Re: Still trying to figure out my deal after so many years....Hypogonadism, TRT/HGC

[Guest guest]

Hi Derick,

Here is what we need your labs most of the men I talk to are on gels but not

enough. If your Total T levels are not up into the upper 1/3 of your labs range

your not going to be supported on TRT.

Most Dr.'s put men on 5 grams this for a small few is enough but for most me

it's not.

And the bad guy in E's is Estradiol don't test Estrogen, you can't find a test

for men they are for women. Men make E's from Testosterone women don't.

Do test your Estradiol doing a Quest Labs #4021 test if you can, the range is 13

to 54 if your higher then 30 best at 20 pg/ml you need something to get it down.

I don't know to many men on TRT that don't need to take Arimidex to keep there

Estradiol levels down. One good gage to tell if your Estradiol levels are to

high or even to low is by your night time and morning wood. If you don't have

them get tested.

When I was on Androgel 10 grams I had sore joints and muscles for some men a

small amount of them the gels don't support there joints and muscles. I was

house bound for yrs. on Androgel and did not know it was the gel doing this to

me.

I posted about this and Norton got back to me saying he had the same problems.

He switched to shots and the pain was gone. So I did this and the pain got

better after the first shot and in a short time my pain was gone.

I can go on for hrs better that you read my story at this link.

http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewtopic.php?f=5 & t=9239

And this link is you need to get your Estradiol this tells you how to take

Arimidex and not go down to low.

http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewtopic.php?f=5 & t=15041

So here is my take on your problems first if you did HCG at 1000 to 2000 IU's

for to long you can desensitize your testis to HCG and become Primary. Most of

the time when this happens if you stop using the HCG this will undo it's self

and you can go back on HCG but never do more then 500 IU's in a day.

If the top of your labs range is 1100 then you should be up between 700 to 800

to support your body with enough Testosterone.

So if your doing 5 grams or less a day of Androgel with lower then the above

levels go up on the dose.

Do HCG 250 to 500IU's every 3 days on gels and stop doing the HCG a week before

doing your labs or they will spike up your labs to untrue readings.

Your LH and FSH will not be very high on Gels your brain sees the testosterone

in your blood and slows down sending the LH and FSH messages to your Testis.

Your saying your LH and FSH was higher on just HCG this tells me the HCG you

were using was not mixed right or kept in the fridge and or not working. Going

on HCG your bain also sees this in your blood and to the brain it looks like LH

and FSH this is why it makes your Testis make there own Testosterone so your LH

and FSH on a test doing just HCG should be low. What was the brand name of your

HCG and did you mix it with bacteriostatic water.

In this link is how to mix HCG read post #10

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=238888

To get good labs on Gels doing HCG stop HCG a week before labs get up the

morning of your labs and do a good shower making sure you get all of the old gel

off your body. Don't put the gel on and go do your labs then when your done put

on the gels.

If you can't do this then put on the gel in the morning making sure you don't

get any on the spot they take the blood from. Do this after 4 to 6 hrs so your

labs are not spiked up high.

One more thing if you have a Thyroid Problem Gels or Creams don't get through

your skin and you can't get good levels test your Thyroid.

So do the following labs to rule this out also testing your Cortisol levels.

• Cortisol first do this test in blood a morning fasting test if your low

below 15 then do a 4x's in a day saliva test.

• Thyroid Panel doing the following labs.

* TSH But this lab is only for diagnosis of hypopituitary, NOT to diagnose or

dose your hypo by.

* Free T4 and Free T3 (note the word “freeâ€)

* Total T4 and T3

* Thyroid Antibodies (anti-TPO and TgAb. YOU NEED BOTH.)

* Ferritin (and do stress FERRITIN, not just RBC)

* Adrenals Cortisol levels (but we strongly recommend saliva tests, not the one

time blood test your doctor will do. See below, because you don’t need a

prescription)

* B-12 and DHEA

* Reverse T3

If your on 10 grams of gel with below your labs top 1/3 levels switch to shots

doing them every week and the HCG the 2 days each just before your next shot.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: derick_trent <derick_trent@...>

> Subject: Still trying to figure out my deal after so many

years....Hypogonadism, TRT/HGC

>

> Date: Saturday, October 10, 2009, 5:18 PM

> Not really sure where I probably fit

> in terms of the various sydromes and variants, but here's

> some data.

>

> Age 24 (before TRT):  6'0 " , 135 lbs., very low muscle

> mass, but not lean...tend to have fat on my middle, 34 "

> waist, Total Testosterone was 90, Prolactin was around 85,

> had an MRI but couldn't find anything wrong, small nuts

> (3/4 " ), voice never changed, not a single whisker, very thin

> wrists.

>

> Presently, at age 41, after TRT (shots at first, then

> scrotal patch, then Androgel, then HCG), my weight is 150

> lbs, still 6'0 " , same 34 waist, still very thin, small

> wrists, nuts never changed...still 3/4 " , voice changed of

> course, partial facial hair, larger than average penis size

> (I don't think I ever was small).  Prolactin has been

> normal since my late 20's, after taking Dostinex for several

> months.  I must've had a super tiny tumor on my

> pituitary, and the medication caused it to

> obliterate...awesome.

