RBC, T, Biliruben, and E level all too high - Polycythemia vera?

[Guest guest]

Went for lab results from annual physical. Dr said T level is too high but even

more importantly my RBS are too high and it could be from too much T or that I

now have polycythemia vera.

I had taken an injection on Tuesday night of 40 cc Test Cyp 200mg/100ml for my

weekly dose. The blood was drawn early Sat am. Last years numbers are listed

first and in parenthesis for comparison, this years numbers are second. The

Dr.'s suggestion is that I cut back on the T to try and bring the numbers down.

He has left it open as to how much I should cut back and wants another RBC level

in a month and to see me again in 3. (I was taking Phytopharmica's Indoplex

w.Dim on the day after an injection –obviously that isn't enough. I haven't had

am wood except occasionally in many years so am unable to use that as a gauge of

E level.)

So my questions are

1. What are the lower effective doses? (I thought I WAS taking a lower dose as

it was lower than 50cc.) How much should I try cutting back?

2. Should I try and take Dim days 2 and 3 after the injection? and then maybe a

½ pill on day 4?

3. Anyone else here have polycythemia? Was it the result of T injections? Did it

go away? How did you deal with it?

lab results and reference levels

Testosterone total (149) ng/dl 706 ref. 250-1100

measured by LCMSMS correlates well with extratction/RIA method

% Free ( 1.82%) 2.35 ref 1.5-2.2

Estradiol 55

Testosterone Free 27.1 165.6 pg/nl ref 35-155

TSH 1.21 ( 1.6) 0.47-4.69

Free T4 1.2 (1.2) 0.8-2.2

Free T3 3.9 na 2.8-5.3

FSH 2.1 na 1.55-9.74 males

LH 2.7 na 1.5-9.3

CBC reference

WBC (6.0 ) 7.0 3.8-10.8

RBC (5.48) 6.37 4.4-5.8

Hemoglobin (16.7) 19.2 13.8-17.2 checked and rechecked

Hematocrit (48.5) 56.5 41.0-50.0

MCV 88.5 (88.7) 80.0-100.0

MCH 30.5 (30.1) 27.0-33

MCHC 34.5 (34.0) 32.0-36.0

RDW 13.1 (14.7) 9.0-15.0%

Platlet 285 (258) 130-400

Prostate Specific Antigen

Total PSA (0.4) 0.7 <4.0

Comp Metabolic Panel ref

Sodium (142) 142 135-148

Potassium (4.9) 3.8 3.4-5.3

Chlorine (106) 102 96-110

Carbon dioxide (24) 27 19-32

Glucose (103) 97 70-100

Bun (14 ) 12 3-29

Creatinine (1.0) 1.1 0.5-1.4

Bun/Creatinine ratio (14 ) 11 7-25

GFR estimated (>60) >60 > or =60

Calcium (9.1) 9.1 8.5-10.4

Total Protein (7.1 ) 7.2 6.0-8.3

Albumin (4.5 ) 4.7 3.5-4.9

Globulin (2.6 ) 2.5 1.9-3.6

A/G ratio 1.7 1.9 0.8-2.0

BiliTotal (1.) 1.6 1 0.0-1.4

AST (SGOT) (28 ) 32 0-46

ALT (SGPT) (36) 36 0-60

ALK Phos (81) 79 23-144

Total Chol (214 ) 183 desirable<200

Triglycerides (126) 100 normal <150

HDL (44 ) 47 desirable >60

LDL (145) 116 optimal <100

VLDL Cholesterol (25) 20 ref 4-38

[Guest guest]

Doing labs 4 days after your shot give you peak levels I am betting your levels

are less then 600 if you did this test on the morning of our labs before doing

the shot. And way are you doing your shots at night best to do them in the

morning so it does not keep you up all night.

I do 2x's the amount your doing but I do my shots every 3 days to keep my blood

levels down and my Estradiol levels down. Also this keeps me more leveled. I

RBC's like yours when I am Dehydrated you need to drink a good 2 big glass's of

water before doing your labs. And make sure you drink 8 glass's a day of water.

Thicker blood is nothing to be messed with best way to cut this down is to give

blood don't tell them your on TRT and your blood is to thick just give it. Go

do it now and next time you do labs don't wait so long. I get my labs every 8

weeks this needs to be checked more often.

I would not cut back on your dose of Testosterone .40 cc (I think you left the

dec. point off) of 200mgs./ml is only a 80 mg shot If your doing 40cc this is =

to 40mls. that is a dam big shot 8000 mgs.here is what I would do. Do your

shots 2x's a week do .5cc or .5mls = 50mgs this cuts down on your dose holds

down your Estradiol and helps keep your blood thinner if it's a problem. Also

take one baby aspirin 2x's a day this is good for your heart and keeps blood a

little thinner.

