Retrogrouch - what TRT regime are you currently on?

[Guest guest]

Retrogrouch - on reading our reply below it would seem you are really

happy with your TRT regime - what are you taking and for how long you

been on it?

I'm 30, have low T (300ng/dL) and symptoms bother me but read a lot

of conflicting advice re benefits of TRT versus the risks

particularly for relatively young guys like myself.

What's really worrying is that a lot of young guys on other posts

have stated TRT decreases erection quality (or at least did for them)

which goes against one of the main reasons for going on TRT in the

first place.

>

> >After 22 years of marriage and my begging (literally), hubby

consented

> >to get his hormones checked. At age 23 when we were dating, he

> >informed me we would not be having sex every day, so deal with

it. I

> >had already fallen in love with him and honestly thought it was a

> >temporary illness or something. I did not know there was such a

thing

> >as a guy not wanting sex every day! lol Stupid, I know. We did

not

> >consummate the honeymoon (but were already sexually active

otherwise)

> >and came home early, where he built furniture with the rest of his

> >time off!! lol Once a day would have been my minimum to make me

> >happy at that time. lol We only dated 7 months, so I wrote off his

> >lower drive to stress of engagement, an ulcer he had, new job,

etc.

> >

> >We had 2 children early on (he was 25 and 29) and then had 3

> >miscarriages. He had a vasectomy (1997 -his idea) to prevent more

> >miscarriages, had a complication of a sperm granuloma (very

painful)

> >and then had the vas reversed (1998). This never resulted in

> >functional sperm - they chased their tails and went in circles. He

> >had bilateral varioceles at this time and no one knows how long he

had

> >had them.

> >

> >In 2001 during infertility workups, his total T was 266 on a scale

of

> >280-850). Docs did not treat him with TRT as we were trying to

> >conceive. When that was unsuccessful (had to do ICSI -

intracellular

> >sperm injection - due to his sperm issues), any attempts to get

him to

> >go back to get treated were met with him insisting he was in the

> >normal ranges, so I could back off. (Testy subject, as you can

tell).

> > I also have fertility issues, so since 1998 we have had

unprotected

> >sex - no worry about conceiving. That has been nice.

> >

> >His drive has continued to plummet and he never had that " wow "

factor.

> >2 to 3 times a week was PLENTY for him, but it was more like once a

> >week. Increasingly, he has to really concentrate to enjoy.

> >Fortunately, no ED. But he had about a 1 week refractory period,

> >which was really stressing our marriage. (My drive had it's ups

and

> >downs, but 1 time a week was NOT working for me. I am 42.)

> >

> >He has very little muscle tone, gaining weight in his tummy,

> >exhausted, comes home from work and just watches tv all night,

often

> >falling asleep. Cranky, moody, not so much fun. Our boys are

almost

> >grown and I was looking forward to our child-free years, but he was

> >acting like he was ready for a retirement home. I was worried for

> >him. But if you asked him, he would tell you his life is perfect,

his

> >wife is perfect, his sex life is perfect. UGH!

> >

> >Went to see a urologist for the first time 3 weeks ago. Probably

> >because of the 2001 results, doctor diagnosed him with hypogonadism

> >and gave him a 400mg shot testosterone before leaving that day.

Blood

> >was drawn and results are: at age 46, his total T was 187 on a

scale

> >of 350 - 1050). Don't know if doc tested anything else - will find

out

> >next week.

> >

> >Within days of that shot, I was in absolute Heaven. I HONESTLY

> >thought I was having an affair. We were out of town staying in a

> >hotel (with the boys with family) and we had a sex fest. OMG. It

was

> >totally amazing. NEVER have we had intimacy like that. He was an

> >animal. I was literally crying - a dream come true for me. I cry

> >when I think about it!! I am a Stay at home mom and the plans I

have

> >for us at lunch during the week, at night, on weekends..........oh

my

> >goodness!!! I plan to not be able to walk!!!

> >

> >Outside of intimacy, he was so happy, so perky, not tired, well-

rested

> >in the morning, a bundle of energy.........simply amazing. I read

> >online that that is one heck of a huge shot and that biweekly or

> >weekly shots would be much better, but that was what we had at that

> >time. He was thanking me for having him get tested - he felt

wonderful.

> >

> >This week, he is back to being cranky, tired, very low drive. Sad

> >wife!! He goes next Tuesday for the follow-up to discuss those

> >results, at which time we will ask if we can do shots at home each

> >week. If not, definitely will go every 2 weeks. Doc definitely

> >prefers the shots, which from what I'm reading here, is a good

thing!

> > (I'm been reading for days, going back over all posts.)

