Guest guest Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 This was posted by someone else with no responses. I was curious too. Can someone who knows please tell me how to dose AI's. Arimidex in this particular case. I was kinda leaning toward it might be a drug that is dosed based on body weight and not the amount of testosterone we are dealing with. I know that the maximum suppression is about 80% (i think). SO lets use that figure. Say you want maximum effectiveness scenerio.. Anyone Please...? OK, bad choice of words for thread title. Manufacturer states that 1mg / day will achieve about 75% Estrogen reduction within a day. They then go on to state that you can get up to a full 80% reduction within 2 weeks or same dosing. I would really like to see some curves with regard to estrogen suppression as it relates to different T doses.? Could it be that you can not achieve enough E suppression with taking large amounts of T? I mean to say. Percentages are percentages, Right??? BUt a 20% effective reduction of E based on 1000 mgs test /week is still gonna leave you way high right?? So are we dealing with effective proprotions, or amounts. Obivously to be " hormonally correct " , everything must be in the correct relation to each other (Estradiol counters androgens, etc..) BUT is too much E2 simply too much E2. AND where does this supply of conversion enzymes come from and what affects the amount of those available.? Is dosing relavant to body weight or the amount hormones we are working with? FURTHER, is this the best drug to try to tweek around with? Meaning, does it have a tendency to just want to do its thing and shut down 80% of all e production even in small doses. Or is it easy to obtain the desired partial response. What I am getting at is that perhaps letro could be the better drug to try to get a 25 or 50% response from???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 > > > > This was posted by someone else with no responses. I was curious too. > > > > Can someone who knows please tell me how to dose AI's. Arimidex in this particular case. I was kinda leaning toward it might be a drug that is dosed based on body weight and not the amount of testosterone we are dealing with. I know that the maximum suppression is about 80% (i think). SO lets use that figure. Say you want maximum effectiveness scenerio.. Anyone Please...? > > > > OK, bad choice of words for thread title. Manufacturer states that 1mg / day will achieve about 75% Estrogen reduction within a day. They then go on to state that you can get up to a full 80% reduction within 2 weeks or same dosing. > > > > I would really like to see some curves with regard to estrogen suppression as it relates to different T doses.? Could it be that you can not achieve enough E suppression with taking large amounts of T? I mean to say. Percentages are percentages, Right??? BUt a 20% effective reduction of E based on 1000 mgs test /week is still gonna leave you way high right?? So are we dealing with effective proprotions, or amounts. Obivously to be " hormonally correct " , everything must be in the correct relation to each other (Estradiol counters androgens, etc..) BUT is too much E2 simply too much E2. AND where does this supply of conversion enzymes come from and what affects the amount of those available.? Is dosing relavant to body weight or the amount hormones we are working with? FURTHER, is this the best drug to try to tweek around with? Meaning, does it have a tendency to just want to do its thing and shut down 80% of all e production even in small doses. Or is it easy to obtain the desired partial response. What I am getting at is that perhaps letro could be the better drug to try to get a 25 or 50% response from???? > > > > Hi, > In my personal experience the Arimidex was the most difficult thing to get right,took me over a year and it still varies now and then. I am about 270 and I ended up using 3 drops of the liquid version every other day along with 200mg DIM , one in the morning, one at night. I was always curious if the DIM actually did anything but for me it works in support of the arimidex. I ran out of DIM a couple weeks back and could definitely notice that things weren't right without it. I can't answer the technical questions, just adding my 2 cents what seems to be working for me... > Jim > I have found that progesterone works the best. It can lower E2 levels effectively and consistently. You can ask your doctor for a prescription for compounded progesterone cream 6 mg/day rubbed on your leg every night before bed. Progesterone levels typically are lower than normal because the testicles will produce less progesterone when less testostorone is produced. When levels are brought back up to normal, progesterone is very effective in an indirect way in reducing the aromatase activity in the body thus reducing estradiol to normal levels, about 25-35 pg/ml. Progesterone also just makes you feel good too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 There are no curves or testing done on how to dose arimidex for men. I one is very high say above the top of the range then do .5 mgs every 3 days until one gets his morning wood back keep doing this but if the wood stops your going to low on E2 so stop the arimidex until wood comes back then go back on it that day but do less say .25 mgs or 1/4 of a 1 mg. pill every 3 days it's not good to take it for longer then 3 days the half life is only 50 hrs. Doing arimidex every 4 days or higher can put you on a roller coaster ride and it would be harder to keep E2 at the sweet spot that is your having morning wood the kind that wakes you up every morning. There are new labs for men by Quest but they are having problems with the machine men are getting levels of <2 range <29 so as far as I know in my area it's fixed. If your SHBG is low say 20 keep your E2 at about 10 to 15 on the range of <29. For the old test range 13 to 54 try to keep your E2 if your SHBG is mid range at between 20 to 30. The lower your SHBG is the lower you can keep your E2. Keep a log on how you feel when to high or to low a lot of times I thought I was to low and labs showed me to high. It's hard to keep a handle on this. When I am to high I lose morning wood and get ED, feel hot and have panic attacks in the middle of the night and break out in a rash under my arms and between my little toe. To low my joints hurt and click I lose morning wood and get some bad ED the kind a pill will not help. Everyone is different so feel different when E2 is to high or to low. To high made my prostate swell had this problem for yrs. and it was high E2. Co-Moderator Phil > From: <brianee93@...> > Subject: Arimidex Dosing > > Date: Monday, May 4, 2009, 6:22 PM > This was posted by someone else with no responses. I was > curious too. > > Can someone who knows please tell me how to dose AI's. > Arimidex in this particular case. I was kinda leaning toward > it might be a drug that is dosed based on body weight and > not the amount of testosterone we are dealing with. I know > that the maximum suppression is about 80% (i think). SO lets > use that figure. Say you want maximum effectiveness > scenerio.. Anyone Please...? > > OK, bad choice of words for thread title. Manufacturer > states that 1mg / day will achieve about 75% Estrogen > reduction within a day. They then go on to state that you > can get up to a full 80% reduction within 2 weeks or same > dosing. > > I would really like to see some curves with regard to > estrogen suppression as it relates to different T doses.? > Could it be that you can not achieve enough E suppression > with taking large amounts of T? I mean to say. Percentages > are percentages, Right??? BUt a 20% effective reduction of E > based on 1000 mgs test /week is still gonna leave you way > high right?? So are we dealing with effective proprotions, > or amounts. Obivously to be " hormonally correct " , > everything must be in the correct relation to each other > (Estradiol counters androgens, etc..) BUT is too much E2 > simply too much E2. AND where does this supply of conversion > enzymes come from and what affects the amount of those > available.? Is dosing relavant to body weight or the amount > hormones we are working with? FURTHER, is this the best drug > to try to tweek around with? Meaning, does it have a > tendency to just want to do its thing and shut down 80% of > all e production even in small doses. Or is it easy to > obtain the desired partial response. What I am getting at is > that perhaps letro could be the better drug to try to get a > 25 or 50% response from???? > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 I just read this on a forum and copied it over. I was just curious if your Arimidex amounts need to increase with the amount of Test. or if the amount that converts is pretty consistent due to limited aromatase? ________________________________ From: Randy Hoops <Randy@...> Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2009 8:45:58 AM Subject: Re: Arimidex Dosing 1000 mg of T is an awful lot. The normal dose would be 100 mg a week, so you are hitting it very hard. Are you doing this on a short term " cycle " or continuing it for some longer time? In any case that dosage puts you in the category of a home science experiment. The aromatase enzyme resides mostly in adipose(fat) tissue so the more of that you have the more likely you are to have conversion of T to E2. The 1 mg / day dosage is for women with cancer. A typical effective dose for a man would be 1/4 mg every other day. I've read scientific papers that indicate that increasing the dose of Arimidex beyond a certain point doesn't seem to reduce E2 any more. i.e. 1/2 mg is as effective as 1 mg. If you are taking 10 X the usual dose of T, then there certainly will be plenty of " fuel " to make more estradiol. I would think that the T:E2 ratio is the important thing, and if you have very high levels of T, you would want a fairly high level of E2, to match. All this begs the question.... What are you trying to accomplish? > > I would really like to see some curves with regard to estrogen suppression as it relates to different T doses.? Could it be that you can not achieve enough E suppression with taking large amounts of T? I mean to say. Percentages are percentages, Right??? BUt a 20% effective reduction of E based on 1000 mgs test /week is still gonna leave you way high right?? So are we dealing with effective proprotions, or amounts. Obivously to be " hormonally correct " , everything must be in the correct relation to each other (Estradiol counters androgens, etc..) BUT is too much E2 simply too much E2. AND where does this supply of conversion enzymes come from and what affects the amount of those available.