Re: Re: using Epsom salts during a gallstone attack

[Guest guest]

Thank you for your useless suggestion!

--- braddgood <braddgood@...> wrote: > To those

who want scientific evidence that epsom

> salts relax:

>

> This is so simple. Go to the grocery store. Buy

> epsom salts. Read

> on the side of the box that it can be taken

> internally. Take a

> tablespoon of this stuff that is approved for

> internal use. Not

> long afterwords, see if you feel relaxed.

>

> If you don't like the epsom salts idea, go to the

> health food store,

> buy some magnesium, take some, and see if you feel

> relaxed.

>

> There, you have the evidence.

>

> If you are afraid to take epsom salts when it states

> right on the

> box that you can use it for a laxative, and you need

> scientific

> evidence, then you are just too cautious. In that

> case I would

> advise going to your MD and following their orders.

> Alternative

> treatments are not for those who need so much

> scientific evidence.

>

> Peace out.

>

>

>

>

> > , I think Zora asked if there is scientific

> > evidence that this assertion is accurate. That is

> my

> > question too. Could you or any others tell us if

> there

> > are scientific citations/references? And where can

> I

> > find them?

> >

> > Thanks,

> >

> > Xue-Feng

>

>

>

______________________________________________________________________

Post your free ad now! http://personals..ca

[Guest guest]

At 21:45 11.04.2003 -0400, you wrote:

>Thank you for your useless suggestion!

Xue-Feng,

if you are a scientist, why don't you make a research, and then publish it

in a " scientific publication " ?

Why all people expect someone else to do job for them?

There are 1254 people in this list, more then enough for all sorts of

statistical research!

There are over 13533 messages, and at least 5% of them are anecdotal

evidence, good enough for research.

Question for you:

Would any form of statistic give you 100% accurate prediction on what

experience you may have with liver flush?

The answer .... NO.

Statistics can't predict future!

In the end, it is YOU, it is YOUR body, and it is YOUR experience, and

there, on that level, no science matters much, and no science can protect

you from any good or bad outcome of " this experiment " .

If you are looking for science, good place to look for are " scientific

publications " or books.

Here are few interesting messages and articles, unfortunately, they are not

science, just anecdotal evidence, like several thousands of

stories reported in this form, so, it may not be of any help for you who

want to read it from a " scientific publications " , and I am sure you will

not be " helped " by reading them ... so just don't read ...

==================================================================

There is a story reported in The Lancet, medical journal.

" Apple Juice and the Chemical-Contact Softening of Gallstones, " Dekkers R,

Lancet, December 18/25, 1999;354:2171. #34484.

Lancet December 18/25, 1999 354:2171

http://www.thelancet.com/journal/vol354/iss9196/full/llan.354.9196.correspondenc\

e.2464.1

http://www.thelancet.com/

Gallbladder Surgery Alternative

The Lancet reported the use of one quart of pure apple juice for one week.

After one full week of the apple juice one cup of olive oil was used just

before going to bed. The person was instructed to lay on their left side

during the night.

This is an anecdotal case report of a female who, for 1 week, consumed 1

liter of apple juice daily and, on the seventh day, 1 cup of olive oil

before going to bed, resulting in documented cholesterol stones found in

her stools.

=================================================================

=================================================================

quote from Claude M. , author of " Are you 'Stoned'? "

To quote from Dr :

" To clarify the situation and eliminate such questions, I sent a sample of

gall stones to a medical analysis lab run by a Ph.D. who heads up the Science

Department at Texas Woman's University in Denton. He ran the necessary tests "

His analysis of the stone sample I sent was 91% cholesterol and the rest was

bile salts, water and inert ingredients. In other words, the sample had the

chemical contents of gall stones. And the report clearly states it was gall

stones " .

=================================================================

=================================================================

Story From:

http://www.healthlibrary.com/reading/rebello/pg39.htm

Olive Oil Treatment for Gallstones

by Dr. D. Koh

Dept. of Social Medicine and Public Health

National University of Singapore, Lower Kent Ridge Road, Singapore 0511.

