

the past, I think the world of your participation and efforts here.

Please don't take this debate as a personal attack

On Apr 10, 2008, at 6:23 AM, philip georgian wrote:

> There is a lot of studies going on and some done about high levels

> of Estradiol being the cause of some prostate cancers. And yes like

> I said soy has a marker of E's that don't do anything but take up

> space in the cells. So with women that have to much Estrogen taking

> soy isoflavones will lower the Estrogen levels. In men it lower

> there estradiol and testosterone levels because the soy marker is

> filling the cells and the brain sees this as Testosterone and stops

> sending the LH message to the testis to make T. E2 is made from T

> so both go down and if it's true that some prostate cancers are due

> to E2 the study would show this helped. But long term this is not

> good the poor man ends up low on both.

>

> In this study all they needed to do was to lower the guys E2 levels

> with DIM or Arimidex.

>

> Soy makes no sense to me with all that I have seen happen to men

> posting on the forums with low T.

>

> All I am trying to do it get the word out there I don't mean to

> come across like it's the law it's just the way I wright and I this

> is not the best thing I am good at. Most times I am at this 12 hrs

> a day and don't even having the time to double check what I have

> typed. So some times I read back what I posted and can't believe

> what I did with typo's and spelling.

>

> Most people that know me know this and over look it. I am not hear

> to win a contest on writing I am just trying to get the word out.

>

> Most of the people that come down on my posts about soy are

> Vegetarians.

>

> Lately I have been feeling burned out doing this and try to take a

> day off when I do come back on I read a story that dam near breaks

> my heart. I suffered for over 23 yrs with seeing Dr.'s that missed

> what was wrong with me and it cost my most of my life. So here I am

> everyday putting the word out there the best I can so men don't

> suffer like I did.

>

>

>

> betaine_hcl <no_reply > wrote:

> The full article will come available

> without charge in a August.

>

> 1: J Nutr. 2007 Jul;137(7):1769-75.

>

> Isoflavone-rich soy protein isolate suppresses androgen

> receptor expression without altering estrogen

> receptor-beta expression or serum hormonal profiles in

> men at high risk of prostate cancer.

>

> Hamilton-Reeves JM, Rebello SA, W,

> Slaton JW, Kurzer MS.

>

> Department of Food Science and Nutrition,

> University of Minnesota, Minneapolis,

> MN 55455, USA.

>

> The purpose of this study was to determine the effects of

> soy protein isolate consumption on circulating hormone

> profiles and hormone receptor expression patterns

> in men at high risk for developing advanced prostate cancer.

> Fifty-eight men were randomly assigned to consume

> 1 of 3 protein isolates containing 40 g/d

> protein: 1) soy protein isolate (SPI+)

> (107 mg/d isoflavones); 2) alcohol-washed

> soy protein isolate (SPI-) (<6 mg/d isoflavones);

> or 3) milk protein isolate (0 mg/d isoflavones).

> For 6 mo, the men consumed the protein isolates in divided

> doses twice daily as a partial meal replacement.

> Serum samples collected at 0, 3, and 6 mo were

> analyzed for circulating estradiol, estrone,

> sex hormone-binding globulin, androstenedione,

> androstanediol glucuronide, dehydroepiandrosterone

> sulfate, dihydrotestosterone, testosterone, and

> free testosterone concentrations by RIA.

> Prostate biopsy samples obtained pre- and

> postintervention were analyzed for androgen receptor (AR)

> and estrogen receptor-beta expression by immunohistochemistry.

> At 6 mo, consumption of SPI+ significantly suppressed AR

> expression but did not alter estrogen

> receptor-beta expression or circulating hormones.

> Consumption of SPI- significantly increased estradiol and

> androstenedione concentrations, and tended to

> suppress AR expression (P = 0.09). Although the effects

> of SPI- consumption on estradiol and androstenedione are

> difficult to interpret and the clinical relevance is

> uncertain, these data show that AR expression in

> the prostate is suppressed by soy protein isolate

> consumption, which may be beneficial in preventing

> prostate cancer.

>

> PMID: 17585029 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dave how long have you known me I don't get upset easy I just felt the need to

let people know there are times when I post that I have a hard time saying what

I mean. I have never been good putting words to paper yet I was a very

successful Engineer. More or less a Jack of All Traides. On the job my

Secretary would take my dicktayshion and make it look good God Bless her.

Dave <groupsdude@...> wrote: Phil, like I just wrote in another

message, and dozens of messages in

the past, I think the world of your participation and efforts here.

Please don't take this debate as a personal attack

On Apr 10, 2008, at 6:23 AM, philip georgian wrote:

> There is a lot of studies going on and some done about high levels

> of Estradiol being the cause of some prostate cancers. And yes like

> I said soy has a marker of E's that don't do anything but take up

> space in the cells. So with women that have to much Estrogen taking

> soy isoflavones will lower the Estrogen levels. In men it lower

> there estradiol and testosterone levels because the soy marker is

> filling the cells and the brain sees this as Testosterone and stops

> sending the LH message to the testis to make T. E2 is made from T

> so both go down and if it's true that some prostate cancers are due

> to E2 the study would show this helped. But long term this is not

> good the poor man ends up low on both.

>

> In this study all they needed to do was to lower the guys E2 levels

> with DIM or Arimidex.

>

> Soy makes no sense to me with all that I have seen happen to men

> posting on the forums with low T.

>

> All I am trying to do it get the word out there I don't mean to

> come across like it's the law it's just the way I wright and I this

> is not the best thing I am good at. Most times I am at this 12 hrs

> a day and don't even having the time to double check what I have

> typed. So some times I read back what I posted and can't believe

> what I did with typo's and spelling.

>

> Most people that know me know this and over look it. I am not hear

> to win a contest on writing I am just trying to get the word out.

>

> Most of the people that come down on my posts about soy are

> Vegetarians.

>

> Lately I have been feeling burned out doing this and try to take a

> day off when I do come back on I read a story that dam near breaks

> my heart. I suffered for over 23 yrs with seeing Dr.'s that missed

> what was wrong with me and it cost my most of my life. So here I am

> everyday putting the word out there the best I can so men don't

> suffer like I did.

