Re: How long does it take to see increase in T levels after starting Androgel?

[Guest guest]

You're right- Androgel should raise one's T level quickly- within the

same day. What the PCP probably meant was it takes a while to fine

tune one's dosage to get the right levels to notice improvement.

After 7 weeks, your husband's natural production of T should have

stopped, such that whatever T is in his blood is due to Androgel

(assuming he's absorbing it). It's ironic that his total testosterone

happens to be at exactly the same level prior to the gel.

I don't use Androgel, so I can't comment on how much it would take to

get higher, though injections tend to produce higher increases in T.

Hopefully, his doc will take his request seriously to further increase

T (within the reference range). How does your husband feel at 550?

It might be a good idea to ask his doc about testing

Dihydrotestosterone (DHT), just to see where it needs to be for him to

feel good.

~Xian

>

> Hubby's t levels were around 550 and his PCP put him on 4 pumps/day of

> androgel. About 7 weeks later he had an appointment with an endo who

> tested t levels and they were still around 550. (I can't remember the

> exact numbers).

>

> Today he had an appointment with his PCP and asked about increasing the

> androgel dose since t levels hadn't changed. PCP said it can take up to

> 6 months to see a change in T levels......is this right? From what

> I've read, T levels change pretty quickly.

>

> Thanks for your help.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 03:16:46 -0000, you wrote:

>Hubby's t levels were around 550 and his PCP put him on 4 pumps/day of

>androgel. About 7 weeks later he had an appointment with an endo who

>tested t levels and they were still around 550. (I can't remember the

>exact numbers).

>

>Today he had an appointment with his PCP and asked about increasing the

>androgel dose since t levels hadn't changed. PCP said it can take up to

>6 months to see a change in T levels......is this right? From what

>I've read, T levels change pretty quickly.

>

>Thanks for your help.

>

>

Can you get us the numbers?

550 is a perfectly adequate total T level for natural production.

Especially given that T levels can vary by 200 points within an hour.

When you say these were his levels before Androgel, was he doing some

other for of T therapy?

I don't understand why he would be put on androgel with a 550 level.

If he was the Dr. does not understand T. You can supplement T. Your

body's feedback mechanisms will see the added levels and produce less.

T is a REPLACEMENT therapy. All of the T in the body will come from

the replacement source - the androgel. To mess with the feedback loop

(of hormones LH, FSH, and E2 ) without cause is to risk messing things

up long term.

Perhaps I misunderstood your post, but from what I think I see your

PCP is screwing this up.

Tell us more about your husbands numbers, test results and the PCP's

rationale.

[Guest guest]

>

> >Hubby's t levels were around 550 and his PCP put him on 4 pumps/day of

> >androgel. About 7 weeks later he had an appointment with an endo who

> >tested t levels and they were still around 550. (I can't remember the

> >exact numbers).

> >

> >Today he had an appointment with his PCP and asked about increasing

the

> >androgel dose since t levels hadn't changed. PCP said it can take

up to

> >6 months to see a change in T levels......is this right? From what

> >I've read, T levels change pretty quickly.

> >

> >Thanks for your help.

> >

> >

>

>

> Can you get us the numbers?

>

> 550 is a perfectly adequate total T level for natural production.

> Especially given that T levels can vary by 200 points within an hour.

> When you say these were his levels before Androgel, was he doing some

> other for of T therapy?

>

> I don't understand why he would be put on androgel with a 550 level.

> If he was the Dr. does not understand T. You can supplement T. Your

> body's feedback mechanisms will see the added levels and produce less.

> T is a REPLACEMENT therapy. All of the T in the body will come from

> the replacement source - the androgel. To mess with the feedback loop

> (of hormones LH, FSH, and E2 ) without cause is to risk messing things

> up long term.

>

> Perhaps I misunderstood your post, but from what I think I see your

> PCP is screwing this up.

>

> Tell us more about your husbands numbers, test results and the PCP's

> rationale.

