Androgel

May 1, 2008

Blood was drawn more than 24 hours after I had applied any gel. I don't

understand why you would say that it isn't possible.

philip georgian <pmgamer18@...> wrote: Not

possable did you put the gel on first the do the blood test. It's best to

shower first thing in the morning then do your blood test then do the gel after.

If you can't do this put it on in the morning go to work do labs after 6 hrs.

but be sure not to get gel on or near the spot they take the blood.

Farrell <specialdoc2002@...> wrote: I used 10g Androgel

daily for one year and discovered at the end of that time that my total T was

1350!

joe <jadonahuejr@...> wrote: I have been on 10mg of androgel for about

one year and do not see a

big difference. Went to endo this week for check up and lab test. I

asked about T injections and was told not to give up on gel just yet.

The new lab report showed a total testosterone of 171 so the endo just

increased my dose to 15 mg for the next six weeks before another blood

test.

Has anyone had a good experience with androgel?

test'; " >

May 1, 2008

>Has anyone had a good experience with androgel?

>

yes, taking 7.5 g/day and having been doing that for 2

years. Testosterone varies from 350-750, (unclear why this

varies??), E2 stays 25 or under. I feel good, very strong for 58,

great libido, hard erections, great ejaculates.

Kipp C. Kruse, Ph.d.

Emeritus Professor of Biological Sciences

Eastern Illinois University

ton, IL 61920

cell = 217-549-2651

" and there ain't no starbucks and there ain't no wal-marts, and there

ain't no strip malls, and there ain't no cell phone towers, and there

ain't no internet, and there ain't nobody telling me what to do;

there are just these potholes and these ducks and ME "

May 1, 2008

On Thu, 1 May 2008 15:19:39 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

>Not possable

Of course it's possible. Absorbtion differences are huge. They change

over time. I found while gel worked for me originally over time it

absorbed less well, and my levels declined. Increasing dosing didn't

really make enough difference.

Besides which gell costs over 1500 a year and shots are About 200 a

year or so. And more reliable.

>did you put the gel on first the do the blood test. It's best to shower first

thing in the morning then do your blood test then do the gel after. If you

can't do this put it on in the morning go to work do labs after 6 hrs. but be

sure not to get gel on or near the spot they take the blood.

>

> Farrell <specialdoc2002@...> wrote: I used 10g Androgel

daily for one year and discovered at the end of that time that my total T was

1350!

>

>joe <jadonahuejr@...> wrote: I have been on 10mg of androgel for about

one year and do not see a

>big difference. Went to endo this week for check up and lab test. I

>asked about T injections and was told not to give up on gel just yet.

>The new lab report showed a total testosterone of 171 so the endo just

>increased my dose to 15 mg for the next six weeks before another blood

>test.

>

>Has anyone had a good experience with androgel?

>

>test'; " >

>

May 2, 2008

Yes same here and I hear this story a lot.

gettin_older <gettin_older@...> wrote: I started on Androgel. It

worked at 10mg for a while.... Then had to

increase to 15mg.... Then went to injections.... Then went to self-

injections. Now I feel good.

Gettin Older

>

> I have been on 10mg of androgel for about one year and do not see a

> big difference. Went to endo this week for check up and lab test. I

> asked about T injections and was told not to give up on gel just

yet.

> The new lab report showed a total testosterone of 171 so the endo

just

> increased my dose to 15 mg for the next six weeks before another

blood

> test.

>

> Has anyone had a good experience with androgel?

>

Co-Moderator " Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see. "

Phil

---------------------------------

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now.

May 2, 2008

I know every time I post this I get this. If you look at this link if it opens

for you you will see the levels you get up to in a perfect case. In this link

there are charts showing levels at given times for most TRT. A 200mgs shot will

peak at 1300 by the 3rd. day. The 5mg patch will peak at 700 after 6 hrs.

10grams of Testim witch works better then androgel peaks at 700 in 4hrs. then

falls off to 450 by 24 hrs.

If you did not shower good before this test and the spot they took blood had

the gel on it from 24 hrs. ago this will spike your test.

When I was on gels I was up and down due to the Dr. lowering my dose because I

would put the gel on first of not shower that morning doing the test first.

Also we now don't change my dose on one lab I have lost count how many times the

labs were wrong. My dose would get lowered I would crash.

Here is the link.

http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6413 & d=1139879356

Farrell <specialdoc2002@...> wrote:

Blood was drawn more than 24 hours after I had applied any gel. I

don't understand why you would say that it isn't possible.

philip georgian <pmgamer18@...> wrote: Not possable did you put the gel on

first the do the blood test. It's best to shower first thing in the morning then

do your blood test then do the gel after. If you can't do this put it on in the

morning go to work do labs after 6 hrs. but be sure not to get gel on or near

the spot they take the blood.

Farrell <specialdoc2002@...> wrote: I used 10g Androgel daily for

one year and discovered at the end of that time that my total T was 1350!

joe <jadonahuejr@...> wrote: I have been on 10mg of androgel for about one

year and do not see a

big difference. Went to endo this week for check up and lab test. I

asked about T injections and was told not to give up on gel just yet.

The new lab report showed a total testosterone of 171 so the endo just

increased my dose to 15 mg for the next six weeks before another blood

test.

Has anyone had a good experience with androgel?

test'; " >

May 3, 2008

I was told that after 10 ml, androgel is not known be effective, and not studies

have been done. I asked my doc this because I am on 10 ml and it's doing very

little and extremely expenses. HE IS A PCP AND DID KNOW MUCH ABOUT THE SHOTS.

how can I EDUCATE HIM AND MYSELF ABOUT THE SHOTS?

joe <jadonahuejr@...> wrote: I have been on 10mg of androgel for

about one year and do not see a

big difference. Went to endo this week for check up and lab test. I

asked about T injections and was told not to give up on gel just yet.

The new lab report showed a total testosterone of 171 so the endo just

increased my dose to 15 mg for the next six weeks before another blood

test.

