Re: Re: How long does it take to see increase in T levels after starting Androgel?

[Guest guest]

I have been taking Androgel for several years and never had E2 checked ubtil I

requested it.

Many MD's know little of testosterone therapy and what blood parameters need

examined. Have your hubby tell your doctoe exactly what tests should be

conducted.

Having said that E2 is not a problem for most of us taking Androgel simply

because the testosterone is absorbed so slowly that there is not a spike in

testosterone so it won't convert to E2; it should be checked however. With that

dose of anfrogel my guess his E2 is fine (< 20) but have it checked. My concern

about your post is the relatively low dose of androgel-- ask Doctor to up dosage

for month and then retest all bloods parameters related to testosteronre

(including E2). What is really important is how HE FEELS' his libido, etc.

Re: How long does it take to see increase in T levels

after starting Androgel?

Retrogrouch and Houstonatknight,

Sorry I responded to the wrong thread.....

Thanks for your feedback. Finally found the file with previous lab

results...here goes.

May, 2005 (age 49)- Total Testosterone 925

November, 2008 (age 52) - Total Testosterone 561 (250-1100)

Free Testost - 84.6 (46-224)

Sex Hormone BG - 31 (18-47)

Testos Bioavail - 155.5 (110-575)

PCP prescribed 4 pumps androgel daily starting mid-December, 2008

January 23, 2009

Total Testosterone - 522 (250-1100)

Free Testost - 80.5 (35-155)

Sex Hormone BG - 31 (18-47)

Endocrinologist's comments: testosterone much improved, continue

current dose.

He has never had E2 checked, I didn't even know about this test until

reading recent posts on this. Why wouldn't doctors check this?

He went to PCP yesterday who said keep on the current dose even

though the levels dropped. He said it could take up to 6 months for

levels to increase which is not what I'm reading from all of you

guys. PCP originally put him on Androgel in Dec '08 to help with ED

and from what I read, that won't cure ED. I have very serious

reservations about whether the PCP really knows what he's doing.

Further complicating factors that may or may not affect T levels are

that hubby has cardiomyopathy (heart failure)and A-Fib (atrial

fibrilation) and is taking a slew of meds including beta blocker, ACE

inhibitor, digoxin, coumadin, antiarrhythmic, Crestor, mirapex

(restless leg syndrome), and Metformin (diabetes).

I'm really not feeling confident in his PCP and now I question the

endocrinologist as well. Any advice from you guys?

> >

> > >Hubby's t levels were around 550 and his PCP put him on 4

pumps/day of

> > >androgel. About 7 weeks later he had an appointment with an

endo who

> > >tested t levels and they were still around 550. (I can't

remember the

> > >exact numbers).

> > >

> > >Today he had an appointment with his PCP and asked about

increasing

> the

> > >androgel dose since t levels hadn't changed. PCP said it can take

> up to

> > >6 months to see a change in T levels......is this right? From

what

> > >I've read, T levels change pretty quickly.

> > >

> > >Thanks for your help.

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> > Can you get us the numbers?

> >

> > 550 is a perfectly adequate total T level for natural production.

> > Especially given that T levels can vary by 200 points within an

hour.

> > When you say these were his levels before Androgel, was he doing

some

> > other for of T therapy?

> >

> > I don't understand why he would be put on androgel with a 550

level.

> > If he was the Dr. does not understand T. You can supplement T.

Your

> > body's feedback mechanisms will see the added levels and produce

less.

> > T is a REPLACEMENT therapy. All of the T in the body will come

from

> > the replacement source - the androgel. To mess with the feedback

loop

> > (of hormones LH, FSH, and E2 ) without cause is to risk messing

things

> > up long term.

> >

> > Perhaps I misunderstood your post, but from what I think I see

your

> > PCP is screwing this up.

> >

> > Tell us more about your husbands numbers, test results and the

PCP's

> > rationale.

> >

> I agree 100% with the comment above. Think of it this way, your

> husband's body 'wants' his T level to be 550 (which is not at all

> bad). If he adds exogenous (external sourced) testosterone, the body

> will lower his natural production of T until it goes back to 550.

The

> only way for him to have more than a temporary spike in T level is

to

> replace his natural production entirely. Of course, then his

> testicles will shut down and he should then be thinking about

cycling

> his usage of testosterone supplementation so that he doesn't shut

down

> permanently. But with a T level of 550 why do this? The comment

about

> the feedback loop above is right on. A better approach might be to

do

> things to lower his levels of estrogen (estradiol, to be more

> specific) as this is the real determiner of T levels. His doc may

(or

> may not) be willing to do this with meds such as Arimidex or

Clomid.