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 > > > > > > This was posted by someone else with no responses. I was curious too. > > > > > > Can someone who knows please tell me how to dose AI's. Arimidex in this particular case. I was kinda leaning toward it might be a drug that is dosed based on body weight and not the amount of testosterone we are dealing with. I know that the maximum suppression is about 80% (i think). SO lets use that figure. Say you want maximum effectiveness scenerio.. Anyone Please...? > > > > > > OK, bad choice of words for thread title. Manufacturer states that 1mg / day will achieve about 75% Estrogen reduction within a day. They then go on to state that you can get up to a full 80% reduction within 2 weeks or same dosing. > > > > > > I would really like to see some curves with regard to estrogen suppression as it relates to different T doses.? Could it be that you can not achieve enough E suppression with taking large amounts of T? I mean to say. Percentages are percentages, Right??? BUt a 20% effective reduction of E based on 1000 mgs test /week is still gonna leave you way high right?? So are we dealing with effective proprotions, or amounts. Obivously to be " hormonally correct " , everything must be in the correct relation to each other (Estradiol counters androgens, etc..) BUT is too much E2 simply too much E2. AND where does this supply of conversion enzymes come from and what affects the amount of those available.? Is dosing relavant to body weight or the amount hormones we are working with? FURTHER, is this the best drug to try to tweek around with? Meaning, does it have a tendency to just want to do its thing and shut down 80% of all e production even in small doses. Or is it easy to obtain the desired partial response. What I am getting at is that perhaps letro could be the better drug to try to get a 25 or 50% response from???? > > > > > > > Hi, > > In my personal experience the Arimidex was the most difficult thing to get right,took me over a year and it still varies now and then. I am about 270 and I ended up using 3 drops of the liquid version every other day along with 200mg DIM , one in the morning, one at night. I was always curious if the DIM actually did anything but for me it works in support of the arimidex. I ran out of DIM a couple weeks back and could definitely notice that things weren't right without it. I can't answer the technical questions, just adding my 2 cents what seems to be working for me... > > Jim > > > I have found that progesterone works the best. It can lower E2 levels effectively and consistently. You can ask your doctor for a prescription for compounded progesterone cream 6 mg/day rubbed on your leg every night before bed. Progesterone levels typically are lower than normal because the testicles will produce less progesterone when less testostorone is produced. When levels are brought back up to normal, progesterone is very effective in an indirect way in reducing the aromatase activity in the body thus reducing estradiol to normal levels, about 25-35 pg/ml. > > Progesterone also just makes you feel good too. > Thanks for sharing, Beth. I'm curious- does taking progesterone modify the amount of TRT needed, since progestins ( & perhaps progesterone by extension) can prevent testosterone from binding to androgen receptors? Or is this only a concern at a much higher dose of progesterone? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_receptor) ~Xian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 On Mon, 04 May 2009 22:22:37 -0000, you wrote: >This was posted by someone else with no responses. I was curious too. > >Can someone who knows please tell me how to dose AI's. Arimidex in this particular case. I was kinda leaning toward it might be a drug that is dosed based on body weight and not the amount of testosterone we are dealing with. I know that the maximum suppression is about 80% (i think). SO lets use that figure. Say you want maximum effectiveness scenerio.. Anyone Please...? > >OK, bad choice of words for thread title. Manufacturer states that 1mg / day will achieve about 75% Estrogen reduction within a day. They then go on to state that you can get up to a full 80% reduction within 2 weeks or same dosing. > >I would really like to see some curves with regard to estrogen suppression as it relates to different T doses.? Could it be that you can not achieve enough E suppression with taking large amounts of T? I mean to say. Percentages are percentages, Right??? BUt a 20% effective reduction of E based on 1000 mgs test /week is still gonna leave you way high right?? So are we dealing with effective proprotions, or amounts. Obivously to be " hormonally correct " , everything must be in the correct relation to each other (Estradiol counters androgens, etc..) BUT is too much E2 simply too much E2. AND where does this supply of conversion enzymes come from and what affects the amount of those available.? Is dosing relavant to body weight or the amount hormones we are working with? FURTHER, is this the best drug to try to tweek around with? Meaning, does it have a tendency to just want to do its thing and shut down 80% of all e production even in small doses. Or is it easy to obtain the desired >partial response. What I am getting at is that perhaps letro could be the better drug to try to get a 25 or 50% response from???? The dosing info is based on women with much higher E2 levels. And then it's prescribed as a cancer medicine to reduce e2 impact on breast tumors. Men need to be far more stingy with it. I usually to 1/2 mg - 1/2 a tablet when I start and then 1/4 tablet every other day or every third day. I gauge by morning wood, erection hardness, and for me - my prostate is at a point where with high e2 I have flow restrictions, arimidex frees it up. SO for me urine flow is my primary indicator. Low E2 is even worse than high e2 for what it does to mental clarity, mood, and libido. If you crash your e2 too low - under 10 - it's a mess. I shoot for 20 to 30 units for E2 in US measurements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2009 Report Share Posted May 6, 2009 > > > > > > I would really like to see some curves with regard to > > estrogen suppression as it relates to different T doses.? > > Could it be that you can not achieve enough E suppression > > with taking large amounts of T? I mean to say. Percentages > > are percentages, Right??? BUt a 20% effective reduction of E > > based on 1000 mgs test /week is still gonna leave you way > > high right?? So are we dealing with effective proprotions, > > or amounts. Obivously to be " hormonally correct " , > > everything must be in the correct relation to each other > > (Estradiol counters androgens, etc..) BUT is too much E2 > > simply too much E2. AND where does this supply of conversion > > enzymes come from and what affects the amount of those > > available.? > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2009 Report Share Posted May 6, 2009 Not me. This was just a hypothetical post on a forum. I was just curious too if AI needs to move up and down with the amount of Test. ________________________________ From: jbbooks1901 <jbbooks1901@...> Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2009 10:23:59 PM Subject: Re: Arimidex Dosing > > I would really like to see some curves with regard to > > estrogen suppression as it relates to different T doses.? > > Could it be that you can not achieve enough E suppression > > with taking large amounts of T? I mean to say. Percentages > > are percentages, Right??? BUt a 20% effective reduction of E > > based on 1000 mgs test /week is still gonna leave you way > > high right?? So are we dealing with effective proprotions, > > or amounts. Hi, ok... if you're doing a gram a week of test you're in the BB world. and really... you should consider less Test and stacking with something else... deca or primo maybe... fewer sides... but this really isn't the group for that. IP China does 1/4mg tabs for example for daily use... and we both know that IP caters to the BB market. there is evidence that more than that really doesn't help any more than 1/2 or 1mg... though I've heard of NYC " leading edge " practitioners prescribing 1mg of arimidex a day with NO supplemental test. really though... a gram of test a week is to much. (unless you just messed up your math... 1000mg would be 5 full CC shots of the standard 200mg/ml testosterone depot) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2009 Report Share Posted May 6, 2009 Yes but only if you have a problem with E2 I do yet if I do a lower dose of T my joints and muscles hurt big time so for me it's a small price to pay to not be in pain to control E2. Co-Moderator Phil > From: Thornton <brianee93@...> > Subject: Re: Re: Arimidex Dosing > > Date: Wednesday, May 6, 2009, 9:50 AM > Not me. This was just a hypothetical post on a forum. I was > just curious too if AI needs to move up and down with the > amount of Test. > > > > > ________________________________ > From: jbbooks1901 <jbbooks1901@...