Koh reports here a case of spontaneous passage of multiple cholesterol

gall-stones after self-treatment with olive oil and lemon juice.

It is estimated that gallstones are present in approximately 15% of adult

females and 6% of adult males, and its prevalence increases with age.

Although it is generally agreed that there is a need for surgical

treatment, in patients with cholelithiasis who develop complications, the

treatment of 'silent stones' is controversial.

At present, the application of drug treatment of cholelithiasis is

relatively expensive and limited, usually for those unfit for surgery, with

small radiolucent stones, and without history of complications.

Other methods of treatment of gall stones have also been described. Kurtz

and Classen have reported that treatment for common bile duct stones may

include endoscopic removal and lithotripsy, and gallstone dissolution by

irrigation procedures.

CASE REPORT

The patient, a 32-year old Indian male, insurance salesman, had a 3-year

history of epigastric pain and colicky right hypochondrial pain whenever he

took fatty meals. Physical examination was unremarkable and a barium meal

study showed no evidence of gastro-oesophageal reflux or hiatus hernia, and

no evidence of gastric or duodenal ulcer. However, the plain abdominal

X-ray revealed multiple radio-opaque gallstones.

The patient was advised surgery for cholelithiasis, but was not

enthusiastic about the idea. He returned the following day with news that

he had attempted a self-cure for the gallstones using olive oil and lemon

juice. According to him, after fasting from noon, he took one pint of olive

oil and lemon juice at 7 p.m. He then went to sleep on his right side. At

about 2 - 3 a.m., the following morning, he felt a churning sensation in

the abdomen. At 5 a.m. he passed out oily stools which he collected in a

strainer. Upon washing the stools, he found numerous smooth stones.

Analysis of two of the stones showed them to be greenish, smooth and soft,

measuring 15 x 12 x 5 mm and 10 x 6 x 3 mm, respectively.

_________________________________________________________

The stones were found to consist entirely of cholesterol.

_________________________________________________________

TREATMENT

P.Airola in his book How to Get Well has described an 'oil cure' for

removal of gallstones, using raw natural unrefined vegetable oils of olive,

sunflower or walnut, while has prescribed a specific dosage of 1

pint of olive oil and the juice of 8 to 9 lemons. The patient is required

to take 4 tablespoonfuls of olive oil followed by 1 tablespoonful of lemon

juice at 15-minute intervals. This is to be started in the evening after

fasting from lunch time, and the gallstones are expected to be passed out

within 24 to 48 hours.

This form of treatment has been largely promoted by non-physicians, but a

doctor from Canada (Kotkas L.J.) has reported that 95% of cases he saw this

treatment used on passed out gallstones.

This treatment is non-invasive, and numerous stones measuring up to 15 mm

could be passed out. As the olive oil cure could perhaps prove to be a

relatively inexpensive alternative to costly conventional drug treatments,

it is suggested that controlled and supervised studies could be considered

to explore the safety and efficacy of this mode of treatment for gallstones.

=============================================================

=================================================================

gallstones

From: " ngwjuk " < ngwj@... >

Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 22:53:10 -0000

Subject: Laboratory test result

Reply-gallstones

Hi everyone, I haven't posted in a while, but some of you may

remember that I have a friend who is a hospital doctor who offered to

take a couple of the stones I got out by flushing, and get them

tested in his lab. He was half expecting them to refuse because I

wasn't a patient at the hospital, but no problem! They were quite

interested. The reason it has taken so long is because they are not

usually asked to analyse gallstones. Normally they get to see them

in gall-bladders that have been surgically removed when it is obvious

what they are. This meant that they had to order some special

chemicals.

However, I have now just had the results back and these confirm to no

great surprise on my part (I've always been a 'believer') but also to

my considerabe relief (I've also had that little nagging doubt) that

the samples I provided were definitely gallstones - 100% certain!

