Guest guest Posted May 8, 2006 Report Share Posted May 8, 2006 It has been a long time since I have written to this group. I am looking for help. My DH has finally agreed that Low Test. might be the cause of some of his problems. Now just to give you some idea as to what is going on - he has almost all the symptoms listen in The Testosterone Syndrome book. He has almost all the symptoms listed in the files on this site. He has been tested and all three times it was under 300 for his free T. His current Endo said, " I believe your testosterone is attaching to the protein so we are just going to call this a case closed and do nothing. " Talk about wanting to pull my hair out! Anyway - his GP was concerned about his low T levels and that is why he sent him to the endo. He did research on this himself and felt it needed to be dealt with. He has been trying to regulate his thyroid, his cholesterol and his bilirubin levels and after the research he did felt that the low T was probably adding to the problem. So I am pleading with his GP for help. If anyone can give me some ideas on WHAT information I could send him that would be compelling I would appreciate it. Right now the package consists of a letter, the AACE information and The Testosterone Syndrome book. Any other suggestions? I want to jump on this while DH is willing! Thanks again! Amy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2006 Report Share Posted May 8, 2006 Hi Amy, Everything you need for his Dr. is at Dr. 's site Dr. has put this out on the web free to help men and there Dr.'s test and treat low t. Go to www.allthingsmale.com and read at the bottom of the site TRT: A Recipe for Success and his HCG Update. If your Dr. feels he needs help Dr. will work with him over the Phone. Hope this helps. Phil Amy <apowers0900@...> wrote: It has been a long time since I have written to this group. I am looking for help. My DH has finally agreed that Low Test. might be the cause of some of his problems. Now just to give you some idea as to what is going on - he has almost all the symptoms listen in The Testosterone Syndrome book. He has almost all the symptoms listed in the files on this site. He has been tested and all three times it was under 300 for his free T. His current Endo said, " I believe your testosterone is attaching to the protein so we are just going to call this a case closed and do nothing. " Talk about wanting to pull my hair out! Anyway - his GP was concerned about his low T levels and that is why he sent him to the endo. He did research on this himself and felt it needed to be dealt with. He has been trying to regulate his thyroid, his cholesterol and his bilirubin levels and after the research he did felt that the low T was probably adding to the problem. So I am pleading with his GP for help. If anyone can give me some ideas on WHAT information I could send him that would be compelling I would appreciate it. Right now the package consists of a letter, the AACE information and The Testosterone Syndrome book. Any other suggestions? I want to jump on this while DH is willing! Thanks again! Amy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2006 Report Share Posted May 8, 2006 Amy, It's hard to give advice when there's no post of his lab test results with reference ranges. Since you seem knowledgeable of these tests it would be good to know his Total T, Free T, Bio-T, SHBG, Albumin, E2 (Estradiol), LH, FST, TSH, Free T3, Free T4, liver function tests, lipids and any other tests he's had. Free T under 300 doesn't really give the full picture without the reference range for that test or without any of the other tests that need to be done. You mention protein binding as being a potential problem but I would be curious to know what his T levels are along with his SHBG and Albumin before making that determination. With this information we might be able to give you a better response and argument to your docs about his situation. You mention his trying to regulate thyroid...does he have a thyroid problem? What were his thyroid test results? You also mention cholesterol and bilirubin regulation...does he have a history of liver disease? Liver disease can be a cause of hypogonadism or elevated levels of protein in the blood such as SHBG and Albumin. Again, it would be interesting to see what his SHBG and Albumin tested at and what was the result of any liver function tests. It would be better to get the full picture before giving our impressions of what could be wrong overall. ASaxon > > It has been a long time since I have written to this group. I am > looking for help. My DH has finally agreed that Low Test. might be > the cause of some of his problems. > > Now just to give you some idea as to what is going on - he has > almost all the symptoms listen in The Testosterone Syndrome book. > He has almost all the symptoms listed in the files on this site. > > He has been tested and all three times it was under 300 for his free > T. His current Endo said, " I believe your testosterone is attaching > to the protein so we are just going to call this a case closed and > do nothing. " Talk about wanting to pull my hair out! > > Anyway - his GP was concerned about his low T levels and that is why > he sent him to the endo. He did research on this himself and felt > it needed to be dealt with. He has been trying to regulate his > thyroid, his cholesterol and his bilirubin levels and after the > research he did felt that the low T was probably adding to the > problem. > > So I am pleading with his GP for help. If anyone can give me some > ideas on WHAT information I could send him that would be compelling > I would appreciate it. Right now the package consists of a letter, > the AACE information and The Testosterone Syndrome book. > > Any other suggestions? I want to jump on this while DH is willing! > > Thanks again! > Amy > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2006 Report Share Posted May 9, 2006 I wish I could give you the test results but no one will run them. All that has been taken is his Total T and once a Free T. This all started back in March of 2005 (the testing that is). He has had an issue with his thyroid since 1998. His bilirubin has been high for a while but they are just now deciding something should be done about it. His cholesterol has been high since 2003 and he has been on meds since then. For his thyroid I don't have the test results - I just know that each time he goes into see the Dr. he comes home with a different script (as in increase or decrease). His cholesterol meds get changed about ever 6 months. He will increase the med - be doing great at month three and then by month six he is right back where he began (levels that is). His bilirubin - nothing has been done yet - they have just been monitoring his levels but we have not heard a thing yet as to what the levels are at (I do know it is hyper). We have gone through all the Endo's here in our town and DH isn't really wanting to have to travel so I am hoping to be able to get our GP to help in some way. Thanks for letting me know you can't give any other suggestion without that info though. I do appreciate it. Amy On 5/9/06, asaxon67 <no_reply > wrote: > > Amy, > > It's hard to give advice when there's no post of his lab test results > with reference ranges. Since you seem knowledgeable of these tests it > would be good to know his Total T, Free T, Bio-T, SHBG, Albumin, E2 > (Estradiol), LH, FST, TSH, Free T3, Free T4, liver function tests, > lipids and any other tests he's had. Free T under 300 doesn't really > give the full picture without the reference range for that test or > without any of the other tests that need to be done. > > You mention protein binding as being a potential problem but I would > be curious to know what his T levels are along with his SHBG and > Albumin before making that determination. With this information we > might be able to give you a better response and argument to your docs > about his situation. > > You mention his trying to regulate thyroid...does he have a thyroid > problem? What were his thyroid test results? > > You also mention cholesterol and bilirubin regulation...does he have a > history of liver disease? Liver disease can be a cause of > hypogonadism or elevated levels of protein in the blood such as SHBG > and Albumin. Again, it would be interesting to see what his SHBG and > Albumin tested at and what was the result of any liver function tests. > > It would be better to get the full picture before giving our > impressions of what could be wrong overall. > > ASaxon > > > > > > It has been a long time since I have written to this group. I am > > looking for help. My DH has finally agreed that Low Test. might be > > the cause of some of his problems. > > > > Now just to give you some idea as to what is going on - he has > > almost all the symptoms listen in The Testosterone Syndrome book. > > He has almost all the symptoms listed in the files on this site. > > > > He has been tested and all three times it was under 300 for his free > > T. His current Endo said, " I believe your testosterone is attaching > > to the protein so we are just going to call this a case closed and > > do nothing. " Talk about wanting to pull my hair out! > > > > Anyway - his GP was concerned about his low T levels and that is why > > he sent him to the endo. He did research on this himself and felt > > it needed to be dealt with. He has been trying to regulate his > > thyroid, his cholesterol and his bilirubin levels and after the > > research he did felt that the low T was probably adding to the > > problem. > > > > So I am pleading with his GP for help. If anyone can give me some > > ideas on WHAT information I could send him that would be compelling > > I would appreciate it. Right now the package consists of a letter, > > the AACE information and The Testosterone Syndrome book. > > > > Any other suggestions? I want to jump on this while DH is willing! > > > > Thanks again! > > Amy > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2006 Report Share Posted May 9, 2006 Amy, I'd be very surprised if in light of a high bilirubin level that the docs did not run full liver function tests. The first thing I'd do is call all your docs and get your test results from all your previous tests. Some tests are more valuable than others for diagnosis purposes but you should have them all. I have all my blood work put on a spreadsheet so I can see my whole history so it's easy to detect trends. You should get his blood work for your own records and you should ask your docs for any future bloodwork results as well. Well, unfortunately if DH wants to get well he'll need to start taking some responsibility for getting tested and treated for whatever is ailing him. If that requires some travel to get tested then it needs to be done. Whatever his underlying problem is he needs to figure it out or it will likely only get worse and at some point may be so far advanced by the time it's discovered that it might not be curable or treatable. I know someone who had severe sleep apnea but failed for years to get it diagnosed. It was hard watching this person continue to damage their body just because they didn't want to face their medical illnesses. Good luck! ASaxon > > > > > > It has been a long time since I have written to this group. I am > > > looking for help. My DH has finally agreed that Low Test. might be > > > the cause of some of his problems. > > > > > > Now just to give you some idea as to what is going on - he has > > > almost all the symptoms listen in The Testosterone Syndrome book. > > > He has almost all the symptoms listed in the files on this site. > > > > > > He has been tested and all three times it was under 300 for his free > > > T. His current Endo said, " I believe your testosterone is attaching > > > to the protein so we are just going to call this a case closed and > > > do nothing. " Talk about wanting to pull my hair out! > > > > > > Anyway - his GP was concerned about his low T levels and that is why > > > he sent him to the endo. He did research on this himself and felt > > > it needed to be dealt with. He has been trying to regulate his > > > thyroid, his cholesterol and his bilirubin levels and after the > > > research he did felt that the low T was probably adding to the > > > problem. > > > > > > So I am pleading with his GP for help. If anyone can give me some > > > ideas on WHAT information I could send him that would be compelling > > > I would appreciate it. Right now the package consists of a letter, > > > the AACE information and The Testosterone Syndrome book. > > > > > > Any other suggestions? I want to jump on this while DH is willing! > > > > > > Thanks again! > > > Amy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2006 Report Share Posted May 9, 2006 Provide the results and ranges for both Total T and Free T. " Amy L. Powers " <apowers0900@...> wrote: I wish I could give you the test results but no one will run them. All that has been taken is his Total T and once a Free T. This all started back in March of 2005 (the testing that is). He has had an issue with his thyroid since 1998. His bilirubin has been high for a while but they are just now deciding something should be done about it. His cholesterol has been high since 2003 and he has been on meds since then. For his thyroid I don't have the test results - I just know that each time he goes into see the Dr. he comes home with a different script (as in increase or decrease). His cholesterol meds get changed about ever 6 months. He will increase the med - be doing great at month three and then by month six he is right back where he began (levels that is). His bilirubin - nothing has been done yet - they have just been monitoring his levels but we have not heard a thing yet as to what the levels are at (I do know it is hyper). We have gone through all the Endo's here in our town and DH isn't really wanting to have to travel so I am hoping to be able to get our GP to help in some way. Thanks for letting me know you can't give any other suggestion without that info though. I do appreciate it. Amy On 5/9/06, asaxon67 <no_reply > wrote: > > Amy, > > It's hard to give advice when there's no post of his lab test results > with reference ranges. Since you seem knowledgeable of these tests it > would be good to know his Total T, Free T, Bio-T, SHBG, Albumin, E2 > (Estradiol), LH, FST, TSH, Free T3, Free T4, liver function tests, > lipids and any other tests he's had. Free T under 300 doesn't really > give the full picture without the reference range for that test or > without any of the other tests that need to be done. > > You mention protein binding as being a potential problem but I would > be curious to know what his T levels are along with his SHBG and > Albumin before making that determination. With this information we > might be able to give you a better response and argument to your docs > about his situation. > > You mention his trying to regulate thyroid...does he have a thyroid > problem? What were his thyroid test results? > > You also mention cholesterol and bilirubin regulation...does he have a > history of liver disease? Liver disease can be a cause of > hypogonadism or elevated levels of protein in the blood such as SHBG > and Albumin. Again, it would be interesting to see what his SHBG and > Albumin tested at and what was the result of any liver function tests. > > It would be better to get the full picture before giving our > impressions of what could be wrong overall. > > ASaxon > > > > > > It has been a long time since I have written to this group. I am > > looking for help. My DH has finally agreed that Low Test. might be > > the cause of some of his problems. > > > > Now just to give you some idea as to what is going on - he has > > almost all the symptoms listen in The Testosterone Syndrome book. > > He has almost all the symptoms listed in the files on this site. > > > > He has been tested and all three times it was under 300 for his free > > T. His current Endo said, " I believe your testosterone is attaching > > to the protein so we are just going to call this a case closed and > > do nothing. " Talk about wanting to pull my hair out! > > > > Anyway - his GP was concerned about his low T levels and that is why > > he sent him to the endo. He did research on this himself and felt > > it needed to be dealt with. He has been trying to regulate his > > thyroid, his cholesterol and his bilirubin levels and after the > > research he did felt that the low T was probably adding to the > > problem. > > > > So I am pleading with his GP for help. If anyone can give me some > > ideas on WHAT information I could send him that would be compelling > > I would appreciate it. Right now the package consists of a letter, > > the AACE information and The Testosterone Syndrome book. > > > > Any other suggestions? I want to jump on this while DH is willing! > > > > Thanks again! > > Amy > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2006 Report Share Posted May 9, 2006 Total T has been 245 (May of 2005), 256 (July 2005) and 274 (August 2005). Free T was 24 (May 2005) On 5/9/06, Jack <rockin813@...