>

>

>

> betaine_hcl <no_reply > wrote:

> The full article will come available

> without charge in a August.

>

> 1: J Nutr. 2007 Jul;137(7):1769-75.

>

> Isoflavone-rich soy protein isolate suppresses androgen

> receptor expression without altering estrogen

> receptor-beta expression or serum hormonal profiles in

> men at high risk of prostate cancer.

>

> Hamilton-Reeves JM, Rebello SA, W,

> Slaton JW, Kurzer MS.

>

> Department of Food Science and Nutrition,

> University of Minnesota, Minneapolis,

> MN 55455, USA.

>

> The purpose of this study was to determine the effects of

> soy protein isolate consumption on circulating hormone

> profiles and hormone receptor expression patterns

> in men at high risk for developing advanced prostate cancer.

> Fifty-eight men were randomly assigned to consume

> 1 of 3 protein isolates containing 40 g/d

> protein: 1) soy protein isolate (SPI+)

> (107 mg/d isoflavones); 2) alcohol-washed

> soy protein isolate (SPI-) (<6 mg/d isoflavones);

> or 3) milk protein isolate (0 mg/d isoflavones).

> For 6 mo, the men consumed the protein isolates in divided

> doses twice daily as a partial meal replacement.

> Serum samples collected at 0, 3, and 6 mo were

> analyzed for circulating estradiol, estrone,

> sex hormone-binding globulin, androstenedione,

> androstanediol glucuronide, dehydroepiandrosterone

> sulfate, dihydrotestosterone, testosterone, and

> free testosterone concentrations by RIA.

> Prostate biopsy samples obtained pre- and

> postintervention were analyzed for androgen receptor (AR)

> and estrogen receptor-beta expression by immunohistochemistry.

> At 6 mo, consumption of SPI+ significantly suppressed AR

> expression but did not alter estrogen

> receptor-beta expression or circulating hormones.

> Consumption of SPI- significantly increased estradiol and

> androstenedione concentrations, and tended to

> suppress AR expression (P = 0.09). Although the effects

> of SPI- consumption on estradiol and androstenedione are

> difficult to interpret and the clinical relevance is

> uncertain, these data show that AR expression in

> the prostate is suppressed by soy protein isolate

> consumption, which may be beneficial in preventing

> prostate cancer.

>

> PMID: 17585029 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

>

>

[Guest guest]

Phil I couldn't agree with you more. There are too many guys trying to

diagnose themselves rather than going to their doctors who are supposed

to be better at this than the person trying to diagnose themselves. Why

go into all this crap when all you need to do is find a good doctor and let

him diagnose you. If you are low on testosterone then he will give you

a subscription to get some or will give you shots himself. If you do take

T then the thing to watch is your E2 levels which can be taken care of

by taking .25mg of Arimidex. Start slowly and work up to where your

E2 is running anywhere from 20 to maybe 30 depending on your body

needs. That is all that I do and I feel fine. I don't anything else except

Zinc and copper. I am 84 and doing well so leave all the diagnosis to

the experts or those who have studied medicine and stop going into all

this, " What studies you have read. " All the things in these studies are

not true anyway. Listen to your body like Phil has posted many times

and forget the rest you will be better off. Soy is not on my list either. Phil

you don't have to be on there all this time to let guys know what to take,

take a break. You are living on this too much for your own sake. My

sympathy goes out to you but am also concerned about you.The

only reason I take Zinc and copper is because Phil said it will help and

my eye doctor told me to take it as it will help me with a deteriorating

retna in one eye.

Every blessing to you,

Roy

philip georgian <pmgamer18@...> wrote:

There is a lot of studies going on and some done about high levels of

Estradiol being the cause of some prostate cancers. And yes like I said soy has

a marker of E's that don't do anything but take up space in the cells. So with

women that have to much Estrogen taking soy isoflavones will lower the Estrogen

levels. In men it lower there estradiol and testosterone levels because the soy

marker is filling the cells and the brain sees this as Testosterone and stops

sending the LH message to the testis to make T. E2 is made from T so both go

down and if it's true that some prostate cancers are due to E2 the study would

show this helped. But long term this is not good the poor man ends up low on

both.

In this study all they needed to do was to lower the guys E2 levels with DIM or

Arimidex.

Soy makes no sense to me with all that I have seen happen to men posting on the

forums with low T.

All I am trying to do it get the word out there I don't mean to come across like

it's the law it's just the way I wright and I this is not the best thing I am

good at. Most times I am at this 12 hrs a day and don't even having the time to

double check what I have typed. So some times I read back what I posted and

can't believe what I did with typo's and spelling.

Most people that know me know this and over look it. I am not hear to win a

contest on writing I am just trying to get the word out.

Most of the people that come down on my posts about soy are Vegetarians.

Lately I have been feeling burned out doing this and try to take a day off when

I do come back on I read a story that dam near breaks my heart. I suffered for

over 23 yrs with seeing Dr.'s that missed what was wrong with me and it cost my

most of my life. So here I am everyday putting the word out there the best I can

so men don't suffer like I did.

betaine_hcl <no_reply > wrote:

The full article will come available

without charge in a August.

1: J Nutr. 2007 Jul;137(7):1769-75.

Isoflavone-rich soy protein isolate suppresses androgen

receptor expression without altering estrogen

receptor-beta expression or serum hormonal profiles in

men at high risk of prostate cancer.

Hamilton-Reeves JM, Rebello SA, W,

Slaton JW, Kurzer MS.

Department of Food Science and Nutrition,

University of Minnesota, Minneapolis,

MN 55455, USA.

The purpose of this study was to determine the effects of

soy protein isolate consumption on circulating hormone

profiles and hormone receptor expression patterns

in men at high risk for developing advanced prostate cancer.

Fifty-eight men were randomly assigned to consume

1 of 3 protein isolates containing 40 g/d

protein: 1) soy protein isolate (SPI+)

(107 mg/d isoflavones); 2) alcohol-washed

soy protein isolate (SPI-) (<6 mg/d isoflavones);

or 3) milk protein isolate (0 mg/d isoflavones).