> >

> >But my question is this: I had to effectively kill my sex drive to

> >survive in this marriage. He is a wonderful man otherwise, loving,

> >caring, my very best friend. Many feminine qualities, attached at

my

> >hip, I am his life. Just never needed much sex. We always joked

that

> >I was the guy in our relationship. He called me a freak of nature

> >many times. He was TRULY convinced he was 100% normal, since he

was

> >having all the sex HE wanted. 22 years of my begging,

crying.....got

> >me nowhere. Except a mad husband. Even after the 2001 results.

He

> >has told me he was afraid of the treatment and since he had enough

> >sex, he wasn't changing anything.

> >

> >We would literally work up plans where I would call him during the

day

> >to remind him to think about sex so he might want it that night.

HIS

> >idea!! He said he just had a really hard time remembering to think

> >about it. Or if he went out of town, he asked me to call and

remind

> >him to masturbate so we wouldn't lose any ground. (and he swore

> >nothing was wrong!)

> >

> >We almost divorced over this, I was tormented, it was really bad.

I

> >could not get him to understand that I wanted to be groped, I

wanted

> >to be thrown on the bed and desired. But I loved him so much in

all

> >other ways. His father and brother also very obviously have low T

and

> >father was just diagnosed with osteoporosis.

> >

> >Now that there is hope on the horizon and I just had that amazingly

> >fantastic sexual experience 2 weeks ago with him, I am allowing my

> >drive to wake back up. With it are unexpected emotions......lots

of

> >crying, sadness, anger, questions, mostly " Why why why didn't you

> >listen to me??? Why wasn't I " enough " that you would go and check

> >for ME? Why did it only matter HIS experience?

> >

> >This is not going over so well with him, as you can imagine. Of

> >course, he is mortified he let me down but still on the other side

> >doesn't seem to get it. I'm sure after a few more months of

> >Testosterone treatment when he truly realizes how intercourse was

> >supposed to feel all these years..... I truly do not think he ever

had

> >a " regular " drive, even in high school. Will be interesting to

see if

> >he has primary or secondary. (He had an MRI in 2003 for thyroid

> >issues and he did not have any pituitary tumors. He is hypothyroid

> >and has been on Armour Thyroid for over 10 years.) In 2001, his

FSH

> >was on the high end of the range, but don't know if that means it

was

> > " high " .

> >

> >I was just wondering if anyone has gone through this with a high

drive

> >wife who has a long history of sexual

> >frustration/rejection/disappointment to get over. Do you have any

> >advice for me?? I thought I would just get on the bandwagon, be

one

> >happy gal, and move forward. But instead, these awful feelings

have

> >surfaced, feelings I never really dealt with and as a result, here

> >they are again. He is fine to go back to the piddly sex life we

had

> >if TRT is going to upset me. ACK!!! How could he say that?? I

think

> >I will be fine.....it's only be a week.... I will die if he quits

the

> >shots. OMG.

> >

> >Just wondering if anyone understands.......has any advice......how

did

> >your wives handle it?????? I do not want to sabotage this and I'm

> >working really hard to " turn the page " but these emotions...I want

> >them gone. Should we get some therapy even though it will dredge

up

> >all of that that made him so mad? Would that help or hurt? I

have a

> >VERY high drive and I think he didn't know what to do with me 2

weeks

> >ago. I'm sure the hotel neighbors were like " What is going on in

> >there! lol " It was a total dream come true - a mix of the

wonderful

> >man he is and the animal in bed I've fantasized about. We have

such a

> >good marriage otherwise. I don't want to do anything to hurt that.

> >

> >Thanks so much,

> >

> >C.

>

> Hey C.

>

> Rapid change is not easy. Forget the past. You cannot change it.

What

> you want to think about is your future. Living in the past or

dwelling

> there wastes your present. (And it is a gift and hence the word is

> " present " .) (It reminds me of what the Indians say about " hate " .

> Hating is like taking poison and hoping your enemy will die. "

>

> My experience is different, but also intense. I was ill for ages and

> pretty useless. I had become a couch potato as T levels fell. I had

no

> ambition. I lost work and didn't do much to get new work. My wife

> supported us for way to long. (I'm talking years.) SHe thought I

was

> depressed. I said " no I'm happy. I'm content to sit on the couch or

in

> front of the computer all day " .

>

> When I got T, my experience was similar. I was bouncing off the

walls

> with energy and ambition. I couldn't sit still. My wife doesn't have

> your sex drive. (Wish she did.) When I got additional new drive I

was

> frustrated.

>

> She bore a lot of anger towards me for my " laziness " . She couldn't

> emotionally let go of the anger that took years to build up.