> > > Sent: Tuesday, May 5, 2009 10:23:59 PM > Subject: Re: Arimidex Dosing > > > > > > > > > I would really like to see some curves with > regard to > > > estrogen suppression as it relates to different T > doses.? > > > Could it be that you can not achieve enough E > suppression > > > with taking large amounts of T? I mean to say. > Percentages > > > are percentages, Right??? BUt a 20% effective > reduction of E > > > based on 1000 mgs test /week is still gonna leave > you way > > > high right?? So are we dealing with effective > proprotions, > > > or amounts. > > Hi, > > ok... if you're doing a gram a week of test you're > in the BB world. > > and really... you should consider less Test and stacking > with something else... deca or primo maybe... fewer sides... > but this really isn't the group for that. > > IP China does 1/4mg tabs for example for daily use... and > we both know that IP caters to the BB market. > > there is evidence that more than that really doesn't > help any more than 1/2 or 1mg... > > though I've heard of NYC " leading edge " > practitioners prescribing 1mg of arimidex a day with NO > supplemental test. > > really though... a gram of test a week is to much. > > (unless you just messed up your math... 1000mg would be 5 > full CC shots of the standard 200mg/ml testosterone depot) > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2009 Report Share Posted May 31, 2009 > > > > > > > > This was posted by someone else with no responses. I was curious too. > > > > > > > > Can someone who knows please tell me how to dose AI's. Arimidex in this particular case. I was kinda leaning toward it might be a drug that is dosed based on body weight and not the amount of testosterone we are dealing with. I know that the maximum suppression is about 80% (i think). SO lets use that figure. Say you want maximum effectiveness scenerio.. Anyone Please...? > > > > > > > > OK, bad choice of words for thread title. Manufacturer states that 1mg / day will achieve about 75% Estrogen reduction within a day. They then go on to state that you can get up to a full 80% reduction within 2 weeks or same dosing. > > > > > > > > I would really like to see some curves with regard to estrogen suppression as it relates to different T doses.? Could it be that you can not achieve enough E suppression with taking large amounts of T? I mean to say. Percentages are percentages, Right??? BUt a 20% effective reduction of E based on 1000 mgs test /week is still gonna leave you way high right?? So are we dealing with effective proprotions, or amounts. Obivously to be " hormonally correct " , everything must be in the correct relation to each other (Estradiol counters androgens, etc..) BUT is too much E2 simply too much E2. AND where does this supply of conversion enzymes come from and what affects the amount of those available.? Is dosing relavant to body weight or the amount hormones we are working with? FURTHER, is this the best drug to try to tweek around with? Meaning, does it have a tendency to just want to do its thing and shut down 80% of all e production even in small doses. Or is it easy to obtain the desired partial response. What I am getting at is that perhaps letro could be the better drug to try to get a 25 or 50% response from???? > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > In my personal experience the Arimidex was the most difficult thing to get right,took me over a year and it still varies now and then. I am about 270 and I ended up using 3 drops of the liquid version every other day along with 200mg DIM , one in the morning, one at night. I was always curious if the DIM actually did anything but for me it works in support of the arimidex. I ran out of DIM a couple weeks back and could definitely notice that things weren't right without it. I can't answer the technical questions, just adding my 2 cents what seems to be working for me... > > > Jim > > > > > I have found that progesterone works the best. It can lower E2 levels effectively and consistently. You can ask your doctor for a prescription for compounded progesterone cream 6 mg/day rubbed on your leg every night before bed. Progesterone levels typically are lower than normal because the testicles will produce less progesterone when less testostorone is produced. When levels are brought back up to normal, progesterone is very effective in an indirect way in reducing the aromatase activity in the body thus reducing estradiol to normal levels, about 25-35 pg/ml. > > > > Progesterone also just makes you feel good too. > > > > Thanks for sharing, Beth. I'm curious- does taking progesterone modify the amount of TRT needed, since progestins ( & perhaps progesterone by extension) can prevent testosterone from binding to androgen receptors? Or is this only a concern at a much higher dose of progesterone? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_receptor) > > ~Xian > Hi Xian, Sorry it took me so long to respond. It has been my experience that more T is not needed when progesterone is raised to normal levels, approx. 1,000-2000 pg/ml, the levels expected of normal testicular function. When progesterone is raised to normal levels it will inhibit aromatase activity induced by another hormone, cortisol which is why estradiol levels drop. Also, progesterone will inhibit conversion of T to DHT. Limiting this conversion helps to slow balding which is due to excess levels of DHT. You can try progesterone cream on your own. You can Google " USP Progesterone " and find these products. Look at the labels and calculate how much would deliver approx 3-6 mg and apply nightly as progesterone can make you drowsy. Beth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 I find this topic coming up a lot and need to warn men not to add Progesterone to there body. Here is what Dr. says about doing this. (Funny, when you take PREG, your PROG may rise, but it doesn't cause feminization. But if you give straight PROG, bad things happen.) and here is more. (But you can still reason things out, and apply good 'ol Farner's Logic. There is not one valid study that proves men should take PROG. And many which prove he should not. Simple, irrefutable facts: PROG elevates SHBG Suppresses the HPTA Causes gynocomastia Causes impotence ....all feminizing features of a hormone. __________________ www.AllThingsMale.com Any information I may provide does not substitute for a proper medical evaluation by a medical professional; nor does it constitute doctor/patient relationship, or liability, in any way.) ========================================================================== Dr. treats a ton of men for all kinds of low Testosterone and has been posting answers to men's posts at a lot of forums. In all the yrs I have read his replies to men every one that did Progesterone ended up with big problems. There is a lot of crap on the web about taking this but not one good study shows this helps men. Here is what one dam good DR. says about it. ========================================================================== Originally Posted by marianco To examine the possible side effects of Progesterone, one has to look at Progesterone's roles. Progesterone is a precursor for testosterone, estradiol, cortisol, aldosterone, and allopregnenolone and allopregnanolone, etc.. Progesterone is broken down to Pregnanediol (inactive) after it is used. Progesterone is the precursor for testosterone in the testes. Increasing testosterone production requires increasing production of progesterone, its precursor. HCG can increase progesterone production in men. If the increase in progesterone leads to an increase in testosterone, this can have good or bad effects. Bad effects include slowing down the adrenal glands when one already has adrenal fatigue, excessive acne or hair loss, etc. Progesterone is a precursor for estradiol. Progesterone also increases the number of estrogen receptors. Either one can lead to signs of excessive estrogen signaling (e.g. gynecomastia, aggressiveness, fatigue (from lowered thyroid hormone in response to increased estrogen signaling), loss of libido, etc. even if Estradiol is controlled (since the signal is stronger when there are more estrogen receptors). Progesterone is a precursor for Cortisol. In women, it is a good replacement for hydrocortisone (cortisol). Generally, this doesn't lead to excessive Cortisol, since cortisol is made on demand. Progesterone is a precursor for Aldosterone. This usually doesn't lead to an excess in Aldosterone since Aldosterone has other controls - such as salt-balance. Progesterone is a precursor for Allopregnenolone (both in brain and liver), and Allopregnanolone (in brain). Allopregnanolone is neuroprotective. This is how Progesterone can be useful in stroke - to reduce nervous system damage from a stroke. Allopregnenolone increases GABA receptor sensitivity to GABA. This is how Progesterone helps reduce norepinephrine signaling, how Progesterone can be sedating and anti-anxiety, and how Progesterone can be used as an antiseizure medication. Excessive allopregnenolone can cause excessive sleepiness, loss of libido (since libido also depends on adequate but not excessive norepinephrine signaling - which gives us sexual excitement), impaired concentration, fatigue (since norepinephrine also is a signal for energy on demand), etc. Progesterone also reduces estradiol's inhibitory effect on thyroid hormone. I speculate that this may involve reducing thyroid binding protein production. Thus, possibly this can lead to excess thyroid signaling for those sensitive to thyroid signaling - such as those with adrenal fatigue. Progesterone also may reduce blood pressure. Dizziness may result from excess. Progesterone is also a 5-alpha-reductase. This