My needles are mls. but I am sure CC's are = to Mls on needles.

I would also get some HCG and do a 250 IU's shot the day before doing your T

shots is you do them 2x's a week if not do 250 IU's the 2 days each before doing

your T shot. Doing this will keep your testis working and your levels more

even.

If you can still get Indolplex/DIM take it everyday this is why your Estradiol

levels are still to high and your not getting night time and morning wood. Of

ask your Dr. for Arimidex cut the pill into 4 parts I use a pill cutter to cut

the small pill in half then I stand it on end and use a single edge razor to cut

the half in half. Take .25mgs every other day until you get your levels down

you should get some strong night time and morning wood with your levels come

down. Keep taking the arimidex but if your wood stops this means your levels

went to low for Estradiol so stop taking it until your wood comes back the day

go back on the arimidex but do .25 mgs or 1/4 of a pill every 3 days. Keep

track how you feel when your levels are high so you know if your going to high

again. I get sore and hard nipples and look red in my face and my upper body.

You need to be able to tell when your levels are going up so you can go back to

every other day on the

Arimidex. So between labs and wood I keep my Estradiol in the right place

about 15 to 20 pg/ml.

You need to test your Cortisol do a morning fasting test if it comes back at 15

or lower you might have Adrenal Fatigue and need a 4x's in a day Saliva test to

see how your rhythm looks your levels should be highest in the morning going

down lower by bedtime. And to tell if your Thyroid is low do this Temp. test in

the morning before you get out of bed.

If you temp is below 97.8 you might need meds.

Shake down the gage to take your temp. and put it on the bed stand in the

morning before getting out of bed put it under your arm for say 10 min.'s if

your temp is less then the above you may well have a thyroid problem.

I am finding a lot of men on TRT are having these problems with low Adrenals and

Thyroid. So do test this.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: emcs1200 <emcs1200@...>

> Subject: RBC, T, Biliruben, and E level all too high -

Polycythemia vera?

>

> Date: Thursday, October 1, 2009, 12:29 PM

> Went for lab results from annual

> physical. Dr said T level is too high but even more

> importantly my RBS are too high and it could be from too

> much T or that I now have polycythemia vera.

>

> I had taken an injection on Tuesday night of 40 cc Test Cyp

> 200mg/100ml for my weekly dose. The blood was drawn early

> Sat am. Last years numbers are listed first and in

> parenthesis for comparison, this years numbers are second.

> The Dr.'s suggestion is that I cut back on the T to try and

> bring the numbers down. He has left it open as to how much I

> should cut back and wants another RBC level in a month and

> to see me again in 3. (I was taking Phytopharmica's Indoplex

> w.Dim on the day after an injection –obviously that isn't

> enough. I haven't had am wood except occasionally in many

> years so am unable to use that as a gauge of E level.)

>

> So my questions are

>

> 1.    What are the lower effective doses? (I

> thought I WAS taking a lower dose as it was lower than

> 50cc.) How much should I try cutting back?

> 2.    Should I try and take Dim days 2 and 3

> after the injection? and then maybe a ½ pill on day 4?

> 3.    Anyone else here have polycythemia?

> Was it the result of T injections? Did it go away? How did

> you deal with it?

>

>

> lab results and reference levels

>

> Testosterone total (149)  ng/dl  706 ref.

> 250-1100

> measured by LCMSMS correlates well with extratction/RIA

> method

>

> % Free ( 1.82%)          

>          2.35 

>    ref 1.5-2.2

>

> Estradiol         55

>

> Testosterone Free 27.1  165.6     

> pg/nl ref 35-155

> TSH 1.21        (

> 1.6)   

>      0.47-4.69

> Free T4 1.2     (1.2)   

>      0.8-2.2

> Free T3 3.9       na   

>      2.8-5.3

> FSH 2.1       

>    na         

>            1.55-9.74

> males

> LH 2.7            na 

>                

>   1.5-9.3

>

>

> CBC           

>           reference

> WBC (6.0 )    7.0   

>     3.8-10.8

> RBC (5.48)     6.37   

>     4.4-5.8

> Hemoglobin (16.7)  19.2   13.8-17.2

> checked and rechecked

> Hematocrit

> (48.5)   56.5   41.0-50.0

> MCV 88.5   

>    (88.7)       

>         80.0-100.0

> MCH 30.5     (30.1)   

>     27.0-33

> MCHC 34.5     (34.0)   