>

I agree 100% with the comment above. Think of it this way, your

husband's body 'wants' his T level to be 550 (which is not at all

bad). If he adds exogenous (external sourced) testosterone, the body

will lower his natural production of T until it goes back to 550. The

only way for him to have more than a temporary spike in T level is to

replace his natural production entirely. Of course, then his

testicles will shut down and he should then be thinking about cycling

his usage of testosterone supplementation so that he doesn't shut down

permanently. But with a T level of 550 why do this? The comment about

the feedback loop above is right on. A better approach might be to do

things to lower his levels of estrogen (estradiol, to be more

specific) as this is the real determiner of T levels. His doc may (or

may not) be willing to do this with meds such as Arimidex or Clomid.

There is some good research on this. Anyway, this could increase his

T level moderately without having to replace the entirety of his T

production and messing with all kinds of other hormones. There are

even dietary things he can do to lower his estrogen level and various

supplements such as indole-3-carbinol or it's extract,

diindolylmethane (DIM). Science suggests that these things really

work and it's much preferable to testosterone gel for someone with a

natural level of 550. If you want him to be a little friskier on the

weekends, he can try horny goat weed.. better than viagra. If he is

motivated but things don't work the way they used to, then he can try

arginine ethyl esther. It must be the esther form though. Thx for

listening.

[Guest guest]

Retrogrouch and Houstonatknight,

Sorry I responded to the wrong thread.....

Thanks for your feedback. Finally found the file with previous lab

results...here goes.

May, 2005 (age 49)- Total Testosterone 925

November, 2008 (age 52) - Total Testosterone 561 (250-1100)

Free Testost - 84.6 (46-224)

Sex Hormone BG - 31 (18-47)

Testos Bioavail - 155.5 (110-575)

PCP prescribed 4 pumps androgel daily starting mid-December, 2008

January 23, 2009

Total Testosterone - 522 (250-1100)

Free Testost - 80.5 (35-155)

Sex Hormone BG - 31 (18-47)

Endocrinologist's comments: testosterone much improved, continue

current dose.

He has never had E2 checked, I didn't even know about this test until

reading recent posts on this. Why wouldn't doctors check this?

He went to PCP yesterday who said keep on the current dose even

though the levels dropped. He said it could take up to 6 months for

levels to increase which is not what I'm reading from all of you

guys. PCP originally put him on Androgel in Dec '08 to help with ED

and from what I read, that won't cure ED. I have very serious

reservations about whether the PCP really knows what he's doing.

Further complicating factors that may or may not affect T levels are

that hubby has cardiomyopathy (heart failure)and A-Fib (atrial

fibrilation) and is taking a slew of meds including beta blocker, ACE

inhibitor, digoxin, coumadin, antiarrhythmic, Crestor, mirapex

(restless leg syndrome), and Metformin (diabetes).

I'm really not feeling confident in his PCP and now I question the

endocrinologist as well. Any advice from you guys?

> >

> > >Hubby's t levels were around 550 and his PCP put him on 4

pumps/day of

> > >androgel. About 7 weeks later he had an appointment with an

endo who

> > >tested t levels and they were still around 550. (I can't

remember the

> > >exact numbers).

> > >

> > >Today he had an appointment with his PCP and asked about

increasing

> the

> > >androgel dose since t levels hadn't changed. PCP said it can take

> up to

> > >6 months to see a change in T levels......is this right? From

what

> > >I've read, T levels change pretty quickly.

> > >

> > >Thanks for your help.

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> > Can you get us the numbers?

> >

> > 550 is a perfectly adequate total T level for natural production.

> > Especially given that T levels can vary by 200 points within an

hour.

> > When you say these were his levels before Androgel, was he doing

some

> > other for of T therapy?

> >

> > I don't understand why he would be put on androgel with a 550

level.

> > If he was the Dr. does not understand T. You can supplement T.

Your

> > body's feedback mechanisms will see the added levels and produce

less.

> > T is a REPLACEMENT therapy. All of the T in the body will come

from

> > the replacement source - the androgel. To mess with the feedback

loop

> > (of hormones LH, FSH, and E2 ) without cause is to risk messing

things

> > up long term.

