Guest guest Posted October 10, 2008 Report Share Posted October 10, 2008 This is great news and I need to say if this does not work try doing HCG everyday. Most men on HCG only do better on it everyday. One guy don't know if you remember him Z his Dr. is Shippen he does well on 60 IU's everyday and uses Indolplex/DIM to keep his Estradiol under control he take about 1/3 of a pill a day. You will see your Estradiol come up over time on HCG. A few others do 100 IU's a day and do well on it. I tried it and still need T shots with it. Co-Moderator Phil > From: rockin813 <rockin813@...> > Subject: Dr prescribed me HCG > > Date: Friday, October 10, 2008, 10:57 AM > So, Dr and I are in agreement that my testicles function > (wife got > pregnant 5mos ago). My FSH is 5 with ref range of 2-6 but > my LH is > low 3 (2-9). > > We understand what caused my 'suppression' as > mentioned before (tea > tree oil mimics estrogen and dampers androgen receptors). > > So, a year after stopping FSH has gone up but LH still low. > All > symptoms of Estrogen dominance gone (bloating/weight gain > mainly)..but libido still low...cuz T is 350 (rr 250-1100). > > E2 is 10 rr 10-54...so its low (cuz no T to convert?) > > Anyway, protocol starts with 250iu of HCG 3x a wk. Will > test in 6 > wks to see where to go from there. Androgel did crap for > me...7.5g a > day after 4 wks led to lower T levels than started. (i > understand > why...didn't absorb well enough but enough to stop my > own prod'n). > > Anyway, if testes still work fine..and leydig cells not too > > suppressed...will 250iu 3x a week yield results quick? > > Thanks! > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2008 Report Share Posted October 10, 2008 so with HCG, the goal is to stimulate the leydig cells correct? will this in turn rev my system up for hpta to produce more LH? its believed my HPTA is fine cuz my FSH is normal on higher end of range but LH is low end. Does the leydig cells send signal to hpta to make more LH? > > > From: rockin813 <rockin813@...> > > Subject: Dr prescribed me HCG > > > > Date: Friday, October 10, 2008, 10:57 AM > > So, Dr and I are in agreement that my testicles function > > (wife got > > pregnant 5mos ago). My FSH is 5 with ref range of 2-6 but > > my LH is > > low 3 (2-9). > > > > We understand what caused my 'suppression' as > > mentioned before (tea > > tree oil mimics estrogen and dampers androgen receptors). > > > > So, a year after stopping FSH has gone up but LH still low. > > All > > symptoms of Estrogen dominance gone (bloating/weight gain > > mainly)..but libido still low...cuz T is 350 (rr 250-1100). > > > > E2 is 10 rr 10-54...so its low (cuz no T to convert?) > > > > Anyway, protocol starts with 250iu of HCG 3x a wk. Will > > test in 6 > > wks to see where to go from there. Androgel did crap for > > me...7.5g a > > day after 4 wks led to lower T levels than started. (i > > understand > > why...didn't absorb well enough but enough to stop my > > own prod'n). > > > > Anyway, if testes still work fine..and leydig cells not too > > > > suppressed...will 250iu 3x a week yield results quick? > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2008 Report Share Posted October 10, 2008 No it's the pituitary sending LH to the testis to make more testosterone so if your LH is low your testis are not getting the messaqe of LH to your testis to tell them to make more T. HCG acts like LH in your body. Co-Moderator Phil > From: rockin813 <rockin813@...> > Subject: Re: Dr prescribed me HCG > > Date: Friday, October 10, 2008, 11:29 AM > so with HCG, the goal is to stimulate the leydig cells > correct? will > this in turn rev my system up for hpta to produce more LH? > its > believed my HPTA is fine cuz my FSH is normal on higher end > of range > but LH is low end. Does the leydig cells send signal to > hpta to make > more LH? > > > > > > > > > From: rockin813 <rockin813@...> > > > Subject: Dr prescribed me HCG > > > > > > Date: Friday, October 10, 2008, 10:57 AM > > > So, Dr and I are in agreement that my testicles > function > > > (wife got > > > pregnant 5mos ago). My FSH is 5 with ref range > of 2-6 but > > > my LH is > > > low 3 (2-9). > > > > > > We understand what caused my > 'suppression' as > > > mentioned before (tea > > > tree oil mimics estrogen and dampers androgen > receptors). > > > > > > So, a year after stopping FSH has gone up but LH > still low. > > > All > > > symptoms of Estrogen dominance gone > (bloating/weight gain > > > mainly)..but libido still low...cuz T is 350 (rr > 250-1100). > > > > > > E2 is 10 rr 10-54...so its low (cuz no T to > convert?) > > > > > > Anyway, protocol starts with 250iu of HCG 3x a > wk. Will > > > test in 6 > > > wks to see where to go from there. Androgel did > crap for > > > me...7.5g a > > > day after 4 wks led to lower T levels than > started. (i > > > understand > > > why...didn't absorb well