To my surprise they contained no bilirubin, but they did contain lots

of cholesterol. They were very keen to stress that there was

absolutely no doubt about the analysis, it had been carried out very

carefully and thoroughly.

The work was done by a consultant bio-chemist at a National Health

Service (NHS) Bio-chemistry Laboratory in Scotland.

I feel pretty jubilant at this news - I hope it finally puts paid to

the theories floating around that what we get out is just soap or

gobs of olive oil. Of course it won't stop the malicious doubters

who will probably insist that I have made the whole thing up, or else

that I sneaked into a morgue and stole the stones from a corpse, or

some such nonsense. However, I can tell you all that right now I

feel great as I move onto a new regime of twice-a-year flushing for

the rest of my life!

Keep on flushing! Nick

=======================================================

=================================================================

From: " lin "

Date: Mon Apr 16, 2001 3:49 pm

Subject: Re: Gallbladder Questions?

For what it's worth.I had a x-ray,two ultrasounds ,1 CT and a hyda

scan. My DOCTOR said " you have no gallbladder problems, so there's nothing

that I can do for your pain " .I had lost 52 lbs in less than 6 weeks from 4

surgeries and 6 debridements as a result of an incompetent DOCTOR.And I

found out later from the Harvard medical web site that this is what caused

my GB problems.Any way, after the " hydascan " , I came home in a lot of pain

and found Dr.'s protocol for Gallstones and I passed over 80 stones the

following two days.My DOCTOR does not believe it, even after seeing

them!!Since then,with the help from some of these " good people " from the GB

web site, I have passed over 300 stones that wasn't there and when I watch

what I eat I feel so much better!!!.

I am not telling you to do this. This is my experience.

Good Luck,

=================================================================

=================================================================

Subject: 3rd flush results

From: < <mailto:no email>no email > |

<http://curezone.com/forums/fd.asp?f=73 & m=>Show All messages posted

by |

Date: 14:26 May 31 2002 (07:26 May 31 2002) R Recommended Message!

Hi everyone,

Just to fill you in. My first flush produced 1000's of stones. I felt

great afterwards - all of my allergies disappeared and constipation and gas

was better than it had been in years. Also my shoulder pain went away

overnight. After 3 weeks I was getting all of these problems back. I

flushed again and this time produced 20 or so large stones and a couple of

100 smaller ones. Again symptoms disappeared. I saved some of the stones

and finally got around to testing them in a UV spectrophotometer. This is

not a definitive test however I did see a major peak at 450 nm where

cholesterol absorbs. I'm relatively sure that bile salts don't absorb in

this region (although I can't be certain without a sample of bile

salts). The control sample was grapefruit juice, olive oil and epsom salts

and I didn't see a peak at 450. To the none scientists out there this is

almost proof that these are gallstones. Just one more test to do and I

will try and do that soon. It has now been 3 weeks since my last flush and

my gallbladder feel full and my symptoms are back. I will flush this

weekend. Does anyone know if it's typical to feel full with these things,

because I don't think it's my imagination.

Thanks

=========================================================

=========================================================

Subject: more on saponification (see my post below)

From: < <mailto:vryhof@...>vryhof@... > |

<http://curezone.com/forums/fd.asp?f=73 & m=>Show All messages posted

by |

Date: 00:20 Jun 02 2002 (17:20 Jun 01 2002) R Recommended Message!

And once the oil and alkali is mixed, it goes through a gel stage which

produces temps upwards of 150 degrees F. This would be pretty effective in

rendering a large portion of your digestive system into a mass of nearly

cooked meat. So, to get it straight, if olive oil could possibly saponify

in the human body, these things must and will occur.

1. The stomach produces enough alkali (without first producing it's

regular acid) to saponify.

2. The oil and alkali are brought together only when the temp of both is

around 110 degrees F. and is maintained above 100 degrees to produce the

gel phase.