> There is some good research on this. Anyway, this could increase

his

> T level moderately without having to replace the entirety of his T

> production and messing with all kinds of other hormones. There are

> even dietary things he can do to lower his estrogen level and

various

> supplements such as indole-3-carbinol or it's extract,

> diindolylmethane (DIM). Science suggests that these things really

> work and it's much preferable to testosterone gel for someone with a

> natural level of 550. If you want him to be a little friskier on the

> weekends, he can try horny goat weed.. better than viagra. If he is

> motivated but things don't work the way they used to, then he can

try

> arginine ethyl esther. It must be the esther form though. Thx for

> listening.

>

--

[Guest guest]

On Fri, 27 Feb 2009 22:38:37 -0000, you wrote:

>Retrogrouch and Houstonatknight,

>

>Sorry I responded to the wrong thread.....

>

>Thanks for your feedback. Finally found the file with previous lab

>results...here goes.

>

>May, 2005 (age 49)- Total Testosterone 925

>

>November, 2008 (age 52) - Total Testosterone 561 (250-1100)

>Free Testost - 84.6 (46-224)

>Sex Hormone BG - 31 (18-47)

>Testos Bioavail - 155.5 (110-575)

>PCP prescribed 4 pumps androgel daily starting mid-December, 2008

>

>January 23, 2009

>Total Testosterone - 522 (250-1100)

>Free Testost - 80.5 (35-155)

>Sex Hormone BG - 31 (18-47)

>Endocrinologist's comments: testosterone much improved, continue

>current dose.

>

>He has never had E2 checked, I didn't even know about this test until

>reading recent posts on this. Why wouldn't doctors check this?

>

>He went to PCP yesterday who said keep on the current dose even

>though the levels dropped. He said it could take up to 6 months for

>levels to increase which is not what I'm reading from all of you

>guys. PCP originally put him on Androgel in Dec '08 to help with ED

>and from what I read, that won't cure ED. I have very serious

>reservations about whether the PCP really knows what he's doing.

>

>Further complicating factors that may or may not affect T levels are

>that hubby has cardiomyopathy (heart failure)and A-Fib (atrial

>fibrilation) and is taking a slew of meds including beta blocker, ACE

>inhibitor, digoxin, coumadin, antiarrhythmic, Crestor, mirapex

>(restless leg syndrome), and Metformin (diabetes).

>

>I'm really not feeling confident in his PCP and now I question the

>endocrinologist as well. Any advice from you guys?

If T is above 500 there are no ED problems from that corner. It's far

more likely high E2 is leading to ED. Much of anything above 40 ng/ml

present problems. Ideal is probably 25 to 30.

These doctors sound dangerous. It's utter nonsense that it takes

months for levels to rise on androgel. And no one should be started on

TRT when there natural levels are in the 500s.

Get an e2 test and find someone else.

[Guest guest]

On Mon, 02 Mar 2009 06:33:29 -0000, you wrote:

>

>One more thing to think about - he's over 50, so he's a big boy by

>now. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but if he's SO not interested in his

>own health so as to require you to write in this group for him,

>perhaps there are other (psychological) reasons for his ED. Maybe, he

>just can't be bothered...

Wow. I'm surprised at these kinds of posts of late. Anyone who's had

very high or low E2 or low T should understand how screwed up hormones

can rob you of the drive to take care of important things.

He's lucky to have a caring spouse who will help get him to where he

can then do it himself.

I am always admiring of the women who come here. I fear some have been

driving these brave caring women out of here of late.

It'll be a poorer place if we lose the partners perspective here.

[Guest guest]

Or you can show a little compassion and understanding. Simple enough.

Your choice.

You sound like someone with a lot of anger. Lots of us come from this

condition with a lot of issues given how much people associate

testosterone and penises with manhood. And way to many men have really

twisted ideas of what it means to be a man. The anxiety and fear here

is always palpable. And the anger often close to the surface. The

resentment towards women that can come from years of anxiety because

of sexual problems brought about by these conditions is also

prevalent.

To get to a meaningful happy existence we have to move past these

things.

To me being a man is extending kindness and compassion, and refraining

from violence until absolutely necessary.

There's a reason the knights who subscribed to the code of chivalry-

which was largely about rules around violence and caring for the weak

- asked for the title of " gentle man " . Too many guys think it's manly

a bully and an asshole. I look at how Hip Hop talks about women and

have to think those guys will never get there.

You've been through a lot. Lots of us have. And while it might make

you feel good to believe it was all you, I'm fairly certain you got

compassion and help along the way to make it possible.

It took me till 45 to figure out life is better with human connection

and asking for help.

You can go back to the Oprah jokes now if you wish. But I am happily

married, with two successful kids. I'm a mountaineer and wilderness

traveler who's spent almost three years living outdoors in remote

wilderness. I can schlep 80 pounds for weeks on end, and bike 100s of

miles a week. I don't have any issues with my own masculinity.

On Tue, 03 Mar 2009 15:42:14 -0000, you wrote:

>,

>

>Wow maybe you are not a moderator, hmmm? Maybe you need to go to

>jazzercise or go watch Oprah some more. See the title of this group?