> >

> > Perhaps I misunderstood your post, but from what I think I see

your

> > PCP is screwing this up.

> >

> > Tell us more about your husbands numbers, test results and the

PCP's

> > rationale.

> >

> I agree 100% with the comment above. Think of it this way, your

> husband's body 'wants' his T level to be 550 (which is not at all

> bad). If he adds exogenous (external sourced) testosterone, the body

> will lower his natural production of T until it goes back to 550.

The

> only way for him to have more than a temporary spike in T level is

to

> replace his natural production entirely. Of course, then his

> testicles will shut down and he should then be thinking about

cycling

> his usage of testosterone supplementation so that he doesn't shut

down

> permanently. But with a T level of 550 why do this? The comment

about

> the feedback loop above is right on. A better approach might be to

do

> things to lower his levels of estrogen (estradiol, to be more

> specific) as this is the real determiner of T levels. His doc may

(or

> may not) be willing to do this with meds such as Arimidex or

Clomid.

> There is some good research on this. Anyway, this could increase

his

> T level moderately without having to replace the entirety of his T

> production and messing with all kinds of other hormones. There are

> even dietary things he can do to lower his estrogen level and

various

> supplements such as indole-3-carbinol or it's extract,

> diindolylmethane (DIM). Science suggests that these things really

> work and it's much preferable to testosterone gel for someone with a

> natural level of 550. If you want him to be a little friskier on the

> weekends, he can try horny goat weed.. better than viagra. If he is

> motivated but things don't work the way they used to, then he can

try

> arginine ethyl esther. It must be the esther form though. Thx for

> listening.

>

[Guest guest]

>

> >Retrogrouch and Houstonatknight,

> >

> >Sorry I responded to the wrong thread.....

> >

> >Thanks for your feedback. Finally found the file with previous lab

> >results...here goes.

> >

> >May, 2005 (age 49)- Total Testosterone 925

> >

> >November, 2008 (age 52) - Total Testosterone 561 (250-1100)

> >Free Testost - 84.6 (46-224)

> >Sex Hormone BG - 31 (18-47)

> >Testos Bioavail - 155.5 (110-575)

> >PCP prescribed 4 pumps androgel daily starting mid-December, 2008

> >

> >January 23, 2009

> >Total Testosterone - 522 (250-1100)

> >Free Testost - 80.5 (35-155)

> >Sex Hormone BG - 31 (18-47)

> >Endocrinologist's comments: testosterone much improved, continue

> >current dose.

> >

> >He has never had E2 checked, I didn't even know about this test until

> >reading recent posts on this. Why wouldn't doctors check this?

> >

> >He went to PCP yesterday who said keep on the current dose even

> >though the levels dropped. He said it could take up to 6 months for

> >levels to increase which is not what I'm reading from all of you

> >guys. PCP originally put him on Androgel in Dec '08 to help with ED

> >and from what I read, that won't cure ED. I have very serious

> >reservations about whether the PCP really knows what he's doing.

> >

> >Further complicating factors that may or may not affect T levels are

> >that hubby has cardiomyopathy (heart failure)and A-Fib (atrial

> >fibrilation) and is taking a slew of meds including beta blocker, ACE

> >inhibitor, digoxin, coumadin, antiarrhythmic, Crestor, mirapex

> >(restless leg syndrome), and Metformin (diabetes).

> >

> >I'm really not feeling confident in his PCP and now I question the

> >endocrinologist as well. Any advice from you guys?

>

> If T is above 500 there are no ED problems from that corner. It's far

> more likely high E2 is leading to ED. Much of anything above 40 ng/ml

> present problems. Ideal is probably 25 to 30.

>

>

> These doctors sound dangerous. It's utter nonsense that it takes

> months for levels to rise on androgel. And no one should be started on

> TRT when there natural levels are in the 500s.

>

> Get an e2 test and find someone else.