> wrote: > > Provide the results and ranges for both Total T and Free T. > > " Amy L. Powers " <apowers0900@...> wrote: I wish I could give you > the test results but no one will run them. All that > > has been taken is his Total T and once a Free T. > > This all started back in March of 2005 (the testing that is). > > He has had an issue with his thyroid since 1998. His bilirubin has been > high for a while but they are just now deciding something should be done > about it. His cholesterol has been high since 2003 and he has been on > meds > since then. > > For his thyroid I don't have the test results - I just know that each time > he goes into see the Dr. he comes home with a different script (as in > increase or decrease). His cholesterol meds get changed about ever 6 > months. He will increase the med - be doing great at month three and then > by month six he is right back where he began (levels that is). His > bilirubin - nothing has been done yet - they have just been monitoring his > levels but we have not heard a thing yet as to what the levels are at (I > do > know it is hyper). > > We have gone through all the Endo's here in our town and DH isn't really > wanting to have to travel so I am hoping to be able to get our GP to help > in > some way. > > Thanks for letting me know you can't give any other suggestion without > that > info though. I do appreciate it. > > Amy > > > On 5/9/06, asaxon67 <no_reply > wrote: > > > > Amy, > > > > It's hard to give advice when there's no post of his lab test results > > with reference ranges. Since you seem knowledgeable of these tests it > > would be good to know his Total T, Free T, Bio-T, SHBG, Albumin, E2 > > (Estradiol), LH, FST, TSH, Free T3, Free T4, liver function tests, > > lipids and any other tests he's had. Free T under 300 doesn't really > > give the full picture without the reference range for that test or > > without any of the other tests that need to be done. > > > > You mention protein binding as being a potential problem but I would > > be curious to know what his T levels are along with his SHBG and > > Albumin before making that determination. With this information we > > might be able to give you a better response and argument to your docs > > about his situation. > > > > You mention his trying to regulate thyroid...does he have a thyroid > > problem? What were his thyroid test results? > > > > You also mention cholesterol and bilirubin regulation...does he have a > > history of liver disease? Liver disease can be a cause of > > hypogonadism or elevated levels of protein in the blood such as SHBG > > and Albumin. Again, it would be interesting to see what his SHBG and > > Albumin tested at and what was the result of any liver function tests. > > > > It would be better to get the full picture before giving our > > impressions of what could be wrong overall. > > > > ASaxon > > > > > > > > > > It has been a long time since I have written to this group. I am > > > looking for help. My DH has finally agreed that Low Test. might be > > > the cause of some of his problems. > > > > > > Now just to give you some idea as to what is going on - he has > > > almost all the symptoms listen in The Testosterone Syndrome book. > > > He has almost all the symptoms listed in the files on this site. > > > > > > He has been tested and all three times it was under 300 for his free > > > T. His current Endo said, " I believe your testosterone is attaching > > > to the protein so we are just going to call this a case closed and > > > do nothing. " Talk about wanting to pull my hair out! > > > > > > Anyway - his GP was concerned about his low T levels and that is why > > > he sent him to the endo. He did research on this himself and felt > > > it needed to be dealt with. He has been trying to regulate his > > > thyroid, his cholesterol and his bilirubin levels and after the > > > research he did felt that the low T was probably adding to the > > > problem. > > > > > > So I am pleading with his GP for help. If anyone can give me some > > > ideas on WHAT information I could send him that would be compelling > > > I would appreciate it. Right now the package consists of a letter, > > > the AACE information and The Testosterone Syndrome book. > > > > > > Any other suggestions? I want to jump on this while DH is willing! > > > > > > Thanks again! > > > Amy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2006 Report Share Posted May 9, 2006 One thing to remember with the book is that the part about shots is outdated. It is my understanding from what others have said here that Dr. Shippen now uses shots. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2006 Report Share Posted May 9, 2006 Seriously - I don't remember what he said about shots in the book. It has been over a year since I have read it... I am just looking for our GP to have a better understanding about what could possibly be going on with my DH and finding someone or stressing to DH the importance of finding a Dr. who feels whatever is going on needs to be treated. I wasn't really looking for people to give me an idea as to what is wrong with DH - I have plenty of ideas on that. The issues for me is figuring out " what " to send to the GP to help light a fire under his butt. Thanks, Amy On 5/9/06, mdw1000 <mdw1000@...> wrote: > > One thing to remember with the book is that the part about shots is > outdated. It is my understanding from what others have said here that > Dr. Shippen now uses shots. > > Mark > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2006 Report Share Posted May 9, 2006 It looks low but without the reference ranges we can't say. Do you know what the reference ranges were for those tests? ASaxon > > > > > > > > It has been a long time since I have written to this group. I am > > > > looking for help. My DH has finally agreed that Low Test. might be > > > > the cause of some of his problems. > > > > > > > > Now just to give you some idea as to what is going on - he has > > > > almost all the symptoms listen in The Testosterone Syndrome book. > > > > He has almost all the symptoms listed in the files on this site. > > > > > > > > He has been tested and all three times it was under 300 for his free > > > > T. His current Endo said, " I believe your testosterone is attaching > > > > to the protein so we are just going to call this a case closed and > > > > do nothing. " Talk about wanting to pull my hair out! > > > > > > > > Anyway - his GP was concerned about his low T levels and that is why > > > > he sent him to the endo. He did research on this himself and felt > > > > it needed to be dealt with. He has been trying to regulate his > > > > thyroid, his cholesterol and his bilirubin levels and after the > > > > research he did felt that the low T was probably adding to the > > > > problem. > > > > > > > > So I am pleading with his GP for help. If anyone can give me some > > > > ideas on WHAT information I could send him that would be compelling > > > > I would appreciate it. Right now the package consists of a letter, > > > > the AACE information and The Testosterone Syndrome book. > > > > > > > > Any other suggestions? I want to jump on this while DH is willing! > > > > > > > > Thanks again! > > > > Amy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2006 Report Share Posted May 9, 2006 Total T levels provided...do you have the ranges that go with it? what was the 'normal' range? 241-847 ng/dl? makes a big difference...but regardless the numbers are low! " Amy L. Powers " <apowers0900@...> wrote: Total T has been 245 (May of 2005), 256 (July 2005) and 274 (August 2005). Free T was 24 (May 2005) On 5/9/06, Jack <rockin813@...> wrote: > > Provide the results and ranges for both Total T and Free T. > > " Amy L. Powers " <apowers0900@...> wrote: I wish I could give you > the test results but no one will run them. All that > > has been taken is his Total T and once a Free T. > > This all started back in March of 2005 (the testing that is). > > He has had an issue with his thyroid since 1998. His bilirubin has been > high for a while but they are just now deciding something should be done > about it. His cholesterol has been high since 2003 and he has been on > meds > since then. > > For his thyroid I don't have the test results - I just know that each time > he goes into see the Dr. he comes home with a different script (as in > increase or decrease). His cholesterol meds get changed about ever 6 > months. He will increase the med - be doing great at month three and then > by month six he is right back where he began (levels that is). His > bilirubin - nothing has been done yet - they have just been monitoring his > levels but we have not heard a thing yet as to what the levels are at (I > do > know it is hyper). > > We have gone through all the Endo's here in our town and DH isn't really > wanting to have to travel so I am hoping to be able to get our GP to help > in > some way. > > Thanks for letting me know you can't give any other suggestion without > that > info though. I do appreciate it. > > Amy > > > On 5/9/06, asaxon67 <no_reply > wrote: > > > > Amy, > > > > It's hard to give advice when there's no post of his lab test results > > with reference ranges. Since you seem knowledgeable of these tests it > > would be good to know his Total T, Free T, Bio-T, SHBG, Albumin, E2 > > (Estradiol), LH, FST, TSH, Free T3, Free T4, liver function tests, > > lipids and any other tests he's had. Free T under 300 doesn't really > > give the full picture without the reference range for that test or > > without any of the other tests that need to be done. > > > > You mention protein binding as being a potential problem but I would > > be curious to know what his T levels are along with his SHBG and > > Albumin before making that determination. With this information we > > might be able to give you a better response and argument to your docs > > about his situation. > > > > You mention his trying to regulate thyroid...does he have a thyroid > > problem? What were his thyroid test results? > > > > You also mention cholesterol and bilirubin regulation...does he have a > > history of liver disease? Liver disease can be a cause of > > hypogonadism or elevated levels of protein in the blood such as SHBG > > and Albumin. Again, it would be interesting to see what his SHBG and > > Albumin tested at and what was the result of any liver function tests. > > > > It would be better to get the full picture before giving our > > impressions of what could be wrong overall. > > > > ASaxon > > > > > > > > > > It has been a long time since I have written to this group. I am > > > looking for help. My DH has finally agreed that Low Test. might be > > > the cause of some of his problems. > > > > > > Now just to give you some idea as to what is going on - he has > > > almost all the symptoms listen in The Testosterone Syndrome book. > > > He has almost all the symptoms listed in the files on this site. > > > > > > He has been tested and all three times it was under 300 for his free > > > T. His current Endo said, " I believe your testosterone is attaching > > > to the protein so we are just going to call this a case closed and > > > do nothing. " Talk about wanting to pull my hair out! > > > > > > Anyway - his GP was concerned about his low T levels and that is why > > > he sent him to the endo. He did research on this himself and felt > > > it needed to be dealt with. He has been trying to regulate his > > > thyroid, his cholesterol and his bilirubin levels and after the > > > research he did felt that the low T was probably adding to the > > > problem. > > > > > > So I am pleading with his GP for help. If anyone can give me some > > > ideas on WHAT information I could send him that would be compelling > > > I would appreciate it. Right now the package consists of a letter, > > > the AACE information and The Testosterone Syndrome book. > > > > > > Any other suggestions? I want to jump on this while DH is willing! > > > > > > Thanks again! > > > Amy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2006 Report Share Posted May 9, 2006 > I wasn't really looking for people to give me an idea as to what is wrong > with DH - I have plenty of ideas on that. The issues for me is figuring out > " what " to send to the GP to help light a fire under his butt. Sounds like you've already set your mind that TRT is the solution. I'm not sure it is in your DH's case. You don't want to be on TRT unless you truly have primary or secondary hypogonadism or some other chronic and incurable disease that causes hypogonadism of which you only want to relieve symptoms but not cure the problem. TRT is almost always lifelong so it's a serious decision. Most people here are constantly dealing with artificially balancing a very complex hormonal system. If certain hormones are too high you feel like crap, if they're too low you feel like crap. If a primary hormone causes a metabolite hormone to go high or low you feel like crap. That's why it's always better to treat the underlying issues, if any, before going on TRT. This should always be the approach to TRT when possible. If there are no underlying conditions then good TRT treatment can work wonders, bad TRT treatment can make things worse as can masking an underlying condition with TRT which would only cause that underlying condition to get worse. If the underlying condition is being treated and there's nothing more that can be done for it and hypogonadism still is present then TRT could help with symptoms. With that said, if you're heart is