Has anyone had a good experience with androgel?

May 3, 2008

This link is about women trying to become men but full of info on this.

http://www.ftmguide.org/ttypes.html#cypionate

Also go to Dr. 's site www.allthingsmale.com and read TRT: A recipe for

success and his HCG update.

It states in the AACE Guildlines to do shot starting at 100mgs every 7 to 10

days.

http://www.aace.com/pub/pdf/guidelines/hypogonadism.pdf

This link shows you how to do shots.

http://spotinjections.com/index3.htm

Most do there shots on there own and use a 25g x 1 " lg. needle. I use a

smaller needle 29g 1ml. x 1/2 " lg. and shoot into my thigh been doing this for

yrs. and my levels are all good.

Myron Casey <myroncasey@...> wrote:

I was told that after 10 ml, androgel is not known be effective, and

not studies have been done. I asked my doc this because I am on 10 ml and it's

doing very little and extremely expenses. HE IS A PCP AND DID KNOW MUCH ABOUT

THE SHOTS. how can I EDUCATE HIM AND MYSELF ABOUT THE SHOTS?

joe <jadonahuejr@...> wrote: I have been on 10mg of androgel for about one

year and do not see a

big difference. Went to endo this week for check up and lab test. I

asked about T injections and was told not to give up on gel just yet.

The new lab report showed a total testosterone of 171 so the endo just

increased my dose to 15 mg for the next six weeks before another blood

test.

Has anyone had a good experience with androgel?

September 24, 2008

Hi and Welcome,

When we start on T meds are brain sees this in the blood and stops sending the

messages LH and FSH to the testis to make more T. So if your 5g.s took you up

to 108 when you first started on it you might have gone up to 153 and this is

not much. But it will be enough to slow down your LH and FSH messages to your

testis so the 45 they were making is not gone.

Your not going to do good on Androgel take my word for it you need to switch to

shots starting with a jump start shot of 200mgs then 100mgs every week. Tell

your Dr. to show you how to do them shots. We all do them and the cost is much

lower then gels a lot lower cost.

As for your irritable and depressed feelings with your loss of wood this in high

Estradiol " E2 " levels test this and get on some arimdex to get it down.

If your levels are very high like over 60 do a .5 mgs or one half a one mg. Pill

of Arimidex every other day until you get your wood back then do this every 3

days. If you lose your wood on this your going down to low and this is just as

bad as to high. So stop the arimidex until your wood comes back then lower the

dose to .25mgs or 1/4 of a one mg. pill every 3 days your wood is your best gage

on your best E2 levels. So doing this and labs you should be fine. If you

can't get your Dr. to give you arimidex try this OTC supplement called

Indoplex/DIM do only one table at dinner time. Do the above if after your wood

comes back you lose it again. When it comes back cut the DIM tablet in half.

Here is a good link about this.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/89/3/1174

This is the best DIM I have found it works there is a lot of junk out there.

http://www.ritecare.com/prodsheets/PHY-15336.html

If you go on shots don't let your Dr. give you time every 2 weeks this is dam

old and puts you on a rollar coaster ride up after the shot and down low by the

next one. For the best in TRT go to www.allthingsmale.com and read TRT: A

Recipe for Success and his HCG Update Dr. puts this on his site free for us

and the Dr.'s he is one of the best male hormone Dr.'s out there.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: rrradioman <rrradioman1@...>

> Subject: ANDROGEL

>

> Date: Wednesday, September 24, 2008, 11:25 AM

> I was using AndroGel at 5 gm. per day.

>

> Eight weeks ago my level was 764. I am 58.

>

> I have been irritable, depressed, having night sweats,

> and no nocturnal woodies for about 4-5 weeks. Lousy sleep

> too.

>

> I had my T-level checked Monday and it was 108. When first

> diagnosed

> with low T in 11/06, my T-level was 45.

>

> Any thoughts on why the drop? I have just started 7.5 GM

> per day.

> Any thoughts on where it is best to apply AndroGel. I have

> a chubby

> middle. I read that T won't pass through fat well.

> I've lost 45#

> while taking AndroGel and the slow weight loss stopped 4-5

> weeks ago

> too.

>

> It feels good to go from size 52 to 46 slacks. The 46

> slacks are a

> little bit big on me. I want thing to go back to the way

> they were.

> I want to lose 30# more.

>

> ------------------------------------

>

September 24, 2008

Hi Phil:

Thanks for the reply.

Doctors found my T-level was 45 the day after brain surgery. Not

pituitary tumor or cancer though.

I got shots every two weeks while in the hospital and switched three

days after a shot to 5 gm. of Androgel at home.

Old Mr. almost always was at attention then. I read where

AndroGel would give me prostate cancer, so stopped using it

for five months.

I spoke with my family doctor and he said if I had the cancer cells

it was a matter of time before I got cancer. He checks PSA, etc.

to ensure everything is Ok. He sadly told me so many men come to him

with prostate cancer after it's too late and he can't help them. He's

all for HRT for guys too.

I started on 5 gm of Andrgel and my T-level went to 214. Then

continued to rise until it hit 714 and then 764. Two months later it

is

down to 108! He raised the dosage to 7.5 gm today and I get checked

in three weeks.

Which is better. Arm/shoulder or chubby tummy to apply the AndroGel?

Is there another unrecommended place to apply it?

I will ask Dr. about Estradiol lab test. I get my blood work in the

mornings. Where do you get Indoplex?

I will check the two links you gave me plus Dr. . My Dr. is very

receptive to articles from the Internet from which he

can learn to give better patient care.

I will update everyone as I go along here.

>

> > From: rrradioman <rrradioman1@...>

> > Subject: ANDROGEL

> >

> > Date: Wednesday, September 24, 2008, 11:25 AM

> > I was using AndroGel at 5 gm. per day.

> >

> > Eight weeks ago my level was 764. I am 58.