> Intellectually she knew it was the illness, and not a personal

failing

> on my part. But emotionally she had 2 or 3 years of thinking of me

as

> a lazy useless son of a bitch. That doesn't go away overnight.

>

> This was compounded by the fact that when I got healthy I felt I had

> set straight everything in my life. Now it was her turn. " I'm fixed.

> You're not! " I wanted everything to be perfect, and right away. It

> got so bad I actually told her to get therapy or I was leaving.

(Part

> of this was I couldn't stand the resentment that wasn't my " fault " .)

> She had the guts to say " I'll go if you go with me. "

>

> We had some things to work out. It took some time. But now 5 years

> down the line we're great and have been fro years.

>

> I'm curious how much T they're giving your husband and how long

> between shots. It looks like 400 mg every three weeks? That's stone

> age medicine. He will get super high doses for the first week and

fall

> back to nothing in the last week. He may even go lower than he was

> before. That makes for a roller coaster ride. For him - and for you.

>

> Most of do 100mg a week or so. It tends for most to even out the

highs

> and lows. Two weeks is too long in my opinion.

>

> Such large doses also increase estradiol - a form of estrogen

( " e2 " ).

> Excess T is converted to E2. High E2 causes impotence, falling t

> levels and it out competes T for many of the binding sites in the

body

> and hence steals the effect of the T.

>

> Hubby absolutely needs a more regular dosing, and an E2 test.

>

>

> Keep asking for help here. Be patient. Think of what you want in

your

> future, not what you wished for your past. The wake doesn't drive

the

> boat.

>

[Guest guest]

On Sat, 28 Feb 2009 16:39:13 -0000, you wrote:

>

>Retrogrouch - on reading our reply below it would seem you are really

>happy with your TRT regime - what are you taking and for how long you

>been on it?

>

>I'm 30, have low T (300ng/dL) and symptoms bother me but read a lot

>of conflicting advice re benefits of TRT versus the risks

>particularly for relatively young guys like myself.

>

>What's really worrying is that a lot of young guys on other posts

>have stated TRT decreases erection quality (or at least did for them)

>which goes against one of the main reasons for going on TRT in the

>first place.

Most of the erection issues come from conversion of T to E2

(estradiol). Anything above 40 is going to cause problems. Very few

doctors have enough education about this condition to know the basics.

Even " endocrinologists " only get at best a few pages on male hormones.

90% of their practice is diabetes, women's issues, and thyroid. Most

are working from 2 pages from 20 year old text books when they treat

us.

I'm fairly happy, after a few years of trying to get it right. But

I've changed endos and the new one is totally ignorant of E2 again and

refusing to prescribe arimidex, so I'm pulling up a pile of studies to

get her educated. I suspect with her ego it will make her pissy.

Fortunately I have half a year of arimidex now.

Even with lots of time and work I get surprises. I do 100mg every week

by injection, 1/2 a cc of 200mg enanthate. I take it in the thigh, as

I got knots from the glute shots.

Lately it seems even with this small dose I'm spiking and seeing 1200

to 1400 levels by day 2 or 3. Not good, as it dumps more to E2 and

also it messes with your lipid profile and I've got a coronary stent

already from lipid deposition. I'm gearing up for a battle with my

docs. I've got my primary and cardiologist saying I need to take

statins because my LDL is too high, meanwhile the endo is not

addressing my T levels and causing higher LDLs. Sometimes it seems it

never ends these doctor battles. I keep trying to find someone who is

willing to learn and willing to listen and engage and doesn't have to

play the omniscient god who can't learn anything new, and certainly

not from a patient.

They spent 1 hour on this in med school. I've lived it now for 7 years

and read 100s of hours of studies and data, and drawn on the guys here

who have decades dealing with it and have done their own research

also.

I am about to bundle up a list of studies and abstracts on the ill

effects of E2 and request they be attached to my medical record. It

will be an interesting experiment.

I am really wondering what it's going to take for us to get endos and

doctors up to speed on this. They are so amazingly defensive of their

ignorance.

[Guest guest]

Retrogrouch

Good to hear your experiences - your right the endo/GP's lack of

awareness/knowledge on this is a joke. I plan on writing many emails

to endo associations to get proper and up to date medical protocol

written on this. would be good if a whole load of sufferers did the

same to put pressure on these guys to get decent guidelines written

that medical profession can then use when administering TRT.

What age were you when our started on TRT? and where did you get your

arimidex from if not from endo? ...you could try DIM if no tried it

already.

Also wasnt sure what you meant when you said " I am about to bundle up

a list of studies and abstracts on the ill effects of E2 and request

they be attached to my medical record. It will be an interesting

experiment "

i.e. whats the point in doing that?