>

> I've never had semen analysis but I would be shocked if I

> was able to have kids. 

>

> Androgel seems to work the best out of everything. 

> Very stable and I'm able to put on a bit of muscle (not a

> lot, just enough to notice a difference) if I go to the gym

> 3-4 times per week.  I feel better and sex drive seems

> normal.

>

> I tried HCG about 500 IU 2x-3x a week for the past 2

> years.  My hope was to have my own body produce

> testosterone, instead of relying on Androgel, but whenever

> I'm on it exclusively, my body weight seems to drop and I

> don't have the energy I did when working out, despite the

> fact that my total testosterone tests normal while using

> it.  No idea why I feel better when using

> Androgel.  HCG also seems to make me blemish more on my

> face vs. Androgel.  Last time I was tested using just

> 500 units of HCG 2x per week, my testosterone level was a

> bit low.  I've tried higher amounts (1,000-2000 units

> 2x/wk) per my doctor's recommendation, but I get bad blemish

> issues and don't like to do it.  Then my doctor

> recommended I do 500 units of HCG and one pump of Androgel,

> 3x per week and that seems ok. 

>

> Anyway...I had hoped HCG would work better overall vs.

> Androgel, and that my testicle size would increase, but it

> hasn't. 

>

> When on Androgel exclusively, my FSH and LH always failed

> to show up on labwork.  Estrogen always remained normal

> while on Androgel exclusively, which surprised me as I

> expected it would increase.

>

> When I switched to using HCG exclusively (500mg 3x per

> week...no Androgel), I was surprised to see I had a normal

> FSH and LH level, and my estrogen was still totally normal,

> but was higher than it had been in the past.  I had

> begun to think I wasn't capable of producing FSH/LH when I

> used Androgel.

>

> I thought my testicle size would increase while taking HCG

> and having normal FSH/LH, but it hasn't at all.  I

> realized my sex drive was down too versus when I used

> Androgel.  Again, I've been using HCG for about 2

> years.  I think I might be done using it and will go to

> Androgel full time.

>

> Any thoughts as to why I can't increase my testicle

> size?  Or what I might try to do so? 

>

> If it ends up I can't, so be it....but still, it would be

> nice to have what other guys have, but it's not the end of

> the world. 

>

> And no idea why I'd feel weaker and have less stamina while

> using HCG than when using only Androgel.  Maybe I've

> just not been able to get the mix right..../sigh.

>

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

What one needs to do is look at point space and events in life around what time

did this occur. When properly evaluated it can be linked back to potential

point in life where there was extreme stress (emotional, phyically , mentally,

biological, livestyle change,ect) To many medical professional tend to treat the

symptoms vs the cause of the issue. Some times with patients there needs to be

some type of counseling if there is still emotional trama that still may be

attached. Some time the emotional trama may be in the subconscious mind vs the

conscious mind.

>

> Not really sure where I probably fit in terms of the various sydromes and

variants, but here's some data.

>

> Age 24 (before TRT): 6'0 " , 135 lbs., very low muscle mass, but not

lean...tend to have fat on my middle, 34 " waist, Total Testosterone was 90,

Prolactin was around 85, had an MRI but couldn't find anything wrong, small nuts

(3/4 " ), voice never changed, not a single whisker, very thin wrists.

>

> Presently, at age 41, after TRT (shots at first, then scrotal patch, then

Androgel, then HCG), my weight is 150 lbs, still 6'0 " , same 34 waist, still very

thin, small wrists, nuts never changed...still 3/4 " , voice changed of course,

partial facial hair, larger than average penis size (I don't think I ever was

small). Prolactin has been normal since my late 20's, after taking Dostinex for

several months. I must've had a super tiny tumor on my pituitary, and the

medication caused it to obliterate...awesome.

>

> I've never had semen analysis but I would be shocked if I was able to have

kids.

>

> Androgel seems to work the best out of everything. Very stable and I'm able

to put on a bit of muscle (not a lot, just enough to notice a difference) if I

go to the gym 3-4 times per week. I feel better and sex drive seems normal.

>

> I tried HCG about 500 IU 2x-3x a week for the past 2 years. My hope was to

have my own body produce testosterone, instead of relying on Androgel, but

whenever I'm on it exclusively, my body weight seems to drop and I don't have

the energy I did when working out, despite the fact that my total testosterone

tests normal while using it. No idea why I feel better when using Androgel.

HCG also seems to make me blemish more on my face vs. Androgel. Last time I was

tested using just 500 units of HCG 2x per week, my testosterone level was a bit

low. I've tried higher amounts (1,000-2000 units 2x/wk) per my doctor's

recommendation, but I get bad blemish issues and don't like to do it. Then my

doctor recommended I do 500 units of HCG and one pump of Androgel, 3x per week

and that seems ok.