set on TRT then I think the reference pmgamer gave you, namely, the AACE guidelines and Dr. Crisler's TRT document are good reads. The AACE guidelines will have the most weight when talking to a doctor because they're a recognized organization. But without more test results it will be hard to make arguments based on the AACE guidelines. That's why we were pushing for more tests because without them it's difficult for us to help you make an argument for TRT to your doctor. You posted some test results but you didn't include the reference ranges. All test results need to have the reference ranges posted as every lab can use different tests and thus have different ranges which would make the measured results mean different things. You're DH may very well have clinical hypogonadism but it may not be his primary problem, and given your previous posts I would doubt that it is. I'm concerned that he may have a more serious problem. Something tells me that you know this but are not willing to say exactly what it is, that's okay, but our advice is limited only by the amount of information we have. Good Luck! ASaxon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2006 Report Share Posted May 9, 2006 Aloha Amy! I joined this group almost a month ago if not a month+ and until then, I didn't even KNOW that " T " could have such a profound effect on so many functions of a mans body. I've been undergoing TRT for over a month but noticed major sexual differences right away (along with my wife who thinks I'm oversexed now! LOL!) However, and I'm serious about this, I had three failed spine surgeries that changed my life due to the Chronic Pain they caused. That pain has been minimised since TRT. I used to be in the worst case of suicidal depression and even made a couple of feeble attemps at it. That's gone now and I only experience what most would call " normal " depression, so I've started to taper off of Celexa WITH my docs blessings. I've had aches, pains and all that goes with aging (I'm only 50+) but the TRT is actually doing all the positive things it should. I love on a small island in Hawaii and there is no endo or Uro here but one comes over from Oahu once a month (for one day!). I can't make those as they conflict with my wife's schedule and I WANT her to be there. My Total or Free " T " was 84 and with a range of 290 being the lowest normal number, I was not a man any woman would want to be married to. But thanks to God's good graces for letting me meet the woman I married 27 years ago and who takes/took her vows seriously, she's " toughed it out " right along side me (damn near makes me cry just thinking about it!! ). So my GP or regular doc who takes care of everything except my Chronic Pain and depression said, To heck with seeing an Endo or Uro because your levels are so low they'd probably put you on " T " anyway " . He started me on " T " -depo-t 200mgs once every other week indefinately. I've said it before and I'll say it again, This may possibly be the best thing the medical profession has done for me since I became involved as a patient 9+ years ago. I know this doesn't help as far as something to take to your GP to prompt him to start your DH on " T " . I just wanted to let you know that not only do I enjoy being myself again, but my WIFE is too. It's been nothing but a win-win situation for the both of us. I sure hope someone gives you a link to something that could possibly persuade your GP into " going your way " . Tell hubby he won't regret it. Honestly! Aloha for now, Wayne > > > > One thing to remember with the book is that the part about shots is > > outdated. It is my understanding from what others have said here that > > Dr. Shippen now uses shots. > > > > Mark > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2006 Report Share Posted May 9, 2006 I have them for Total T: 240-950 I don't have the sheet on the Free T (I just have the one that I wrote all the info on and the other tests results are in the safe deposit box). On 5/9/06, Jack <rockin813@...> wrote: > > Total T levels provided...do you have the ranges that go with it? what > was the 'normal' range? 241-847 ng/dl? makes a big difference...but > regardless the numbers are low! > > " Amy L. Powers " <apowers0900@...> wrote: Total T has been 245 (May > of 2005), 256 (July 2005) and 274 (August 2005). > > Free T was 24 (May 2005) > > > > > On 5/9/06, Jack <rockin813@...> wrote: > > > > Provide the results and ranges for both Total T and Free T. > > > > " Amy L. Powers " <apowers0900@...> wrote: I wish I could give you > > the test results but no one will run them. All that > > > > has been taken is his Total T and once a Free T. > > > > This all started back in March of 2005 (the testing that is). > > > > He has had an issue with his thyroid since 1998. His bilirubin has been > > high for a while but they are just now deciding something should be done > > about it. His cholesterol has been high since 2003 and he has been on > > meds > > since then. > > > > For his thyroid I don't have the test results - I just know that each > time > > he goes into see the Dr. he comes home with a different script (as in > > increase or decrease). His cholesterol meds get changed about ever 6 > > months. He will increase the med - be doing great at month three and > then > > by month six he is right back where he began (levels that is). His > > bilirubin - nothing has been done yet - they have just been monitoring > his > > levels but we have not heard a thing yet as to what the levels are at (I > > do > > know it is hyper). > > > > We have gone through all the Endo's here in our town and DH isn't really > > wanting to have to travel so I am hoping to be able to get our GP to > help > > in > > some way. > > > > Thanks for letting me know you can't give any other suggestion without > > that > > info though. I do appreciate it. > > > > Amy > > > > > > On 5/9/06, asaxon67 <no_reply > wrote: > > > > > > Amy, > > > > > > It's hard to give advice when there's no post of his lab test results > > > with reference ranges. Since you seem knowledgeable of these tests it > > > would be good to know his Total T, Free T, Bio-T, SHBG, Albumin, E2 > > > (Estradiol), LH, FST, TSH, Free T3, Free T4, liver function tests, > > > lipids and any other tests he's had. Free T under 300 doesn't really > > > give the full picture without the reference range for that test or > > > without any of the other tests that need to be done. > > > > > > You mention protein binding as being a potential problem but I would > > > be curious to know what his T levels are along with his SHBG and > > > Albumin before making that determination. With this information we > > > might be able to give you a better response and argument to your docs > > > about his situation. > > > > > > You mention his trying to regulate thyroid...does he have a thyroid > > > problem? What were his thyroid test results? > > > > > > You also mention cholesterol and bilirubin regulation...does he have a > > > history of liver disease? Liver disease can be a cause of > > > hypogonadism or elevated levels of protein in the blood such as SHBG > > > and Albumin. Again, it would be interesting to see what his SHBG and > > > Albumin tested at and what was the result of any liver function tests. > > > > > > It would be better to get the full picture before giving our > > > impressions of what could be wrong overall. > > > > > > ASaxon > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It has been a long time since I have written to this group. I am > > > > looking for help. My DH has finally agreed that Low Test. might be > > > > the cause of some of his problems. > > > > > > > > Now just to give you some idea as to what is going on - he has > > > > almost all the symptoms listen in The Testosterone Syndrome book. > > > > He has almost all the symptoms listed in the files on this site. > > > > > > > > He has been tested and all three times it was under 300 for his free > > > > T. His current Endo said, " I believe your testosterone is attaching > > > > to the protein so we are just going to call this a case closed and > > > > do nothing. " Talk about wanting to pull my hair out! > > > > > > > > Anyway - his GP was concerned about his low T levels and that is why > > > > he sent him to the endo. He did research on this himself and felt > > > > it needed to be dealt with. He has been trying to regulate his > > > > thyroid, his cholesterol and his bilirubin levels and after the > > > > research he did felt that the low T was probably adding to the > > > > problem. > > > > > > > > So I am pleading with his GP for help. If anyone can give me some > > > > ideas on WHAT information I could send him that would be compelling > > > > I would appreciate it. Right now the package consists of a letter, > > > > the AACE information and The Testosterone Syndrome book. > > > > > > > > Any other suggestions? I want to jump on this while DH is willing! > > > > > > > > Thanks again! > > > > Amy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2006 Report Share Posted May 9, 2006 ASaxon, My heart is NOT set on any treatment - my heart is set on getting the Doctors to take the low T levels seriously. So it is attaching to the protein - or so he thinks - what is the solution for this? My DH has had some serious issues over the past few years and we have been to many specialists. Nothing has been determined but they all ask about his Low T levels and what is being done about it. The problem is - they are all the WRONG type of specialist and because of our current insurance they can do nothing. I don't mean to sound rude or anything - I just need help with whatever is going on. Want a history - I can give that but it isn't going to have blood draw levels because I don't have those readily at hand. In 1998 he went into the ER for breathing issues (he has asthma) and ended up in the hospital for his heart being in A-fibrillation (sorry I know that is spelled wrong). By the time he left there his heart was normal but they had found that he had hyperthyroidism as far back as 1988 when he had been in the ER. In 1999 his thyroid took a different angle and went to being a hypothyroidism due to his meds not being able to be regulated and it has been hypo since that point. Every Dr. visit his meds are changed because he is never within a normal range. In 2000 DH went for testing because his primary thought he had carpal tunnel. Did the tests and came back negative for that. They did an MRI and found a slight bulge in a disk in his neck but not enough to do surgery or worry about. The just assumed that the numbness in his fingers were caused by that (which has now been determined they were correct). In 2001 in counseling he admitted to having no interest in sex. He never had and it has always been a complaint of every women he has been with and that is why all of them have left him. In 2003 he started have issues with his right leg. It just wasn't working correctly. He was rolling the ankle on a regular basis and it kept on getting sprained. He spoke with his GP about the ankle weakness issue and his GP just kept on asking where the pain was and since there wasn't a pain it was never addressed. In 2004 he started to have muscle weakness further up his leg. At his annual appointment he brought up the leg issue with the same response as before but DH never pushed the matter. In 2005 at his annual appointment I went with him and addressed a ton of issues. DH has had numerous prostate infections and I found a link to that with low T levels and cancer. That on top of the lack of interest in sex, the lack of concentration on his part, always feeling as if he is in a fog, his is angry over the smallest things and doesn't express it well at all, he doesn't sleep well, his chol. is horrible, depression, his belly being huge, issues with his bladder control, his horrible self-esteem issues and so many other things - I decided addressing his T levels was a valid concern. By November 2005 we were finally in to see a neurologist and that long process has been started. They do not know what is wrong but they feel that he maybe have some nerve degeneration and muscle degeneration but they can't determine why. So yes there are huge things going on right now but in all honesty when I can't get answer out of Dr.'s as to " why " this or that and " how " do we take care of this or that - I get frustrated. My DH is so very overwhelmed right now with all that is going on that he feels like he is falling apart. He just takes what Dr.'s say at face value and he leaves it alone but I am not like that. These Dr.'s are not God - they do not have all the answers and they would be 100% better if they would just admit to that. Right now the only advocate my DH has is myself. I guess right now my hope is if I can get answers to some of this as to the why's or how's then I would probably feel so much better. I do not know what the underlying issues are but I want to know how we find out. Yet my problem is most; if not all of his Dr.'s say well that is this persons problem and I can't do a thing about it. So even if you can give me a list of test (which I wrote all those written early down) and a explanation as to why it should be done would be great. I know you are not Dr.'s on this board - I get that; but you are all living with a Low T level (or were living and are now treating) and so hearing from you guys helps. I don't mean to snap at anyone - I just feel as if I am swamped and surrounded by idiots. Thanks for listening, Amy On 5/9/06, asaxon67 <no_reply > wrote: > > > > I wasn't really looking for people to give me an idea as to what > is wrong > > with DH - I have plenty of ideas on that. The issues for me is > figuring out > > " what " to send to the GP to help light a fire under his butt. > > Sounds like you've already set your mind that TRT is the solution. > I'm not sure it is in your DH's case. You don't want to be on TRT > unless you truly have primary or secondary hypogonadism or some > other chronic and incurable disease that causes hypogonadism of > which you only want to relieve symptoms but not cure the problem. > TRT is almost always lifelong so it's a serious decision. Most > people here are constantly dealing with artificially balancing a > very complex hormonal system. If certain hormones are too high you > feel like crap, if they're too low you feel like crap. If a primary > hormone causes a metabolite hormone to go high or low you feel like > crap. That's why it's always better to treat the underlying issues, > if any, before going on TRT. This should always be the approach to > TRT when possible. > > If there are no underlying conditions then good TRT treatment can > work wonders, bad TRT treatment can make things worse as can masking > an underlying condition with TRT which would only cause that > underlying condition to get worse. If the underlying condition is > being treated and there's nothing more that can be done for it and > hypogonadism still is present then TRT could help with symptoms. > > With that said, if you're heart is set on TRT then I think the > reference pmgamer gave you, namely, the AACE guidelines and Dr. > Crisler's TRT document are good reads. The AACE guidelines will > have the most weight when talking to a doctor because they're a > recognized organization. But without more test