>

> >

> >Retrogrouch - on reading our reply below it would seem you are

really

> >happy with your TRT regime - what are you taking and for how long

you

> >been on it?

> >

> >I'm 30, have low T (300ng/dL) and symptoms bother me but read a

lot

> >of conflicting advice re benefits of TRT versus the risks

> >particularly for relatively young guys like myself.

> >

> >What's really worrying is that a lot of young guys on other posts

> >have stated TRT decreases erection quality (or at least did for

them)

> >which goes against one of the main reasons for going on TRT in the

> >first place.

>

> Most of the erection issues come from conversion of T to E2

> (estradiol). Anything above 40 is going to cause problems. Very few

> doctors have enough education about this condition to know the

basics.

> Even " endocrinologists " only get at best a few pages on male

hormones.

> 90% of their practice is diabetes, women's issues, and thyroid. Most

> are working from 2 pages from 20 year old text books when they treat

> us.

>

> I'm fairly happy, after a few years of trying to get it right. But

> I've changed endos and the new one is totally ignorant of E2 again

and

> refusing to prescribe arimidex, so I'm pulling up a pile of studies

to

> get her educated. I suspect with her ego it will make her pissy.

> Fortunately I have half a year of arimidex now.

>

> Even with lots of time and work I get surprises. I do 100mg every

week

> by injection, 1/2 a cc of 200mg enanthate. I take it in the thigh,

as

> I got knots from the glute shots.

>

> Lately it seems even with this small dose I'm spiking and seeing

1200

> to 1400 levels by day 2 or 3. Not good, as it dumps more to E2 and

> also it messes with your lipid profile and I've got a coronary stent

> already from lipid deposition. I'm gearing up for a battle with my

> docs. I've got my primary and cardiologist saying I need to take

> statins because my LDL is too high, meanwhile the endo is not

> addressing my T levels and causing higher LDLs. Sometimes it seems

it

> never ends these doctor battles. I keep trying to find someone who

is

> willing to learn and willing to listen and engage and doesn't have

to

> play the omniscient god who can't learn anything new, and certainly

> not from a patient.

>

> They spent 1 hour on this in med school. I've lived it now for 7

years

> and read 100s of hours of studies and data, and drawn on the guys

here

> who have decades dealing with it and have done their own research

> also.

>

> I am about to bundle up a list of studies and abstracts on the ill

> effects of E2 and request they be attached to my medical record. It

> will be an interesting experiment.

>

> I am really wondering what it's going to take for us to get endos

and

> doctors up to speed on this. They are so amazingly defensive of

their

> ignorance.

>

[Guest guest]

On Sat, 28 Feb 2009 23:35:27 -0000, you wrote:

>Retrogrouch

>

>Good to hear your experiences - your right the endo/GP's lack of

>awareness/knowledge on this is a joke. I plan on writing many emails

>to endo associations to get proper and up to date medical protocol

>written on this. would be good if a whole load of sufferers did the

>same to put pressure on these guys to get decent guidelines written

>that medical profession can then use when administering TRT.

I've been thinking of this too. They had the endocrinology association

meeting in my city recently and contacted the planners to ask if they

would want a patient panel to talk about these issues from a patient

perspective. Silence.

As I say, they want to protect their ignorance and God complex. Lowly

patients living with the condition have nothing to teach them.

>What age were you when our started on TRT? and where did you get your

>arimidex from if not from endo? ...you could try DIM if no tried it

>already.

I was about 46. I got arimidex from my first endo. I was starting on

gynecomastia and still had to twist his arm by bringing in a bunch of

studies showing men use it.

>

>Also wasnt sure what you meant when you said " I am about to bundle up

>a list of studies and abstracts on the ill effects of E2 and request

>they be attached to my medical record. It will be an interesting

>experiment "

>

>i.e. whats the point in doing that?

I'm at an HMO. My new endo won't even test for E2 won't discuss

arimidex. I figure putting the abstracts from 20 E2 in men studies and

articles on the efficacy of arimidex into my file will frankly box her

in. I intend to send a copy directly to her with a letter saying we

need to talk about this.

ly this woman's approach could be killing me. I'm dealing with

coronary artery disease and high T and high E2 make that far worse.

She's currently content to see me hit 1400 total T numbers each week

and as I say won't even test for E2.

I'm also considering forming a group like this in the HMO system for

patients with hypo-G. It will enlist an army of us to force them to

get educated and move into the 21st century.

I'm trying to find a less confrontational and more cooperative way to

accomplish this but these docs are sooooo fucking arrogant in their

ignorance they make it almost impossible.