>

> Anyway...I had hoped HCG would work better overall vs. Androgel, and that my

testicle size would increase, but it hasn't.

>

> When on Androgel exclusively, my FSH and LH always failed to show up on

labwork. Estrogen always remained normal while on Androgel exclusively, which

surprised me as I expected it would increase.

>

> When I switched to using HCG exclusively (500mg 3x per week...no Androgel), I

was surprised to see I had a normal FSH and LH level, and my estrogen was still

totally normal, but was higher than it had been in the past. I had begun to

think I wasn't capable of producing FSH/LH when I used Androgel.

>

> I thought my testicle size would increase while taking HCG and having normal

FSH/LH, but it hasn't at all. I realized my sex drive was down too versus when

I used Androgel. Again, I've been using HCG for about 2 years. I think I might

be done using it and will go to Androgel full time.

>

> Any thoughts as to why I can't increase my testicle size? Or what I might try

to do so?

>

> If it ends up I can't, so be it....but still, it would be nice to have what

other guys have, but it's not the end of the world.

>

> And no idea why I'd feel weaker and have less stamina while using HCG than

when using only Androgel. Maybe I've just not been able to get the mix

right..../sigh.

>

[Guest guest]

Research Klinefelters Syndrome.

>

> Not really sure where I probably fit in terms of the various sydromes and

variants, but here's some data.

>

> Age 24 (before TRT): 6'0 " , 135 lbs., very low muscle mass, but not

lean...tend to have fat on my middle, 34 " waist, Total Testosterone was 90,

Prolactin was around 85, had an MRI but couldn't find anything wrong, small nuts

(3/4 " ), voice never changed, not a single whisker, very thin wrists.

>

> Presently, at age 41, after TRT (shots at first, then scrotal patch, then

Androgel, then HCG), my weight is 150 lbs, still 6'0 " , same 34 waist, still very

thin, small wrists, nuts never changed...still 3/4 " , voice changed of course,

partial facial hair, larger than average penis size (I don't think I ever was

small). Prolactin has been normal since my late 20's, after taking Dostinex for

several months. I must've had a super tiny tumor on my pituitary, and the

medication caused it to obliterate...awesome.

>

> I've never had semen analysis but I would be shocked if I was able to have

kids.

>

> Androgel seems to work the best out of everything. Very stable and I'm able

to put on a bit of muscle (not a lot, just enough to notice a difference) if I

go to the gym 3-4 times per week. I feel better and sex drive seems normal.

>

> I tried HCG about 500 IU 2x-3x a week for the past 2 years. My hope was to

have my own body produce testosterone, instead of relying on Androgel, but

whenever I'm on it exclusively, my body weight seems to drop and I don't have

the energy I did when working out, despite the fact that my total testosterone

tests normal while using it. No idea why I feel better when using Androgel.

HCG also seems to make me blemish more on my face vs. Androgel. Last time I was

tested using just 500 units of HCG 2x per week, my testosterone level was a bit

low. I've tried higher amounts (1,000-2000 units 2x/wk) per my doctor's

recommendation, but I get bad blemish issues and don't like to do it. Then my

doctor recommended I do 500 units of HCG and one pump of Androgel, 3x per week

and that seems ok.

>

> Anyway...I had hoped HCG would work better overall vs. Androgel, and that my

testicle size would increase, but it hasn't.

>

> When on Androgel exclusively, my FSH and LH always failed to show up on

labwork. Estrogen always remained normal while on Androgel exclusively, which

surprised me as I expected it would increase.

>

> When I switched to using HCG exclusively (500mg 3x per week...no Androgel), I

was surprised to see I had a normal FSH and LH level, and my estrogen was still

totally normal, but was higher than it had been in the past. I had begun to

think I wasn't capable of producing FSH/LH when I used Androgel.

>

> I thought my testicle size would increase while taking HCG and having normal

FSH/LH, but it hasn't at all. I realized my sex drive was down too versus when

I used Androgel. Again, I've been using HCG for about 2 years. I think I might

be done using it and will go to Androgel full time.

>

> Any thoughts as to why I can't increase my testicle size? Or what I might try

to do so?

>

> If it ends up I can't, so be it....but still, it would be nice to have what

other guys have, but it's not the end of the world.

>

> And no idea why I'd feel weaker and have less stamina while using HCG than

when using only Androgel. Maybe I've just not been able to get the mix

right..../sigh.

>

[Guest guest]

I had looked Klinefelter's syndrome up before, and it mentions the individual

would have low testosterone and elevated LH and FSH levels, and likely elevated

estrogen. 

 

My tests never showed elevations in these areas.  But, I seem to have some of

the other symptoms mentioned (short torso, long arms, taller, wide hips, etc.). 

And I've read several sites that mention " micro penis " , but I don't think that's

requisite in all cases, and I definitely don't have a micro penis, lol....at

least that's one thing I didn't get ripped off on!

 

From reading, it seems not everyone has the same symptoms, so I guess it's

possible I may have the extra " X " chromosome.  I'll ask my doctor to test for it

as I'm due for a blood test soon.