blocks testosterone to DHT conversion. Excessive progesterone may thus mean a reduction in body hair, acne, etc. - among other actions of DHT. I suppose you mean a 24-hour Urine Steroid Hormone Profile from RheinLabs.com when you say " rhein's test " . I suppose you mean transdermal when you wrote " TD pregnenolone. " Taking pregnenolone before a 24-hour urine hormone profile depends on whether or not you want to see the effects of pregnenolone on one's hormone metabolism. You would need a before an after test. Since Pregnenolone is a precursor for nearly all of the substances tested, it can raise the level of any one of the substances it is a precursor to. Depending on the person, this may mean elevated testosterone and precursors or elevated progesterone and Pregnanediol, elevated Cortisol, or any other one or a combination of these signals/hormones. If one has ongoing treatment with Pregnenolone, then it would be useful to monitor its effects on hormone production by taking it while undergoing the hormone profile test. For example, I would want to know if Pregnenolone is converting excessively to Estradiol, resulting in destabilization of mood in some patients or impaired muscle mass gain in others. Cheers. ========================================================================== Pregnenolone is the starting point from which all steroid hormones are manufactured in our bodies. Its conversion in the body follows different pathways, depending on individual needs. Dr. has his me take this in a cream. Co-Moderator Phil > Hi Xian, > > Sorry it took me so long to respond. > > It has been my experience that more T is not needed when > progesterone is raised to normal levels, approx. 1,000-2000 > pg/ml, the levels expected of normal testicular function. > When progesterone is raised to normal levels it will inhibit > aromatase activity induced by another hormone, cortisol > which is why estradiol levels drop. Also, progesterone will > inhibit conversion of T to DHT. Limiting this conversion > helps to slow balding which is due to excess levels of DHT. > > You can try progesterone cream on your own. You can Google > " USP Progesterone " and find these products. Look at the > labels and calculate how much would deliver approx 3-6 mg > and apply nightly as progesterone can make you drowsy. > > Beth > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 Hi,I have one thing to add to this. DO NOT take oral pregnenolone. I did this about a year ago and it put my progesterone up about 8X the top end of the range. I felt like an impotent zombie. Dr. said to take the cream as this will help things but I repeat, DO NOT take pregnenolone orally.... Jim > > > I find this topic coming up a lot and need to warn men not to add Progesterone to there body. > Here is what Dr. says about doing this. (Funny, when you take PREG, your PROG may rise, but it doesn't cause feminization. But if you give straight PROG, bad things happen.) and here is more. > (But you can still reason things out, and apply good 'ol Farner's Logic. > > There is not one valid study that proves men should take PROG. And many which prove he should not. > > Simple, irrefutable facts: > > PROG elevates SHBG > Suppresses the HPTA > Causes gynocomastia > Causes impotence > > ...all feminizing features of a hormone. > __________________ > www.AllThingsMale.com > > Any information I may provide does not substitute for a proper medical evaluation by a medical professional; nor does it constitute doctor/patient relationship, or liability, in any way.) > ========================================================================== > > Dr. treats a ton of men for all kinds of low Testosterone and has been posting answers to men's posts at a lot of forums. In all the yrs I have read his replies to men every one that did Progesterone ended up with big problems. > > There is a lot of crap on the web about taking this but not one good study shows this helps men. > > Here is what one dam good DR. says about it. > ========================================================================== > Originally Posted by marianco > To examine the possible side effects of Progesterone, one has to look at Progesterone's roles. > > Progesterone is a precursor for testosterone, estradiol, cortisol, aldosterone, and allopregnenolone and allopregnanolone, etc.. Progesterone is broken down to Pregnanediol (inactive) after it is used. > > Progesterone is the precursor for testosterone in the testes. Increasing testosterone production requires increasing production of progesterone, its precursor. HCG can increase progesterone production in men. If the increase in progesterone leads to an increase in testosterone, this can have good or bad effects. Bad effects include slowing down the adrenal glands when one already has adrenal fatigue, excessive acne or hair loss, etc. > > Progesterone is a precursor for estradiol. Progesterone also increases the number of estrogen receptors. Either one can lead to signs of excessive estrogen signaling (e.g. gynecomastia, aggressiveness, fatigue (from lowered thyroid hormone in response to increased estrogen signaling), loss of libido, etc. even if Estradiol is controlled (since the signal is stronger when there are more estrogen receptors). > > Progesterone is a precursor for Cortisol. In women, it is a good replacement for hydrocortisone (cortisol). Generally, this doesn't lead to excessive Cortisol, since cortisol is made on demand. > > Progesterone is a precursor for Aldosterone. This usually doesn't lead to an excess in Aldosterone since Aldosterone has other controls - such as salt-balance. > > Progesterone is a precursor for Allopregnenolone (both in brain and liver), and Allopregnanolone (in brain). Allopregnanolone is neuroprotective. This is how Progesterone can be useful in stroke - to reduce nervous system damage from a stroke. Allopregnenolone increases GABA receptor sensitivity to GABA. This is how Progesterone helps reduce norepinephrine signaling, how Progesterone can be sedating and anti-anxiety, and how Progesterone can be used as an antiseizure medication. Excessive allopregnenolone can cause excessive sleepiness, loss of libido (since libido also depends on adequate but not excessive norepinephrine signaling - which gives us sexual excitement), impaired concentration, fatigue (since norepinephrine also is a signal for energy on demand), etc. > > Progesterone also reduces estradiol's inhibitory effect on thyroid hormone. I speculate that this may involve reducing thyroid binding protein production. Thus, possibly this can lead to excess thyroid signaling for those sensitive to thyroid signaling - such as those with adrenal fatigue. > > Progesterone also may reduce blood pressure. Dizziness may result from excess. > > Progesterone is also a 5-alpha-reductase. This blocks testosterone to DHT conversion. Excessive progesterone may thus mean a reduction in body hair, acne, etc. - among other actions of DHT. > > I suppose you mean a 24-hour Urine Steroid Hormone Profile from RheinLabs.com when you say " rhein's test " . > > I suppose you mean transdermal when you wrote " TD pregnenolone. " > > Taking pregnenolone before a 24-hour urine hormone profile depends on whether or not you want to see the effects of pregnenolone on one's hormone metabolism. You would need a before an after test. > > Since Pregnenolone is a precursor for nearly all of the substances tested, it can raise the level of any one of the substances it is a precursor to. Depending on the person, this may mean elevated testosterone and precursors or elevated progesterone and Pregnanediol, elevated Cortisol, or any other one or a combination of these signals/hormones. > > If one has ongoing treatment with Pregnenolone, then it would be useful to monitor its effects on hormone production by taking it while undergoing the hormone profile test. For example, I would want to know if Pregnenolone is converting excessively to Estradiol, resulting in destabilization of mood in some patients or impaired muscle mass gain in others. > > Cheers. > ========================================================================== > Pregnenolone is the starting point from which all steroid hormones are manufactured in our bodies. Its conversion in the body follows different pathways, depending on individual needs. Dr. has his me take this in a cream. > > > Co-Moderator > Phil > > > > Hi Xian, > > > > Sorry it took me so long to respond. > > > > It has been my experience that more T is not needed when > > progesterone is raised to normal levels, approx. 1,000-2000 > > pg/ml, the levels expected of normal testicular function. > > When progesterone is raised to normal levels it will inhibit > > aromatase activity induced by another hormone, cortisol > > which is why estradiol levels drop. Also, progesterone will > > inhibit conversion of T to DHT. Limiting this conversion > > helps to slow balding which is due to excess levels of DHT. > > > > You can try progesterone cream on your own. You can Google > > " USP Progesterone " and find these products. Look at the > > labels and calculate how much would deliver approx 3-6 mg > > and apply nightly as progesterone can make you drowsy. > > > > Beth > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 Yes I learned this the hard way I can't take even the cream I do a lot of HCG and when I take Pre. it drives up my Estradiol levels. I check my Pro. levels and keep them down when on HCG testing Pro. tells you if your Pre. is going to high. Dr. says labs are not good testing Pre. in men. Co-Moderator Phil > From: jimdetroit <jmosrite@...