> >

> > I have been irritable, depressed, having night sweats,

> > and no nocturnal woodies for about 4-5 weeks. Lousy sleep

> > too.

> >

> > I had my T-level checked Monday and it was 108. When first

> > diagnosed

> > with low T in 11/06, my T-level was 45.

> >

> > Any thoughts on why the drop? I have just started 7.5 GM

> > per day.

> > Any thoughts on where it is best to apply AndroGel. I have

> > a chubby

> > middle. I read that T won't pass through fat well.

> > I've lost 45#

> > while taking AndroGel and the slow weight loss stopped 4-5

> > weeks ago

> > too.

> >

> > It feels good to go from size 52 to 46 slacks. The 46

> > slacks are a

> > little bit big on me. I want thing to go back to the way

> > they were.

> > I want to lose 30# more.

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

September 24, 2008

Hi Gray,

It's not possible to hit high levels like your talking about on 5g.'s of gel.

You need to do labs first thing in the morning after taking a good shower and

not putting on the gel until after you do labs.

You must have spiked up your labs any gel left on your arm where they take the

blood will give a higher reading then you have. It is possible for the gels to

quit working in a shot time. If you were doing your labs the right way. I see

this all the time you might need to switch to shots.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: rrradioman <rrradioman1@...>

> Subject: Re: ANDROGEL

>

> Date: Wednesday, September 24, 2008, 1:50 PM

> Hi Phil:

>

> Thanks for the reply.

>

> Doctors found my T-level was 45 the day after brain

> surgery. Not

> pituitary tumor or cancer though.

>

> I got shots every two weeks while in the hospital and

> switched three

> days after a shot to 5 gm. of Androgel at home.

> Old Mr. almost always was at attention then. I read

> where

> AndroGel would give me prostate cancer, so stopped using it

> for five months.

>

> I spoke with my family doctor and he said if I had the

> cancer cells

> it was a matter of time before I got cancer. He checks PSA,

> etc.

> to ensure everything is Ok. He sadly told me so many men

> come to him

> with prostate cancer after it's too late and he

> can't help them. He's

> all for HRT for guys too.

>

> I started on 5 gm of Andrgel and my T-level went to 214.

> Then

> continued to rise until it hit 714 and then 764. Two

> months later it

> is

> down to 108! He raised the dosage to 7.5 gm today and I

> get checked

> in three weeks.

>

> Which is better. Arm/shoulder or chubby tummy to apply the

> AndroGel?

> Is there another unrecommended place to apply it?

>

> I will ask Dr. about Estradiol lab test. I get my blood

> work in the

> mornings. Where do you get Indoplex?

>

> I will check the two links you gave me plus Dr. . My

> Dr. is very

> receptive to articles from the Internet from which he

> can learn to give better patient care.

>

> I will update everyone as I go along here.

>

> >

> > > From: rrradioman <rrradioman1@...>

> > > Subject: ANDROGEL

> > >

> > > Date: Wednesday, September 24, 2008, 11:25 AM

> > > I was using AndroGel at 5 gm. per day.

> > >

> > > Eight weeks ago my level was 764. I am 58.

> > >

> > > I have been irritable, depressed, having night

> sweats,

> > > and no nocturnal woodies for about 4-5 weeks.

> Lousy sleep

> > > too.

> > >

> > > I had my T-level checked Monday and it was 108.

> When first

> > > diagnosed

> > > with low T in 11/06, my T-level was 45.

> > >

> > > Any thoughts on why the drop? I have just started

> 7.5 GM

> > > per day.

> > > Any thoughts on where it is best to apply

> AndroGel. I have

> > > a chubby

> > > middle. I read that T won't pass through fat

> well.

> > > I've lost 45#

> > > while taking AndroGel and the slow weight loss

> stopped 4-5

> > > weeks ago

> > > too.

> > >

> > > It feels good to go from size 52 to 46 slacks.

> The 46

> > > slacks are a

> > > little bit big on me. I want thing to go back to

> the way

> > > they were.

> > > I want to lose 30# more.

> > >

> > > ------------------------------------

> > >

September 24, 2008

On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 15:25:02 -0000, you wrote:

>Eight weeks ago my level was 764. I am 58.

>

>I have been irritable, depressed, having night sweats,

>and no nocturnal woodies for about 4-5 weeks. Lousy sleep too.

>

>I had my T-level checked Monday and it was 108. When first diagnosed

>with low T in 11/06, my T-level was 45.

>

>Any thoughts on why the drop? I have just started 7.5 GM per day.

>Any thoughts on where it is best to apply AndroGel. I have a chubby

>middle. I read that T won't pass through fat well. I've lost 45#

>while taking AndroGel and the slow weight loss stopped 4-5 weeks ago

>too.

>

>It feels good to go from size 52 to 46 slacks. The 46 slacks are a

>little bit big on me. I want thing to go back to the way they were.

>I want to lose 30# more.

>

Lots of us find gel stops working after a time. The skin thickens.

Hair grows. Both interfere with absorbtion. Shots are more reliable.

With T and E2 levels right losing weight is far easier.

September 24, 2008

Phil:

Always before I used the AndroGel on my tummy before the blood tests.

This time I used no AndroGel until I came home. I did shower that

morning.

I actualy felt better earlier on the gel. I was losing about 1#/week.

Now it is more back to the old days.

Shots hurt! My butt was red and black & blue for a month after the two

shots while in the hospital. It felt like the nurse used a horse

needle on me!

I'll give the gel a little longer try here. Do you have suggestions

for less pain if I gave myself the shots twice weekly. Two week

intervals are no good. Shots scare me.

I do need to get over the irritability and depression soon for my

wife's sake. She thinks I am all the Dwarfs rolled into one, except

for HAPPY!

Hi Phil:

Thanks for the reply.

Doctors found my T-level was 45 the day after brain surgery. Not

pituitary tumor or cancer though.

I got shots every two weeks while in the hospital and switched three

days after a shot to 5 gm. of Androgel at home.