From: gin2c <no_reply >

Subject: Re: Still trying to figure out my deal after so many

years....Hypogonadism, TRT/HGC

Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 5:24 AM

 

Research Klinefelters Syndrome.

>

> Not really sure where I probably fit in terms of the various sydromes and

variants, but here's some data.

>

> Age 24 (before TRT): 6'0 " , 135 lbs., very low muscle mass, but not lean...tend

to have fat on my middle, 34 " waist, Total Testosterone was 90, Prolactin was

around 85, had an MRI but couldn't find anything wrong, small nuts (3/4 " ), voice

never changed, not a single whisker, very thin wrists.

>

> Presently, at age 41, after TRT (shots at first, then scrotal patch, then

Androgel, then HCG), my weight is 150 lbs, still 6'0 " , same 34 waist, still very

thin, small wrists, nuts never changed...still 3/4 " , voice changed of course,

partial facial hair, larger than average penis size (I don't think I ever was

small). Prolactin has been normal since my late 20's, after taking Dostinex for

several months. I must've had a super tiny tumor on my pituitary, and the

medication caused it to obliterate.. .awesome.

>

> I've never had semen analysis but I would be shocked if I was able to have

kids.

>

> Androgel seems to work the best out of everything. Very stable and I'm able to

put on a bit of muscle (not a lot, just enough to notice a difference) if I go

to the gym 3-4 times per week. I feel better and sex drive seems normal.

>

> I tried HCG about 500 IU 2x-3x a week for the past 2 years. My hope was to

have my own body produce testosterone, instead of relying on Androgel, but

whenever I'm on it exclusively, my body weight seems to drop and I don't have

the energy I did when working out, despite the fact that my total testosterone

tests normal while using it. No idea why I feel better when using Androgel. HCG

also seems to make me blemish more on my face vs. Androgel. Last time I was

tested using just 500 units of HCG 2x per week, my testosterone level was a bit

low. I've tried higher amounts (1,000-2000 units 2x/wk) per my doctor's

recommendation, but I get bad blemish issues and don't like to do it. Then my

doctor recommended I do 500 units of HCG and one pump of Androgel, 3x per week

and that seems ok.

>

> Anyway...I had hoped HCG would work better overall vs. Androgel, and that my

testicle size would increase, but it hasn't.

>

> When on Androgel exclusively, my FSH and LH always failed to show up on

labwork. Estrogen always remained normal while on Androgel exclusively, which

surprised me as I expected it would increase.

>

> When I switched to using HCG exclusively (500mg 3x per week...no Androgel), I

was surprised to see I had a normal FSH and LH level, and my estrogen was still

totally normal, but was higher than it had been in the past. I had begun to

think I wasn't capable of producing FSH/LH when I used Androgel.

>

> I thought my testicle size would increase while taking HCG and having normal

FSH/LH, but it hasn't at all. I realized my sex drive was down too versus when I

used Androgel. Again, I've been using HCG for about 2 years. I think I might be

done using it and will go to Androgel full time.

>

> Any thoughts as to why I can't increase my testicle size? Or what I might try

to do so?

>

> If it ends up I can't, so be it....but still, it would be nice to have what

other guys have, but it's not the end of the world.

>

> And no idea why I'd feel weaker and have less stamina while using HCG than

when using only Androgel. Maybe I've just not been able to get the mix

right..../sigh.

>

[Guest guest]

Wow, Phil.  I read your ordeal.....what an ordeal!  So much lack of

understanding from not digging down deep enough on issues that shouldn't be that

mysterious.

 

I remember the first doctor I went to when I was 24, and told him something had

to be wrong with me as I wasn't developed normally.  No joke, he took a look at

the fact I had armpit hair and some pubic hair, and said my testosterone levels

were fine.  He ignored the fact that my voice hadn't changed (really), that I

was skinny as a stick, and had no arm/leg hair development, or a single whisker

on my face, and looked like I was a kid.  It was only due to the fact that I

was really persistent, did he agree to get my blood tested.  Surprise....total

testosterone was 90.

 

Phil, you gave me a *ton* of information, and I don't quite understand it all,

but I've been working on it.  Have no idea what role Cortisol or DHEA

play....but will read further.

 

Prior to taking HCG, I had been on 3 packs of Androgel a day (the lower strength

packet).  I do know when I had my blood tested while using Androgel and HCG,

the total T level would be somewhere around 1100-1600.  My doctor cut

everything down.  I'll try your suggestion of stopping the HCG a week prior to

testing. 

 

Right now, my doctor suggests I use 500 units of HCT 3x per week, and 1 squirt

of an Androgel pump each day.

 

I've noticed the day I use HCG, it makes the skin of my face very oily and I

tend to get a lot of small pimples, especially if I use Androgel too on the same

day.  So, on the days I inject HCG, I lay off the Androgel, and us it the

second and third day. 

 

I figure if I'm getting pimples, my T level must be high, no?