results it will be > hard to make arguments based on the AACE guidelines. That's why we > were pushing for more tests because without them it's difficult for > us to help you make an argument for TRT to your doctor. > > You posted some test results but you didn't include the reference > ranges. All test results need to have the reference ranges posted > as every lab can use different tests and thus have different ranges > which would make the measured results mean different things. You're > DH may very well have clinical hypogonadism but it may not be his > primary problem, and given your previous posts I would doubt that it > is. I'm concerned that he may have a more serious problem. > Something tells me that you know this but are not willing to say > exactly what it is, that's okay, but our advice is limited only by > the amount of information we have. > > Good Luck! > > ASaxon > -- AVON Independent Sales Representative www.yourAVON.com/apowers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2006 Report Share Posted May 9, 2006 Aloha Amy! Well, now that you've probably scared off half the membership, LOL, I'm going to take a " stab " at it. aSaxon and the others were and ARE going by just the information you gave them. There was no way for us to guess what your DH's medical history for the past decade would've been without you doing just what you are or did. I STILL get the odd feeling that there is more to this than meets our eyes. Don't ask me why, just do. OK, for one thing, after nearly EIGHT years are his thyroid medications STILL being altered? Do you think it's just because the doc he sees gets hit up with the " latest " new drug to treat that and the doc feels an obligation to give it to him? How MANY doctors do you roughly guess he has seen over the years for various physical abnormalities. You mentioned this in your post: " In 2001 in counseling he admitted to having no interest in sex. He never had and it has always been a complaint of every women he has been with and that is why all of them have left him. " First off, I hear the frustration in your " voice " and DO understand it. I commend you as I do my own wife of 27 years for bearing with me until an answer is found. You are obviously more in love with your DH than any of the women in his previous relationships/marriage (s). Being that it took a counseling session to bring out his lack of libido, that tells me that you and he came close to also calling it off, but again, good for you for being there for him and being his advocate. Amy, I'd like to be frank with you as much as possible without sounding rude, crude or chauvinistic. Usually we (as you well know) are talking to other males and being a male allows up to use simpler terms more seriously and not get offended because we know it is a " man-to-man " talk. (Something tells me I don't have to walk on eggshells, but until you give us the signal (whatever that means), I/we don't know if we can ask you the same questions about certain aspects of his sexuality the same as if we were " talking " to him. A very good guage for having " normal " testosterone is sexual. Just as an example, if we were talking to him, we'd ask him if he is getting the regular nocturnal erections and/or morning erections that men with proper " T " do. Would you be able to answer that? How open are you and he with the topic of sex. Believe me, almost all of us here KNOW how important sex can be in a loving relationship. I used to tell the kids whenever they'd hear my wife and I making love that " as long as they hear that, it means that everything is OK with Mommy and Daddy. It's when you start NOT ever hearing those sounds you have to worry. " Honestly. I've also heard sex therapists say that " if things are OK in the bedroom, things are usually OK in the marriage " . HOWEVER, don't take that as a sign of him not loving you! My wife was actually slightly relieved to hear that it was a medical problem rather than an emotional one once my " T " was diagnosed under 100. I'm sure he loves you dearly and his frustration level, along with yours must be driving you both to your wits end. Is your DH the kind that thinks it isn't anyone else's business so he refuses to post here himself? I can understand his side and your side. All I'm trying to do here Amy is make sure that IF we do ask you questions and " talk " to you as if you were a MAN, that you won't get offended in ANY way. Personally, I can think of at least five questions regarding his sexual life that I'd like to know before saying anything else. But would a wife understand them? I only hope some of the above has made some sense. Aloha for now, Wayne > > > I wasn't really looking for people to give me an idea as to what > > is wrong > > > with DH - I have plenty of ideas on that. The issues for me is > > figuring out > > > " what " to send to the GP to help light a fire under his butt. > > > > Sounds like you've already set your mind that TRT is the solution. > > I'm not sure it is in your DH's case. You don't want to be on TRT > > unless you truly have primary or secondary hypogonadism or some > > other chronic and incurable disease that causes hypogonadism of > > which you only want to relieve symptoms but not cure the problem. > > TRT is almost always lifelong so it's a serious decision. Most > > people here are constantly dealing with artificially balancing a > > very complex hormonal system. If certain hormones are too high you > > feel like crap, if they're too low you feel like crap. If a primary > > hormone causes a metabolite hormone to go high or low you feel like > > crap. That's why it's always better to treat the underlying issues, > > if any, before going on TRT. This should always be the approach to > > TRT when possible. > > > > If there are no underlying conditions then good TRT treatment can > > work wonders, bad TRT treatment can make things worse as can masking > > an underlying condition with TRT which would only cause that > > underlying condition to get worse. If the underlying condition is > > being treated and there's nothing more that can be done for it and > > hypogonadism still is present then TRT could help with symptoms. > > > > With that said, if you're heart is set on TRT then I think the > > reference pmgamer gave you, namely, the AACE guidelines and Dr. > > Crisler's TRT document are good reads. The AACE guidelines will > > have the most weight when talking to a doctor because they're a > > recognized organization. But without more test results it will be > > hard to make arguments based on the AACE guidelines. That's why we > > were pushing for more tests because without them it's difficult for > > us to help you make an argument for TRT to your doctor. > > > > You posted some test results but you didn't include the reference > > ranges. All test results need to have the reference ranges posted > > as every lab can use different tests and thus have different ranges > > which would make the measured results mean different things. You're > > DH may very well have clinical hypogonadism but it may not be his > > primary problem, and given your previous posts I would doubt that it > > is. I'm concerned that he may have a more serious problem. > > Something tells me that you know this but are not willing to say > > exactly what it is, that's okay, but our advice is limited only by > > the amount of information we have. > > > > Good Luck! > > > > ASaxon > > > > -- > AVON Independent Sales Representative > www.yourAVON.com/apowers > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 Hey Wayne, I hope you got my E-mail. A quick search brought this up.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi? cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=10624501 & dopt=Abstract Being on Kadian and family will reduce LH and FSH enough to cause low T. It is a vicious circle, low T means your body falls apart, and your body falling apart causes you yet more pain. If an endo were to look at you, he would notice your low LH and FSH. Then he would look for pituitary tumors. I have been there, so I know what that is about. I now know that being on high dose narcotics will put my T below reference range. But that is not an attractive option, can't stand what alcohol does to me. Drugs are even less appealing. > > > > > > One thing to remember with the book is that the part about shots > is > > > outdated. It is my understanding from what others have said > here that > > > Dr. Shippen now uses shots. > > > > > > Mark > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 Wow Amy, this is more like it. This is a lot to digest but here it goes. > My heart is NOT set on any treatment - my heart is set on getting the > Doctors to take the low T levels seriously. So it is attaching to the > protein - or so he thinks - what is the solution for this? Well, the only thing I can think of that can lead to the situation you are describing is if his Total T was normal or high and his Free T (or Bio-T) was low. This would indicate some of his protein levels are high. This could mean either his SHBG is high or his Albumin is high, or both. But from your other posts his Total T seems low so I don't know how your doctor could think it's a protein binding problem unless other tests have shown high SHBG or Albumin. Total T is a combination of Free T and Protein bound T put together. If your Total T is low then usually you're not going to have a high protein bound T problem. So I don't know why your doctor would be saying that it's a protein binding problem. If we knew your DH's SHBG and Albumin (which are the main Testosterone binding proteins) then we'd have a much better picture of his situation. > My DH has had some serious issues over the past few years and we have been > to many specialists. Nothing has been determined but they all ask about his > Low T levels and what is being done about it. The problem is - they are all > the WRONG type of specialist and because of our current insurance they can > do nothing. This sucks. Everyone here has had their problems with doctors not knowing much about proper TRT. GP docs are sometimes not that good for leading TRT but are good for letting you have the most control over your TRT if you know what you're doing. Sometimes you can get lucky and find a Doc that does a lot of TRT and that is optimal if you can find someone. But it sounds like you're not in a situation where that's possible. So hopefully you can learn as much about it as possible and really push. And I wouldn't be afraid to push at this point but you have to do a lot of reading and really understand the hormonal systems so you can make a good argument with your doc. > In 1998 he went into the ER for breathing issues (he has asthma) and ended > up in the hospital for his heart being in A-fibrillation (sorry I know that > is spelled wrong). By the time he left there his heart was normal but they > had found that he had hyperthyroidism as far back as 1988 when he had been > in the ER. A-Fib is a sign of hyperthyroidism. > In 1999 his thyroid took a different angle and went to being a > hypothyroidism due to his meds not being able to be regulated and it has > been hypo since that point. Every Dr. visit his meds are changed because he > is never within a normal range. Did he have radioiodine ablation treatment? It sounds like he went hypo on his own but sometimes they induce it so they can control thyroid hormones at a more constant level. > In 2001 in counseling he admitted to having no interest in sex. He never > had and it has always been a complaint of every women he has been with and > that is why all of them have left him. Poor libido is a symptom of hyper and hypothyroidism as well. > So even if you can give me a list of test (which I wrote all those written > early down) and a explanation as to why it should be done would be great. I > know you are not Dr.'s on this board - I get that; but you are all living > with a Low T level (or were living and are now treating) and so hearing from > you guys helps. > > I don't mean to snap at anyone - I just feel as if I am swamped and > surrounded by idiots. No problem Amy, I know what you're going through. I just spent 10+ years of my life with symptoms and the last three+ years trying to figure out what's wrong with me. I've been to a half dozen specialists and have been diagnosed with a plethora of minor and a few potentially major illnesses that I wouldn't have known about if it wasn't for my long road to diagnosis. I know what you're going through but you should realize that it's going to take time and effort to get to the bottom of this. So here's my take on this whole thing, and by the way that was a good post with a lot of useful information. First off, a vast majority of the symptoms you describe are symptoms of thyroid problems. From poor libido to irritability to muscle wasting and weakness to cognitive decline to poor sleep to cholesterol problems to depression to weight gain and loss to so many other symptoms. At first glance it looks to me like he's got uncontrolled thyroid problems. Also, his thyroid may be cycling and going hyper and then hypo and then hyper again which can cause a ton of problems and swinging symptoms. Has he been seen by a thyroid specialist? If he's never had radioiodine ablation treatment or if his medication dosages are wrong then his thyroid may be cycling hypo and then hyper. This may be caused by a number of factors including changing metabolism of his medications which can be related to changing liver function and many other causes. Based on the symptoms and history you describe I'm pretty sure his main problem is not hypogonadism related although some of his symptoms may be related to low T. Obviously, his main issue is his thyroid which does not appear being treated successfully or aggressively. So first off you need to ask your doctor for all previous blood work results that he has on record for DH as well as any previous doctors or institutions so you can map a history for him. I have a spreadsheet that I designed for this purpose, has all my blood work for the last three years. If I were you at a minimum I'd ask for the following tests: 1) Full Liver Function Panel 2) Complete Blood Count (CBC) 3) Metabolic Panel (includes glucose and other metabolism related values) 4) A Hypothalamus, Pituitary, Gondadal Axis Workup including ----- Total T, ----- Bioavailable T or Free T, ----- SHBG (which should be part of the Liver Function Panel), ----- Albumin ----- LH ----- FSH 5) Thyroid Tests ----- You may want to get a series of tests to see if he's cycling hyper and hypo. I don't know much about this so you will have to do more research on this as to how to test for this properly. Hmmm, that's all I can think of off the top of my head. You may want to, if you haven't already, www.allthingsmale.com and get Dr. 