Old Mr. almost always was at attention then. I read where

AndroGel would give me prostate cancer, so stopped using it

for five months.

I spoke with my family doctor and he said if I had the cancer cells

it was a matter of time before I got cancer. He checks PSA, etc.

to ensure everything is Ok. He sadly told me so many men come to him

with prostate cancer after it's too late and he can't help them. He's

all for HRT for guys too.

I started on 5 gm of Andrgel and my T-level went to 214. Then

continued to rise until it hit 714 and then 764. Two months later it

is

down to 108! He raised the dosage to 7.5 gm today and I get checked

in three weeks.

Which is better. Arm/shoulder or chubby tummy to apply the AndroGel?

Is there another unrecommended place to apply it?

I will ask Dr. about Estradiol lab test. I get my blood work in the

mornings. Where do you get Indoplex?

I will check the two links you gave me plus Dr. . My Dr. is very

receptive to articles from the Internet from which he

can learn to give better patient care.

I will update everyone as I go along here.

> > >

> > > > From: rrradioman <rrradioman1@>

> > > > Subject: ANDROGEL

> > > >

> > > > Date: Wednesday, September 24, 2008, 11:25 AM

> > > > I was using AndroGel at 5 gm. per day.

> > > >

> > > > Eight weeks ago my level was 764. I am 58.

> > > >

> > > > I have been irritable, depressed, having night

> > sweats,

> > > > and no nocturnal woodies for about 4-5 weeks.

> > Lousy sleep

> > > > too.

> > > >

> > > > I had my T-level checked Monday and it was 108.

> > When first

> > > > diagnosed

> > > > with low T in 11/06, my T-level was 45.

> > > >

> > > > Any thoughts on why the drop? I have just started

> > 7.5 GM

> > > > per day.

> > > > Any thoughts on where it is best to apply

> > AndroGel. I have

> > > > a chubby

> > > > middle. I read that T won't pass through fat

> > well.

> > > > I've lost 45#

> > > > while taking AndroGel and the slow weight loss

> > stopped 4-5

> > > > weeks ago

> > > > too.

> > > >

> > > > It feels good to go from size 52 to 46 slacks.

> > The 46

> > > > slacks are a

> > > > little bit big on me. I want thing to go back to

> > the way

> > > > they were.

> > > > I want to lose 30# more.

> > > >

> > > > ------------------------------------

> > > >

September 24, 2008

I do my shots every 3 days to keep myself more leveled and hold down E2

Estradiol levels.

I use a small 27g 1ml x 1/2 " lg needle shooting into my thigh. No pain at all

the oil comes out slow so I just pull the needle plunger all the way down and

hold it takes about a min. to get my dose. Doing shots like this is not pain

full at all.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: rrradioman <rrradioman1@...>

> Subject: Re: ANDROGEL

>

> Date: Wednesday, September 24, 2008, 5:21 PM

> Phil:

>

> Always before I used the AndroGel on my tummy before the

> blood tests.

> This time I used no AndroGel until I came home. I did

> shower that

> morning.

>

> I actualy felt better earlier on the gel. I was losing

> about 1#/week.

> Now it is more back to the old days.

>

> Shots hurt! My butt was red and black & blue for a month

> after the two

> shots while in the hospital. It felt like the nurse used a

> horse

> needle on me!

>

> I'll give the gel a little longer try here. Do you

> have suggestions

> for less pain if I gave myself the shots twice weekly. Two

> week

> intervals are no good. Shots scare me.

>

> I do need to get over the irritability and depression soon

> for my

> wife's sake. She thinks I am all the Dwarfs rolled

> into one, except

> for HAPPY!

>

> Hi Phil:

>

> Thanks for the reply.

>

> Doctors found my T-level was 45 the day after brain

> surgery. Not

> pituitary tumor or cancer though.

>

> I got shots every two weeks while in the hospital and

> switched three

> days after a shot to 5 gm. of Androgel at home.

> Old Mr. almost always was at attention then. I read

> where

> AndroGel would give me prostate cancer, so stopped using it

> for five months.

>

> I spoke with my family doctor and he said if I had the

> cancer cells

> it was a matter of time before I got cancer. He checks PSA,

> etc.

> to ensure everything is Ok. He sadly told me so many men

> come to him

> with prostate cancer after it's too late and he

> can't help them. He's

> all for HRT for guys too.

>

> I started on 5 gm of Andrgel and my T-level went to 214.

> Then

> continued to rise until it hit 714 and then 764. Two

> months later it

> is

> down to 108! He raised the dosage to 7.5 gm today and I

> get checked

> in three weeks.

>

> Which is better. Arm/shoulder or chubby tummy to apply the

> AndroGel?

> Is there another unrecommended place to apply it?

>

> I will ask Dr. about Estradiol lab test. I get my blood

> work in the

> mornings. Where do you get Indoplex?

>

> I will check the two links you gave me plus Dr. . My

> Dr. is very

> receptive to articles from the Internet from which he

> can learn to give better patient care.

>

> I will update everyone as I go along here.

>

> > > >

> > > > > From: rrradioman <rrradioman1@>

> > > > > Subject: ANDROGEL

> > > > >

> > > > > Date: Wednesday, September 24, 2008,

> 11:25 AM

> > > > > I was using AndroGel at 5 gm. per day.

> > > > >

> > > > > Eight weeks ago my level was 764. I am

> 58.

> > > > >

> > > > > I have been irritable, depressed,

> having night

> > > sweats,

> > > > > and no nocturnal woodies for about 4-5

> weeks.

> > > Lousy sleep

> > > > > too.

> > > > >

> > > > > I had my T-level checked Monday and it

> was 108.

> > > When first

> > > > > diagnosed

> > > > > with low T in 11/06, my T-level was 45.

> > > > >

> > > > > Any thoughts on why the drop? I have

> just started

> > > 7.5 GM

> > > > > per day.

> > > > > Any thoughts on where it is best to

> apply

> > > AndroGel. I have

> > > > > a chubby

> > > > > middle. I read that T won't pass

> through fat

> > > well.