For 6 mo, the men consumed the protein isolates in divided

doses twice daily as a partial meal replacement.

Serum samples collected at 0, 3, and 6 mo were

analyzed for circulating estradiol, estrone,

sex hormone-binding globulin, androstenedione,

androstanediol glucuronide, dehydroepiandrosterone

sulfate, dihydrotestosterone, testosterone, and

free testosterone concentrations by RIA.

Prostate biopsy samples obtained pre- and

postintervention were analyzed for androgen receptor (AR)

and estrogen receptor-beta expression by immunohistochemistry.

At 6 mo, consumption of SPI+ significantly suppressed AR

expression but did not alter estrogen

receptor-beta expression or circulating hormones.

Consumption of SPI- significantly increased estradiol and

androstenedione concentrations, and tended to

suppress AR expression (P = 0.09). Although the effects

of SPI- consumption on estradiol and androstenedione are

difficult to interpret and the clinical relevance is

uncertain, these data show that AR expression in

the prostate is suppressed by soy protein isolate

consumption, which may be beneficial in preventing

prostate cancer.

PMID: 17585029 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[Guest guest]

There are some days I over do this and it's my own doing I am starting to cut

back on my time on the web. I go and read new posts but let them sit to see

what the other guys say most of the guys are doing a good job of it. At meso I

don't even post much anymore the thyroid forum keeps me busy it's like you need

to hold there hand on what labs and the kind of Dr. they need some have been

seeing bad Dr.'s for way to long and they are a mess. I just can't see an Endo

putting someone on Synthroid and year after year they tell the Endo they don't

feel good and all they do is tell them it's in there head. Some people don't do

good on just Synthroid and the longer they are on it the worse there adrenals

get. And then they needed to test and treat them before treating there thyroid.

Roy <chickenbirdtree@...> wrote: Phil I couldn't agree

with you more. There are too many guys trying to

diagnose themselves rather than going to their doctors who are supposed

to be better at this than the person trying to diagnose themselves. Why

go into all this crap when all you need to do is find a good doctor and let

him diagnose you. If you are low on testosterone then he will give you

a subscription to get some or will give you shots himself. If you do take

T then the thing to watch is your E2 levels which can be taken care of

by taking .25mg of Arimidex. Start slowly and work up to where your

E2 is running anywhere from 20 to maybe 30 depending on your body

needs. That is all that I do and I feel fine. I don't anything else except

Zinc and copper. I am 84 and doing well so leave all the diagnosis to

the experts or those who have studied medicine and stop going into all

this, " What studies you have read. " All the things in these studies are

not true anyway. Listen to your body like Phil has posted many times

and forget the rest you will be better off. Soy is not on my list either. Phil

you don't have to be on there all this time to let guys know what to take,

take a break. You are living on this too much for your own sake. My

sympathy goes out to you but am also concerned about you.The

only reason I take Zinc and copper is because Phil said it will help and

my eye doctor told me to take it as it will help me with a deteriorating

retna in one eye.

Every blessing to you,

Roy

philip georgian <pmgamer18@...> wrote:

There is a lot of studies going on and some done about high levels of Estradiol

being the cause of some prostate cancers. And yes like I said soy has a marker

of E's that don't do anything but take up space in the cells. So with women that

have to much Estrogen taking soy isoflavones will lower the Estrogen levels. In

men it lower there estradiol and testosterone levels because the soy marker is

filling the cells and the brain sees this as Testosterone and stops sending the

LH message to the testis to make T. E2 is made from T so both go down and if

it's true that some prostate cancers are due to E2 the study would show this

helped. But long term this is not good the poor man ends up low on both.

In this study all they needed to do was to lower the guys E2 levels with DIM or

Arimidex.

Soy makes no sense to me with all that I have seen happen to men posting on the

forums with low T.

All I am trying to do it get the word out there I don't mean to come across like

it's the law it's just the way I wright and I this is not the best thing I am

good at. Most times I am at this 12 hrs a day and don't even having the time to

double check what I have typed. So some times I read back what I posted and

can't believe what I did with typo's and spelling.

Most people that know me know this and over look it. I am not hear to win a

contest on writing I am just trying to get the word out.

Most of the people that come down on my posts about soy are Vegetarians.

Lately I have been feeling burned out doing this and try to take a day off when

I do come back on I read a story that dam near breaks my heart. I suffered for

over 23 yrs with seeing Dr.'s that missed what was wrong with me and it cost my

most of my life. So here I am everyday putting the word out there the best I can

so men don't suffer like I did.

betaine_hcl <no_reply > wrote:

The full article will come available

without charge in a August.

1: J Nutr. 2007 Jul;137(7):1769-75.

Isoflavone-rich soy protein isolate suppresses androgen

receptor expression without altering estrogen

receptor-beta expression or serum hormonal profiles in

men at high risk of prostate cancer.

Hamilton-Reeves JM, Rebello SA, W,

Slaton JW, Kurzer MS.

Department of Food Science and Nutrition,

University of Minnesota, Minneapolis,

MN 55455, USA.

The purpose of this study was to determine the effects of

soy protein isolate consumption on circulating hormone

profiles and hormone receptor expression patterns

in men at high risk for developing advanced prostate cancer.

Fifty-eight men were randomly assigned to consume

1 of 3 protein isolates containing 40 g/d

protein: 1) soy protein isolate (SPI+)

(107 mg/d isoflavones); 2) alcohol-washed

soy protein isolate (SPI-) (<6 mg/d isoflavones);

or 3) milk protein isolate (0 mg/d isoflavones).

For 6 mo, the men consumed the protein isolates in divided

doses twice daily as a partial meal replacement.

Serum samples collected at 0, 3, and 6 mo were

analyzed for circulating estradiol, estrone,

sex hormone-binding globulin, androstenedione,

androstanediol glucuronide, dehydroepiandrosterone

sulfate, dihydrotestosterone, testosterone, and

free testosterone concentrations by RIA.

Prostate biopsy samples obtained pre- and

postintervention were analyzed for androgen receptor (AR)

and estrogen receptor-beta expression by immunohistochemistry.