's " TRT: A Recipe for Success " paper which has a good list of blood work to get and he describes how to interpret some of them as well. I don't think you'll be able to get your doctor to do all these tests but the ones I listed should be a minimum I would think. I would imagine that he had already done some of them in the past so if he did you should get those results as well so you can detect any changing patterns. Well, that's all I can think of right now. I understand your frustration and sense of urgency. He really should be seen by a thyroid specialist which would probably be an Endocrinologist at first. I'm sure he's seen them before with his thyroid issues but obviously they're not treating him aggressively enough to get him stable. Endocrinologists aren't always the best docs for hypogonadism but they are usually pretty good at thyroid stuff as they see more of those types of cases. If you can find an open minded Endo then sometimes you can find a good one for TRT as well. Regardless, I really think you should get his thyroid sitation under control first before TRT. I'm not sure TRT would releive enough of his symptoms to make any signifigant difference. But perhaps it's worth a try. Bear in mind I'm not a doctor I'm just an engineer with a science degree that has spent years trying to figure out what's wrong with me and spending countless hours reading and researching various medical conditions in order to determine if they applied to me. My intention is just to help point you in a direction so you can do some research yourself and/or ask your doctor questions. So I hope this helps in some way and I'm sorry for your situation. If you have any questions or if you find out more information please post it back. ASaxon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 I don't have time to answer all the questions this morning but: He has been seeing an endo since 1999. We have literally gone through all of them in our city and the one next to us. We are on the last one right now; who is nice and has great bedside manor but as with all the others we have seen are old and stuck in their ways. On 5/10/06, asaxon67 <no_reply > wrote: > > Wow Amy, this is more like it. This is a lot to digest but here it goes. > > > > My heart is NOT set on any treatment - my heart is set on getting the > > Doctors to take the low T levels seriously. So it is attaching to the > > protein - or so he thinks - what is the solution for this? > > Well, the only thing I can think of that can lead to the situation you > are describing is if his Total T was normal or high and his Free T (or > Bio-T) was low. This would indicate some of his protein levels are > high. This could mean either his SHBG is high or his Albumin is high, > or both. But from your other posts his Total T seems low so I don't > know how your doctor could think it's a protein binding problem unless > other tests have shown high SHBG or Albumin. > > Total T is a combination of Free T and Protein bound T put together. > If your Total T is low then usually you're not going to have a high > protein bound T problem. So I don't know why your doctor would be > saying that it's a protein binding problem. If we knew your DH's > SHBG and Albumin (which are the main Testosterone binding proteins) > then we'd have a much better picture of his situation. > > > > My DH has had some serious issues over the past few years and we > have been > > to many specialists. Nothing has been determined but they all ask > about his > > Low T levels and what is being done about it. The problem is - they > are all > > the WRONG type of specialist and because of our current insurance > they can > > do nothing. > > This sucks. Everyone here has had their problems with doctors not > knowing much about proper TRT. GP docs are sometimes not that good > for leading TRT but are good for letting you have the most control > over your TRT if you know what you're doing. Sometimes you can get > lucky and find a Doc that does a lot of TRT and that is optimal if you > can find someone. But it sounds like you're not in a situation where > that's possible. So hopefully you can learn as much about it as > possible and really push. And I wouldn't be afraid to push at this > point but you have to do a lot of reading and really understand the > hormonal systems so you can make a good argument with your doc. > > > > In 1998 he went into the ER for breathing issues (he has asthma) and > ended > > up in the hospital for his heart being in A-fibrillation (sorry I > know that > > is spelled wrong). By the time he left there his heart was normal > but they > > had found that he had hyperthyroidism as far back as 1988 when he > had been > > in the ER. > > A-Fib is a sign of hyperthyroidism. > > > > In 1999 his thyroid took a different angle and went to being a > > hypothyroidism due to his meds not being able to be regulated and it has > > been hypo since that point. Every Dr. visit his meds are changed > because he > > is never within a normal range. > > Did he have radioiodine ablation treatment? It sounds like he went > hypo on his own but sometimes they induce it so they can control > thyroid hormones at a more constant level. > > > > In 2001 in counseling he admitted to having no interest in sex. He > never > > had and it has always been a complaint of every women he has been > with and > > that is why all of them have left him. > > Poor libido is a symptom of hyper and hypothyroidism as well. > > > > So even if you can give me a list of test (which I wrote all those > written > > early down) and a explanation as to why it should be done would be > great. I > > know you are not Dr.'s on this board - I get that; but you are all > living > > with a Low T level (or were living and are now treating) and so > hearing from > > you guys helps. > > > > I don't mean to snap at anyone - I just feel as if I am swamped and > > surrounded by idiots. > > No problem Amy, I know what you're going through. I just spent 10+ > years of my life with symptoms and the last three+ years trying to > figure out what's wrong with me. I've been to a half dozen > specialists and have been diagnosed with a plethora of minor and a few > potentially major illnesses that I wouldn't have known about if it > wasn't for my long road to diagnosis. I know what you're going > through but you should realize that it's going to take time and effort > to get to the bottom of this. > > So here's my take on this whole thing, and by the way that was a good > post with a lot of useful information. > > First off, a vast majority of the symptoms you describe are symptoms > of thyroid problems. From poor libido to irritability to muscle > wasting and weakness to cognitive decline to poor sleep to cholesterol > problems to depression to weight gain and loss to so many other > symptoms. At first glance it looks to me like he's got uncontrolled > thyroid problems. Also, his thyroid may be cycling and going hyper > and then hypo and then hyper again which can cause a ton of problems > and swinging symptoms. Has he been seen by a thyroid specialist? > > If he's never had radioiodine ablation treatment or if his medication > dosages are wrong then his thyroid may be cycling hypo and then hyper. > This may be caused by a number of factors including changing > metabolism of his medications which can be related to changing liver > function and many other causes. > > Based on the symptoms and history you describe I'm pretty sure his > main problem is not hypogonadism related although some of his symptoms > may be related to low T. Obviously, his main issue is his thyroid > which does not appear being treated successfully or aggressively. > > So first off you need to ask your doctor for all previous blood work > results that he has on record for DH as well as any previous doctors > or institutions so you can map a history for him. I have a > spreadsheet that I designed for this purpose, has all my blood work > for the last three years. > > If I were you at a minimum I'd ask for the following tests: > > 1) Full Liver Function Panel > 2) Complete Blood Count (CBC) > 3) Metabolic Panel (includes glucose and other metabolism related values) > 4) A Hypothalamus, Pituitary, Gondadal Axis Workup including > ----- Total T, > ----- Bioavailable T or Free T, > ----- SHBG (which should be part of the Liver Function Panel), > ----- Albumin > ----- LH > ----- FSH > 5) Thyroid Tests > ----- You may want to get a series of tests to see if he's cycling > hyper and hypo. I don't know much about this so you will have to do > more research on this as to how to test for this properly. > > Hmmm, that's all I can think of off the top of my head. You may want > to, if you haven't already, www.allthingsmale.com and get Dr. 's > " TRT: A Recipe for Success " paper which has a good list of blood work > to get and he describes how to interpret some of them as well. > > I don't think you'll be able to get your doctor to do all these tests > but the ones I listed should be a minimum I would think. I would > imagine that he had already done some of them in the past so if he did > you should get those results as well so you can detect any changing > patterns. > > Well, that's all I can think of right now. I understand your > frustration and sense of urgency. He really should be seen by a > thyroid specialist which would probably be an Endocrinologist at > first. I'm sure he's seen them before with his thyroid issues but > obviously they're not treating him aggressively enough to get him > stable. Endocrinologists aren't always the best docs for hypogonadism > but they are usually pretty good at thyroid stuff as they see more of > those types of cases. If you can find an open minded Endo then > sometimes you can find a good one for TRT as well. > > Regardless, I really think you should get his thyroid sitation under > control first before TRT. I'm not sure TRT would releive enough of > his symptoms to make any signifigant difference. But perhaps it's > worth a try. > > Bear in mind I'm not a doctor I'm just an engineer with a science > degree that has spent years trying to figure out what's wrong with me > and spending countless hours reading and researching various medical > conditions in order to determine if they applied to me. My intention > is just to help point you in a direction so you can do some research > yourself and/or ask your doctor questions. So I hope this helps in > some way and I'm sorry for your situation. If you have any questions > or if you find out more information please post it back. > > ASaxon > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 As I said - I don't have a ton of time right now... DH has not been switching meds to the latest and greatest. He has pretty much been on two meds the whole time he has had the thyroid issue. It is just at every visit the dosage is changed. Amy PS - I think Asaxon asked this but his thyroid dropped on its own - DH refused to have the ablation done. On 5/9/06, Wayne Birdie <wayne_in_hawaii27@...> wrote: > > Aloha Amy! > > Well, now that you've probably scared off half the membership, LOL, > I'm going to take a " stab " at it. > > aSaxon and the others were and ARE going by just the information you > gave them. There was no way for us to guess what your DH's medical > history for the past decade would've been without you doing just > what you are or did. I STILL get the odd feeling that there is more > to this than meets our eyes. Don't ask me why, just do. > > OK, for one thing, after nearly EIGHT years are his thyroid > medications STILL being altered? Do you think it's just because the > doc he sees gets hit up with the " latest " new drug to treat that > and the doc feels an obligation to give it to him? > > How MANY doctors do you roughly guess he has seen over the years for > various physical abnormalities. > > You mentioned this in your post: > > > " In 2001 in counseling he admitted to having no interest in sex. He > never had and it has always been a complaint of every women he has > been with and that is why all of them have left him. " > > First off, I hear the frustration in your " voice " and DO understand > it. I commend you as I do my own wife of 27 years for bearing with > me until an answer is found. You are obviously more in love with > your DH than any of the women in his previous relationships/marriage > (s). > > Being that it took a counseling session to bring out his lack of > libido, that tells me that you and he came close to also calling it > off, but again, good for you for being there for him and being his > advocate. > > Amy, I'd like to be frank with you as much as possible without > sounding rude, crude or chauvinistic. Usually we (as you well know) > are talking to other males and being a male allows up to use simpler > terms more seriously and not get offended because we know it is > a " man-to-man " talk. (Something tells me I don't have to walk on > eggshells, but until you give us the signal (whatever that means), > I/we don't know if we can ask you the same questions about certain > aspects of his sexuality the same as if we were " talking " to him. > > A very good guage for having " normal " testosterone is sexual. Just > as an example, if we were talking to him, we'd ask him if he is > getting the regular nocturnal erections and/or morning erections > that men with proper " T " do. Would you be able to answer that? > > How open are you and he with the topic of sex. Believe me, almost > all of us here KNOW how important sex can be in a loving > relationship. I used to tell the kids whenever they'd hear my wife > and I making love that " as long as they hear that, it means that > everything is OK with Mommy and Daddy. It's when you start NOT ever > hearing those sounds you have to worry. " Honestly. I've also heard > sex therapists say that " if things are OK in the bedroom, things are > usually OK in the marriage " . HOWEVER, don't take that as a sign of > him not loving you! My wife was actually slightly relieved to hear > that it was a medical problem rather than an emotional one once > my " T " was diagnosed under 100. I'm sure he loves you dearly and his > frustration level, along with yours must be driving you both to your > wits end. > > Is your DH the kind that thinks it isn't anyone else's business so > he refuses to post here himself? I can understand his side and your > side. > > All I'm trying to do here Amy is make sure that IF we do ask you > questions and " talk " to you as if you were a MAN, that you won't get > offended in ANY way. Personally, I can think of at least five > questions regarding his sexual life that I'd like to know before > saying anything else. But would a wife understand them? > > I only hope some of the above has made some sense. > > Aloha for now, > > Wayne > > > > > > > > > > > I wasn't really looking for people to give me an idea as to > what > > > is wrong > > > > with DH - I have plenty of ideas on that. The issues for me is > > > figuring out > > > > " what " to send to the GP to help light a fire under his butt. > > > > > > Sounds like you've already set your mind that TRT is the > solution. > > > I'm not sure it is in your DH's case. You don't want to be on > TRT > > > unless you truly have primary or secondary hypogonadism or some > > > other chronic and incurable disease that causes hypogonadism of > > > which you only want to relieve symptoms but not cure the problem. > > > TRT is almost always lifelong so it's a serious decision. Most > > > people here are constantly dealing with artificially balancing a > > > very complex hormonal system. If certain hormones are too high > you > > > feel like crap, if they're too low you feel like crap. If a > primary > > > hormone causes a metabolite hormone to go high or low you feel > like > > > crap. That's why it's always better to treat the underlying > issues, > > > if any, before going on TRT. This should always be the approach > to > > > TRT when possible. > > > > > > If there are no underlying conditions then good TRT treatment can > > > work wonders, bad TRT treatment can make things worse as can > masking > > > an underlying condition with TRT which would only cause that > > > underlying condition to get worse. If the underlying condition > is > > > being treated and there's nothing more that can be done for it > and > > > hypogonadism still is present then TRT could help with symptoms. > > > > > > With that said, if you're heart is set on TRT then I think the > > > reference pmgamer gave you, namely, the AACE guidelines and Dr. > > > Crisler's TRT document are good reads. The AACE guidelines will > > > have the most weight when talking to a doctor because they're a > > > recognized organization. But without more test results it will > be > > > hard to make arguments based on the AACE guidelines. That's why > we > > > were pushing for more tests because without them it's difficult > for > > > us to help you make an argument for TRT to your doctor. > > > > > > You posted some test results but you didn't include the reference > > > ranges. All test results need to have the reference ranges > posted > > > as every lab can use different tests and thus have different > ranges > > > which would make the measured results mean different things. > You're > > > DH may very well have clinical hypogonadism but it may not be his > > > primary problem, and given your previous posts I would doubt > that it > > > is. I'm concerned that he may have a more serious problem. > > > Something tells me that you know this but are not willing to say > > > exactly what it is, that's okay, but our advice is limited only > by > > > the amount of information we have. > > > > > > Good Luck! > > > > > > ASaxon > > > > > > > -- > > AVON Independent Sales Representative > > www.yourAVON.com/apowers <http://www.youravon.com/apowers> > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 Wayne I would like to just toss a thought in here between you and Amy's conversation. I noticed you are taking 200mg of T every other week. With my 20 some year experience with T I have found that 100mg of T every week is the best of all worlds. I started out on T once a month. I had really high and lows then they discovered that ever two weeks was better, you didn't have the peaks and valleys. Now most all the guys here are on 100mg per week. I myself had to cut back to 75mg weekly as my T went to the top of the range. I cannot let my blood get too thick as I have coronary disease so I don't want a stroke. Take an aspirin a day now to keep it thin. Just thought I would throw this out there for you to think about. I do my own shots now, had a nurse do them for years. It isn't that hard in the thy. Am glad you are experiencing such good results from T also, it is a real Godsend to many people who DIDN'T know as I didn't for many years. By the way Wayne I am 83, 175lbs 5'10 " Can get in my WWII uniform. God Bless, Roy Wayne Birdie <wayne_in_hawaii27@...> wrote: Aloha Amy! I joined this group almost a month ago if not a month+ and until then, I didn't even KNOW that " T " could have such a profound effect on so many functions of a mans body. I've been undergoing TRT for over a month but noticed major sexual differences right away (along with my wife who thinks I'm oversexed now! LOL!) However, and I'm serious about this, I had three failed spine surgeries that changed my life due to the Chronic Pain they caused. That pain has been minimised since TRT. I used to be in the worst case of suicidal depression and even made a couple of feeble attemps at it. That's gone now and I only experience what most would call " normal " depression, so I've started to taper off of Celexa WITH my docs blessings. I've had aches, pains and all that goes with aging (I'm only 50+) but the TRT is actually doing all the positive things it should. I love on a small island in Hawaii and there is no endo or Uro here but one comes over from Oahu once a month (for one day!). I can't make those as they conflict with my wife's schedule and I WANT her to be there. My Total or Free " T " was 84 and with a range of 290 being the lowest normal number, I was not a man any woman would want to be married to. But thanks to God's good graces for letting me meet the woman I married 27 years ago and who takes/took her vows seriously, she's " toughed it out " right along side me (damn near makes me cry just thinking about it!! ). So my GP or regular doc who takes care of everything except my Chronic Pain and depression said, To heck with seeing an Endo or Uro because your levels are so low they'd probably put you on " T " anyway " . He started me on " T " -depo-t 200mgs once every other week indefinately. I've said it before and I'll say it again, This may possibly be the best thing the medical profession has done for me since I became involved as a patient 9+ years ago. I know this doesn't help as far as something to take to your GP to prompt him to start your DH on " T " . I just wanted to let you know that not only do I enjoy being myself again, but my WIFE is too. It's been nothing but a win-win situation for the both of us. I sure hope someone gives you a link to something that could possibly persuade your GP into " going your way " . Tell hubby he won't regret it. Honestly! Aloha for now, Wayne > > > > One thing to remember with the book is that the part about shots is > > outdated. It is my understanding from what others have said here that > > Dr. Shippen now uses shots. > > > > Mark > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 Hi Any, The bottom line here is your husbands Total and Free T levels are to low and may have been like this for yrs. This is way he is having problems that you posted about. Weak joints and muscles low sex drive. High Estradiol will kill his sex life and make him suffer feels of panic making him feel agitated. Heart, Thyroid, and Adrenal Fatigue and numbness are all the things that can be from low T over a long time. One can't get exercise when they go to bed Fatigued and get feeling the same it is like being between a rock and a hard place. So here is my Take on this just find a Dr. and get him on T meds. Try the Gels if you have a drug plain if not do shots. Finding a Dr. to treat him for this will be tough but can be done. His levels are low and he has all the sines of the damage it does. Endo's and Uro's are good if you find one but I never did. So go to the files section here at the home page on the lift side and read Finding a Male Hormone Dr. then check the Data section and see if anyone has there Dr. in there that is close to you. If not then try calling some Compounding Pharmacy's and ask for the names of Dr.'s in your area the use Compounded T meds. And try this link. http://www.tuneupyourt.com/ Click on Find a Dr. then put in your state. You will get a long list of Dr.'s but this only means they signed up does not mean they are up on TRT. You need to ask questions before you see them. Ask how many men does the Dr. treat for low T and if he tests for high Estradiol if so does he use Arimidex to get it down. Ask if he checks to see why he is low and if he use's HCG to keep the testis working. You will know when you have found one. He also needs to be tested for Adrenal Fatigue so get his Cortisol level check a blood test done at 8am. If this test is below say 25 he has Cortisol problems and this can be why he can't get his Thyroid under control on meds. The body needs Cortisol to carry the Thyroid meds to his cells when the cortisol is low the med stays in his blood stream and can make him feel hyper on a low dose. Go to this site and read it it saved my wife yrs of suffering now she is getting better. Bad Thyroid feeds low T and low T feeds Thyroid so you need both in balance. So read this site it has all the info you need to get his tryroid in balance. http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/ I feel just get him on T meds so he will start feeling better and when he is leveled off and stable work from there. Good luck Phil " Amy L. Powers " <apowers0900@...> wrote: I don't have time to answer all the questions this morning but: He has been seeing an endo since 1999. We have literally gone through all of them in our city and the one next to us. We are on the last one right now; who is nice and has great bedside manor but as with all the others we have seen are old and stuck in their ways. On 5/10/06, asaxon67 wrote: > > Wow Amy, this is more like it. This is a lot to digest but here it goes. > > > > My heart is NOT set on any treatment - my heart is set on getting the > > Doctors to take the low T levels seriously. So it is attaching to the > > protein - or so he thinks - what is the solution for this? > > Well, the only thing I can think of that can lead to the situation you > are describing is if his Total T was normal or high and his Free T (or > Bio-T) was low. This would indicate some of his protein levels are > high. This could mean either his SHBG is high or his Albumin is high, > or both. But from your other posts his Total T seems low so I don't > know how your doctor could think it's a protein binding problem unless > other tests have shown high SHBG or Albumin. > > Total T is a combination of Free T and Protein bound T put together. > If your Total T is low then usually you're not going to have a high > protein bound T problem. So I don't know why your doctor would be > saying that it's a protein binding problem. If we knew your DH's > SHBG and Albumin (which are the main Testosterone binding proteins) > then we'd have a much better picture of his situation. > > > > My DH has had some serious issues over the past few years and we > have been > > to many specialists. Nothing has been determined but they all ask > about his > > Low T levels and what is being done about it. The problem is - they > are all > > the WRONG type of specialist and because of our current insurance > they can > > do nothing. > > This sucks. Everyone here has had their problems with doctors not > knowing much about proper TRT. GP docs are sometimes not that good > for leading TRT but are good for letting you have the most control > over your TRT if you know what you're doing. Sometimes you can get > lucky and find a Doc that does a lot of TRT and that is optimal if you > can find someone. But it sounds like you're not in a situation where > that's possible. So hopefully you can learn as much about it as > possible and really push. And I wouldn't be afraid to push at this > point but you have to do a lot of reading and really understand the > hormonal systems so you can make a good argument with your doc. > > > > In 1998 he went into the ER for breathing issues (he has asthma) and > ended > > up in the hospital for his heart being in A-fibrillation (sorry I > know that > > is spelled wrong). By the time he left there his heart was normal > but they > > had found that he had hyperthyroidism as far back as 1988 when he > had been > > in the ER. > > A-Fib is a sign of hyperthyroidism. > > > > In 1999 his thyroid took a different angle and went to being a > > hypothyroidism due to his meds not being able to be regulated and it has > > been hypo since that point. Every Dr. visit his meds are changed > because he > > is never within a normal range. > > Did he have radioiodine ablation treatment? It sounds like he went > hypo on his own but sometimes they induce it so they can control > thyroid hormones at a more constant level. > > > > In 2001 in counseling he admitted to having no interest in sex. He > never > > had and it has always been a complaint of every women he has been > with and > > that is why all of them have left him. > > Poor libido is a symptom of hyper and hypothyroidism as well. > > > > So even if you can give me a list of test (which I wrote all those > written > > early down) and a explanation as to why it should be done would be > great. I > > know you are not Dr.'s on this board - I get that; but you are all > living > > with a Low T level (or were living and are now treating) and so > hearing from > > you guys helps. > > > > I don't mean to snap at anyone - I just feel as if I am swamped and > > surrounded by idiots. > > No problem Amy, I know what you're going through. I just spent 10+ > years of my life with symptoms and the last three+ years trying to > figure out what's wrong with me. I've been to a half dozen > specialists and have been diagnosed with a plethora of minor and a few > potentially major illnesses that I wouldn't have known about if it > wasn't for my long road to diagnosis. I know what you're going > through but you should realize that it's going to take time and effort > to get to the bottom of this. > > So here's my take on this whole thing, and by the way that was a good > post with a lot of useful information. > > First off, a vast majority of the symptoms you describe are symptoms > of thyroid problems. From poor libido to irritability to muscle > wasting and weakness to cognitive decline to poor sleep to cholesterol > problems to depression to weight gain and loss to so many other > symptoms. At first glance it looks to me like he's got uncontrolled > thyroid problems. Also, his thyroid may be cycling and going hyper > and then hypo and then hyper again which can cause a ton of problems > and swinging symptoms. Has he been seen by a thyroid specialist? > > If he's never had radioiodine ablation treatment or if his medication > dosages are wrong then his thyroid may be cycling hypo and then hyper. > This may be caused by a number of factors including changing > metabolism of his medications which can be related to changing liver > function and many other causes. > > Based on the symptoms and history you describe I'm pretty sure his > main problem is not hypogonadism related although some of his symptoms > may be related to low T. Obviously, his main issue is his thyroid > which does not appear being treated successfully or aggressively. > > So first off you need to ask your doctor for all previous blood work > results that he has on record for DH as well as any previous doctors > or institutions so you can map a history for him. I have a > spreadsheet that I designed for this purpose, has all my blood work > for the last three years. > > If I were you at a minimum I'd ask for the following tests: > > 1) Full Liver Function Panel > 2) Complete Blood Count (CBC) > 3) Metabolic Panel (includes glucose and other metabolism related values) > 4) A Hypothalamus, Pituitary, Gondadal Axis Workup including > ----- Total T, > ----- Bioavailable T or Free T, > ----- SHBG (which should be part of the Liver Function Panel), > ----- Albumin > ----- LH > ----- FSH > 5) Thyroid Tests > ----- You may want to get a series of tests to see if he's cycling > hyper and hypo. I don't know much about this so you will have to do > more research on this as to how to test for this properly. > > Hmmm, that's all I can think of off the top of my head. You may want > to, if you haven't already, www.allthingsmale.com and get Dr. 