>     32.0-36.0

> RDW 13.1     (14.7)   

>     9.0-15.0%

> Platlet 285     (258)   

>     130-400

>

> Prostate Specific Antigen

> Total PSA  (0.4)      

> 0.7        <4.0

>

> Comp Metabolic Panel     ref

> Sodium (142)    142   

>     135-148

> Potassium (4.9)     3.8   

>     3.4-5.3

> Chlorine (106)    102   

>     96-110

> Carbon dioxide (24) 27       

> 19-32

> Glucose (103)       

> 97        70-100

> Bun (14 )    12   

>     3-29

> Creatinine (1.0)   1.1   

>     0.5-1.4

> Bun/Creatinine ratio (14 )

> 11     7-25

> GFR estimated (>60) 

> >60     > or =60

> Calcium (9.1)       

> 9.1     8.5-10.4

> Total Protein (7.1 )   

> 7.2    6.0-8.3

> Albumin (4.5 )       

> 4.7    3.5-4.9

> Globulin (2.6 )       

> 2.5    1.9-3.6

> A/G ratio 1.7       

> 1.9     0.8-2.0

> BiliTotal (1.)   

>    1.6    1 0.0-1.4

> AST (SGOT) (28 )    32   

> 0-46

> ALT (SGPT) (36)     36   

> 0-60

> ALK Phos (81)   

> 79     23-144

>

> Total Chol (214 )    183   

> desirable<200

> Triglycerides (126)    

> 100    normal <150

> HDL             (44

> )    47    desirable >60

> LDL          

>    (145)    116

>     optimal <100

> VLDL Cholesterol (25)  20    ref 4-38

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Phil.

The shots had been twice a week for months but due to wife's travel had only

been able to get the last 2 before the test at weekly intervals. I will try

switching her back to morning injections but she hates getting up as early as I

leave. (I've tried but can't make myself give them.)

I am good at drinking water, it's the only fluid I drink and I know I wasn't

dehydrated as I actually drank some extra that am as it makes it easier for them

to get my veins.

I'm already on warfarin/coumadin and a baby asa daily for chronic DVTs of

unknown origin. INR last week wasn't as high as expected though as it was only

2.3 and is usually 2.6 or 2.7.

I'm going back in a month or so for labs since the RBC's were so high but the

insurance will only pay once a year so it its more than I can afford to go every

other month.

I did leave the decimal point off-we actually use an insulin needle.

Can you tell me more about how/why the HCG will keep my level more even? Also

since I've had a vasectomy and won't have any more children do I need to care

that my testis are/aren't working? To be honest the extra injections would be a

lot more stress for me. I have a real thing about needles, get light headed,

shaky, nauseated etc.

I will add the Indolplex/Dim to the daily meds and ask about Arimidex when I see

Dr. next.

Thanks for the heads up. I do have my Thyroid checked every year as both my

siblings, two nieces, and my mother have Thyroid problems but mine has always

tested fine. I actually feel pretty good too, sleeping 7 hours most nights and

ready to get up and go in the am. My blood pressure is a little high avg. 130/83

and I've had to fight to lose the weight I have lost so based on what I've read

about adrenal fatigue I'm not there yet. (My wife did also do the temp test on

me for about 2 weeks about 6 months ago.)

[Guest guest]

Here is a cut and paste from Dr. of a post he sent me to show to my Dr. to

get him to let me try HCG. It's full of good info and your best bet right now

is to go give blood. If they will not take it heve your Dr. give you a script

to have blood taken.

================================================================================\

======

He probably feels that since you suffer primary hypogonadism (I am guessing)

there is no use in adding HCG to your protocol. There are several reasons why

this is not so. First, you have not lost all Leydig cells, so any HCG you take

will stimulate those who still function to produce endogenous testosterone.

This will support testicular size. We should not ignore this aesthetic

consideration.

Next, if he reads my work, he will learn that HPTA-suppressed (as all TRT

patients are to some extent) also suffer decreased pregenenolone levels, which

is the first step after CHOL in all three hormonal pathways which begin with

CHOL. HCG increases pregnenolone production, and therefore restores a more

natural balance of our hormones.

Next, nearly all TRT patients who add in HCG to their regimens report an

increased sense of well-being and also libido. These are genuine quality of life

issues.

Finally, I just instinctively do not want all those LH receptors (including

those we have yet to discover and appreciate) unstimulated.

================================================================================\

=====

I was like you about doing shots for yrs. you just need to do it the more you do

it the easyer it gets have your wife with you when you give your self a shot you

will get over it.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: emcs1200 <emcs1200@...>

> Subject: Re: RBC, T, Biliruben, and E level all too high -

Polycythemia vera?