At 6 mo, consumption of SPI+ significantly suppressed AR

expression but did not alter estrogen

receptor-beta expression or circulating hormones.

Consumption of SPI- significantly increased estradiol and

androstenedione concentrations, and tended to

suppress AR expression (P = 0.09). Although the effects

of SPI- consumption on estradiol and androstenedione are

difficult to interpret and the clinical relevance is

uncertain, these data show that AR expression in

the prostate is suppressed by soy protein isolate

consumption, which may be beneficial in preventing

prostate cancer.

PMID: 17585029 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[Guest guest]

Personally, I avoid Soy or isoflavone supplements.

I saw the abstract more as evidence not to use

soy than to take it. I do take selenium and a high

dose of vitamin D3 in hopes of keeping the

prostate healthy.

I do wonder if the granular form of lecithin

contain isoflavones?

Thanks for all your comments Philip.

> The full article will come available

> without charge in a August.

>

> 1: J Nutr. 2007 Jul;137(7):1769-75.

>

> Isoflavone-rich soy protein isolate suppresses androgen

> receptor expression without altering estrogen

> receptor-beta expression or serum hormonal profiles in

> men at high risk of prostate cancer.

>

> Hamilton-Reeves JM, Rebello SA, W,

> Slaton JW, Kurzer MS.

>

> Department of Food Science and Nutrition,

> University of Minnesota, Minneapolis,

> MN 55455, USA.

>

> The purpose of this study was to determine the effects of

> soy protein isolate consumption on circulating hormone

> profiles and hormone receptor expression patterns

> in men at high risk for developing advanced prostate cancer.

> Fifty-eight men were randomly assigned to consume

> 1 of 3 protein isolates containing 40 g/d

> protein: 1) soy protein isolate (SPI+)

> (107 mg/d isoflavones); 2) alcohol-washed

> soy protein isolate (SPI-) (<6 mg/d isoflavones);

> or 3) milk protein isolate (0 mg/d isoflavones).

> For 6 mo, the men consumed the protein isolates in divided

> doses twice daily as a partial meal replacement.

> Serum samples collected at 0, 3, and 6 mo were

> analyzed for circulating estradiol, estrone,

> sex hormone-binding globulin, androstenedione,

> androstanediol glucuronide, dehydroepiandrosterone

> sulfate, dihydrotestosterone, testosterone, and

> free testosterone concentrations by RIA.

> Prostate biopsy samples obtained pre- and

> postintervention were analyzed for androgen receptor (AR)

> and estrogen receptor-beta expression by immunohistochemistry.

> At 6 mo, consumption of SPI+ significantly suppressed AR

> expression but did not alter estrogen

> receptor-beta expression or circulating hormones.

> Consumption of SPI- significantly increased estradiol and

> androstenedione concentrations, and tended to

> suppress AR expression (P = 0.09). Although the effects

> of SPI- consumption on estradiol and androstenedione are

> difficult to interpret and the clinical relevance is

> uncertain, these data show that AR expression in

> the prostate is suppressed by soy protein isolate

> consumption, which may be beneficial in preventing

> prostate cancer.

>

> PMID: 17585029 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

>

>

[Guest guest]

Phil,

Regarding the Synthroid you mention, doctors had me on it for ten years

while I complained and they gave me no other options, once I was

diagnosed/treated for low T 150 (250-800) [i was tested at my request], I

felt much better but still not 100% so I did some reading and told my Endo I

wanted to switch to Armour and see haw I felt on that, I must say it was

like I suggested that she give me a script for POT she was completely

indignant about it so I found a GP who would (by the way my Endo has been

good with my T) that being said my GP put my on Armour and doesn't dose by

TSH but FT4/FT3 so my TSH is very suppressed, anyway I went back to the Endo

six months later and told her I switched she then pounced on me telling me

its a " placebo " drug and it would have no affect, then she took out my blood

work and preceded to tell me that my TSH is suppressed and I'm now

Hyperthyroid I asked her how can that be if its a placebo! I just told her

to call my GP if she doesn't like it I have no Hyper symptoms and my FT4/FT3

are withing specifications so I'm going with what he said, needles to say

she wasn't' happy.

My GP is a good doctor and will fill my T/HCG scripts and also agrees on the

protocol that I'm on but after 10 years of dealing with this I find it

refreshing to have a back up in case one of them refuses to work with me.

On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 4:56 PM, philip georgian <pmgamer18@...>

wrote:

> There are some days I over do this and it's my own doing I am starting

> to cut back on my time on the web. I go and read new posts but let them sit

> to see what the other guys say most of the guys are doing a good job of it.

> At meso I don't even post much anymore the thyroid forum keeps me busy it's

> like you need to hold there hand on what labs and the kind of Dr. they need

> some have been seeing bad Dr.'s for way to long and they are a mess. I just

> can't see an Endo putting someone on Synthroid and year after year they tell

> the Endo they don't feel good and all they do is tell them it's in there

> head. Some people don't do good on just Synthroid and the longer they are on

> it the worse there adrenals get. And then they needed to test and treat them

> before treating there thyroid.

>

> Roy <chickenbirdtree@... <chickenbirdtree%40>>

> wrote: Phil I couldn't agree with you more. There are too many guys trying

> to

> diagnose themselves rather than going to their doctors who are supposed

> to be better at this than the person trying to diagnose themselves. Why

> go into all this crap when all you need to do is find a good doctor and

> let

> him diagnose you. If you are low on testosterone then he will give you

> a subscription to get some or will give you shots himself. If you do take

> T then the thing to watch is your E2 levels which can be taken care of

> by taking .25mg of Arimidex. Start slowly and work up to where your

> E2 is running anywhere from 20 to maybe 30 depending on your body

> needs. That is all that I do and I feel fine. I don't anything else except

> Zinc and copper. I am 84 and doing well so leave all the diagnosis to

> the experts or those who have studied medicine and stop going into all

> this, " What studies you have read. " All the things in these studies are

> not true anyway. Listen to your body like Phil has posted many times

> and forget the rest you will be better off. Soy is not on my list either.