's > " TRT: A Recipe for Success " paper which has a good list of blood work > to get and he describes how to interpret some of them as well. > > I don't think you'll be able to get your doctor to do all these tests > but the ones I listed should be a minimum I would think. I would > imagine that he had already done some of them in the past so if he did > you should get those results as well so you can detect any changing > patterns. > > Well, that's all I can think of right now. I understand your > frustration and sense of urgency. He really should be seen by a > thyroid specialist which would probably be an Endocrinologist at > first. I'm sure he's seen them before with his thyroid issues but > obviously they're not treating him aggressively enough to get him > stable. Endocrinologists aren't always the best docs for hypogonadism > but they are usually pretty good at thyroid stuff as they see more of > those types of cases. If you can find an open minded Endo then > sometimes you can find a good one for TRT as well. > > Regardless, I really think you should get his thyroid sitation under > control first before TRT. I'm not sure TRT would releive enough of > his symptoms to make any signifigant difference. But perhaps it's > worth a try. > > Bear in mind I'm not a doctor I'm just an engineer with a science > degree that has spent years trying to figure out what's wrong with me > and spending countless hours reading and researching various medical > conditions in order to determine if they applied to me. My intention > is just to help point you in a direction so you can do some research > yourself and/or ask your doctor questions. So I hope this helps in > some way and I'm sorry for your situation. If you have any questions > or if you find out more information please post it back. > > ASaxon > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 Hi Amy, I just hope we all are not in the group of idiots that you mentioned in your note. " Doctors, I hope. " Ha! I just wanted to throw this in for what it's worth. I have been on T now for 20 years. I didn't know I why I was feeling so bad at about 60. why I was so down mentally, depressed. Coulnd't get a good nights sleep. I thought it was stress over my business. I had aches and pains, prostate was giving me pain at times. It would hit me and I would literally fold up in that shap jerk of pain. It wasn't until later on my GP found out I had low testerone leve. It was 73 - Range 241-827. So I was really low. If I were your DH I would first tackle the T problem and it just may clear up a lot of other problems. Like him I was probably low all my life and didn't know it. They didn't know much about it 30 years ago. I am 83 now and I feel good considering my age. Wife and I just pased our 60th. Good luck and stick with us, there are answers to most of your problems right here. We all tell about what has happened to us so it is first hand. I don't think much of Endo's though. Try to find a doctro that treats men for low T. Good luck and God Bless, Roy " Amy L. Powers " <apowers0900@...> wrote: ASaxon, My heart is NOT set on any treatment - my heart is set on getting the Doctors to take the low T levels seriously. So it is attaching to the protein - or so he thinks - what is the solution for this? My DH has had some serious issues over the past few years and we have been to many specialists. Nothing has been determined but they all ask about his Low T levels and what is being done about it. The problem is - they are all the WRONG type of specialist and because of our current insurance they can do nothing. I don't mean to sound rude or anything - I just need help with whatever is going on. Want a history - I can give that but it isn't going to have blood draw levels because I don't have those readily at hand. In 1998 he went into the ER for breathing issues (he has asthma) and ended up in the hospital for his heart being in A-fibrillation (sorry I know that is spelled wrong). By the time he left there his heart was normal but they had found that he had hyperthyroidism as far back as 1988 when he had been in the ER. In 1999 his thyroid took a different angle and went to being a hypothyroidism due to his meds not being able to be regulated and it has been hypo since that point. Every Dr. visit his meds are changed because he is never within a normal range. In 2000 DH went for testing because his primary thought he had carpal tunnel. Did the tests and came back negative for that. They did an MRI and found a slight bulge in a disk in his neck but not enough to do surgery or worry about. The just assumed that the numbness in his fingers were caused by that (which has now been determined they were correct). In 2001 in counseling he admitted to having no interest in sex. He never had and it has always been a complaint of every women he has been with and that is why all of them have left him. In 2003 he started have issues with his right leg. It just wasn't working correctly. He was rolling the ankle on a regular basis and it kept on getting sprained. He spoke with his GP about the ankle weakness issue and his GP just kept on asking where the pain was and since there wasn't a pain it was never addressed. In 2004 he started to have muscle weakness further up his leg. At his annual appointment he brought up the leg issue with the same response as before but DH never pushed the matter. In 2005 at his annual appointment I went with him and addressed a ton of issues. DH has had numerous prostate infections and I found a link to that with low T levels and cancer. That on top of the lack of interest in sex, the lack of concentration on his part, always feeling as if he is in a fog, his is angry over the smallest things and doesn't express it well at all, he doesn't sleep well, his chol. is horrible, depression, his belly being huge, issues with his bladder control, his horrible self-esteem issues and so many other things - I decided addressing his T levels was a valid concern. By November 2005 we were finally in to see a neurologist and that long process has been started. They do not know what is wrong but they feel that he maybe have some nerve degeneration and muscle degeneration but they can't determine why. So yes there are huge things going on right now but in all honesty when I can't get answer out of Dr.'s as to " why " this or that and " how " do we take care of this or that - I get frustrated. My DH is so very overwhelmed right now with all that is going on that he feels like he is falling apart. He just takes what Dr.'s say at face value and he leaves it alone but I am not like that. These Dr.'s are not God - they do not have all the answers and they would be 100% better if they would just admit to that. Right now the only advocate my DH has is myself. I guess right now my hope is if I can get answers to some of this as to the why's or how's then I would probably feel so much better. I do not know what the underlying issues are but I want to know how we find out. Yet my problem is most; if not all of his Dr.'s say well that is this persons problem and I can't do a thing about it. So even if you can give me a list of test (which I wrote all those written early down) and a explanation as to why it should be done would be great. I know you are not Dr.'s on this board - I get that; but you are all living with a Low T level (or were living and are now treating) and so hearing from you guys helps. I don't mean to snap at anyone - I just feel as if I am swamped and surrounded by idiots. Thanks for listening, Amy On 5/9/06, asaxon67 <no_reply > wrote: > > > > I wasn't really looking for people to give me an idea as to what > is wrong > > with DH - I have plenty of ideas on that. The issues for me is > figuring out > > " what " to send to the GP to help light a fire under his butt. > > Sounds like you've already set your mind that TRT is the solution. > I'm not sure it is in your DH's case. You don't want to be on TRT > unless you truly have primary or secondary hypogonadism or some > other chronic and incurable disease that causes hypogonadism of > which you only want to relieve symptoms but not cure the problem. > TRT is almost always lifelong so it's a serious decision. Most > people here are constantly dealing with artificially balancing a > very complex hormonal system. If certain hormones are too high you > feel like crap, if they're too low you feel like crap. If a primary > hormone causes a metabolite hormone to go high or low you feel like > crap. That's why it's always better to treat the underlying issues, > if any, before going on TRT. This should always be the approach to > TRT when possible. > > If there are no underlying conditions then good TRT treatment can > work wonders, bad TRT treatment can make things worse as can masking > an underlying condition with TRT which would only cause that > underlying condition to get worse. If the underlying condition is > being treated and there's nothing more that can be done for it and > hypogonadism still is present then TRT could help with symptoms. > > With that said, if you're heart is set on TRT then I think the > reference pmgamer gave you, namely, the AACE guidelines and Dr. > Crisler's TRT document are good reads. The AACE guidelines will > have the most weight when talking to a doctor because they're a > recognized organization. But without more test results it will be > hard to make arguments based on the AACE guidelines. That's why we > were pushing for more tests because without them it's difficult for > us to help you make an argument for TRT to your doctor. > > You posted some test results but you didn't include the reference > ranges. All test results need to have the reference ranges posted > as every lab can use different tests and thus have different ranges > which would make the measured results mean different things. You're > DH may very well have clinical hypogonadism but it may not be his > primary problem, and given your previous posts I would doubt that it > is. I'm concerned that he may have a more serious problem. > Something tells me that you know this but are not willing to say > exactly what it is, that's okay, but our advice is limited only by > the amount of information we have. > > Good Luck! > > ASaxon > -- AVON Independent Sales Representative www.yourAVON.com/apowers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 Hey Roy, Just so you know I don't think all Doctors are idiots either (my BIL is one - LOL)... I have tried to find people who are around us and most of those who treat low T levels are over a 3 hour drive from us. So I am hoping that once again addressing this issue with his GP that he will " help " so to speak. If not I am off to find my DH a new GP (which I do have permission to do but I am hoping because he cared enough to do " some " research on it he will care enough to help some more). Thanks! Amy PS - this isn't to Roy but someone asked earlier if I get easily offended and they had more questions about DH's sexual issues - ask away. I will answer what I can. DH does not wake up every day with an erection - to be honest it is probably more like once a week and that might be stretching it. When we talked to his GP though before the original tests were run he said, " Oh no I wake up with those. " but it was a pride/embarrassment thing I am sure because I know otherwise. On 5/10/06, Roy <chickenbirdtree@...> wrote: > > Hi Amy, > > I just hope we all are not in the group of idiots that you mentioned in > your > note. " Doctors, I hope. " Ha! > > I just wanted to throw this in for what it's worth. I have been on T > now for > 20 years. I didn't know I why I was feeling so bad at about 60. why I > was > so down mentally, depressed. Coulnd't get a good nights sleep. I > thought > it was stress over my business. I had aches and pains, prostate was > giving me pain at times. It would hit me and I would literally fold up > in > that shap jerk of pain. It wasn't until later on my GP found out I had > low > testerone leve. It was 73 - Range 241-827. So I was really low. If > I were your DH I would first tackle the T problem and it just may clear > up a lot of other problems. Like him I was probably low all my life and > didn't know it. They didn't know much about it 30 years ago. I am 83 > now and I feel good considering my age. Wife and I just pased our 60th. > Good luck and stick with us, there are answers to most of your problems > right here. We all tell about what has happened to us so it is first > hand. > I don't think much of Endo's though. Try to find a doctro that treats > men > for low T. > Good luck and God Bless, > Roy > > > " Amy L. Powers " <apowers0900@...> wrote: > ASaxon, > > My heart is NOT set on any treatment - my heart is set on getting the > Doctors to take the low T levels seriously. So it is attaching to the > protein - or so he thinks - what is the solution for this? > > My DH has had some serious issues over the past few years and we have been > to many specialists. Nothing has been determined but they all ask about > his > Low T levels and what is being done about it. The problem is - they are > all > the WRONG type of specialist and because of our current insurance they can > do nothing. > > I don't mean to sound rude or anything - I just need help with whatever is > going on. Want a history - I can give that but it isn't going to have > blood > draw levels because I don't have those readily at hand. > > In 1998 he went into the ER for breathing issues (he has asthma) and ended > up in the hospital for his heart being in A-fibrillation (sorry I know > that > is spelled wrong). By the time he left there his heart was normal but > they > had found that he had hyperthyroidism as far back as 1988 when he had been > in the ER. > > In 1999 his thyroid took a different angle and went to being a > hypothyroidism due to his meds not being able to be regulated and it has > been hypo since that point. Every Dr. visit his meds are changed because > he > is never within a normal range. > > In 2000 DH went for testing because his primary thought he had carpal > tunnel. Did the tests and came back negative for that. They did an MRI > and > found a slight bulge in a disk in his neck but not enough to do surgery or > worry about. The just assumed that the numbness in his fingers were > caused > by that (which has now been determined they were correct). > > In 2001 in counseling he admitted to having no interest in sex. He never > had and it has always been a complaint of every women he has been with and > that is why all of them have left him. > > In 2003 he started have issues with his right leg. It just wasn't working > correctly. He was rolling the ankle > on a regular basis and it kept on getting sprained. He spoke with his GP > about the ankle weakness issue and his GP just kept on asking where the > pain > was and since there wasn't a pain it was never addressed. > > In 2004 he started to have muscle weakness further up his leg. At his > annual appointment he brought up the leg issue with the same response as > before but DH never pushed the matter. > > In 2005 at his annual appointment I went with him and addressed a ton of > issues. DH has had numerous prostate infections and I found a link to > that > with low T levels and cancer. That on top of the lack of interest in sex, > the lack of concentration on his part, always feeling as if he is in a > fog, > his is angry over the smallest things and doesn't express it well at all, > he > doesn't sleep well, his chol. is horrible, depression, his belly being > huge, > issues with