> > > > > I've lost 45#

> > > > > while taking AndroGel and the slow

> weight loss

> > > stopped 4-5

> > > > > weeks ago

> > > > > too.

> > > > >

> > > > > It feels good to go from size 52 to 46

> slacks.

> > > The 46

> > > > > slacks are a

> > > > > little bit big on me. I want thing to

> go back to

> > > the way

> > > > > they were.

> > > > > I want to lose 30# more.

> > > > >

> > > > > ------------------------------------

> > > > >

December 6, 2008

wheres the best place to purchase DIM?

>should i take DIM with androgel (7.5 g/day)? clomid? HCG? I

> exercise daily, 40-60 min of cardio plus an hour of free weight

> training (body part/day, 5 days/week)

>

> last E2 check was 20, test = 600, but that was 6 months ago

>

> advice, thoughts??

>

> ------------------------------------

>

December 7, 2008

don't know about what DIM product is best but if your e2=20 then you

don't need DIM (range 15-25 pg/ml is perfect for estradiol)

>

> wheres the best place to purchase DIM?

> >should i take DIM with androgel (7.5 g/day)? clomid? HCG? I

> > exercise daily, 40-60 min of cardio plus an hour of free weight

> > training (body part/day, 5 days/week)

> >

> > last E2 check was 20, test = 600, but that was 6 months ago

> >

> > advice, thoughts??

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

August 8, 2009

If you started on the 5 gram dose in the first week you can feel some what

better but if in the 2nd. week you feel your self falling back this happens on

this low dose. What is going on here is your starting level the gel adds to it

so you can jump up higher say your starting level was 300 and the 5 gram gel got

you to 500 when your brain sees the added Testosterone on your blood it will

slow down sending the LH and FSH messages to your testis to make Testosterone so

they more or less stop making that 300 and your left lower at the 200 the gel is

doing. So I tell men to retest in 2 weeks to be sure the gels are working most

need more 7.5 to 10 grams.

Yes you can get gyno again this is why you need to keep an eye on your Estradiol

E2 levels being on TRT they can go up for you even if your in good shape and

have low body fat. Do a Quest Estradiol test with each Testosterone test you

have done if your E2 goes up best to be at about 20 pg/ml if your higher then 30

or over 40 you will need to go on some Arimidex to keep it down. I ask men if

they still have there night time and morning wood if not for most of us this is

high levels of E2 and going on .25 mgs of Arimidex every 2 to 3 days the first

thing to come back is this wood I gage my E2 levels by my wood. If on arimidex

you can go to low this is just as bad as to high but will not cause gyno it will

kill your sex life. So if on arimidex and you lose wood this means your going

down to low so just stop the arimidex until wood comes back that day go back on

it but do it every 3 days.

What you need to do to feel your best is to get your Total T levels up into your

labs upper 1/3 of it's range and to keep your E2 levels down to about 20 pg/ml.

Here are the labs I do and I treat my Thyroid so I test this with every lab test

I do my labs every 8 weeks it's best to do this until your leveled off and

feeling better.

=========================================================================

Estradiol sentive Code #4021

Testosterone, Free, Bioavailable & Total LC/MS/MS Code # 14966X.

Homocysteine (Caridioviasular) Code #31789X.

Vit.D, 25-Hydroxy LC/MS/MS Code #17306X.

TSH

Free T4

Free T3

Total T3

Total T4

RT3

Total Iron

Iron Binding Capacity

Iron % Saturation

Ferritin

B-12

========================================================================

Here are some good links to read and watch.

http://www.griffinmedical.com/male_hormone_modulation_therapy.html

http://www.thehiddendisease.com/

It is best not to go on TRT until you know why your low here is Dr. Joh's site

www.allthingsmale.com read TRT: A Recipe for Success and his HCG Update in them

are labs you should have had done and why.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: bigaverica <mavera@...>

> Subject: androgel

>

> Date: Saturday, August 8, 2009, 2:57 PM

> hello..new here.just started on

> androgel...42 years old,in pretty good shape,weight

> lifter...they put me on it cuz i tested low..i dont really

> have a problem with muscle mass but my libido was suffering

> so i had it checked on a lark.

> now,ive read varying accounts about the effectiveness...im

> 2 weeks in and havent noticed too many changes..maybe a

> little more strentgh in the gym...i was wondering about your

> experiences..

> also...i had surgery for gyno some years ago...it was not

> steroid related just something i had all my life and finally

> decided i was sick of wearing 6 shirts in the summer to hide

> it,etc...im sure all you guys whove had it know its a very

> embarassing thing...anyway,i was wondering if the

> androgel use could lead to my gyno coming back...thats

> something i definately do not want to happen........

>

> ------------------------------------

>

August 8, 2009

thanks 4 replying....i mean,when you say " feel better " how do you mean?im

naturally prone to depression and anger and i havent really noticed a difference

there.a very slight improved libido...seemingly a little strentgh...this is day

14,by the way...

when my doc prescribed it she said she wanted to see me in 6 weeks to

retest...should i ask for a sooner date?she also gave me 3 refills...is it ok to

be on this stuff that long?

the gyno scares me...i had itchy nips the other day..and my pecs feel " weird'

sometimes..like something is goin on in there....but is that possible after only

2 weeks on this low dose?funny thing is,when i asked doc about side effects she

just kinda shrugged it off...but..being a woman,perhaps she has no clue about

this stuff...

no puffiness tho...

man,now i thinking i should just shelve this whole project....

---- philip georgian <pmgamer18@...> wrote:

> If you started on the 5 gram dose in the first week you can feel some what

better but if in the 2nd. week you feel your self falling back this happens on

this low dose. What is going on here is your starting level the gel adds to it

so you can jump up higher say your starting level was 300 and the 5 gram gel got

you to 500 when your brain sees the added Testosterone on your blood it will

slow down sending the LH and FSH messages to your testis to make Testosterone so

they more or less stop making that 300 and your left lower at the 200 the gel is

doing. So I tell men to retest in 2 weeks to be sure the gels are working most

need more 7.5 to 10 grams.