> Phil

> you don't have to be on there all this time to let guys know what to take,

> take a break. You are living on this too much for your own sake. My

> sympathy goes out to you but am also concerned about you.The

> only reason I take Zinc and copper is because Phil said it will help and

> my eye doctor told me to take it as it will help me with a deteriorating

> retna in one eye.

> Every blessing to you,

> Roy

>

> philip georgian <pmgamer18@... <pmgamer18%40>> wrote:

> There is a lot of studies going on and some done about high levels of

> Estradiol being the cause of some prostate cancers. And yes like I said soy

> has a marker of E's that don't do anything but take up space in the cells.

> So with women that have to much Estrogen taking soy isoflavones will lower

> the Estrogen levels. In men it lower there estradiol and testosterone levels

> because the soy marker is filling the cells and the brain sees this as

> Testosterone and stops sending the LH message to the testis to make T. E2 is

> made from T so both go down and if it's true that some prostate cancers are

> due to E2 the study would show this helped. But long term this is not good

> the poor man ends up low on both.

>

> In this study all they needed to do was to lower the guys E2 levels with

> DIM or Arimidex.

>

> Soy makes no sense to me with all that I have seen happen to men posting

> on the forums with low T.

>

> All I am trying to do it get the word out there I don't mean to come

> across like it's the law it's just the way I wright and I this is not the

> best thing I am good at. Most times I am at this 12 hrs a day and don't even

> having the time to double check what I have typed. So some times I read back

> what I posted and can't believe what I did with typo's and spelling.

>

> Most people that know me know this and over look it. I am not hear to win

> a contest on writing I am just trying to get the word out.

>

> Most of the people that come down on my posts about soy are Vegetarians.

>

> Lately I have been feeling burned out doing this and try to take a day off

> when I do come back on I read a story that dam near breaks my heart. I

> suffered for over 23 yrs with seeing Dr.'s that missed what was wrong with

> me and it cost my most of my life. So here I am everyday putting the word

> out there the best I can so men don't suffer like I did.

>

> betaine_hcl <no_reply <no_reply%40>> wrote:

> The full article will come available

> without charge in a August.

>

> 1: J Nutr. 2007 Jul;137(7):1769-75.

>

> Isoflavone-rich soy protein isolate suppresses androgen

> receptor expression without altering estrogen

> receptor-beta expression or serum hormonal profiles in

> men at high risk of prostate cancer.

>

> Hamilton-Reeves JM, Rebello SA, W,

> Slaton JW, Kurzer MS.

>

> Department of Food Science and Nutrition,

> University of Minnesota, Minneapolis,

> MN 55455, USA.

>

> The purpose of this study was to determine the effects of

> soy protein isolate consumption on circulating hormone

> profiles and hormone receptor expression patterns

> in men at high risk for developing advanced prostate cancer.

> Fifty-eight men were randomly assigned to consume

> 1 of 3 protein isolates containing 40 g/d

> protein: 1) soy protein isolate (SPI+)

> (107 mg/d isoflavones); 2) alcohol-washed

> soy protein isolate (SPI-) (<6 mg/d isoflavones);

> or 3) milk protein isolate (0 mg/d isoflavones).

> For 6 mo, the men consumed the protein isolates in divided

> doses twice daily as a partial meal replacement.

> Serum samples collected at 0, 3, and 6 mo were

> analyzed for circulating estradiol, estrone,

> sex hormone-binding globulin, androstenedione,

> androstanediol glucuronide, dehydroepiandrosterone

> sulfate, dihydrotestosterone, testosterone, and

> free testosterone concentrations by RIA.

> Prostate biopsy samples obtained pre- and

> postintervention were analyzed for androgen receptor (AR)

> and estrogen receptor-beta expression by immunohistochemistry.

> At 6 mo, consumption of SPI+ significantly suppressed AR

> expression but did not alter estrogen

> receptor-beta expression or circulating hormones.

> Consumption of SPI- significantly increased estradiol and

> androstenedione concentrations, and tended to

> suppress AR expression (P = 0.09). Although the effects

> of SPI- consumption on estradiol and androstenedione are

> difficult to interpret and the clinical relevance is

> uncertain, these data show that AR expression in

> the prostate is suppressed by soy protein isolate

> consumption, which may be beneficial in preventing

> prostate cancer.

>

> PMID: 17585029 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yes I hear bad storys about Endo's some people find a good one but most are not

good Dr.'s for Thyroid or Low T. TSH is the message sent by the brain to make

more Thyroid hormone much like the LH to make more T. So as one takes Armour

there TSH goes down all this means is your on all the T's need to support your

thyroid and your brain feels you don't need more. The best way to tell if your

on enough Armour is by how your feel I know women that are above the top of the

range for FT3 and feel there best. Also most people take there armour 3 times a

day and put it under there toung.

Here are some links to some good info about Thyroid.

http://www.thyroid-info.com/articles/woliner.htm

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/w/u/wurmstei/

The bottom line about all this is to be sure you have good Cortisol levels to

carry the Thyroid hormone out of your blood into your cells. Most people can't

take the right dose of armour because there Adrenals are over worked and they

don't make enough Cortisol so as they go up on the dose they feel like there

having a heart attack because the hormone is building up to high in there blood.

This is a dam good link by a Dr..

http://www.livingnetwork.co.za/healingnetwork/adrenals_thyroid.html

Osborne <ozzmed@...> wrote:

Phil,

Regarding the Synthroid you mention, doctors had me on it for ten years

while I complained and they gave me no other options, once I was

diagnosed/treated for low T 150 (250-800) [i was tested at my request], I

felt much better but still not 100% so I did some reading and told my Endo I

wanted to switch to Armour and see haw I felt on that, I must say it was

like I suggested that she give me a script for POT she was completely

indignant about it so I found a GP who would (by the way my Endo has been

good with my T) that being said my GP put my on Armour and doesn't dose by

TSH but FT4/FT3 so my TSH is very suppressed, anyway I went back to the Endo

six months later and told her I switched she then pounced on me telling me

its a " placebo " drug and it would have no affect, then she took out my blood

work and preceded to tell me that my TSH is suppressed and I'm now

Hyperthyroid I asked her how can that be if its a placebo! I just told her

to call my GP if she doesn't like it I have no Hyper symptoms and my FT4/FT3

are withing specifications so I'm going with what he said, needles to say

she wasn't' happy.