3. The resulting mixture then reaches the gel stage and effectively cooks

your intestines.

4. You die as a result of the cooked intestines.

NUFF SAID?

Check out these sites about actual saponification of fats including olive oil.

http://www.soapnuts.com/indexsoap.html

http://www.soapnuts.com/indexoils.html (tells the properties of olive oil

in regards to saponification)

There are more. In my experience, you can not make a good solid soaplike

substance out of olive oil at all. Not to mention that putting it with an

acidic substance such as fruit juice of any kind would complicate the

process even more.

Do a search of any soap making site and look for more of the same.

Now, how about a new theory for why they aren't stones???? 'cause this one

is getting old. Doing one cleanse is not a cure all and it seems that many

of the people who post this garbage about saponified oil have only done one

cleanse and were disppointed that they weren't cured. I have never done a

cleanse, though I will doing one as soon as I complete my bowel cleanse

(this week actually) and I know it will take more than one before I get rid

of the junk I am carrying.

Ok, must go now, before smoke comes out my ears.....lol

=========================================================

=========================================================

Subject: My testimony

From: Cullison <

<mailto:JDCullison@...>JDCullison@... > |

<http://curezone.com/forums/fd.asp?f=73 & m=+Cullison>Show All messages

posted by Cullison |

Date: 04:58 Aug 21 2002 (21:58 Aug 20) R Recommended Message!

When I started having gall bladder attacks, I passed large stones. Big

ones. I saw what they looked like. I was not doing flushes at the

time. I didn't consume olive oil. I didn't consume Epsom salt. It hurt

like nothing I'd ever experienced. But I *did* pass the gall stones, and I

found them in my excrement. They scracthed on the way out.

When I started doing liver flushes, I initially didn't get any large

stones. My first two flushes resulted in smaller, tan, Tic-Tac-sized

stones, plus green, waxy " bile balls " , plus " chaffe " .

My third liver flush produced green balls plus bona fide gall stones, just

like the ones I had passed, with much pain, a year earlier.

Now, I don't know what the green balls are. I don't know what the smaller,

Tic-Tac-sized stones are (they are hard). But I know darn well what the

gall stones I passed were, both last year and this year, and I know that

the gall stones that I passed this year were done painlessly, during the flush.

I have consumed a lot of fat, both animal and vegetable, in my life

time. I have been on programs which required me to consume tablespoonfuls

of oil at a time, which I would help get down by consuming orange juice

(sounds kinda like olive oil plus grapefruit juice, no?). Not once did I

ever notice anything unusual about my stool during those programs.

Beyond this, my wife makes all of our soap. She makes it using olive oil

(plus other oils). In order to get oil to turn to soap, high,

life-terminating temperatures are required. Oils and fats just don't

become soap just because you put the chemical ingredients together.

discussed a lot of this earlier. If these were in fact " soap balls " ,

then they should be sudsy. They are not. I've tested them, too, and

they're kinda waxy, kinda dough-y, kinda jelly. They are not sudsy.

Soap, by the way, is both water soluble and fat soluble, which is why it

works. With all the water and " sloshing " that goes on in your intestines,

which is allegedly the basis for this " chemical process " which " makes

soap " , the soap should dissolve. Leave soap (real, home made soap) in

water some time and see how long it remains solid or " ball shaped " . Then

slosh it around some with your hand and see how long it maintains its " bar "

(or " ball " ) shape.

While there may be some truth to the idea that the oil consumed results in

some of the byproducts that we find, there is too much evidence --

personal, I've-seen-it evidence -- which demonstrates that this process

does in fact purge gall stones and clean out the liver.

We had one guy come here recently and tell us that the liver flush was a

" good thing " , even though all we were doing was turning oil into soap

internally. (Yet why don't people who eat lots of animal fat -- which

makes a much more durable soap -- produce tons of soapy material?) In

other words, even though we were all fooling ourselves, it was still

somehow " beneficial " .