> From: derick_trent <derick_trent>

> Subject: Still trying to figure out my deal after so many

years....Hypogonadi sm, TRT/HGC

>

> Date: Saturday, October 10, 2009, 5:18 PM

> Not really sure where I probably fit

> in terms of the various sydromes and variants, but here's

> some data.

>

> Age 24 (before TRT):  6'0 " , 135 lbs., very low muscle

> mass, but not lean...tend to have fat on my middle, 34 "

> waist, Total Testosterone was 90, Prolactin was around 85,

> had an MRI but couldn't find anything wrong, small nuts

> (3/4 " ), voice never changed, not a single whisker, very thin

> wrists.

>

> Presently, at age 41, after TRT (shots at first, then

> scrotal patch, then Androgel, then HCG), my weight is 150

> lbs, still 6'0 " , same 34 waist, still very thin, small

> wrists, nuts never changed...still 3/4 " , voice changed of

> course, partial facial hair, larger than average penis size

> (I don't think I ever was small).  Prolactin has been

> normal since my late 20's, after taking Dostinex for several

> months.  I must've had a super tiny tumor on my

> pituitary, and the medication caused it to

> obliterate.. .awesome.

>

> I've never had semen analysis but I would be shocked if I

> was able to have kids. 

>

> Androgel seems to work the best out of everything. 

> Very stable and I'm able to put on a bit of muscle (not a

> lot, just enough to notice a difference) if I go to the gym

> 3-4 times per week.  I feel better and sex drive seems

> normal.

>

> I tried HCG about 500 IU 2x-3x a week for the past 2

> years.  My hope was to have my own body produce

> testosterone, instead of relying on Androgel, but whenever

> I'm on it exclusively, my body weight seems to drop and I

> don't have the energy I did when working out, despite the

> fact that my total testosterone tests normal while using

> it.  No idea why I feel better when using

> Androgel.  HCG also seems to make me blemish more on my

> face vs. Androgel.  Last time I was tested using just

> 500 units of HCG 2x per week, my testosterone level was a

> bit low.  I've tried higher amounts (1,000-2000 units

> 2x/wk) per my doctor's recommendation, but I get bad blemish

> issues and don't like to do it.  Then my doctor

> recommended I do 500 units of HCG and one pump of Androgel,

> 3x per week and that seems ok. 

>

> Anyway...I had hoped HCG would work better overall vs.

> Androgel, and that my testicle size would increase, but it

> hasn't. 

>

> When on Androgel exclusively, my FSH and LH always failed

> to show up on labwork.  Estrogen always remained normal

> while on Androgel exclusively, which surprised me as I

> expected it would increase.

>

> When I switched to using HCG exclusively (500mg 3x per

> week...no Androgel), I was surprised to see I had a normal

> FSH and LH level, and my estrogen was still totally normal,

> but was higher than it had been in the past.  I had

> begun to think I wasn't capable of producing FSH/LH when I

> used Androgel.

>

> I thought my testicle size would increase while taking HCG

> and having normal FSH/LH, but it hasn't at all.  I

> realized my sex drive was down too versus when I used

> Androgel.  Again, I've been using HCG for about 2

> years.  I think I might be done using it and will go to

> Androgel full time.

>

> Any thoughts as to why I can't increase my testicle

> size?  Or what I might try to do so? 

>

> If it ends up I can't, so be it....but still, it would be

> nice to have what other guys have, but it's not the end of

> the world. 

>

> And no idea why I'd feel weaker and have less stamina while

> using HCG than when using only Androgel.  Maybe I've

> just not been able to get the mix right..../sigh.

>

>

>

>

>

> ------------ --------- --------- ------

>

>

[Guest guest]

I was doing shots 150 mgs of Depo Testosterone my levels of Total T were only

600 the lab at the time had a top of the range at 1593 ng/dL. We added HCG 500

IU's 3x's a week on top of my shots and my levels shot up to 1200 this is how I

figured out I am Secondary and have a Pituitary problem.

Today I don't remember If I told you I do 80 mgs of Depo T every 3 days and I do

400 IU's of HCG the 2 days each in between my T shots. I find doing this keeps

me more leveled off and holds down my Estradiol levels. So I don't need to take

so much Arimidex to keep my Estradiol in check.

I have very oily skin from TRT and use baby wipes on my face 3 to 5 times a day

or the dam oil gets into my eyes. It even stains my pillow my wife bitch's

about this every time she washes the bedding. I don't get pimples but I get

bumps most of them on the top of my head they are like hives I will get them on

my neck too. I only get maybe one to three in a given time still it's a pain is

the ass.

What your doing with the gel is useless a very low dose I feel the only thing

keeping you going is the HCG. It is tricky to find the right dose if your doing

to much it turns into Estradiol and I feel it's this that make my face oily and

gives me the bumps that are like hives. After I do a shot of HCG I can feel my

Estradiol levels go up if I am not on the right dose of Arimidex.

To find your dose of HCG after labs cut back on the amount do down from 500 IU's

to 400 hold this then do labs in 6 to 8 weeks if your levels did not fall then

cut down to 300 it was when I went down to 300 IU's my levels fell 250 points.