>

I agree.. I really don't think that testosterone is the problem. I

am also 52 and I wish I had natural T above 500. There are three

chemicals/hormones that are necessary in order for a person, male or

female, to both desire and successfully have sex. These are

Testosterone, Dopamine and Nitric Oxide. Again, Test is prob not the

culprit and his doctor certainly does seems uninformed to me. It is

possible that lowering E2 a bit could be beneficial for a couple of

reasons and that is a much more elegant solution than administering

testosterone in any form. The new ED drugs such as Levitra and Viagra

alter levels of Nitric Oxide, which enhances the flow of blood to the

genitals. I hope you and he know this but he cannot take these meds

(or Horny Goat Weed) because it can cause a sudden and very dangerous

drop in blood pressure if taken with certain heart meds, especially

beta blockers (tenormin). The only other way that I know of to

enhance the flow of blood to the genitals it with Arginine Ethyl Ester

(Arginine Pyroglutamate could work too). Regular arginine that you

buy at the pharmacy is worthless for this purpose. I take tenormin

too and I have no problems with arginine though I cannot take Viagra

or Horny Goat Weed (which works the same way as Viagra). As for

substances that enhance Dopamine (like Dostinex), I'm not even going

there because of his heart condition. Best avoided altogether. I

think that this all points to problems of circulation and blood supply

and not test levels (his free test level was good too). He has two

conditions (heart and diabetes) that can contribute to problems of

circulation and he is also taking meds that can cause ED, such as

tenormin. Before you do anything, please note that I am not a doctor

(not that they have all the answers). Try the Arginine Ethyl Ester..

I buy mine from Bodybuilding.com but there are other sources.. and

several brands. It helps me even though I take tenormin which

precludes me from taking Viagra. Your husband is lucky to have such a

caring wife. Last thing - it is VERY common for men to have erectile

problems after 50. I am very healthy.. not diabetic and am I not at

all content with my abilities in bed these days. It's just not the

same. When things don't work, I just try to find other ways to

express intimacy. Thanks for listening.

[Guest guest]

>

> >Retrogrouch and Houstonatknight,

> >

> >Sorry I responded to the wrong thread.....

> >

> >Thanks for your feedback. Finally found the file with previous lab

> >results...here goes.

> >

> >May, 2005 (age 49)- Total Testosterone 925

> >

> >November, 2008 (age 52) - Total Testosterone 561 (250-1100)

> >Free Testost - 84.6 (46-224)

> >Sex Hormone BG - 31 (18-47)

> >Testos Bioavail - 155.5 (110-575)

> >PCP prescribed 4 pumps androgel daily starting mid-December, 2008

> >

> >January 23, 2009

> >Total Testosterone - 522 (250-1100)

> >Free Testost - 80.5 (35-155)

> >Sex Hormone BG - 31 (18-47)

> >Endocrinologist's comments: testosterone much improved, continue

> >current dose.

> >

> >He has never had E2 checked, I didn't even know about this test until

> >reading recent posts on this. Why wouldn't doctors check this?

> >

> >He went to PCP yesterday who said keep on the current dose even

> >though the levels dropped. He said it could take up to 6 months for

> >levels to increase which is not what I'm reading from all of you

> >guys. PCP originally put him on Androgel in Dec '08 to help with ED

> >and from what I read, that won't cure ED. I have very serious

> >reservations about whether the PCP really knows what he's doing.

> >

> >Further complicating factors that may or may not affect T levels are

> >that hubby has cardiomyopathy (heart failure)and A-Fib (atrial

> >fibrilation) and is taking a slew of meds including beta blocker, ACE

> >inhibitor, digoxin, coumadin, antiarrhythmic, Crestor, mirapex

> >(restless leg syndrome), and Metformin (diabetes).

> >

> >I'm really not feeling confident in his PCP and now I question the

> >endocrinologist as well. Any advice from you guys?

>

> If T is above 500 there are no ED problems from that corner. It's far

> more likely high E2 is leading to ED. Much of anything above 40 ng/ml

> present problems. Ideal is probably 25 to 30.

>

>

> These doctors sound dangerous. It's utter nonsense that it takes

> months for levels to rise on androgel. And no one should be started on

> TRT when there natural levels are in the 500s.

>

> Get an e2 test and find someone else.