To put it more plainly: he was covertly trying to undermine the liver

flush. I say " covertly " because his agreeing that liver flushing was a

" good thing " was his way of trying to be " in " .

I've seen this behavior far too many times, in lots of different

areas. EVERY viewpoint offered on the Internet which differs in any way

from " medical-worshipping modern-science-is-the-only-answer atheist " will

invariably have someone show up who cannot sleep at night knowing that the

viewpoint exists, and this someone will do everything in his power to prove

how wrong it is. Surprising though it may seem, such people exist. Every

viewpoint which doesn't match his own is wrong, and he'll pick up some

particular viewpoint to rail against. This attack becomes the focal point

of his life. *NO* amount of rational explanation can change his mind.

Listen. You have to decide for yourself whether or not liver flushing is

the route for you. You have to decide if you believe what we're telling

you or not. Try it for yourself and you be the judge. And if you

ultimately decide that we're all a bunch of lunatics, then so be it. You

won't hurt my feelings.

=--=

=========================================================

=========================================================

Agnes

[Guest guest]

Again, thank you for your useless suggestion!

--- Agnes <agnes@...> wrote: > At 21:45

11.04.2003 -0400, you wrote:

> >Thank you for your useless suggestion!

>

>

> Xue-Feng,

>

> if you are a scientist, why don't you make a

> research, and then publish it

> in a " scientific publication " ?

> Why all people expect someone else to do job for

> them?

>

> There are 1254 people in this list, more then enough

> for all sorts of

> statistical research!

> There are over 13533 messages, and at least 5% of

> them are anecdotal

> evidence, good enough for research.

>

> Question for you:

> Would any form of statistic give you 100% accurate

> prediction on what

> experience you may have with liver flush?

> The answer .... NO.

>

> Statistics can't predict future!

>

> In the end, it is YOU, it is YOUR body, and it is

> YOUR experience, and

> there, on that level, no science matters much, and

> no science can protect

> you from any good or bad outcome of " this

> experiment " .

>

> If you are looking for science, good place to look

> for are " scientific

> publications " or books.

>

> Here are few interesting messages and articles,

> unfortunately, they are not

> science, just anecdotal evidence, like several

> thousands of

> stories reported in this form, so, it may not be

> of any help for you who

> want to read it from a " scientific publications " ,

> and I am sure you will

> not be " helped " by reading them ... so just don't

> read ...

>

>

==================================================================

>

> There is a story reported in The Lancet, medical

> journal.

> " Apple Juice and the Chemical-Contact Softening of

> Gallstones, " Dekkers R,

> Lancet, December 18/25, 1999;354:2171. #34484.

> Lancet December 18/25, 1999 354:2171

>

http://www.thelancet.com/journal/vol354/iss9196/full/llan.354.9196.correspondenc\

e.2464.1

> http://www.thelancet.com/

>

>

> Gallbladder Surgery Alternative

>

> The Lancet reported the use of one quart of pure

> apple juice for one week.

> After one full week of the apple juice one cup of

> olive oil was used just

> before going to bed. The person was instructed to

> lay on their left side

> during the night.

>

> This is an anecdotal case report of a female who,

> for 1 week, consumed 1

> liter of apple juice daily and, on the seventh day,

> 1 cup of olive oil

> before going to bed, resulting in documented

> cholesterol stones found in

> her stools.

>

=================================================================

>

=================================================================

>

>

> quote from Claude M. , author of " Are you

> 'Stoned'? "

> To quote from Dr :

>

> " To clarify the situation and eliminate such

> questions, I sent a sample of

> gall stones to a medical analysis lab run by a Ph.D.

> who heads up the Science

> Department at Texas Woman's University in Denton.

> He ran the necessary tests "

>

> His analysis of the stone sample I sent was 91%

> cholesterol and the rest was

> bile salts, water and inert ingredients. In other

> words, the sample had the

> chemical contents of gall stones. And the report

> clearly states it was gall

> stones " .