My GP is a good doctor and will fill my T/HCG scripts and also agrees on the

protocol that I'm on but after 10 years of dealing with this I find it

refreshing to have a back up in case one of them refuses to work with me.

On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 4:56 PM, philip georgian <pmgamer18@...>

wrote:

> There are some days I over do this and it's my own doing I am starting

> to cut back on my time on the web. I go and read new posts but let them sit

> to see what the other guys say most of the guys are doing a good job of it.

> At meso I don't even post much anymore the thyroid forum keeps me busy it's

> like you need to hold there hand on what labs and the kind of Dr. they need

> some have been seeing bad Dr.'s for way to long and they are a mess. I just

> can't see an Endo putting someone on Synthroid and year after year they tell

> the Endo they don't feel good and all they do is tell them it's in there

> head. Some people don't do good on just Synthroid and the longer they are on

> it the worse there adrenals get. And then they needed to test and treat them

> before treating there thyroid.

>

> Roy <chickenbirdtree@... <chickenbirdtree%40>>

> wrote: Phil I couldn't agree with you more. There are too many guys trying

> to

> diagnose themselves rather than going to their doctors who are supposed

> to be better at this than the person trying to diagnose themselves. Why

> go into all this crap when all you need to do is find a good doctor and

> let

> him diagnose you. If you are low on testosterone then he will give you

> a subscription to get some or will give you shots himself. If you do take

> T then the thing to watch is your E2 levels which can be taken care of

> by taking .25mg of Arimidex. Start slowly and work up to where your

> E2 is running anywhere from 20 to maybe 30 depending on your body

> needs. That is all that I do and I feel fine. I don't anything else except

> Zinc and copper. I am 84 and doing well so leave all the diagnosis to

> the experts or those who have studied medicine and stop going into all

> this, " What studies you have read. " All the things in these studies are

> not true anyway. Listen to your body like Phil has posted many times

> and forget the rest you will be better off. Soy is not on my list either.

> Phil

> you don't have to be on there all this time to let guys know what to take,

> take a break. You are living on this too much for your own sake. My

> sympathy goes out to you but am also concerned about you.The

> only reason I take Zinc and copper is because Phil said it will help and

> my eye doctor told me to take it as it will help me with a deteriorating

> retna in one eye.

> Every blessing to you,

> Roy

>

> philip georgian <pmgamer18@... <pmgamer18%40>> wrote:

> There is a lot of studies going on and some done about high levels of

> Estradiol being the cause of some prostate cancers. And yes like I said soy

> has a marker of E's that don't do anything but take up space in the cells.

> So with women that have to much Estrogen taking soy isoflavones will lower

> the Estrogen levels. In men it lower there estradiol and testosterone levels

> because the soy marker is filling the cells and the brain sees this as

> Testosterone and stops sending the LH message to the testis to make T. E2 is

> made from T so both go down and if it's true that some prostate cancers are

> due to E2 the study would show this helped. But long term this is not good

> the poor man ends up low on both.

>

> In this study all they needed to do was to lower the guys E2 levels with

> DIM or Arimidex.

>

> Soy makes no sense to me with all that I have seen happen to men posting

> on the forums with low T.

>

> All I am trying to do it get the word out there I don't mean to come

> across like it's the law it's just the way I wright and I this is not the

> best thing I am good at. Most times I am at this 12 hrs a day and don't even

> having the time to double check what I have typed. So some times I read back

> what I posted and can't believe what I did with typo's and spelling.

>

> Most people that know me know this and over look it. I am not hear to win

> a contest on writing I am just trying to get the word out.

>

> Most of the people that come down on my posts about soy are Vegetarians.

>

> Lately I have been feeling burned out doing this and try to take a day off

> when I do come back on I read a story that dam near breaks my heart. I

> suffered for over 23 yrs with seeing Dr.'s that missed what was wrong with

> me and it cost my most of my life. So here I am everyday putting the word

> out there the best I can so men don't suffer like I did.

>

> betaine_hcl <no_reply <no_reply%40>> wrote:

> The full article will come available

> without charge in a August.

>

> 1: J Nutr. 2007 Jul;137(7):1769-75.

>

> Isoflavone-rich soy protein isolate suppresses androgen

> receptor expression without altering estrogen

> receptor-beta expression or serum hormonal profiles in

> men at high risk of prostate cancer.

>

> Hamilton-Reeves JM, Rebello SA, W,

> Slaton JW, Kurzer MS.

>

> Department of Food Science and Nutrition,

> University of Minnesota, Minneapolis,

> MN 55455, USA.

>

> The purpose of this study was to determine the effects of

> soy protein isolate consumption on circulating hormone

> profiles and hormone receptor expression patterns

> in men at high risk for developing advanced prostate cancer.

> Fifty-eight men were randomly assigned to consume

> 1 of 3 protein isolates containing 40 g/d

> protein: 1) soy protein isolate (SPI+)

> (107 mg/d isoflavones); 2) alcohol-washed

> soy protein isolate (SPI-) (<6 mg/d isoflavones);

> or 3) milk protein isolate (0 mg/d isoflavones).

> For 6 mo, the men consumed the protein isolates in divided

> doses twice daily as a partial meal replacement.

> Serum samples collected at 0, 3, and 6 mo were

> analyzed for circulating estradiol, estrone,

> sex hormone-binding globulin, androstenedione,

> androstanediol glucuronide, dehydroepiandrosterone

> sulfate, dihydrotestosterone, testosterone, and

> free testosterone concentrations by RIA.

> Prostate biopsy samples obtained pre- and

> postintervention were analyzed for androgen receptor (AR)

> and estrogen receptor-beta expression by immunohistochemistry.

> At 6 mo, consumption of SPI+ significantly suppressed AR

> expression but did not alter estrogen

> receptor-beta expression or circulating hormones.