enough but enough to > stop my > > > own prod'n). > > > > > > Anyway, if testes still work fine..and leydig > cells not too > > > > > > suppressed...will 250iu 3x a week yield results > quick? > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2008 Report Share Posted October 10, 2008 i know pit gland makes lh. how does the hpta know to signal more lh from pit gland? how does the hpta sense low T in body and to make more? does it get a signal from something else? as for hcg...it just mimics lh. so with my lh being so low, why would i supplement something to mimic lh...which also will furhter lower my natural lh? im thinking for short term the hcg will stimulate my leydig cells and get them out of hybernation mode (my testes aren't atrophied but definately not full). but if my leydig cells are in hybernation, why isn't my pit gland sending more lh? it seems like low dose of clomid would make more sense than HCG. i read where they do both....so i can see about adding low dose clomid. jack > > > > > > > From: rockin813 <rockin813@> > > > > Subject: Dr prescribed me HCG > > > > > > > > Date: Friday, October 10, 2008, 10:57 AM > > > > So, Dr and I are in agreement that my testicles > > function > > > > (wife got > > > > pregnant 5mos ago). My FSH is 5 with ref range > > of 2-6 but > > > > my LH is > > > > low 3 (2-9). > > > > > > > > We understand what caused my > > 'suppression' as > > > > mentioned before (tea > > > > tree oil mimics estrogen and dampers androgen > > receptors). > > > > > > > > So, a year after stopping FSH has gone up but LH > > still low. > > > > All > > > > symptoms of Estrogen dominance gone > > (bloating/weight gain > > > > mainly)..but libido still low...cuz T is 350 (rr > > 250-1100). > > > > > > > > E2 is 10 rr 10-54...so its low (cuz no T to > > convert?) > > > > > > > > Anyway, protocol starts with 250iu of HCG 3x a > > wk. Will > > > > test in 6 > > > > wks to see where to go from there. Androgel did > > crap for > > > > me...7.5g a > > > > day after 4 wks led to lower T levels than > > started. (i > > > > understand > > > > why...didn't absorb well enough but enough to > > stop my > > > > own prod'n). > > > > > > > > Anyway, if testes still work fine..and leydig > > cells not too > > > > > > > > suppressed...will 250iu 3x a week yield results > > quick? > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2008 Report Share Posted October 10, 2008 I am not sure how the HPTA works never looked into this I know what your saying you want to try to get your HPTA jump started again. You don't know if you can do this my HPTA works fine it's my pit that dose not work. And yes HCG will shut down your LH even more best Dr. for this is Dr. he knows how you try to jump start the HTPA again he does this with guys shut down from doing steroids. If your LH levels are low to me it's your pit not sending the message if your HPTA is shut down it will not tell your pit to send LH but for that matter it will not tell your pit to send most of the other hormones also this gets involved and is way over my head. Co-Moderator Phil > From: rockin813 <rockin813@...> > Subject: Re: Dr prescribed me HCG > > Date: Friday, October 10, 2008, 4:18 PM > i know pit gland makes lh. how does the hpta know to signal > more lh > from pit gland? how does the hpta sense low T in body and > to make > more? does it get a signal from something else? > > as for hcg...it just mimics lh. so with my lh being so low, > why would > i supplement something to mimic lh...which also will > furhter lower my > natural lh? > > im thinking for short term the hcg will stimulate my leydig > cells and > get them out of hybernation mode (my testes aren't > atrophied but > definately not full). but if my leydig cells are in > hybernation, why > isn't my pit gland sending more lh? > > it seems like low dose of clomid would make more sense than > HCG. i > read where they do both....so i can see about adding low > dose clomid. > > jack > > > > > > > > > > > From: rockin813 <rockin813@> > > > > > Subject: Dr prescribed > me HCG > > > > > > > > > > Date: Friday, October 10, 2008, 10:57 > AM > > > > > So, Dr and I are in agreement that my > testicles > > > function > > > > > (wife got > > > > > pregnant 5mos ago). My FSH is 5 with > ref range > > > of 2-6 but > > > > > my LH is > > > > > low 3 (2-9). > > > > > > > > > > We understand what caused my > > > 'suppression' as > > > > > mentioned before (tea > > > > > tree oil mimics estrogen and dampers > androgen > > > receptors). > > > > > > > > > > So, a year after stopping FSH has gone > up but LH > > > still low. > > > > > All > > > > > symptoms of Estrogen dominance gone > > > (bloating/weight gain > > > > > mainly)..but libido still low...cuz T > is 350 (rr > > > 250-1100). > > > > > > > > > > E2 is 10 rr 10-54...so its low (cuz no > T to > > > convert?) > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, protocol