>

> Yes you can get gyno again this is why you need to keep an eye on your

Estradiol E2 levels being on TRT they can go up for you even if your in good

shape and have low body fat. Do a Quest Estradiol test with each Testosterone

test you have done if your E2 goes up best to be at about 20 pg/ml if your

higher then 30 or over 40 you will need to go on some Arimidex to keep it down.

I ask men if they still have there night time and morning wood if not for most

of us this is high levels of E2 and going on .25 mgs of Arimidex every 2 to 3

days the first thing to come back is this wood I gage my E2 levels by my wood.

If on arimidex you can go to low this is just as bad as to high but will not

cause gyno it will kill your sex life. So if on arimidex and you lose wood this

means your going down to low so just stop the arimidex until wood comes back

that day go back on it but do it every 3 days.

>

> What you need to do to feel your best is to get your Total T levels up into

your labs upper 1/3 of it's range and to keep your E2 levels down to about 20

pg/ml. Here are the labs I do and I treat my Thyroid so I test this with every

lab test I do my labs every 8 weeks it's best to do this until your leveled off

and feeling better.

> =========================================================================

> Estradiol sentive Code #4021

>

> Testosterone, Free, Bioavailable & Total LC/MS/MS Code # 14966X.

>

> Homocysteine (Caridioviasular) Code #31789X.

>

> Vit.D, 25-Hydroxy LC/MS/MS Code #17306X.

>

> TSH

> Free T4

> Free T3

> Total T3

> Total T4

> RT3

>

> Total Iron

> Iron Binding Capacity

> Iron % Saturation

> Ferritin

> B-12

> ========================================================================

> Here are some good links to read and watch.

> http://www.griffinmedical.com/male_hormone_modulation_therapy.html

> http://www.thehiddendisease.com/

> It is best not to go on TRT until you know why your low here is Dr. Joh's site

www.allthingsmale.com read TRT: A Recipe for Success and his HCG Update in them

are labs you should have had done and why.

> Co-Moderator

> Phil

>

> > From: bigaverica <mavera@...>

> > Subject: androgel

> >

> > Date: Saturday, August 8, 2009, 2:57 PM

> > hello..new here.just started on

> > androgel...42 years old,in pretty good shape,weight

> > lifter...they put me on it cuz i tested low..i dont really

> > have a problem with muscle mass but my libido was suffering

> > so i had it checked on a lark.

> > now,ive read varying accounts about the effectiveness...im

> > 2 weeks in and havent noticed too many changes..maybe a

> > little more strentgh in the gym...i was wondering about your

> > experiences..

> > also...i had surgery for gyno some years ago...it was not

> > steroid related just something i had all my life and finally

> > decided i was sick of wearing 6 shirts in the summer to hide

> > it,etc...im sure all you guys whove had it know its a very

> > embarassing thing...anyway,i wasÂ wondering if the

> > androgel use could lead to my gyno coming back...thats

> > something i definately do not want to happen........

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

October 23, 2009

Phil

Is using androgel like using legal steroids?

Phil

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

Re: Androgel users

> > >

> > > Date: Thursday, October 22, 2009, 10:06 AM

> > >

> > > With out properly ruling out your nutritoinal

> > imbalances as

> > > I mentioned yesterday. Phils going to jump on

> your ass

> > when

> > > he hears about how many fish oil you take for so

> > long.

> > > With out primary or secondary one can not gauge

> this

> > answer.

> > > That is like asking are the phillies going to

> win

> > world

> > > series and being 100% sure. After our

> conversation

> > I

> > > may know where the imbalances lies and it has

> been

> > seen in

> > > many other patients as well.

> > >

> > > >

> > > > Hi guys,

> > > >

> > > > I was recently confirmed of having very

> low,

> > > abnormally low testerone with free levels at 8am

> at

> > 114

> > > total and 25 of like 60 free test. Not sure of

> the

> > free

> > > number reference range.

> > > >

> > > > Regardless, endo wants to scan MRI for

> possible

> > tumor

> > > on pituitary gland that can be hampering test

> > > production.

> > > >

> > > > Im working with hardasnails, or soon will

> be,

> > hpefully

> > > for a second opinion.

> > > >

> > > > Anyway, she told me that I will need to use

> > androgel

> > > forever.I just turned 31 today.

> > > > Has anyone here used this product with good

> > results?

> > > >

> > > > What im hoping for, if I do in fact need

> this, is

> > to

> > > experience improvement in the following

> > > > 1. Sex drive

> > > > 2. Concentration

> > > > 3. Ability to pack on muscle and drop body

> fat in

> > the

> > > gym.

> > > > 4. Eliminate my mild insomnia.

> > > > 5. get rid of my bad memory.

> > > > 6. Bad mood swings that sometimes feel like

> > > depression.

> > > >

> > > > I know that this wont happen overnight. From

> my

> > > undertanding, it could take a few weeks to

> several

> > months to

> > > kick in full effect.

> > > > However, the endo told me that within a

> month or

> > two I

> > > should feel like a new person.

> > > >

> > > > Does this appear to be right from anyone who

> has

> > been

> > > using this product?

> > > >

> > > > im goin for a second opinion, hopefully,

> with

> > > hardasnails to make sure that there isnt an

> > underlying

> > > reason my body isn't producing testerone like it

> > should.

> > > However, it has been determine that it is very

> likely

> > > genetic from my moms side.

> > > >

> > > > Any ideas?

> > > >

> > > > Thanks guys!