>

> Date: Thursday, October 1, 2009, 8:24 PM

>

> Thanks Phil.

>

> The shots had been twice a week for months but due to

> wife's travel had only been able to get the last 2 before

> the test at weekly intervals. I will try switching her back

> to morning injections but she hates getting up as early as I

> leave. (I've tried but can't make myself give them.)

>

> I am good at drinking water, it's the only fluid I drink

> and I know I wasn't dehydrated as I actually drank some

> extra that am as it makes it easier for them to get my

> veins.

>

> I'm already on warfarin/coumadin and a baby asa daily for

> chronic DVTs of unknown origin. INR last week wasn't as high

> as expected though as it was only 2.3 and is usually 2.6 or

> 2.7.

>

> I'm going back in a month or so for labs since the RBC's

> were so high but the insurance will only pay once a year so

> it its more than I can afford to go every other month.

>

> I did leave the decimal point off-we actually use an

> insulin needle.

>

> Can you tell me more about how/why the HCG will keep my

> level more even? Also since I've had a vasectomy and won't

> have any more children do I need to care that my testis

> are/aren't working? To be honest the extra injections would

> be a lot more stress for me. I have a real thing about

> needles, get light headed, shaky, nauseated etc.

>

> I will add the Indolplex/Dim to the daily meds and ask

> about Arimidex when I see Dr. next.

>

> Thanks for the heads up. I do have my Thyroid checked every

> year as both my siblings, two nieces, and my mother have

> Thyroid problems but mine has always tested fine. I actually

> feel pretty good too, sleeping 7 hours most nights and ready

> to get up and go in the am. My blood pressure is a little

> high avg. 130/83 and I've had to fight to lose the weight I

> have lost so based on what I've read about adrenal fatigue

> I'm not there yet. (My wife did also do the temp test on me

> for about 2 weeks about 6 months ago.)

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Please list what lab test they are running to confirm your thyroid. Half drs do

not know their ass from a hole in the wall when it comes to thyroid testing.

High RBC can also represent potential sleep apnea. List all the test results so

we can see what the hell is going on. You may want to have sleep apnea testing

done. IF RBC is elevated it could represent the increase need for oxygen and

also adjustment in TRT to bring levels down to more accessible levels. If you

are in need of a good DR feel free to contact me hardasnails1973@....

YOu also may need some aspirin to help thin the blood (again i would have to see

your blood work in order to see if there are other factors involved with this)

>

> > From: emcs1200 <emcs1200@...>

> > Subject: Re: RBC, T, Biliruben, and E level all too high -

Polycythemia vera?

> >

> > Date: Thursday, October 1, 2009, 8:24 PM

> >

> > Thanks Phil.

> >

> > The shots had been twice a week for months but due to

> > wife's travel had only been able to get the last 2 before

> > the test at weekly intervals. I will try switching her back

> > to morning injections but she hates getting up as early as I

> > leave. (I've tried but can't make myself give them.)

> >

> > I am good at drinking water, it's the only fluid I drink

> > and I know I wasn't dehydrated as I actually drank some

> > extra that am as it makes it easier for them to get my

> > veins.

> >

> > I'm already on warfarin/coumadin and a baby asa daily for

> > chronic DVTs of unknown origin. INR last week wasn't as high

> > as expected though as it was only 2.3 and is usually 2.6 or

> > 2.7.

> >

> > I'm going back in a month or so for labs since the RBC's

> > were so high but the insurance will only pay once a year so

> > it its more than I can afford to go every other month.

> >

> > I did leave the decimal point off-we actually use an

> > insulin needle.

> >

> > Can you tell me more about how/why the HCG will keep my

> > level more even? Also since I've had a vasectomy and won't

> > have any more children do I need to care that my testis

> > are/aren't working? To be honest the extra injections would

> > be a lot more stress for me. I have a real thing about

> > needles, get light headed, shaky, nauseated etc.

> >

> > I will add the Indolplex/Dim to the daily meds and ask

> > about Arimidex when I see Dr. next.

> >

> > Thanks for the heads up. I do have my Thyroid checked every

> > year as both my siblings, two nieces, and my mother have

> > Thyroid problems but mine has always tested fine. I actually

> > feel pretty good too, sleeping 7 hours most nights and ready

> > to get up and go in the am. My blood pressure is a little

> > high avg. 130/83 and I've had to fight to lose the weight I

> > have lost so based on what I've read about adrenal fatigue

> > I'm not there yet. (My wife did also do the temp test on me

> > for about 2 weeks about 6 months ago.)

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

> >