> Consumption of SPI- significantly increased estradiol and

> androstenedione concentrations, and tended to

> suppress AR expression (P = 0.09). Although the effects

> of SPI- consumption on estradiol and androstenedione are

> difficult to interpret and the clinical relevance is

> uncertain, these data show that AR expression in

> the prostate is suppressed by soy protein isolate

> consumption, which may be beneficial in preventing

> prostate cancer.

>

> PMID: 17585029 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

>

>

[Guest guest]

I have been taking 6grains split over 3 times a day under the tung I had a

big problem adjusting at first so I started taking a little Isocort during

the day and have been working my self off of it. I cant find a doctor that

will work with me regarding adrenals they just want to do the AM cortisol

and won't look at any outside labs I'm hoping when I work off the Isocort

I'll maintain how I feel now about 90% thats much better than the 0% I was

feeling a little over two years ago. Oh I also supplement Iron (was low)

and 4000iu D (was also low) I also take a b150 pill and 50mg pregnolan each

day and get B12 shots at my doctor every couple mos.. I have been able to

loose 30lb not going crazy just walking in about six months so I'm on a good

path.

On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 9:31 AM, philip georgian <pmgamer18@...>

wrote:

> Yes I hear bad storys about Endo's some people find a good one but most

> are not good Dr.'s for Thyroid or Low T. TSH is the message sent by the

> brain to make more Thyroid hormone much like the LH to make more T. So as

> one takes Armour there TSH goes down all this means is your on all the T's

> need to support your thyroid and your brain feels you don't need more. The

> best way to tell if your on enough Armour is by how your feel I know women

> that are above the top of the range for FT3 and feel there best. Also most

> people take there armour 3 times a day and put it under there toung.

>

> Here are some links to some good info about Thyroid.

> http://www.thyroid-info.com/articles/woliner.htm

> http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

> http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/w/u/wurmstei/

>

> The bottom line about all this is to be sure you have good Cortisol levels

> to carry the Thyroid hormone out of your blood into your cells. Most people

> can't take the right dose of armour because there Adrenals are over worked

> and they don't make enough Cortisol so as they go up on the dose they feel

> like there having a heart attack because the hormone is building up to high

> in there blood.

>

> This is a dam good link by a Dr..

> http://www.livingnetwork.co.za/healingnetwork/adrenals_thyroid.html

>

>

> Osborne <ozzmed@... <ozzmed%40gmail.com>> wrote:

> Phil,

>

> Regarding the Synthroid you mention, doctors had me on it for ten years

> while I complained and they gave me no other options, once I was

> diagnosed/treated for low T 150 (250-800) [i was tested at my request], I

> felt much better but still not 100% so I did some reading and told my Endo

> I

> wanted to switch to Armour and see haw I felt on that, I must say it was

> like I suggested that she give me a script for POT she was completely

> indignant about it so I found a GP who would (by the way my Endo has been

> good with my T) that being said my GP put my on Armour and doesn't dose by

> TSH but FT4/FT3 so my TSH is very suppressed, anyway I went back to the

> Endo

> six months later and told her I switched she then pounced on me telling me

> its a " placebo " drug and it would have no affect, then she took out my

> blood

> work and preceded to tell me that my TSH is suppressed and I'm now

> Hyperthyroid I asked her how can that be if its a placebo! I just told her

> to call my GP if she doesn't like it I have no Hyper symptoms and my

> FT4/FT3

> are withing specifications so I'm going with what he said, needles to say

> she wasn't' happy.

>

> My GP is a good doctor and will fill my T/HCG scripts and also agrees on

> the

> protocol that I'm on but after 10 years of dealing with this I find it

> refreshing to have a back up in case one of them refuses to work with me.

>

> On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 4:56 PM, philip georgian

<pmgamer18@...<pmgamer18%40>

> >

> wrote:

>

> > There are some days I over do this and it's my own doing I am starting

> > to cut back on my time on the web. I go and read new posts but let them

> sit

> > to see what the other guys say most of the guys are doing a good job of

> it.

> > At meso I don't even post much anymore the thyroid forum keeps me busy

> it's

> > like you need to hold there hand on what labs and the kind of Dr. they

> need

> > some have been seeing bad Dr.'s for way to long and they are a mess. I

> just

> > can't see an Endo putting someone on Synthroid and year after year they

> tell

> > the Endo they don't feel good and all they do is tell them it's in there

> > head. Some people don't do good on just Synthroid and the longer they

> are on

> > it the worse there adrenals get. And then they needed to test and treat

> them

> > before treating there thyroid.

> >

> > Roy <chickenbirdtree@...

<chickenbirdtree%40><chickenbirdtree%

> 40>>

>

> > wrote: Phil I couldn't agree with you more. There are too many guys

> trying

> > to

> > diagnose themselves rather than going to their doctors who are supposed

> > to be better at this than the person trying to diagnose themselves. Why

> > go into all this crap when all you need to do is find a good doctor and

> > let

> > him diagnose you. If you are low on testosterone then he will give you

> > a subscription to get some or will give you shots himself. If you do

> take

> > T then the thing to watch is your E2 levels which can be taken care of

> > by taking .25mg of Arimidex. Start slowly and work up to where your

> > E2 is running anywhere from 20 to maybe 30 depending on your body

> > needs. That is all that I do and I feel fine. I don't anything else

> except

> > Zinc and copper. I am 84 and doing well so leave all the diagnosis to

> > the experts or those who have studied medicine and stop going into all

> > this, " What studies you have read. " All the things in these studies are

> > not true anyway. Listen to your body like Phil has posted many times

> > and forget the rest you will be better off. Soy is not on my list

> either.

> > Phil

> > you don't have to be on there all this time to let guys know what to

> take,

> > take a break. You are living on this too much for your own sake. My

> > sympathy goes out to you but am also concerned about you.The

> > only reason I take Zinc and copper is because Phil said it will help and

> > my eye doctor told me to take it as it will help me with a deteriorating

> > retna in one eye.

> > Every blessing to you,

> > Roy

> >

> > philip georgian <pmgamer18@... <pmgamer18%40> <pmgamer18%

> 40>> wrote:

> > There is a lot of studies going on and some done about high levels of

> > Estradiol being the cause of some prostate cancers. And yes like I said

> soy

> > has a marker of E's that don't do anything but take up space in the

> cells.