> > > >

> > >

> > > ------------ --------- --------- ------

> > >

October 23, 2009

Any testosterone is a steroid but we like to think it's treatment of a health

problem.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> > >

> > > > From: hardasnails1973 <hardasnails1973@

> > > comcast.net>

> > > > Subject: Re: Androgel users

> > > >

> > > > Date: Thursday, October 22, 2009, 10:06 AM

> > > >

> > > > With out properly ruling out your

> nutritoinal

> > > imbalances as

> > > > I mentioned yesterday. Phils going to jump

> on

> > your ass

> > > when

> > > > he hears about how many fish oil you take

> for so

> > > long.

> > > > With out primary or secondary one can not

> gauge

> > this

> > > answer.

> > > > That is like asking are the phillies going

> to

> > win

> > > world

> > > > series and being 100% sure. After our

> > conversation

> > > I

> > > > may know where the imbalances lies and it

> has

> > been

> > > seen in

> > > > many other patients as well.

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Hi guys,

> > > > >

> > > > > I was recently confirmed of having

> very

> > low,

> > > > abnormally low testerone with free levels at

> 8am

> > at

> > > 114

> > > > total and 25 of like 60 free test. Not sure

> of

> > the

> > > free

> > > > number reference range.

> > > > >

> > > > > Regardless, endo wants to scan MRI for

> > possible

> > > tumor

> > > > on pituitary gland that can be hampering

> test

> > > > production.

> > > > >

> > > > > Im working with hardasnails, or soon

> will

> > be,

> > > hpefully

> > > > for a second opinion.

> > > > >

> > > > > Anyway, she told me that I will need to

> use

> > > androgel

> > > > forever.I just turned 31 today.

> > > > > Has anyone here used this product with

> good

> > > results?

> > > > >

> > > > > What im hoping for, if I do in fact

> need

> > this, is

> > > to

> > > > experience improvement in the following

> > > > > 1. Sex drive

> > > > > 2. Concentration

> > > > > 3. Ability to pack on muscle and drop

> body

> > fat in

> > > the

> > > > gym.

> > > > > 4. Eliminate my mild insomnia.

> > > > > 5. get rid of my bad memory.

> > > > > 6. Bad mood swings that sometimes feel

> like

> > > > depression.

> > > > >

> > > > > I know that this wont happen overnight.

> From

> > my

> > > > undertanding, it could take a few weeks to

> > several

> > > months to

> > > > kick in full effect.

> > > > > However, the endo told me that within

> a

> > month or

> > > two I

> > > > should feel like a new person.

> > > > >

> > > > > Does this appear to be right from

> anyone who

> > has

> > > been

> > > > using this product?

> > > > >

> > > > > im goin for a second opinion,

> hopefully,

> > with

> > > > hardasnails to make sure that there isnt an

> > > underlying

> > > > reason my body isn't producing testerone

> like it

> > > should.

> > > > However, it has been determine that it is

> very

> > likely

> > > > genetic from my moms side.

> > > > >

> > > > > Any ideas?

> > > > >

> > > > > Thanks guys!

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------

> > > >

October 23, 2009

I am 65 getting over heart bypass sugary and I was out cold 17 weeks I lost so

much muscle I could not push a button to call a nurse when I came to. I had to

learn to walk again I got out of the hosp. last Feb. Today in the weight room at

the Old Persons Club I workout 90 min's 3x's a week.

I worm up for 20 min's on the Elliptical Crosstrainers. Then I go into the

weight room and work all my muscle groups on the weight machines. I do 3 sets

of 10 reps and have my load now at a higher level then I was using before my

heart sugary. I got a good pump on my muscles today so If I can do this on TRT

anyone can.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> > > >

> > > > > From: hardasnails1973

> <hardasnails1973@

> > > > comcast.net>

> > > > > Subject: Re: Androgel

> users

> > > > >

> > > > > Date: Thursday, October 22, 2009, 10:06

> AM

> > > > >

> > > > > With out properly ruling out your

> > nutritoinal

> > > > imbalances as

> > > > > I mentioned yesterday. Phils going to

> jump

> > on

> > > your ass

> > > > when

> > > > > he hears about how many fish oil you

> take

> > for so

> > > > long.

> > > > > With out primary or secondary one can

> not

> > gauge

> > > this

> > > > answer.

> > > > > That is like asking are the phillies

> going

> > to

> > > win

> > > > world

> > > > > series and being 100% sure. After

> our

> > > conversation

> > > > I

> > > > > may know where the imbalances lies and

> it

> > has

> > > been

> > > > seen in

> > > > > many other patients as well.

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Hi guys,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I was recently confirmed of

> having

> > very

> > > low,

> > > > > abnormally low testerone with free

> levels at

> > 8am

> > > at

> > > > 114

> > > > > total and 25 of like 60 free test. Not

> sure

> > of

> > > the

> > > > free

> > > > > number reference range.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Regardless, endo wants to scan MRI

> for

> > > possible

> > > > tumor

> > > > > on pituitary gland that can be

> hampering

> > test

> > > > > production.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Im working with hardasnails, or

> soon

> > will

> > > be,

> > > > hpefully

> > > > > for a second opinion.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Anyway, she told me that I will

> need to

> > use

> > > > androgel

> > > > > forever.I just turned 31 today.

> > > > > > Has anyone here used this product

> with

> > good

> > > > results?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > What im hoping for, if I do in

> fact

> > need

> > > this, is

> > > > to

> > > > > experience improvement in the

> following

> > > > > > 1. Sex drive

> > > > > > 2. Concentration

> > > > > > 3. Ability to pack on muscle and

> drop

> > body

> > > fat in

> > > > the

> > > > > gym.

> > > > > > 4. Eliminate my mild insomnia.

> > > > > > 5. get rid of my bad memory.

> > > > > > 6. Bad mood swings that sometimes

> feel

> > like

> > > > > depression.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I know that this wont happen

> overnight.

> > From

> > > my

> > > > > undertanding, it could take a few weeks

> to

> > > several

> > > > months to

> > > > > kick in full effect.