> Have you actually taken the time to read its description? There is a

>reason why discussion groups have a scope.

>

>I happen to agree with his statement. If he is over 50 and so

>disinterested in his own well being then let Darwin take effect, one

>less free ride. People use to stoke blast furnaces for 10-12 hours a

>day and this guy can't get off his ass to run a google search or

>participate in a group.

>

>I have taken 3 years to digest over 30,000 pages and counting. I have

>discharged over 15 doctors, requested labs, self diagnosed and engaged

>the necessary therapies and have arrested my CPPD for over two years,

>which was misdiagnosed by at least 3 doctors, chelated myself, tested

>myself, validated the results and was relentless and then diagnosed

>how hemochromatosis resulted in secondary hypogonadism, all by myself.

>

>This is after coming back from 50% paralysis. I have had pain that

>two hydrocodone 10-500's wouldn't dent, but I forced myself to find

>the answer. I would sit with a foot the size of a football with pain

>that made you want to off and a bicep rolled up onto my shoulder due

>to the CPPD caused by hemochromatosis.

>

>You adapt, persevere or perish. Then again you are the grandmaster,

>although not moderator, of effective discourse and your brothers

>keeper. Thanks for setting us all straight.

>

>Tom U

[Guest guest]

On Wed, 04 Mar 2009 14:34:31 -0000, you wrote:

>

>Thanks for the laugh . Since you appreciate nature you can appreciate the

roles and order nature has provided for us. When that balance is discharged so

is the harmony that is intended. Women's greatest strength is their femininity

and men their masculinity as two sides of the same coin. What we get in the

workplace is women trying to emulate men and men not assuming responsibility.

That's a nice excuse. You want she should be barefoot and pregnant and

chained to the stove? That was the old " nature " argument. It's

nature's " intent " is just an excuse to avoid examining issues in my

book. It is up there with " it is written " or " it is god's will "

>While I am quick to anger, it is usually over righteous indignation such as

fighting corruption on your behalf, not as a job, but as a person with

conviction, with over $250 million returned to the treasury and I have no idea

how much in collective amounts saved which would be somewhere in the billions.

>

>What you read and hear about in the news I engage daily, why? Conviction,

right, wrong, black, white, order, law, justice, and fighting like hell for

those who can't. You can blame Rosey the Riveter, but that only goes so far.

You really value your anger. And good things can come from it. It

seems you may enjoy the anger for the angers sake some.

>Balance requires order and for order to exists within the genders, which forms

families, communities and nations it requires the submission from the woman and

compassion and caring from the man. Since you are a family man I am sure you can

appreciate that you assume certain responsibilities and your wife hers.

Submission? LOL. No equality for you, aye? How's that working out

for you?

>It is deplorable and unacceptable to me to have a women come into a forum/group

scoped to hypogonadism with definition, bitch about not getting laid and then

describing how she feminizes the man in her life and belittles him. I have seen

this up close and personal on more than one occasion and nothing good ever

survives this imbalance.

Or perhaps your reaction to it?

>Conversely, if she came from a place of femininity as a " helpmate " , and not a

condescending bitch, she would have all the compassion she could ever want from

me. There simply is right and wrong and if she wants the respect and compassion

then she needs to act like a lady instead of degrading and condescending. There

are plenty of other womens groups and forums for her to go rant.

Sorry I think she pushed a big button for you. I suspect you are the

only person who saw her as " condescending " and " bitching " . Most of us

saw someone who married a seriously ill person and paid a big price

for it waiting for him to get well. Most women frankly would have left

him by now. SO I admire that she stuck with him out of love. Now he's

well and she sees the change and she says simply she wish'd it

happened sooner and she resents it took so long to get him to address

it.

Thing is the illness is so debilitating for many it robs you of the

ability to go after the cure. Lots of us need some help to get that

first T test and then push on to therapy. It's a function of the

illness.

IMHO Your issues with women led you dump on her and unload. DO you

really think that approach is going to make her change a behavior? Or

is it all about you getting to vent a " righteous rage " ? If you really

wanted her to change you'd speak to her in a way where someone might

actually want to listen.

This may all seem way too touchy feely for you. I spend my time

teaching inmates in prison how to function in the world without anger

and violence. What I do is equip some of the most violent and rage

prone individuals in society with the skills and mindset deal with

conflict and their issues constructively.

When I'm not doing that I mediate court disputes. Including divorces.

I see lots of couples who don't know how to talk to each other because

of such buttons and notions.

We often ask them five simple questions:

1. What do you want?

2. What are you doing to get it?

3. How is that working for you?

4. Could you do something different to get it?

5. How would you see that working?

If you want a relationship with a woman in your life you might run

through those questions. I don't think the anger you express is

helping that come about.