> > Subject: Re: Arimidex Dosing > > Date: Monday, June 1, 2009, 1:45 PM > Hi,I have one thing to add to this. > DO NOT take oral pregnenolone. I did this about a year ago > and it put my progesterone up about 8X the top end of the > range. I felt like an impotent zombie. Dr. said > to take the cream as this will help things but I > repeat, DO NOT take pregnenolone orally.... > Jim > > > > > > > > I find this topic coming up a lot and need to warn men > not to add Progesterone to there body. > > Here is what Dr. says about doing this. (Funny, > when you take PREG, your PROG may rise, but it doesn't cause > feminization. But if you give straight PROG, bad things > happen.) and here is more. > > (But you can still reason things out, and apply good > 'ol Farner's Logic. > > > > There is not one valid study that proves men should > take PROG. And many which prove he should not. > > > > Simple, irrefutable facts: > > > > PROG elevates SHBG > > Suppresses the HPTA > > Causes gynocomastia > > Causes impotence > > > > ...all feminizing features of a hormone. > > __________________ > > www.AllThingsMale.com > > > > Any information I may provide does not substitute for > a proper medical evaluation by a medical professional; nor > does it constitute doctor/patient relationship, or > liability, in any way.) > > > ========================================================================== > > > > Dr. treats a ton of men for all kinds of low > Testosterone and has been posting answers to men's posts at > a lot of forums. In all the yrs I have read his > replies to men every one that did Progesterone ended up with > big problems. > > > > There is a lot of crap on the web about taking this > but not one good study shows this helps men. > > > > Here is what one dam good DR. says about it. > > > ========================================================================== > > Originally Posted by marianco > > To examine the possible side effects of Progesterone, > one has to look at Progesterone's roles. > > > > Progesterone is a precursor for testosterone, > estradiol, cortisol, aldosterone, and allopregnenolone and > allopregnanolone, etc.. Progesterone is broken down to > Pregnanediol (inactive) after it is used. > > > > Progesterone is the precursor for testosterone in the > testes. Increasing testosterone production requires > increasing production of progesterone, its precursor. HCG > can increase progesterone production in men. If the increase > in progesterone leads to an increase in testosterone, this > can have good or bad effects. Bad effects include slowing > down the adrenal glands when one already has adrenal > fatigue, excessive acne or hair loss, etc. > > > > Progesterone is a precursor for estradiol. > Progesterone also increases the number of estrogen > receptors. Either one can lead to signs of excessive > estrogen signaling (e.g. gynecomastia, aggressiveness, > fatigue (from lowered thyroid hormone in response to > increased estrogen signaling), loss of libido, etc. even if > Estradiol is controlled (since the signal is stronger when > there are more estrogen receptors). > > > > Progesterone is a precursor for Cortisol. In women, it > is a good replacement for hydrocortisone (cortisol). > Generally, this doesn't lead to excessive Cortisol, since > cortisol is made on demand. > > > > Progesterone is a precursor for Aldosterone. This > usually doesn't lead to an excess in Aldosterone since > Aldosterone has other controls - such as salt-balance. > > > > Progesterone is a precursor for Allopregnenolone (both > in brain and liver), and Allopregnanolone (in brain). > Allopregnanolone is neuroprotective. This is how > Progesterone can be useful in stroke - to reduce nervous > system damage from a stroke. Allopregnenolone increases GABA > receptor sensitivity to GABA. This is how Progesterone helps > reduce norepinephrine signaling, how Progesterone can be > sedating and anti-anxiety, and how Progesterone can be used > as an antiseizure medication. Excessive allopregnenolone can > cause excessive sleepiness, loss of libido (since libido > also depends on adequate but not excessive norepinephrine > signaling - which gives us sexual excitement), impaired > concentration, fatigue (since norepinephrine also is a > signal for energy on demand), etc. > > > > Progesterone also reduces estradiol's inhibitory > effect on thyroid hormone. I speculate that this may involve > reducing thyroid binding protein production. Thus, possibly > this can lead to excess thyroid signaling for those > sensitive to thyroid signaling - such as those with adrenal > fatigue. > > > > Progesterone also may reduce blood pressure. Dizziness > may result from excess. > > > > Progesterone is also a 5-alpha-reductase. This blocks > testosterone to DHT conversion. Excessive progesterone may > thus mean a reduction in body hair, acne, etc. - among other > actions of DHT. > > > > I suppose you mean a 24-hour Urine Steroid Hormone > Profile from RheinLabs.com when you say " rhein's test " . > > > > I suppose you mean transdermal when you wrote " TD > pregnenolone. " > > > > Taking pregnenolone before a 24-hour urine hormone > profile depends on whether or not you want to see the > effects of pregnenolone on one's hormone metabolism. You > would need a before an after test. > > > > Since Pregnenolone is a precursor for nearly all of > the substances tested, it can raise the level of any one of > the substances it is a precursor to. Depending on the > person, this may mean elevated testosterone and precursors > or elevated progesterone and Pregnanediol, elevated > Cortisol, or any other one or a combination of these > signals/hormones. > > > > If one has ongoing treatment with Pregnenolone, then > it would be useful to monitor its effects on hormone > production by taking it while undergoing the hormone profile > test. For example, I would want to know if Pregnenolone is > converting excessively to Estradiol, resulting in > destabilization of mood in some patients or impaired muscle > mass gain in others. > > > > Cheers. > > > ========================================================================== > > Pregnenolone is the starting point from which all > steroid hormones are manufactured in our bodies. Its > conversion in the body follows different pathways, depending > on individual needs. Dr. has his me take this in > a cream. > > > > > > Co-Moderator > > Phil > > > > > > > Hi Xian, > > > > > > Sorry it took me so long to respond. > > > > > > It has been my experience that more T is not > needed when > > > progesterone is raised to normal levels, approx. > 1,000-2000 > > > pg/ml, the levels expected of normal testicular > function. > > > When progesterone is raised to normal levels it > will inhibit > > > aromatase activity induced by another hormone, > cortisol > > > which is why estradiol levels drop. Also, > progesterone will > > > inhibit conversion of T to DHT. Limiting this > conversion > > > helps to slow balding which is due to excess > levels of DHT. > > > > > > You can try progesterone cream on your own. You > can Google > > > " USP Progesterone " and find these products. Look > at the > > > labels and calculate how much would deliver > approx 3-6 mg > > > and apply nightly as progesterone can make you > drowsy. > > > > > > Beth > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 I take at 33 mg/day of pregnenolone and don't have any issues that I can determine. It has no effect on Total T or Free T, DHEAs, E2, etc. It's part of the Cognitex product that lef.org sells. One can get it without the pregnenolone. Cognitex with Pregnenolone & NeuroProtection Complex http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/item00922.html Steve jimdetroit wrote: > Hi,I have one thing to add to this. DO NOT take oral pregnenolone. I did this about a year ago and it put my progesterone up about 8X the top end of the range. I felt like an impotent zombie. Dr. said to take the cream as this will help things but I repeat, DO NOT take pregnenolone orally.... > Jim > > >> >> I find this topic coming up a lot and need to warn men not to add Progesterone to there body. >> Here is what Dr. says about doing this. (Funny, when you take PREG, your PROG may rise, but it doesn't cause feminization. But if you give straight PROG, bad things happen.) and here is more. >> (But you can still reason things out, and apply good 'ol Farner's Logic. >> >> There is not one valid study that proves men should take PROG. And many which prove he should not. >> >> Simple, irrefutable facts: >> >> PROG elevates SHBG >> Suppresses the HPTA >> Causes gynocomastia >> Causes impotence >> >> ...all feminizing features of a hormone. >> __________________ >> www.AllThingsMale.com >> >> Any information I may provide does not substitute for a proper medical evaluation by a medical professional; nor does it constitute doctor/patient relationship, or liability, in any way.) >> ========================================================================== >> >> Dr. treats a ton of men for all kinds of low Testosterone and has been posting answers to men's posts at a lot of forums. In all the yrs I have read his replies to men every one that did Progesterone ended up with big problems. >> >> There is a lot of crap on the web about taking this but not one good study shows this helps men. >> >> Here is what one dam good DR. says about it. >> ========================================================================== >> Originally Posted by marianco >> To examine the possible side effects of Progesterone, one has to look at Progesterone's roles. >> >> Progesterone is a precursor for testosterone, estradiol, cortisol, aldosterone, and allopregnenolone and allopregnanolone, etc.. Progesterone is broken down to Pregnanediol (inactive) after it is used. >> >> Progesterone is the precursor for testosterone in the testes. Increasing testosterone production requires increasing production of progesterone, its precursor. HCG can increase progesterone production in men. If the increase in progesterone leads to an increase in testosterone, this can have