So I went up to 350 IU's and tested in 6 to 8 weeks my levels came up 100 Points

so I settled on 400 IU's this and the Depo T shot keeps me at about 750 to 850

using Quest Labs top of range is 1100.

I feel you would be better off on shots you can control your dose much easier

and with HCG it works great. I never did good on gels for some reason the

testosterone in gels did not support my joints and muscles.

Co-Moderator

Phil

>

> > From: derick_trent <derick_trent>

> > Subject: Still trying to figure out my

> deal after so many years....Hypogonadi sm, TRT/HGC

> >

> > Date: Saturday, October 10, 2009, 5:18 PM

> > Not really sure where I probably fit

> > in terms of the various sydromes and variants, but

> here's

> > some data.

> >

> > Age 24 (before TRT):  6'0 " , 135 lbs., very low

> muscle

> > mass, but not lean...tend to have fat on my middle,

> 34 "

> > waist, Total Testosterone was 90, Prolactin was around

> 85,

> > had an MRI but couldn't find anything wrong, small

> nuts

> > (3/4 " ), voice never changed, not a single whisker,

> very thin

> > wrists.

> >

> > Presently, at age 41, after TRT (shots at first, then

> > scrotal patch, then Androgel, then HCG), my weight is

> 150

> > lbs, still 6'0 " , same 34 waist, still very thin,

> small

> > wrists, nuts never changed...still 3/4 " , voice changed

> of

> > course, partial facial hair, larger than average penis

> size

> > (I don't think I ever was small).  Prolactin has

> been

> > normal since my late 20's, after taking Dostinex for

> several

> > months.  I must've had a super tiny tumor on my

> > pituitary, and the medication caused it to

> > obliterate.. .awesome.

> >

> > I've never had semen analysis but I would be shocked

> if I

> > was able to have kids. 

> >

> > Androgel seems to work the best out of everything. 

> > Very stable and I'm able to put on a bit of muscle

> (not a

> > lot, just enough to notice a difference) if I go to

> the gym

> > 3-4 times per week.  I feel better and sex drive

> seems

> > normal.

> >

> > I tried HCG about 500 IU 2x-3x a week for the past 2

> > years.  My hope was to have my own body produce

> > testosterone, instead of relying on Androgel, but

> whenever

> > I'm on it exclusively, my body weight seems to drop

> and I

> > don't have the energy I did when working out, despite

> the

> > fact that my total testosterone tests normal while

> using

> > it.  No idea why I feel better when using

> > Androgel.  HCG also seems to make me blemish more on

> my

> > face vs. Androgel.  Last time I was tested using

> just

> > 500 units of HCG 2x per week, my testosterone level

> was a

> > bit low.  I've tried higher amounts (1,000-2000

> units

> > 2x/wk) per my doctor's recommendation, but I get bad

> blemish

> > issues and don't like to do it.  Then my doctor

> > recommended I do 500 units of HCG and one pump of

> Androgel,

> > 3x per week and that seems ok. 

> >

> > Anyway...I had hoped HCG would work better overall

> vs.

> > Androgel, and that my testicle size would increase,

> but it

> > hasn't. 

> >

> > When on Androgel exclusively, my FSH and LH always

> failed

> > to show up on labwork.  Estrogen always remained

> normal

> > while on Androgel exclusively, which surprised me as

> I

> > expected it would increase.

> >

> > When I switched to using HCG exclusively (500mg 3x

> per

> > week...no Androgel), I was surprised to see I had a

> normal

> > FSH and LH level, and my estrogen was still totally

> normal,

> > but was higher than it had been in the past.  I had

> > begun to think I wasn't capable of producing FSH/LH

> when I

> > used Androgel.

> >

> > I thought my testicle size would increase while taking

> HCG

> > and having normal FSH/LH, but it hasn't at all.  I

> > realized my sex drive was down too versus when I used

> > Androgel.  Again, I've been using HCG for about 2

> > years.  I think I might be done using it and will go

> to

> > Androgel full time.

> >

> > Any thoughts as to why I can't increase my testicle

> > size?  Or what I might try to do so? 

> >

> > If it ends up I can't, so be it....but still, it would

> be

> > nice to have what other guys have, but it's not the

> end of

> > the world. 

> >

> > And no idea why I'd feel weaker and have less stamina

> while

> > using HCG than when using only Androgel.  Maybe I've

> > just not been able to get the mix right..../sigh.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------ --------- --------- ------

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Derick

your right to get tested for this because so many people think its a simple case

of having the symtpoms you listed below. I've read that klinefelters can just as

easily have normal TT and normal LH & FSH particularly mosaic klinefelters.

I'm going to ask for this test also at some point because I reckon I've been

primary all my life and hence my balls are smaller than average. I'm thin with

relatively small torso compared to legs and have low e2 by the way (not wide

hips and high e2). You will need get 20 or more cells analysed for chromosome

make-up just to be sure because mosaic klinefelters may not be picked up

otherwise.

Personally from what I've read on it small testicles (and unfortunately

associated fertility problems) are the red flag for it or at very least some

other problem which has the same effects on the body.