his bladder control, his horrible self-esteem issues and so > many > other things - I decided addressing his T levels was a valid concern. > > By November 2005 we were finally in to see a neurologist and that long > process has been started. They do not know what is wrong but they feel > that > he maybe have some nerve degeneration and muscle degeneration but they > can't > determine why. > > > So yes there are huge things going on right now but in all honesty when I > can't get answer out of Dr.'s as to " why " this or that and " how " do we > take > care of this or that - I get frustrated. > > My DH is so very overwhelmed right now with all that is going on that he > feels like he is falling apart. He just takes what Dr.'s say at face > value > and he leaves it alone but I am not like that. These Dr.'s are not God - > they do not have all the answers and they would be 100% better if they > would > just admit to that. > > Right now the only advocate my DH has is myself. I guess right now my > hope > is if I can get answers to some of this as to the why's or how's then I > would probably feel so much better. I do not know what the underlying > issues are but I want to know how we find out. Yet my problem is most; if > not all of his Dr.'s say well that is this persons problem and I can't do > a > thing about it. > > So even if you can give me a list of test (which I wrote all those written > early down) and a explanation as to why it should be done would be great. > I > know you are not Dr.'s on this board - I get that; but you are all living > with a Low T level (or were living and are now treating) and so hearing > from > you guys helps. > > I don't mean to snap at anyone - I just feel as if I am swamped and > surrounded by idiots. > > Thanks for listening, > Amy > > On 5/9/06, asaxon67 <no_reply > wrote: > > > > > > > I wasn't really looking for people to give me an idea as to what > > is wrong > > > with DH - I have plenty of ideas on that. The issues for me is > > figuring out > > > " what " to send to the GP to help light a fire under his butt. > > > > Sounds like you've already set your mind that TRT is the solution. > > I'm not sure it is in your DH's case. You don't want to be on TRT > > unless you truly have primary or secondary hypogonadism or some > > other chronic and incurable disease that causes hypogonadism of > > which you only want to relieve symptoms but not cure the problem. > > TRT is almost always lifelong so it's a serious decision. Most > > people here are constantly dealing with artificially balancing a > > very complex hormonal system. If certain hormones are too high you > > feel like crap, if they're too low you feel like crap. If a primary > > hormone causes a metabolite hormone to go high or low you feel like > > crap. That's why it's always better to treat the underlying issues, > > if any, before going on TRT. This should always be the approach to > > TRT when possible. > > > > If there are no underlying conditions then good TRT treatment can > > work wonders, bad TRT treatment can make things worse as can masking > > an underlying condition with TRT which would only cause that > > underlying condition to get worse. If the underlying condition is > > being treated and there's nothing more that can be done for it and > > hypogonadism still is present then TRT could help with symptoms. > > > > With that said, if you're heart is set on TRT then I think the > > reference pmgamer gave you, namely, the AACE guidelines and Dr. > > Crisler's TRT document are good reads. The AACE guidelines will > > have the most weight when talking to a doctor because they're a > > recognized organization. But without more test results it will be > > hard to make arguments based on the AACE guidelines. That's why we > > were pushing for more tests because without them it's difficult for > > us to help you make an argument for TRT to your doctor. > > > > You posted some test results but you didn't include the reference > > ranges. All test results need to have the reference ranges posted > > as every lab can use different tests and thus have different ranges > > which would make the measured results mean different things. You're > > DH may very well have clinical hypogonadism but it may not be his > > primary problem, and given your previous posts I would doubt that it > > is. I'm concerned that he may have a more serious problem. > > Something tells me that you know this but are not willing to say > > exactly what it is, that's okay, but our advice is limited only by > > the amount of information we have. > > > > Good Luck! > > > > ASaxon > > > > -- > AVON Independent Sales Representative > www.yourAVON.com/apowers <http://www.youravon.com/apowers> > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 Aloha Amy and aSaxon! Amy, aSaxon and Randy and all! Only one thing I wanted to underscore here for Amy...the reason for wanting to get your DH's T levels up are so he feels wee enough to go through all the tests he will go through if you take aSaxons advice. I agree with Randy that once he has that sense of " well- being " , AND IT IS A REALITY, he will be much more willing to do most any other testing if you remind him that the possibility exists that he will fell even BETTER once the tests are done and action is taken. OK? Why insurance companies treat Testosterone the way they do is a real mind blower,,,some don't cover it at all, some do but treat it like " medical equipment " and some simply charge what Randy's paying. I had to pay a ONE TIME deductible of $100 for a 10 dose vial of Testosterone depo-T and refills for another just like it will only cost me $6.00 for the rest of my life! It's really screwy....and shouldn't be that way because it IS A MED...but a hormone instead of someones invention/discovery. aSaxon did give you quite a list and I also read that article he referred you to, however, that is almost four years old already (correct me if I'm wrong here) and bigger strides have happened since. I suggest it also anyway. I like it so much that I printed it out and had my wife read it (you may want to do the same for DH). Thanks everyone and especially AMY! You have the patients of a SAINT and I'm happy you took no offense to my letter. Nor does it seem like anyone else did. This is the FIRST TIME in the month I've been here that I've had to hit the " previous " button in order to begin to read the same days messages!!!! This could be a LOOOOONG day for you moderator(s). LOL! :-) Aloha just for nwo, Wayne (pardon all and any typo's) > > > > Wow Amy, this is more like it. This is a lot to digest but here it goes. > > > > > > > My heart is NOT set on any treatment - my heart is set on getting the > > > Doctors to take the low T levels seriously. So it is attaching to the > > > protein - or so he thinks - what is the solution for this? > > > > Well, the only thing I can think of that can lead to the situation you > > are describing is if his Total T was normal or high and his Free T (or > > Bio-T) was low. This would indicate some of his protein levels are > > high. This could mean either his SHBG is high or his Albumin is high, > > or both. But from your other posts his Total T seems low so I don't > > know how your doctor could think it's a protein binding problem unless > > other tests have shown high SHBG or Albumin. > > > > Total T is a combination of Free T and Protein bound T put together. > > If your Total T is low then usually you're not going to have a high > > protein bound T problem. So I don't know why your doctor would be > > saying that it's a protein binding problem. If we knew your DH's > > SHBG and Albumin (which are the main Testosterone binding proteins) > > then we'd have a much better picture of his situation. > > > > > > > My DH has had some serious issues over the past few years and we > > have been > > > to many specialists. Nothing has been determined but they all ask > > about his > > > Low T levels and what is being done about it. The problem is - they > > are all > > > the WRONG type of specialist and because of our current insurance > > they can > > > do nothing. > > > > This sucks. Everyone here has had their problems with doctors not > > knowing much about proper TRT. GP docs are sometimes not that good > > for leading TRT but are good for letting you have the most control > > over your TRT if you know what you're doing. Sometimes you can get > > lucky and find a Doc that does a lot of TRT and that is optimal if you > > can find someone. But it sounds like you're not in a situation where > > that's possible. So hopefully you can learn as much about it as > > possible and really push. And I wouldn't be afraid to push at this > > point but you have to do a lot of reading and really understand the > > hormonal systems so you can make a good argument with your doc. > > > > > > > In 1998 he went into the ER for breathing issues (he has asthma) and > > ended > > > up in the hospital for his heart being in A-fibrillation (sorry I > > know that > > > is spelled wrong). By the time he left there his heart was normal > > but they > > > had found that he had hyperthyroidism as far back as 1988 when he > > had been > > > in the ER. > > > > A-Fib is a sign of hyperthyroidism. > > > > > > > In 1999 his thyroid took a different angle and went to being a > > > hypothyroidism due to his meds not being able to be regulated and it has > > > been hypo since that point. Every Dr. visit his meds are changed > > because he > > > is never within a normal range. > > > > Did he have radioiodine ablation treatment? It sounds like he went > > hypo on his own but sometimes they induce it so they can control > > thyroid hormones at a more constant level. > > > > > > > In 2001 in counseling he admitted to having no interest in sex. He > > never > > > had and it has always been a complaint of every women he has been > > with and > > > that is why all of them have left him. > > > > Poor libido is a symptom of hyper and hypothyroidism as well. > > > > > > > So even if you can give me a list of test (which I wrote all those > > written > > > early down) and a explanation as to why it should be done would be > > great. I > > > know you are not Dr.'s on this board - I get that; but you are all > > living > > > with a Low T level (or were living and are now treating) and so > > hearing from > > > you guys helps. > > > > > > I don't mean to snap at anyone - I just feel as if I am swamped and > > > surrounded by idiots. > > > > No problem Amy, I know what you're going through. I just spent 10+ > > years of my life with symptoms and the last three+ years trying to > > figure out what's wrong with me. I've been to a half dozen > > specialists and have been diagnosed with a plethora of minor and a few > > potentially major illnesses that I wouldn't have known about if it > > wasn't for my long road to diagnosis. I know what you're going > > through but you should realize that it's going to take time and effort > > to get to the bottom of this. > > > > So here's my take on this whole thing, and by the way that was a good > > post with a lot of useful information. > > > > First off, a vast majority of the symptoms you describe are symptoms > > of thyroid problems. From poor libido to irritability to muscle > > wasting and weakness to cognitive decline to poor sleep to cholesterol > > problems to depression to weight gain and loss to so many other > > symptoms. At first glance it looks to me like he's got uncontrolled > > thyroid problems. Also, his thyroid may be cycling and going hyper > > and then hypo and then hyper again which can cause a ton of problems > > and swinging symptoms. Has he been seen by a thyroid specialist? > > > > If he's never had radioiodine ablation treatment or if his medication > > dosages are wrong then his thyroid may be cycling hypo and then hyper. > > This may be caused by a number of factors including changing > > metabolism of his medications which can be related to changing liver > > function and many other causes. > > > > Based on the symptoms and history you describe I'm pretty sure his > > main problem is not hypogonadism related although some of his symptoms > > may be related to low T. Obviously, his main issue is his thyroid > > which does not appear being treated successfully or aggressively. > > > > So first off you need to ask your doctor for all previous blood work > > results that he has on record for DH as well as any previous doctors > > or institutions so you can map a history for him. I have a > > spreadsheet that I designed for this purpose, has all my blood work > > for the last three years. > > > > If I were you at a minimum I'd ask for the following tests: > > > > 1) Full Liver Function Panel > > 2) Complete Blood Count (CBC) > > 3) Metabolic Panel (includes glucose and other metabolism related values) > > 4) A Hypothalamus, Pituitary, Gondadal Axis Workup including > > ----- Total T, > > ----- Bioavailable T or Free T, > > ----- SHBG (which should be part of the Liver Function Panel), > > ----- Albumin > > ----- LH > > ----- FSH > > 5) Thyroid Tests > > ----- You may want to get a series of tests to see if he's cycling > > hyper and hypo. I don't know much about this so you will have to do > > more research on this as to how to test for this properly. > > > > Hmmm, that's all I can think of off the top of my head. You may want > > to, if you haven't already, www.allthingsmale.com and get Dr. 's > > " TRT: A Recipe for Success " paper which has a good list of blood work > > to get and he describes how to interpret some of them as well. > > > > I don't think you'll be able to get your doctor to do all these tests > > but the ones I listed should be a minimum I would think. I would > > imagine that he had already done some of them in the past so if he did > > you should get those results as well so you can detect any changing > > patterns. > > > > Well, that's all I can think of right now. I understand your > > frustration and sense of urgency. He really should be seen by a > > thyroid specialist which would probably be an Endocrinologist at > > first. I'm sure he's seen them before with his thyroid issues but > > obviously they're not treating him aggressively enough to get him > > stable. Endocrinologists aren't always the best docs for hypogonadism > > but they are usually pretty good at thyroid stuff as they see more of > > those types of cases. If you can find an open minded Endo then > > sometimes you can find a good one for TRT as well. > > > > Regardless, I really think you should get his thyroid sitation under > > control first before TRT. I'm not sure TRT would releive enough of > > his symptoms to make any signifigant difference. But perhaps it's > > worth a try. > > > > Bear in mind I'm not a doctor I'm just an engineer with a science > > degree that has spent years trying to figure out what's wrong with me > > and spending countless hours reading and researching various medical > > conditions in order to determine if they applied to me. My intention > > is just to help point you in a direction so you can do some research > > yourself and/or ask your doctor questions. So I hope this helps in > > some way and I'm sorry for your situation. If you have any questions > > or if you find out more information please post it back. > > > > ASaxon > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.