starts with 250iu of > HCG 3x a > > > wk. Will > > > > > test in 6 > > > > > wks to see where to go from there. > Androgel did > > > crap for > > > > > me...7.5g a > > > > > day after 4 wks led to lower T levels > than > > > started. (i > > > > > understand > > > > > why...didn't absorb well enough but > enough to > > > stop my > > > > > own prod'n). > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, if testes still work fine..and > leydig > > > cells not too > > > > > > > > > > suppressed...will 250iu 3x a week yield > results > > > quick? > > > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2008 Report Share Posted October 10, 2008 > > i know pit gland makes lh. how does the hpta know to signal more lh > from pit gland? how does the hpta sense low T in body and to make > more? does it get a signal from something else? > > as for hcg...it just mimics lh. so with my lh being so low, why would > i supplement something to mimic lh...which also will furhter lower my > natural lh? If your natural LH is so low that you need replacement therapy, what difference does it make if you lower it further? The fact that your LH is low possibly suggests a pituitary problem, in which case one of the best ways forward is to substitute HCG for your natural LH. HCG will then do the work that your natural LH is supposed to do, but which it is unable to do because it is too low. Have you actually had an MRI to determine whether your LH is because of some kind of pituitary disease? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2008 Report Share Posted October 10, 2008 Yep, if your LH levels are low, either you are not getting GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone) from the hypothalamus, or you have a metabolite of testosterone at an elevated level which tells the anterior pituitary to ignore those pulses of GnRH. Elevated estradiol or DHT will do this. They are sort of equivalent, both being the most active form of estrogen/ androgen. I'm working out of the book on chemistry that docs use to study for their boards now. When I get to that point, I'll post about it. For fertility, hCG is the front line treatment. After 6 months, FSH is added, but most men don't require it. Using Clomid to block the negative feedback signal to the HPTA will certainly help get your body making it's own T again, but if that doesn't work on it's own, a lot of docs will prescribe hGH in addition to Clomid. To over simplify, if you've been down for a long time, your " set point " keeps you at a low level. hCG + Clomid + an anti-aromatase agent, will help you move that " set point " up a little. You just have to be careful to to use too much hCG which can down regulate your testes sensitivity to LH. Sorry, I don't have references handy and only have a few minutes here. If anyone is interested, I can dig up the references later, maybe tomorrow. Wife and I are headed out for a sleep study. One doc thinks that PAP will cure all our woes. Just another step I have to go through to get insurance to pay for hGH. I think they are spending more money trying not to pay for it than they would by actually paying for it. I still have to have a 'stim test and an MRI. They admit I have a screwy pituitary, but they are trying to prove that it may be messed up, but it isn't messed up enough to warrant covering. I'm paying for Depot T out of my pocket because it was cheaper than going through several months of co-pay using androgel. Grumble grumble. Sorry for the rant. Gotta go. -Mike > > > > > > > > > > > From: rockin813 <rockin813@> > > > > > > Subject: Dr prescribed > > me HCG > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Friday, October 10, 2008, 10:57 > > AM > > > > > > So, Dr and I are in agreement that my > > testicles > > > > function > > > > > > (wife got > > > > > > pregnant 5mos ago). My FSH is 5 with > > ref range > > > > of 2-6 but > > > > > > my LH is > > > > > > low 3 (2-9). > > > > > > > > > > > > We understand what caused my > > > > 'suppression' as > > > > > > mentioned before (tea > > > > > > tree oil mimics estrogen and dampers > > androgen > > > > receptors). > > > > > > > > > > > > So, a year after stopping FSH has gone > > up but LH > > > > still low. > > > > > > All > > > > > > symptoms of Estrogen dominance gone > > > > (bloating/weight gain > > > > > > mainly)..but libido still low...cuz T > > is 350 (rr > > > > 250-1100). > > > > > > > > > > > > E2 is 10 rr 10-54...so its low (cuz no > > T to > > > > convert?) > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, protocol starts with 250iu of > > HCG 3x a > > > > wk. Will > > > > > > test in 6 > > > > > > wks to see where to go from there. > > Androgel did > > > > crap for > > > > > > me...7.5g a > > > > > > day after 4 wks led to lower T levels > > than > > > > started. (i > > > > > > understand > > > > > > why...didn't absorb well enough but > > enough to > > > > stop my > > > > > > own prod'n). > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, if testes still work fine..and > > leydig > > > > cells not too > > > > > > > > > > > > suppressed...will 250iu 3x a week yield > > results > > > > quick? > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2008 Report Share Posted October 11, 2008 I know at MESO guys have stickys posted on there one is " dayone at attempting to restart " and the other is " My PCT Journal to kickstart HPTA post HRT " Here is a link. http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/mens-health-forum/ Co-Moderator Phil > From: Mike Lawson <mlawson66@...