>

If it were me, I'd track down every single one of his medications

(using Google if you have to, but preferably the Physicians Desk

Reference - which you can find in the bigger libraries, usually

associated to universities) and read through the side effects,

especially the less common ones.

There's a chance that one of the medications he's taking for something

else is causing his ED... and as a result, no amount of TRT is ever

going to fix it.

One more thing to think about - he's over 50, so he's a big boy by

now. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but if he's SO not interested in his

own health so as to require you to write in this group for him,

perhaps there are other (psychological) reasons for his ED. Maybe, he

just can't be bothered...

JB

[Guest guest]

,

Wow maybe you are not a moderator, hmmm? Maybe you need to go to

jazzercise or go watch Oprah some more. See the title of this group?

Have you actually taken the time to read its description? There is a

reason why discussion groups have a scope.

I happen to agree with his statement. If he is over 50 and so

disinterested in his own well being then let Darwin take effect, one

less free ride. People use to stoke blast furnaces for 10-12 hours a

day and this guy can't get off his ass to run a google search or

participate in a group.

I have taken 3 years to digest over 30,000 pages and counting. I have

discharged over 15 doctors, requested labs, self diagnosed and engaged

the necessary therapies and have arrested my CPPD for over two years,

which was misdiagnosed by at least 3 doctors, chelated myself, tested

myself, validated the results and was relentless and then diagnosed

how hemochromatosis resulted in secondary hypogonadism, all by myself.

This is after coming back from 50% paralysis. I have had pain that

two hydrocodone 10-500's wouldn't dent, but I forced myself to find

the answer. I would sit with a foot the size of a football with pain

that made you want to off and a bicep rolled up onto my shoulder due

to the CPPD caused by hemochromatosis.

You adapt, persevere or perish. Then again you are the grandmaster,

although not moderator, of effective discourse and your brothers

keeper. Thanks for setting us all straight.

Tom U

>

> >

> >One more thing to think about - he's over 50, so he's a big boy by

> >now. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but if he's SO not interested in his

> >own health so as to require you to write in this group for him,

> >perhaps there are other (psychological) reasons for his ED. Maybe, he

> >just can't be bothered...

>

>

> Wow. I'm surprised at these kinds of posts of late. Anyone who's had

> very high or low E2 or low T should understand how screwed up hormones

> can rob you of the drive to take care of important things.

>

> He's lucky to have a caring spouse who will help get him to where he

> can then do it himself.

>

> I am always admiring of the women who come here. I fear some have been

> driving these brave caring women out of here of late.

>

> It'll be a poorer place if we lose the partners perspective here.

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks retrogrouch for sticking up for the women who are here trying to learn

about this problem in hopes of helping their hubbies or SO's. I don't get

easily offended in these message groups.

Hubby may be over 50 and a " big boy " , but he's also rather passive and just

takes everything the doctor's say as the gospel....and we all know that we have

to " manage " our own health care. I just happened to be the one in this family

who does the research and tries to keep the docs on their toes.

And, I also have a very vested interested in helping my husband stick around as

long as possible - we have two special needs (big-time behavioral problems)

children that we adopted (now ages 11 and 13) and I don't really want to be a

single parent. So if I have to overlook some misguided comments now and then,

so be it.

Have a great day everyone.

>

> >

> >One more thing to think about - he's over 50, so he's a big boy by

> >now. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but if he's SO not interested in his

> >own health so as to require you to write in this group for him,

> >perhaps there are other (psychological) reasons for his ED. Maybe, he

> >just can't be bothered...

>

>

> Wow. I'm surprised at these kinds of posts of late. Anyone who's had

> very high or low E2 or low T should understand how screwed up hormones

> can rob you of the drive to take care of important things.

>

> He's lucky to have a caring spouse who will help get him to where he

> can then do it himself.

>

> I am always admiring of the women who come here. I fear some have been

> driving these brave caring women out of here of late.

>

> It'll be a poorer place if we lose the partners perspective here.

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the laugh . Since you appreciate nature you can appreciate the

roles and order nature has provided for us. When that balance is discharged so

is the harmony that is intended. Women's greatest strength is their femininity

and men their masculinity as two sides of the same coin. What we get in the

workplace is women trying to emulate men and men not assuming responsibility.