Let us all know how the testing was carried out and how you got on.

> >

> > Not really sure where I probably fit in terms of the various sydromes and

variants, but here's some data.

> >

> > Age 24 (before TRT): 6'0 " , 135 lbs., very low muscle mass, but not

lean...tend to have fat on my middle, 34 " waist, Total Testosterone was 90,

Prolactin was around 85, had an MRI but couldn't find anything wrong, small nuts

(3/4 " ), voice never changed, not a single whisker, very thin wrists.

> >

> > Presently, at age 41, after TRT (shots at first, then scrotal patch, then

Androgel, then HCG), my weight is 150 lbs, still 6'0 " , same 34 waist, still very

thin, small wrists, nuts never changed...still 3/4 " , voice changed of course,

partial facial hair, larger than average penis size (I don't think I ever was

small). Prolactin has been normal since my late 20's, after taking Dostinex for

several months. I must've had a super tiny tumor on my pituitary, and the

medication caused it to obliterate.. .awesome.

> >

> > I've never had semen analysis but I would be shocked if I was able to have

kids.

> >

> > Androgel seems to work the best out of everything. Very stable and I'm able

to put on a bit of muscle (not a lot, just enough to notice a difference) if I

go to the gym 3-4 times per week. I feel better and sex drive seems normal.

> >

> > I tried HCG about 500 IU 2x-3x a week for the past 2 years. My hope was to

have my own body produce testosterone, instead of relying on Androgel, but

whenever I'm on it exclusively, my body weight seems to drop and I don't have

the energy I did when working out, despite the fact that my total testosterone

tests normal while using it. No idea why I feel better when using Androgel. HCG

also seems to make me blemish more on my face vs. Androgel. Last time I was

tested using just 500 units of HCG 2x per week, my testosterone level was a bit

low. I've tried higher amounts (1,000-2000 units 2x/wk) per my doctor's

recommendation, but I get bad blemish issues and don't like to do it. Then my

doctor recommended I do 500 units of HCG and one pump of Androgel, 3x per week

and that seems ok.

> >

> > Anyway...I had hoped HCG would work better overall vs. Androgel, and that my

testicle size would increase, but it hasn't.

> >

> > When on Androgel exclusively, my FSH and LH always failed to show up on

labwork. Estrogen always remained normal while on Androgel exclusively, which

surprised me as I expected it would increase.

> >

> > When I switched to using HCG exclusively (500mg 3x per week...no Androgel),

I was surprised to see I had a normal FSH and LH level, and my estrogen was

still totally normal, but was higher than it had been in the past. I had begun

to think I wasn't capable of producing FSH/LH when I used Androgel.

> >

> > I thought my testicle size would increase while taking HCG and having normal

FSH/LH, but it hasn't at all. I realized my sex drive was down too versus when I

used Androgel. Again, I've been using HCG for about 2 years. I think I might be

done using it and will go to Androgel full time.

> >

> > Any thoughts as to why I can't increase my testicle size? Or what I might

try to do so?

> >

> > If it ends up I can't, so be it....but still, it would be nice to have what

other guys have, but it's not the end of the world.

> >

> > And no idea why I'd feel weaker and have less stamina while using HCG than

when using only Androgel. Maybe I've just not been able to get the mix

right..../sigh.

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

 

 

Here are my most recent labs (6/09) when taking about 500 units of HCG 3x per

week and less than 1 packet of Androgel (lower strength, not the higher one)

over 3 days:

 

Total Testosterone:  629 (reference range 250-1100)

% Free Testosterone:  1.86 (reference range 1.5-2.2)

Free Testosterone:  116.9 (reference range (35-155 pg/mL)

FSH:  5.0 (1.6-8.0 mIU/mL reference)

LH:  2.0 (1.5-9.3 mIU/mLreference)

Estradiol:  28 (reference 13-54 pg/mL)

 

I did not go without HCG for a week prior to the blood being collected.

 

I did a bunch of online research over the weekend and would not be surprised at

all if I have Klinefelter's Syndrome where instead of being XY chromosome, I

have an extra X in my chromosomes, giving me 47 XXY.  I have most of the

symptoms, with the exception that my LH and FSH and estrogen are not elevated

(honestly not sure if there's a diff between estradiol and estrogen).  Usually

someone with this syndrome with have elevated LH, FSH and Estrogen.....but

apparently there's a ton of variability....some do, some don't. 

 

In event, I'm due for another set of labs but called my endo today and asked him

to put that off and instead do a chromosome test to determine if I have an

abnormality.  My understanding is that if I have Klinefelter's, my testicles

will never be able to increase in size and I never can have kids (this isn't

absolute, but the odds are overwhelmingly so).

 

I assume I'll probably have the test done this week and will post the results.

> From: derick_trent <derick_trent>

> Subject: Still trying to figure out my deal after so many

years....Hypogonadi sm, TRT/HGC

>

> Date: Saturday, October 10, 2009, 5:18 PM

> Not really sure where I probably fit

> in terms of the various sydromes and variants, but here's

> some data.