good or bad effects. Bad effects include slowing down the adrenal glands when one already has adrenal fatigue, excessive acne or hair loss, etc. >> >> Progesterone is a precursor for estradiol. Progesterone also increases the number of estrogen receptors. Either one can lead to signs of excessive estrogen signaling (e.g. gynecomastia, aggressiveness, fatigue (from lowered thyroid hormone in response to increased estrogen signaling), loss of libido, etc. even if Estradiol is controlled (since the signal is stronger when there are more estrogen receptors). >> >> Progesterone is a precursor for Cortisol. In women, it is a good replacement for hydrocortisone (cortisol). Generally, this doesn't lead to excessive Cortisol, since cortisol is made on demand. >> >> Progesterone is a precursor for Aldosterone. This usually doesn't lead to an excess in Aldosterone since Aldosterone has other controls - such as salt-balance. >> >> Progesterone is a precursor for Allopregnenolone (both in brain and liver), and Allopregnanolone (in brain). Allopregnanolone is neuroprotective. This is how Progesterone can be useful in stroke - to reduce nervous system damage from a stroke. Allopregnenolone increases GABA receptor sensitivity to GABA. This is how Progesterone helps reduce norepinephrine signaling, how Progesterone can be sedating and anti-anxiety, and how Progesterone can be used as an antiseizure medication. Excessive allopregnenolone can cause excessive sleepiness, loss of libido (since libido also depends on adequate but not excessive norepinephrine signaling - which gives us sexual excitement), impaired concentration, fatigue (since norepinephrine also is a signal for energy on demand), etc. >> >> Progesterone also reduces estradiol's inhibitory effect on thyroid hormone. I speculate that this may involve reducing thyroid binding protein production. Thus, possibly this can lead to excess thyroid signaling for those sensitive to thyroid signaling - such as those with adrenal fatigue. >> >> Progesterone also may reduce blood pressure. Dizziness may result from excess. >> >> Progesterone is also a 5-alpha-reductase. This blocks testosterone to DHT conversion. Excessive progesterone may thus mean a reduction in body hair, acne, etc. - among other actions of DHT. >> >> I suppose you mean a 24-hour Urine Steroid Hormone Profile from RheinLabs.com when you say " rhein's test " . >> >> I suppose you mean transdermal when you wrote " TD pregnenolone. " >> >> Taking pregnenolone before a 24-hour urine hormone profile depends on whether or not you want to see the effects of pregnenolone on one's hormone metabolism. You would need a before an after test. >> >> Since Pregnenolone is a precursor for nearly all of the substances tested, it can raise the level of any one of the substances it is a precursor to. Depending on the person, this may mean elevated testosterone and precursors or elevated progesterone and Pregnanediol, elevated Cortisol, or any other one or a combination of these signals/hormones. >> >> If one has ongoing treatment with Pregnenolone, then it would be useful to monitor its effects on hormone production by taking it while undergoing the hormone profile test. For example, I would want to know if Pregnenolone is converting excessively to Estradiol, resulting in destabilization of mood in some patients or impaired muscle mass gain in others. >> >> Cheers. >> ========================================================================== >> Pregnenolone is the starting point from which all steroid hormones are manufactured in our bodies. Its conversion in the body follows different pathways, depending on individual needs. Dr. has his me take this in a cream. >> >> >> Co-Moderator >> Phil -- Steve - dudescholar4@... " The Problem with Socialism is that eventually you run out of Other People's Money. " --Margaret Thatcher " Mistrust of Government is the Bedrock of American Patriotism " Take World's Smallest Political Quiz at http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 Dr. gives all of his men Pre. it's Pro. that is the problem for men when taking Pre. it will convert into Pro. if your body needs it. Co-Moderator Phil > > Hi,I have one thing to add to this. DO NOT take oral > pregnenolone. I did this about a year ago and it put my > progesterone up about 8X the top end of the range. I felt > like an impotent zombie. Dr. said to take the > cream as this will help things but I repeat, DO NOT > take pregnenolone orally.... > > Jim > > > > > >> > >> I find this topic coming up a lot and need to warn > men not to add Progesterone to there body. > >> Here is what Dr. says about doing this. > (Funny, when you take PREG, your PROG may rise, but it > doesn't cause feminization. But if you give straight PROG, > bad things happen.) and here is more. > >> (But you can still reason things out, and apply > good 'ol Farner's Logic. > >> > >> There is not one valid study that proves men > should take PROG. And many which prove he should not. > >> > >> Simple, irrefutable facts: > >> > >> PROG elevates SHBG > >> Suppresses the HPTA > >> Causes gynocomastia > >> Causes impotence > >> > >> ...all feminizing features of a hormone. > >> __________________ > >> www.AllThingsMale.com > >> > >> Any information I may provide does not substitute > for a proper medical evaluation by a medical professional; > nor does it constitute doctor/patient relationship, or > liability, in any way.) > >> > ========================================================================== > >> > >> Dr. treats a ton of men for all kinds of low > Testosterone and has been posting answers to men's posts at > a lot of forums. In all the yrs I have read his > replies to men every one that did Progesterone ended up with > big problems. > >> > >> There is a lot of crap on the web about taking > this but not one good study shows this helps men. > >> > >> Here is what one dam good DR. says about it. > >> > ========================================================================== > >> Originally Posted by marianco > >> To examine the possible side effects of > Progesterone, one has to look at Progesterone's roles. > >> > >> Progesterone is a precursor for testosterone, > estradiol, cortisol, aldosterone, and allopregnenolone and > allopregnanolone, etc.. Progesterone is broken down to > Pregnanediol (inactive) after it is used. > >> > >> Progesterone is the precursor for testosterone in > the testes. Increasing testosterone production requires > increasing production of progesterone, its precursor. HCG > can increase progesterone production in men. If the increase > in progesterone leads to an increase in testosterone, this > can have good or bad effects. Bad effects include slowing > down the adrenal glands when one already has adrenal > fatigue, excessive acne or hair loss, etc. > >> > >> Progesterone is a precursor for estradiol. > Progesterone also increases the number of estrogen > receptors. Either one can lead to signs of excessive > estrogen signaling (e.g. gynecomastia, aggressiveness, > fatigue (from lowered thyroid hormone in response to > increased estrogen signaling), loss of libido, etc. even if > Estradiol is controlled (since the signal is stronger when > there are more estrogen receptors). > >> > >> Progesterone is a precursor for Cortisol. In > women, it is a good replacement for hydrocortisone > (cortisol). Generally, this doesn't lead to excessive > Cortisol, since cortisol is made on demand. > >> > >> Progesterone is a precursor for Aldosterone. This > usually doesn't lead to an excess in Aldosterone since > Aldosterone has other controls - such as salt-balance. > >> > >> Progesterone is a precursor for Allopregnenolone > (both in brain and liver), and Allopregnanolone (in brain). > Allopregnanolone is neuroprotective. This is how > Progesterone can be useful in stroke - to reduce nervous > system damage from a stroke. Allopregnenolone increases GABA > receptor sensitivity to GABA. This is how Progesterone helps > reduce norepinephrine signaling, how Progesterone can be > sedating and anti-anxiety, and how Progesterone can be used > as an antiseizure medication. Excessive allopregnenolone can > cause excessive sleepiness, loss of libido (since libido > also depends on adequate but not excessive norepinephrine > signaling - which gives us sexual excitement), impaired > concentration, fatigue (since norepinephrine also is a > signal for energy on demand), etc. > >> > >> Progesterone also reduces estradiol's inhibitory > effect on thyroid hormone. I speculate that this may involve > reducing thyroid binding protein production. Thus, possibly > this can lead to excess thyroid signaling for those > sensitive to thyroid signaling - such as those with adrenal > fatigue. > >> > >> Progesterone also may reduce blood pressure. > Dizziness may result from excess. > >> > >> Progesterone is also a 5-alpha-reductase. This > blocks testosterone to DHT conversion. Excessive > progesterone may thus mean a reduction in body hair, acne, > etc. - among other actions of DHT. > >> > >> I suppose you mean a 24-hour Urine Steroid Hormone > Profile from RheinLabs.com when you say " rhein's test " . > >> > >> I suppose you mean transdermal when you wrote " TD > pregnenolone. " > >> > >> Taking pregnenolone before a 24-hour urine hormone > profile depends on whether or not you want to see the > effects of pregnenolone on one's hormone metabolism. You > would need a before an after test. > >> > >> Since Pregnenolone is a precursor for nearly all > of the substances tested, it can raise the level of any one > of the substances it is a precursor to. Depending on the > person, this may mean elevated testosterone and precursors > or elevated progesterone and Pregnanediol, elevated > Cortisol, or any other one or a combination of these > signals/hormones. > >> > >> If one has ongoing treatment with Pregnenolone, > then it would be useful to monitor its effects on hormone > production by taking it while undergoing the hormone profile > test. For example, I would want to know if Pregnenolone is > converting excessively to Estradiol, resulting in > destabilization of mood in some patients or impaired muscle > mass gain in others. > >> > >> Cheers. > >> > ========================================================================== > >> Pregnenolone is the starting point from which all > steroid hormones are manufactured in our bodies. Its > conversion in the body follows different pathways, depending > on individual needs. Dr. has his me take this in > a cream. > >> > >> > >> Co-Moderator > >> Phil > > -- > > Steve - dudescholar4@... > > " The Problem with Socialism is that eventually you > run out of Other People's Money. " --Margaret Thatcher > > " Mistrust of Government is the Bedrock of American > Patriotism " > > Take World's Smallest Political Quiz at > http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html > > > ------------------------------------ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 There is other drugs for high E2. One is Evista, which fights bone density and stops the formation of more E2. So much talk on Arimidex.... From: beth_drf <beth@...