> > So with women that have to much Estrogen taking soy isoflavones will

> lower

> > the Estrogen levels. In men it lower there estradiol and testosterone

> levels

> > because the soy marker is filling the cells and the brain sees this as

> > Testosterone and stops sending the LH message to the testis to make T.

> E2 is

> > made from T so both go down and if it's true that some prostate cancers

> are

> > due to E2 the study would show this helped. But long term this is not

> good

> > the poor man ends up low on both.

> >

> > In this study all they needed to do was to lower the guys E2 levels with

> > DIM or Arimidex.

> >

> > Soy makes no sense to me with all that I have seen happen to men posting

> > on the forums with low T.

> >

> > All I am trying to do it get the word out there I don't mean to come

> > across like it's the law it's just the way I wright and I this is not

> the

> > best thing I am good at. Most times I am at this 12 hrs a day and don't

> even

> > having the time to double check what I have typed. So some times I read

> back

> > what I posted and can't believe what I did with typo's and spelling.

> >

> > Most people that know me know this and over look it. I am not hear to

> win

> > a contest on writing I am just trying to get the word out.

> >

> > Most of the people that come down on my posts about soy are Vegetarians.

> >

> > Lately I have been feeling burned out doing this and try to take a day

> off

> > when I do come back on I read a story that dam near breaks my heart. I

> > suffered for over 23 yrs with seeing Dr.'s that missed what was wrong

> with

> > me and it cost my most of my life. So here I am everyday putting the

> word

> > out there the best I can so men don't suffer like I did.

> >

> > betaine_hcl <no_reply <no_reply%40><no_reply%

> 40>> wrote:

> > The full article will come available

> > without charge in a August.

> >

> > 1: J Nutr. 2007 Jul;137(7):1769-75.

> >

> > Isoflavone-rich soy protein isolate suppresses androgen

> > receptor expression without altering estrogen

> > receptor-beta expression or serum hormonal profiles in

> > men at high risk of prostate cancer.

> >

> > Hamilton-Reeves JM, Rebello SA, W,

> > Slaton JW, Kurzer MS.

> >

> > Department of Food Science and Nutrition,

> > University of Minnesota, Minneapolis,

> > MN 55455, USA.

> >

> > The purpose of this study was to determine the effects of

> > soy protein isolate consumption on circulating hormone

> > profiles and hormone receptor expression patterns

> > in men at high risk for developing advanced prostate cancer.

> > Fifty-eight men were randomly assigned to consume

> > 1 of 3 protein isolates containing 40 g/d

> > protein: 1) soy protein isolate (SPI+)

> > (107 mg/d isoflavones); 2) alcohol-washed

> > soy protein isolate (SPI-) (<6 mg/d isoflavones);

> > or 3) milk protein isolate (0 mg/d isoflavones).

> > For 6 mo, the men consumed the protein isolates in divided

> > doses twice daily as a partial meal replacement.

> > Serum samples collected at 0, 3, and 6 mo were

> > analyzed for circulating estradiol, estrone,

> > sex hormone-binding globulin, androstenedione,

> > androstanediol glucuronide, dehydroepiandrosterone

> > sulfate, dihydrotestosterone, testosterone, and

> > free testosterone concentrations by RIA.

> > Prostate biopsy samples obtained pre- and

> > postintervention were analyzed for androgen receptor (AR)

> > and estrogen receptor-beta expression by immunohistochemistry.

> > At 6 mo, consumption of SPI+ significantly suppressed AR

> > expression but did not alter estrogen

> > receptor-beta expression or circulating hormones.

> > Consumption of SPI- significantly increased estradiol and

> > androstenedione concentrations, and tended to

> > suppress AR expression (P = 0.09). Although the effects

> > of SPI- consumption on estradiol and androstenedione are

> > difficult to interpret and the clinical relevance is

> > uncertain, these data show that AR expression in

> > the prostate is suppressed by soy protein isolate

> > consumption, which may be beneficial in preventing

> > prostate cancer.

> >

> > PMID: 17585029 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 11:42:51 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

>Phil I couldn't agree with you more. There are too many guys trying to

> diagnose themselves rather than going to their doctors who are supposed

> to be better at this than the person trying to diagnose themselves. Why

> go into all this crap when all you need to do is find a good doctor and let

> him diagnose you.

Ah would it were so easy. What is supposed to be and what is are quite

different. 90% of us here have had abysmal experience with doctors and

these conditions. Most don't order all the necessary tests in the

process. Most don't offer TRT for folks in the debilitating 250 to 400

range. All too many have to withdraw us from our therapy to go back

and do the tests they should have done to begin with. Most don't know

the newer therapies and prescribe shots at unbearably long and harmful

intervals of two three and even four weeks or push gels at $1,000s a

year and ignore shots at a couple hundred $ a year. Almost none are

aware of HCH. Most don't listen to their patients. And virtually none

are up on the literature and know about E2 etc.Etc., etc.

[Guest guest]

This is so true and such a dam shame.

retrogrouch@... wrote: On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 11:42:51 -0700

(PDT), you wrote:

>Phil I couldn't agree with you more. There are too many guys trying to

> diagnose themselves rather than going to their doctors who are supposed

> to be better at this than the person trying to diagnose themselves. Why

> go into all this crap when all you need to do is find a good doctor and let

> him diagnose you.

Ah would it were so easy. What is supposed to be and what is are quite

different. 90% of us here have had abysmal experience with doctors and

these conditions. Most don't order all the necessary tests in the

process. Most don't offer TRT for folks in the debilitating 250 to 400

range. All too many have to withdraw us from our therapy to go back

and do the tests they should have done to begin with. Most don't know

the newer therapies and prescribe shots at unbearably long and harmful

intervals of two three and even four weeks or push gels at $1,000s a

year and ignore shots at a couple hundred $ a year. Almost none are

aware of HCH. Most don't listen to their patients. And virtually none

are up on the literature and know about E2 etc.Etc., etc.

Co-Moderator " Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see. "

Phil

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