>

=================================================================

>

=================================================================

>

>

> Story From:

>

http://www.healthlibrary.com/reading/rebello/pg39.htm

>

>

>

> Olive Oil Treatment for Gallstones

> by Dr. D. Koh

>

> Dept. of Social Medicine and Public Health

> National University of Singapore, Lower Kent Ridge

> Road, Singapore 0511.

>

> Koh reports here a case of spontaneous passage of

> multiple cholesterol

> gall-stones after self-treatment with olive oil and

> lemon juice.

>

> It is estimated that gallstones are present in

> approximately 15% of adult

> females and 6% of adult males, and its prevalence

> increases with age.

> Although it is generally agreed that there is a need

> for surgical

> treatment, in patients with cholelithiasis who

> develop complications, the

> treatment of 'silent stones' is controversial.

>

> At present, the application of drug treatment of

> cholelithiasis is

> relatively expensive and limited, usually for those

> unfit for surgery, with

> small radiolucent stones, and without history of

> complications.

>

>

> Other methods of treatment of gall stones have also

> been described. Kurtz

> and Classen have reported that treatment for common

> bile duct stones may

> include endoscopic removal and lithotripsy, and

> gallstone dissolution by

> irrigation procedures.

>

>

> CASE REPORT

> The patient, a 32-year old Indian male, insurance

> salesman, had a 3-year

> history of epigastric pain and colicky right

> hypochondrial pain whenever he

> took fatty meals. Physical examination was

> unremarkable and a barium meal

> study showed no evidence of gastro-oesophageal

> reflux or hiatus hernia, and

> no evidence of gastric or duodenal ulcer. However,

> the plain abdominal

> X-ray revealed multiple radio-opaque gallstones.

>

> The patient was advised surgery for cholelithiasis,

> but was not

> enthusiastic about the idea. He returned the

> following day with news that

> he had attempted a self-cure for the gallstones

> using olive oil and lemon

> juice. According to him, after fasting from noon, he

> took one pint of olive

> oil and lemon juice at 7 p.m. He then went to sleep

> on his right side. At

> about 2 - 3 a.m., the following morning, he felt a

> churning sensation in

> the abdomen. At 5 a.m. he passed out oily stools

> which he collected in a

> strainer. Upon washing the stools, he found numerous

> smooth stones.

>

> Analysis of two of the stones showed them to be

> greenish, smooth and soft,

> measuring 15 x 12 x 5 mm and 10 x 6 x 3 mm,

> respectively.

>

>

_________________________________________________________

> The stones were found to consist entirely of

> cholesterol.

>

_________________________________________________________

>

>

>

> TREATMENT

>

> P.Airola in his book How to Get Well has described

> an 'oil cure' for

> removal of gallstones, using raw natural unrefined

> vegetable oils of olive,

> sunflower or walnut, while has prescribed a

> specific dosage of 1

> pint of olive oil and the juice of 8 to 9 lemons.

> The patient is required

> to take 4 tablespoonfuls of olive oil followed by 1

> tablespoonful

=== message truncated ===

______________________________________________________________________

Post your free ad now! http://personals..ca

[Guest guest]

>---------posted by braddgood

>To those who want scientific evidence that epsom salts relax:

>

>This is so simple. Go to the grocery store. Buy epsom salts. Read

>on the side of the box that it can be taken internally. Take a

>tablespoon of this stuff that is approved for internal use. Not

>long afterwords, see if you feel relaxed.

I think some readers may not have realized that braddgood was being ironic

and did not expect to be taken seriously.

>If you are afraid to take epsom salts when it states right on the

>box that you can use it for a laxative, and you need scientific

>evidence, then you are just too cautious. In that case I would

>advise going to your MD and following their orders. Alternative

>treatments are not for those who need so much scientific evidence.

He/she was trying to kid you as if to say that alternative-medicine

believers are stupid people. She was merely being ironic, I am sure.