> Subject: Re: Arimidex Dosing Date: Monday, June 1, 2009, 4:25 AM > > > > > > > > This was posted by someone else with no responses. I was curious too. > > > > > > > > Can someone who knows please tell me how to dose AI's. Arimidex in this particular case. I was kinda leaning toward it might be a drug that is dosed based on body weight and not the amount of testosterone we are dealing with. I know that the maximum suppression is about 80% (i think). SO lets use that figure. Say you want maximum effectiveness scenerio.. Anyone Please...? > > > > > > > > OK, bad choice of words for thread title. Manufacturer states that 1mg / day will achieve about 75% Estrogen reduction within a day. They then go on to state that you can get up to a full 80% reduction within 2 weeks or same dosing. > > > > > > > > I would really like to see some curves with regard to estrogen suppression as it relates to different T doses.? Could it be that you can not achieve enough E suppression with taking large amounts of T? I mean to say. Percentages are percentages, Right??? BUt a 20% effective reduction of E based on 1000 mgs test /week is still gonna leave you way high right?? So are we dealing with effective proprotions, or amounts. Obivously to be " hormonally correct " , everything must be in the correct relation to each other (Estradiol counters androgens, etc..) BUT is too much E2 simply too much E2.. AND where does this supply of conversion enzymes come from and what affects the amount of those available.? Is dosing relavant to body weight or the amount hormones we are working with? FURTHER, is this the best drug to try to tweek around with? Meaning, does it have a tendency to just want to do its thing and shut down 80% of all e production even in small doses. Or is it easy to obtain the desired partial response. What I am getting at is that perhaps letro could be the better drug to try to get a 25 or 50% response from???? > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > In my personal experience the Arimidex was the most difficult thing to get right,took me over a year and it still varies now and then. I am about 270 and I ended up using 3 drops of the liquid version every other day along with 200mg DIM , one in the morning, one at night. I was always curious if the DIM actually did anything but for me it works in support of the arimidex. I ran out of DIM a couple weeks back and could definitely notice that things weren't right without it. I can't answer the technical questions, just adding my 2 cents what seems to be working for me... > > > Jim > > > > > I have found that progesterone works the best. It can lower E2 levels effectively and consistently. You can ask your doctor for a prescription for compounded progesterone cream 6 mg/day rubbed on your leg every night before bed. Progesterone levels typically are lower than normal because the testicles will produce less progesterone when less testostorone is produced.. When levels are brought back up to normal, progesterone is very effective in an indirect way in reducing the aromatase activity in the body thus reducing estradiol to normal levels, about 25-35 pg/ml. > > > > Progesterone also just makes you feel good too. > > > > Thanks for sharing, Beth. I'm curious- does taking progesterone modify the amount of TRT needed, since progestins ( & perhaps progesterone by extension) can prevent testosterone from binding to androgen receptors? Or is this only a concern at a much higher dose of progesterone? (http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Androgen_ receptor) > > ~Xian > Hi Xian, Sorry it took me so long to respond. It has been my experience that more T is not needed when progesterone is raised to normal levels, approx. 1,000-2000 pg/ml, the levels expected of normal testicular function. When progesterone is raised to normal levels it will inhibit aromatase activity induced by another hormone, cortisol which is why estradiol levels drop. Also, progesterone will inhibit conversion of T to DHT. Limiting this conversion helps to slow balding which is due to excess levels of DHT. You can try progesterone cream on your own. You can Google " USP Progesterone " and find these products. Look at the labels and calculate how much would deliver approx 3-6 mg and apply nightly as progesterone can make you drowsy. Beth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 It's not that the group favors a particular drug; rather, it's a matter of what you expect/need the drug to do. I recently purchased liquid letrozole/ femara, which is closer to anastrazole/arimidex in effect than raloxifene/evista. Raloxifene does not significantly lower overall E2, but only selectively blocks its activity at estrogen receptors alpha (as found in the breast)(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estrogen_receptor). Evista is not the same type of drug as arimidex/anastrazole, femara/letrozole, or aromasin/exemestane. Evista, like Tamoxifen, is a selective estrogen receptor modulator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raloxifene), which binds to certain types of estrogen receptors in competition with estradiol/estrone. Selectively blocking estrogen makes sense for women (or men) facing breast cancer who want to prevent more potent estrogens from binding to receptors in the breast, but men who are converting too much T to E need to decrease the overall amount of aromatization (e.g. to prevent/combat panic attacks, anxiety, brain fog, erectile dysfunction, risk of stroke, etc.). Since aromatase inhibitors like Arimidex or Femara show a measurable decrease in estradiol that can be tracked via blood tests, they are more useful for the purpose of lowering overall estrogen. ~Xian > > There is other drugs for high E2. One is Evista, which fights bone density and stops the formation of more E2. So much talk on Arimidex.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 I was on Evista for 3 months and it did nothing to lower my E2 levels. Here is a cut and paste from this web site. I tried all kinds of things and the best was Arimidex second best was Indolplex/DIM. http://tinyurl.com/mh8hcx ========================================================================== Raloxifene (Evista) This drug was originally approved for the treatment and prevention of osteoporosis in postmenopausal women. Yep, yet another chick drug. Raloxifene has agonistic properties on bone. That means it acts in a similar fashion to estrogen by binding to the Beta version of the ER and inducing transcription. This is a good thing. As a matter of fact, clomiphene and tamoxifen do this as well, but not to the same extent, it seems. What they found later about this substance was that it also has antagonistic effects on the ER alpha in humans. Thus, it could be used as an alternative to tamoxifen. Like the other two drugs, raloxifene can also lower LDL levels because of its agonistic effects on lipid metabolism. Is it beneficial to LH and Testosterone levels? It seems as though it is, but not to a very great extent; perhaps less than that of tamoxifen. (8) So, if you’re after it for a means of preventing gyno, I’d say a dosage of 60 to 240 mg is necessary. For a possible elevation of endogenous Testosterone, higher dosages would need to be used, possibly 200 to 300 mg per day. The half life is 27.7 hours. The cost is about $2.25 to $3 per 60mg tab. Co-Moderator Phil > > From: beth_drf <beth@...> > Subject: Re: Arimidex Dosing > > Date: Monday, June 1, 2009, 4:25 AM > > > > > > > > > > > >   >       >       > > >    >    > > > > > > > > > > > > This was posted by someone else with no > responses. I was curious too. > > > > > > > > > > > > Can someone who knows please tell me > how to dose AI's. Arimidex in this particular case. I was > kinda leaning toward it might be a drug that is dosed based > on body weight and not the amount of testosterone we are > dealing with. I know that the maximum suppression is about > 80% (i think). SO lets use that figure. Say you want maximum > effectiveness scenerio.. Anyone Please...? > > > > > > > > > > > > OK, bad choice of words for thread > title. Manufacturer states that 1mg / day will achieve about > 75% Estrogen reduction within a day. They then go on to > state that you can get up to a full 80% reduction within 2 > weeks or same dosing. > > > > > > > > > > > > I would really like to see some curves > with regard to estrogen suppression as it relates to > different T doses.? Could it be that you can not achieve > enough E suppression with taking large amounts of T? I mean > to say. Percentages are percentages, Right??? BUt a 20% > effective reduction of E based on 1000 mgs test /week is > still gonna leave you way high right?? So are we dealing > with effective proprotions, or amounts. Obivously to be > " hormonally correct " , everything must be in the correct > relation to each other (Estradiol counters androgens, etc..) > BUT is too much E2 simply too much E2.. AND where does this > supply of conversion enzymes come from and what affects the > amount of those available.? Is dosing relavant to body > weight or the amount hormones we are working with? FURTHER, > is this the best drug to try to tweek around with? Meaning, > does it have a tendency to just want to do its thing and > shut down 80% of all e production even in small doses. Or > is it easy to obtain the desired partial response. What I > am getting at is that perhaps letro could be the better drug > to try to get a 25 or 50% response from???? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > In my personal experience the Arimidex was > the most difficult thing to get right,took me over a > year and it still varies now and then. I am about 270 and I > ended up using 3 drops of the liquid version every other day > along with 200mg DIM , one in the morning, one at night. > I was always curious if the DIM actually did anything > but for me it works in support of the arimidex. I ran out of > DIM a couple weeks back and could definitely notice that > things weren't right without it. I can't answer the > technical questions, just adding my 2 cents what seems > to be working for me... > > > > > Jim > > > > > > > > > I have found that progesterone works the best. It > can lower E2 levels effectively and consistently. You can > ask your doctor for a prescription for compounded > progesterone cream 6 mg/day rubbed on your leg every night > before bed. Progesterone levels typically are lower than > normal because the testicles will produce less progesterone > when less testostorone is produced.. When levels are brought > back up to normal, progesterone is very effective in an > indirect way in reducing the aromatase activity in the body > thus reducing estradiol to normal levels, about 25-35 > pg/ml. > > > > > > > > Progesterone also just makes you feel good too. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for sharing, Beth. I'm curious- does > taking progesterone modify the amount of TRT needed, since > progestins ( & perhaps progesterone by extension) can > prevent testosterone from binding to androgen > receptors? Or is this only a concern at a much higher > dose of progesterone? (http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Androgen_ > receptor) > > > > > > ~Xian > > > > > Hi Xian, > > > > Sorry it took me so long to respond. > > > > It has been my experience that more T is not needed when > progesterone is raised to normal levels, approx. 1,000-2000 > pg/ml, the levels expected of normal testicular function. > When progesterone is raised to normal levels it will inhibit > aromatase activity induced by another hormone, cortisol > which is why estradiol levels drop. Also, progesterone will > inhibit conversion of T to DHT. Limiting this conversion > helps to slow balding which is due to excess levels of DHT. > > > > You can try progesterone cream on your own. You can Google > " USP Progesterone " and find these products. Look at the > labels and calculate how much would deliver approx 3-6 mg > and apply nightly as progesterone can make you drowsy. > > > > Beth > > > > > > >    > >   >   >    >      >    >    > > > > > > > > >    > > >    >    > > >    > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 No estrogen med is specific for any male firstly. Given loss of bone density does happen for Hypo. males, Evista is ideal. Evista from what I researched doesn't eliminate preexisting estrogen, rather it prevents new estrogen from building. It sucks when the T certain men take converts into estrogen but it does. Â I rather 'kill two birds with one stone' with developing healthier bones while preventing estrogen from building up. This is my individual assessment. Certain members in here feel like every hypo. should take what they say. If you have the money, go out and buy experimental stuff. But if you have insurance which may not cover all of this experimental stuff posted, than working with a component Endo doctor is ideal. I can live with being primary, and not ever taking Hcg and other experimental meds for men. I can live while researching and asking questions to my doc, then trying different resources that are cheaper than out-of-patient and could work better. Given estrogen blocking is experimental for men, how can anyone say one estrogen medication blocks ALL estrogen from being converted from T? I honestly think, I will stop commenting on this forum. I seriously don't like the direction in the last year or so. It's too many members who don't give advice, rather enforce what they feel should work better than the next, and if another member thinks differently contradictions fly. Too much bitterness toward doctors also. I lived a tough life from being primary since birth or when I had surgery at 10 years old, but I don't enforce anything nor am I bitter from what I have been through. Now is what counts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 UU, no one's trying to drive you out nor is anyone " enforcing " anything. On that note, no one here (myself included) should expect to say something that is factually incorrect or conceptually problematic without getting comments. It's part of the quest of getting closer to truth. A logical argument is designed to support a position, not personally assault. I.e. If Raloxifene is as useful for men as you claim (as it could be), simply show by facts how it works better than others. On the other hand, if it isn't, then at least we've all learned something about both. You have often claimed " hCG is experimental for men " , & now you claim estrogen drugs for men are " experimental " . It seems you view a drug without full FDA approval for this specific use as " experimental " . Whereas it's true that drugs like arimidex (or raloxifene for that matter) are not specifically approved for men, it is also true that 1) doctors may legally prescribe drugs for purposes other than their FDA approved use (it happens quite often for drugs other than controlled substances), & 2) FDA approval does not reflect the totality of studies for a drug, nor address all useful applications of it. There are studies showing the usefulness of aromatase inhibitors like letrozole/anastrazole & SERMs like tamoxifen & clomiphene/Clomid in men. I'm not aware of any regarding Raloxifene but that doesn't mean they aren't there. The drugs work via similar mechanisms in men & women. Of all the posts I've seen from our group, I don't know of anyone (myself included) who claimed arimidex, aromasin, or letrozole blocked the conversion of ALL estrogen, nor did anyone encourage that, as men need some estrogen (~20-30 pg/mL). I did say the aromatase inhibitors above lower overall estrogen (estradiol) & that this decrease can be measured via blood tests. Many men here have seen their therapy limited by doctor ignorance & misinformation, reflecting the dangers of an inconsistently " cautious " medical system. I think we have every right to be angry when medical professionals fail to do their job to the fullest extent, just as I would be frustrated with my defense lawyer who failed to do everything he could to refute the prosecutor's argument. It's a matter of expecting the best from any professional, not settling for " treatment " that ranks below minimal " standards of care " . Quite a number of men have channeled their frustration into making the process easier for other men with this condition, & I think this is constructive. Medicine, like any other industry, needs to be held accountable so that quality of care may improve. Commenting upon which doctors do or don't provide good care helps identify good doctors & ultimately saves other patients time & money. ~Xian > > No estrogen med is specific for any male firstly. Given loss of bone density does happen for Hypo. males, Evista is ideal. Evista from what I researched doesn't eliminate preexisting estrogen, rather it prevents new estrogen from building. It sucks when the T certain men take converts into estrogen but it does. > > Â I rather 'kill two birds with one stone' with developing healthier bones while preventing estrogen from building up. This is my individual assessment. Certain members in here feel like every hypo. should take what they say. > > If you have the money, go out and buy experimental stuff. But if you have insurance which may not cover all of this experimental stuff posted, than working with a component Endo doctor is ideal. > > I can live with being primary, and not ever taking Hcg and other experimental meds for men. > I can live while researching and asking questions to my doc, then trying different resources that are cheaper than out-of-patient and could work better. > > Given estrogen blocking is experimental for men, how can anyone say one estrogen medication blocks ALL estrogen from being converted from T? > > I honestly think, I will stop commenting on this forum. I seriously don't like the direction in the last year or so. It's too many members who don't give advice, rather enforce what they feel should work better than the next, and if another member thinks differently contradictions fly. Too much bitterness toward doctors also. I lived a tough life from being primary since birth or when I had surgery at 10 years old, but I don't enforce anything nor am I bitter from what I have been through. Now is what counts. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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