> > > > > > However, the endo told me that

> within

> > a

> > > month or

> > > > two I

> > > > > should feel like a new person.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Does this appear to be right from

> > anyone who

> > > has

> > > > been

> > > > > using this product?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > im goin for a second opinion,

> > hopefully,

> > > with

> > > > > hardasnails to make sure that there

> isnt an

> > > > underlying

> > > > > reason my body isn't producing

> testerone

> > like it

> > > > should.

> > > > > However, it has been determine that it

> is

> > very

> > > likely

> > > > > genetic from my moms side.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Any ideas?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Thanks guys!

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > ------------ --------- ---------

> ------

> > > > >

November 9, 2009

Phil,

I know I've asked this before and I apologize, but i lost your response. Im in

day 3 of androgrl now at 5 g per day.

How long do you think before i feel it, knowing that everyone is different?

Thanks!

Phil

________________________________

From: philip georgian <pmgamer18@...>

Sent: Mon, November 9, 2009 10:58:29 AM

Subject: Re: Testim Gel - shower after 2 hours???

Â

Yes I think so yet one needs to know it's working like Dr. M says some can't do

gels and creams it just dose not get through the skin.

============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= =

Transdermal Hormone Replacement

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaos

What is your opinion as to the steadiest release from a transdermal. I used them

prior to injectibles, but my testosterone never increased, just DHT. I used

androgel and a 10% PLO.

People on the boards told me I didn't absorb (since T didn't increase), but my

doc said the increase in DHT was proof something absorbed, though he was

uncertain as to why all of it seemed to go to DHT.

Speaking to your comment, he postulated I absorbed it " in one shot " as opposed

to a steady release, so I therefore had a spike in DHT, similar to the spike the

day after an IM injection.

Ideally, for hormone replacement therapy, the transdermally based hormone is

transferred into the fat layer of the skin. From there, the hormone can be

released gradually into the bloodstream, producing stable level.

Alcohol-based gels are more useful for hormone replacement since they allow the

hormone to be absorbed into the skin fat and to be slowly released into the

blood stream.

Oil-based transdermal gels or creams - such as the PLO gels - are good for

rapidly introducing substances into the system. They aren't as useful for

hormone replacement therapy because they cause the hormone to bypass the skin

fat and allow the hormone to directly go into the blood stream. This causes a

large peak and a rapid fall in blood levels.

Both alcohol-based and oil-based gels or creams will result in good absorption

generally. They generally result in predictable blood levels of hormones and

medications. If the blood level does not go up, then it is not being absorbed.

Thus if a testosterone transdermal does not result in an appreciable increase in

testosterone it is not well absorbed.

Some people will have difficult absorbing a transdermal preparation. For

example, people with hypothyroidism, can develop mxedema. This is a thickening

of the skin due to the accumulation of mucin - a glue that holds cells together.

This prevents transdermal absorption. In my patients, if a person develops lower

thyroid hormone levels from either transdermal testosterone or estradiol,

testosterone and estradiol levels fall. When I address thyroid hormone,

testosterone and estradiol will again be abssorbed and levels rise. Other

reasons for non-absorption include possible ethnic differences or genetic

differences in skin such as oilier skin, etc.

One other reason a hormone level does not go up is that the dose used is too

low. For example, many patients are given one 5 gram packet of Androgel to use.

This is too low for many men. Since there is negative feedback controlling

testosterone production, at a certain dose, the dose is too low to make up for

the loss of one's testicular testosterone production, when exogenous

testosterone is added. Testosterone level actually will decrease when only 1

5-gram pack is used in many men. The percentage of men where testosterone will

be low rather than high decreases when two 5-gram packs of Androgel are used.

This would be the starting dose I would use. In these men, there is evidence of

absorption - such as DHT (dihydrotestosteron e) levels going up. But

testosterone is either the same or LOWER. In these men, testosterone in Androgel

IS absorbed. But the dose is too low.

____________ ______

-

Romeo B. no, MD, physician, psychiatrist

Any information provided on www.definitivemind. com is for informational

purposes only, is not medical advice, does not create a doctor/patient

relationship or liability, is not exhaustive, does not cover all conditions or

their treatment, and will change as knowledge progresses. Always seek the advice

of your physician or other qualified health provider before undertaking any

diet, exercise, supplement, medical, or other health program.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: jim <virtuosa150>

> Subject: Re: Testim Gel - shower after 2 hours???

>

> Date: Sunday, November 8, 2009, 9:12 PM

> Would this be the same for a

> compounded cream?

>

> >

> > > From: Dave <dcbaden@... >

> > > Subject: Testim Gel - shower after

> 2 hours???

> > >

> > > Date: Sunday, November 8, 2009, 4:03 PM

> > > I see that the company says you can

> > > shower after you have the gel on for 2 hours.Â

> > >

> > > Anyone do this?

> > >

> > > I'm afraid that they're just writing that for

> marketing

> > > purposes - to make the product seem more

> convenient.Â

> > >

> > > I'd think it would cut down your absorption

> significantly

> > > and I'm kinda reluctant to do so.

> > >

> > > Opinions?

> > >

> > > ------------ --------- --------- ------

> > >

November 9, 2009

Phil and Hardasnails,

I was wondering, since I am going to start using androgrl daily, 5 g, is this

like using prohromones in any way?

reason I ask is because my endo AND family doctor both told me that once I

replace mt non existent natural test with this stuff, it could very well be that

I experience more strength and size and ability to change my body comp much

easier as opposed to having this hormone abscent which it has been for some time

now.

I was thinking because dont prohormones do the same thing in a sense, shut down

natural production?

what would be the arm of double the dose to 10g a day vs the prescribed 5?

thanks guys!

Phil

________________________________

From: phil nicolaou <ifpacpt@...>

Sent: Mon, November 9, 2009 11:34:18 AM

Subject: Re: androgel

Phil,

I know I've asked this before and I apologize, but i lost your response. Im in

day 3 of androgrl now at 5 g per day.

How long do you think before i feel it, knowing that everyone is different?

Thanks!

Phil

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From: philip georgian <pmgamer18 (DOT) com>