While I am quick to anger, it is usually over righteous indignation such as

fighting corruption on your behalf, not as a job, but as a person with

conviction, with over $250 million returned to the treasury and I have no idea

how much in collective amounts saved which would be somewhere in the billions.

What you read and hear about in the news I engage daily, why? Conviction,

right, wrong, black, white, order, law, justice, and fighting like hell for

those who can't. You can blame Rosey the Riveter, but that only goes so far.

Balance requires order and for order to exists within the genders, which forms

families, communities and nations it requires the submission from the woman and

compassion and caring from the man. Since you are a family man I am sure you can

appreciate that you assume certain responsibilities and your wife hers.

It is deplorable and unacceptable to me to have a women come into a forum/group

scoped to hypogonadism with definition, bitch about not getting laid and then

describing how she feminizes the man in her life and belittles him. I have seen

this up close and personal on more than one occasion and nothing good ever

survives this imbalance.

Conversely, if she came from a place of femininity as a " helpmate " , and not a

condescending bitch, she would have all the compassion she could ever want from

me. There simply is right and wrong and if she wants the respect and compassion

then she needs to act like a lady instead of degrading and condescending. There

are plenty of other womens groups and forums for her to go rant.

>

> >,

> >

> >Wow maybe you are not a moderator, hmmm? Maybe you need to go to

> >jazzercise or go watch Oprah some more. See the title of this group?

> > Have you actually taken the time to read its description? There is a

> >reason why discussion groups have a scope.

> >

> >I happen to agree with his statement. If he is over 50 and so

> >disinterested in his own well being then let Darwin take effect, one

> >less free ride. People use to stoke blast furnaces for 10-12 hours a

> >day and this guy can't get off his ass to run a google search or

> >participate in a group.

> >

> >I have taken 3 years to digest over 30,000 pages and counting. I have

> >discharged over 15 doctors, requested labs, self diagnosed and engaged

> >the necessary therapies and have arrested my CPPD for over two years,

> >which was misdiagnosed by at least 3 doctors, chelated myself, tested

> >myself, validated the results and was relentless and then diagnosed

> >how hemochromatosis resulted in secondary hypogonadism, all by myself.

> >

> >This is after coming back from 50% paralysis. I have had pain that

> >two hydrocodone 10-500's wouldn't dent, but I forced myself to find

> >the answer. I would sit with a foot the size of a football with pain

> >that made you want to off and a bicep rolled up onto my shoulder due

> >to the CPPD caused by hemochromatosis.

> >

> >You adapt, persevere or perish. Then again you are the grandmaster,

> >although not moderator, of effective discourse and your brothers

> >keeper. Thanks for setting us all straight.

> >

> >Tom U

>

[Guest guest]

, Go ahead and spin and paint me as the heavy. As noticed her recent

second post on the matter better serves her husbands needs and comes from a

place of concern/compassion instead of condescending. Interesting that you make

reference to " as it is written " or " God's will. " In fact it is both and if the

God referencing lady would be presented with the question of submission to her

husband YOU may get a surprising answer. The other part of the equation is that

men are called to be kind and to be as Christ was the head of the church, for

which he died.

I have never witnessed a lasting relationship where a marriage or partnership

was truly equal. Equal in voice regarding joint decisions " maybe " , but one

usually carries the water more. Equality at best is a notion and a means to

flat line the efficiency of most processes or systems with the overtones of what

we are now realizing as the United Socialists States.

Your 5 step approach looks like maybe a hybrid from an AA meeting or if you are

going to quote Johari's Window try to be accurate. Further, and as mentioned,

and as consistently overlooked by you, I have a very compassionate, sharing and

caring relationship of 7 years and believe it or not she is strong minded, very

opinionated, fights for justice, is very intelligent, resourceful, but above all

respectful.

Go ask the God referencing women of her thoughts regarding submission to her

man, you may want to do it off board to avoid eating your words. This is my

last post concerning this matter. I am glad to see she has made corrections to

her previous condescending remarks she seems like she may of just been overly

frustrated.