> > Subject: Re: Dr prescribed me HCG > > Date: Friday, October 10, 2008, 8:19 PM > Yep, if your LH levels are low, either you are not getting > GnRH > (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone) from the hypothalamus, > or you have a metabolite of testosterone at an elevated > level > which tells the anterior pituitary to ignore those pulses > of GnRH. > Elevated estradiol or DHT will do this. They are sort of > equivalent, both being the most active form of estrogen/ > androgen. I'm working out of the book on chemistry that > docs use to study for their boards now. When I get to that > point, I'll post about it. > > For fertility, hCG is the front line treatment. After 6 > months, FSH > is added, but most men don't require it. > > Using Clomid to block the negative feedback signal to the > HPTA > will certainly help get your body making it's own T > again, but if > that doesn't work on it's own, a lot of docs will > prescribe hGH > in addition to Clomid. To over simplify, if you've > been down > for a long time, your " set point " keeps you at a > low level. hCG + > Clomid + an anti-aromatase agent, will help you move that > " set point " up a little. You just have to be > careful to to use > too much hCG which can down regulate your testes > sensitivity > to LH. > > Sorry, I don't have references handy and only have a > few > minutes here. If anyone is interested, I can dig up the > references later, maybe tomorrow. Wife and I are headed > out > for a sleep study. One doc thinks that PAP will cure all > our > woes. Just another step I have to go through to get > insurance > to pay for hGH. I think they are spending more money > trying > not to pay for it than they would by actually paying for > it. I > still have to have a 'stim test and an MRI. They admit > I have > a screwy pituitary, but they are trying to prove that it > may > be messed up, but it isn't messed up enough to warrant > covering. I'm paying for Depot T out of my pocket > because > it was cheaper than going through several months of co-pay > using androgel. Grumble grumble. > > Sorry for the rant. Gotta go. > > -Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: rockin813 > <rockin813@> > > > > > > > Subject: Dr > prescribed > > > me HCG > > > > > > > To: > > > > > > > > Date: Friday, October 10, > 2008, 10:57 > > > AM > > > > > > > So, Dr and I are in agreement > that my > > > testicles > > > > > function > > > > > > > (wife got > > > > > > > pregnant 5mos ago). My FSH > is 5 with > > > ref range > > > > > of 2-6 but > > > > > > > my LH is > > > > > > > low 3 (2-9). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We understand what caused my > > > > > 'suppression' as > > > > > > > mentioned before (tea > > > > > > > tree oil mimics estrogen and > dampers > > > androgen > > > > > receptors). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So, a year after stopping FSH > has gone > > > up but LH > > > > > still low. > > > > > > > All > > > > > > > symptoms of Estrogen > dominance gone > > > > > (bloating/weight gain > > > > > > > mainly)..but libido still > low...cuz T > > > is 350 (rr > > > > > 250-1100). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > E2 is 10 rr 10-54...so its > low (cuz no > > > T to > > > > > convert?) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, protocol starts with > 250iu of > > > HCG 3x a > > > > > wk. Will > > > > > > > test in 6 > > > > > > > wks to see where to go from > there. > > > Androgel did > > > > > crap for > > > > > > > me...7.5g a > > > > > > > day after 4 wks led to lower > T levels > > > than > > > > > started. (i > > > > > > > understand > > > > > > > why...didn't absorb well > enough but > > > enough to > > > > > stop my > > > > > > > own prod'n). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, if testes still work > fine..and > > > leydig > > > > > cells not too > > > > > > > > > > > > > > suppressed...will 250iu 3x a > week yield > > > results > > > > > quick? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2008 Report Share Posted October 11, 2008 yes i had an mri of my pit gland..even though my prolactin levels are smack in the middle. the mri came back clean. my pit gland works fine....as it sends adequate amounts of fsh. my lh is just low...but still there. so in the end..id rather stimulate my pit gland rather than shutting it down completely. > > > > i know pit gland makes lh. how does the hpta know to signal more lh > > from pit gland? how does the hpta sense low T in body and to make > > more? does it get a signal from something else? > > > > as for hcg...it just mimics lh. so with my lh being so low, why would > > i supplement something to mimic lh...which also will furhter lower my > > natural lh? > > If your natural LH is so low that you need replacement therapy, what > difference does it make if you lower it further? The fact that your LH > is low possibly suggests a pituitary problem, in which case one of the > best ways forward is to substitute HCG for your natural LH. HCG will > then do the work that your natural LH is supposed to do, but which it > is unable to do because it is too low. Have you actually had an MRI to > determine whether your LH is because of some kind of pituitary disease? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2008 Report Share Posted October 12, 2008 I think this link from MESO will help you understand how the HPTA to the pituitary works it's about the shut down of them by using steroids. Still feel this will help you understand and figure out how to jump start your HPTA again. http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/scally/anabolic-steroid-induced-hypogonadi\ sm.htm Co-Moderator Phil > From: rockin813 <rockin813@...> > Subject: Re: Dr prescribed me HCG > > Date: Saturday, October 11, 2008, 3:49 PM > yes i had an mri of my pit gland..even though my prolactin > levels are > smack in the middle. the mri came back clean. my pit > gland works > fine....as it sends adequate amounts of fsh. my lh is just > low...but > still there. > > so in the end..id rather stimulate my pit gland rather than > shutting > it down completely. > > > > > > > > > > i know pit gland makes lh. how does the hpta > know to signal more > lh > > > from pit gland? how does the hpta sense low T in > body and to > make > > > more? does it get a signal from something else? > > > > > > as for hcg...it just mimics lh. so with my lh > being so low, why > would > > > i supplement something to mimic lh...which also > will furhter > lower my > > > natural lh? > > > > If your natural LH is so low that you need replacement > therapy, what > > difference does it make if you lower it further? The > fact that your > LH > > is low possibly suggests a pituitary problem, in which > case one of > the > > best ways forward is to substitute HCG for your > natural LH. HCG will > > then do the work that your natural LH is supposed to > do, but which > it > > is unable to do because it is too low. Have you > actually had an MRI > to > > determine whether your LH is because of some kind of > pituitary > disease? > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Phil: I posted a new message last night and hope you will let it go through. It's a question about a Sterile Abscess that I think I got from a deep thigh injection that is now very painful and has been for almost a week. When I contacted my MD via email, he used the term Sterile Abscess, but I can find much literature on the internet about a Sterile Abscess. Do they need to be drained? If not, how long does it take to go away? What warning signals should trigger a trip to see a doctor? Thanks. > From: rockin813 <rockin813 (DOT) com> > Subject: Re: Dr prescribed me HCG > > Date: Saturday, October 11, 2008, 3:49 PM > yes i had an mri of my pit gland..even though my prolactin > levels are > smack in the middle. the mri came back clean. my pit > gland works > fine....as it sends adequate amounts of fsh. my lh is just > low...but > still there. > > so in the end..id rather stimulate my pit gland rather than > shutting > it down completely. > > > > > > > > > > i know pit gland makes lh. how does the hpta > know to signal more > lh > > > from pit gland? how does the hpta sense low T in > body and to > make > > > more? does it get a signal from something else? > > > > > > as for hcg...it just mimics lh. so with my lh > being so low, why > would > > > i supplement something to mimic lh...which also > will furhter > lower my > > > natural lh? > > > > If your natural LH is so low that you need replacement > therapy, what > > difference does it make if you lower it further? The > fact that your > LH > > is low possibly suggests a pituitary problem, in which > case one of > the > > best ways forward is to substitute HCG for your > natural LH. HCG will > > then do the work that your natural LH is supposed to > do, but which > it > > is unable to do because it is too low. Have you > actually had an MRI > to > > determine whether your LH is because of some kind of > pituitary > disease? > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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