However, most if not all of this rant is out of scope and not serving the

readership. This is my last post on this matter. I encourage you to join with

me in focusing on the problems that challenge the group members as defined

within the scope of hypogonadism. Thanks for your views and opinions. It is

good to know that we can agree to disagree and that the fabric of our " God "

given rights under " our " constitution preserves fundamental rights and freedom

of expression.

Tom U

>

> >

> >Thanks for the laugh . Since you appreciate nature you can appreciate

the roles and order nature has provided for us. When that balance is discharged

so is the harmony that is intended. Women's greatest strength is their

femininity and men their masculinity as two sides of the same coin. What we get

in the workplace is women trying to emulate men and men not assuming

responsibility.

>

> That's a nice excuse. You want she should be barefoot and pregnant and

> chained to the stove? That was the old " nature " argument. It's

> nature's " intent " is just an excuse to avoid examining issues in my

> book. It is up there with " it is written " or " it is god's will "

>

> >While I am quick to anger, it is usually over righteous indignation such as

fighting corruption on your behalf, not as a job, but as a person with

conviction, with over $250 million returned to the treasury and I have no idea

how much in collective amounts saved which would be somewhere in the billions.

> >

> >What you read and hear about in the news I engage daily, why? Conviction,

right, wrong, black, white, order, law, justice, and fighting like hell for

those who can't. You can blame Rosey the Riveter, but that only goes so far.

>

> You really value your anger. And good things can come from it. It

> seems you may enjoy the anger for the angers sake some.

>

> >Balance requires order and for order to exists within the genders, which

forms families, communities and nations it requires the submission from the

woman and compassion and caring from the man. Since you are a family man I am

sure you can appreciate that you assume certain responsibilities and your wife

hers.

>

> Submission? LOL. No equality for you, aye? How's that working out

> for you?

>

> >It is deplorable and unacceptable to me to have a women come into a

forum/group scoped to hypogonadism with definition, bitch about not getting laid

and then describing how she feminizes the man in her life and belittles him. I

have seen this up close and personal on more than one occasion and nothing good

ever survives this imbalance.

>

> Or perhaps your reaction to it?

>

>

> >Conversely, if she came from a place of femininity as a " helpmate " , and not a

condescending bitch, she would have all the compassion she could ever want from

me. There simply is right and wrong and if she wants the respect and compassion

then she needs to act like a lady instead of degrading and condescending. There

are plenty of other womens groups and forums for her to go rant.

>

> Sorry I think she pushed a big button for you. I suspect you are the

> only person who saw her as " condescending " and " bitching " . Most of us

> saw someone who married a seriously ill person and paid a big price

> for it waiting for him to get well. Most women frankly would have left

> him by now. SO I admire that she stuck with him out of love. Now he's

> well and she sees the change and she says simply she wish'd it

> happened sooner and she resents it took so long to get him to address

> it.

>

> Thing is the illness is so debilitating for many it robs you of the

> ability to go after the cure. Lots of us need some help to get that

> first T test and then push on to therapy. It's a function of the

> illness.

>

> IMHO Your issues with women led you dump on her and unload. DO you

> really think that approach is going to make her change a behavior? Or

> is it all about you getting to vent a " righteous rage " ? If you really

> wanted her to change you'd speak to her in a way where someone might

> actually want to listen.

>

> This may all seem way too touchy feely for you. I spend my time

> teaching inmates in prison how to function in the world without anger

> and violence. What I do is equip some of the most violent and rage

> prone individuals in society with the skills and mindset deal with

> conflict and their issues constructively.

>

> When I'm not doing that I mediate court disputes. Including divorces.

> I see lots of couples who don't know how to talk to each other because

> of such buttons and notions.

>

> We often ask them five simple questions:

> 1. What do you want?

> 2. What are you doing to get it?

> 3. How is that working for you?

> 4. Could you do something different to get it?

> 5. How would you see that working?

>

> If you want a relationship with a woman in your life you might run

> through those questions. I don't think the anger you express is

> helping that come about.

>