>

> Age 24 (before TRT):  6'0 " , 135 lbs., very low muscle

> mass, but not lean...tend to have fat on my middle, 34 "

> waist, Total Testosterone was 90, Prolactin was around 85,

> had an MRI but couldn't find anything wrong, small nuts

> (3/4 " ), voice never changed, not a single whisker, very thin

> wrists.

>

> Presently, at age 41, after TRT (shots at first, then

> scrotal patch, then Androgel, then HCG), my weight is 150

> lbs, still 6'0 " , same 34 waist, still very thin, small

> wrists, nuts never changed...still 3/4 " , voice changed of

> course, partial facial hair, larger than average penis size

> (I don't think I ever was small).  Prolactin has been

> normal since my late 20's, after taking Dostinex for several

> months.  I must've had a super tiny tumor on my

> pituitary, and the medication caused it to

> obliterate.. .awesome.

>

> I've never had semen analysis but I would be shocked if I

> was able to have kids. 

>

> Androgel seems to work the best out of everything. 

> Very stable and I'm able to put on a bit of muscle (not a

> lot, just enough to notice a difference) if I go to the gym

> 3-4 times per week.  I feel better and sex drive seems

> normal.

>

> I tried HCG about 500 IU 2x-3x a week for the past 2

> years.  My hope was to have my own body produce

> testosterone, instead of relying on Androgel, but whenever

> I'm on it exclusively, my body weight seems to drop and I

> don't have the energy I did when working out, despite the

> fact that my total testosterone tests normal while using

> it.  No idea why I feel better when using

> Androgel.  HCG also seems to make me blemish more on my

> face vs. Androgel.  Last time I was tested using just

> 500 units of HCG 2x per week, my testosterone level was a

> bit low.  I've tried higher amounts (1,000-2000 units

> 2x/wk) per my doctor's recommendation, but I get bad blemish

> issues and don't like to do it.  Then my doctor

> recommended I do 500 units of HCG and one pump of Androgel,

> 3x per week and that seems ok. 

>

> Anyway...I had hoped HCG would work better overall vs.

> Androgel, and that my testicle size would increase, but it

> hasn't. 

>

> When on Androgel exclusively, my FSH and LH always failed

> to show up on labwork.  Estrogen always remained normal

> while on Androgel exclusively, which surprised me as I

> expected it would increase.

>

> When I switched to using HCG exclusively (500mg 3x per

> week...no Androgel), I was surprised to see I had a normal

> FSH and LH level, and my estrogen was still totally normal,

> but was higher than it had been in the past.  I had

> begun to think I wasn't capable of producing FSH/LH when I

> used Androgel.

>

> I thought my testicle size would increase while taking HCG

> and having normal FSH/LH, but it hasn't at all.  I

> realized my sex drive was down too versus when I used

> Androgel.  Again, I've been using HCG for about 2

> years.  I think I might be done using it and will go to

> Androgel full time.

>

> Any thoughts as to why I can't increase my testicle

> size?  Or what I might try to do so? 

>

> If it ends up I can't, so be it....but still, it would be

> nice to have what other guys have, but it's not the end of

> the world. 

>

> And no idea why I'd feel weaker and have less stamina while

> using HCG than when using only Androgel.  Maybe I've

> just not been able to get the mix right..../sigh.

>

>

>

>

>

> ------------ --------- --------- ------

>

>

[Guest guest]

If I were you I would do more gel and do 500 IU's of HCG every 3 days see how

this works. And if your not getting good night time and morning wood get your

Estradiol levels down. I don't wast my time on testing Total Estrogen when I

keep my Estradiol in the sweet spot my E's do great in time.

Your not going to get good levels of LH and FSH adding even a little

Testosterone in gels or what ever your brain sees this and stops sending the LH

and FSH messages to your testis.

Your doing nothing to your self doing this low dose of gel I would just not do

it.

I know men on just HCG that say they feel fine but they do shots of HCG everyday

they start with 100 IU's and go up or down by how they feel and labs.

Co-Moderator

Phil

>

> > From: derick_trent <derick_trent>

> > Subject: Still trying to figure out my

> deal after so many years....Hypogonadi sm, TRT/HGC

> >

> > Date: Saturday, October 10, 2009, 5:18 PM

> > Not really sure where I probably fit

> > in terms of the various sydromes and variants, but

> here's

> > some data.

> >

> > Age 24 (before TRT):  6'0 " , 135 lbs., very low

> muscle

> > mass, but not lean...tend to have fat on my middle,

> 34 "

> > waist, Total Testosterone was 90, Prolactin was around

> 85,

> > had an MRI but couldn't find anything wrong, small

> nuts

> > (3/4 " ), voice never changed, not a single whisker,

> very thin

> > wrists.

> >

> > Presently, at age 41, after TRT (shots at first, then

> > scrotal patch, then Androgel, then HCG), my weight is

> 150

> > lbs, still 6'0 " , same 34 waist, still very thin,

> small

> > wrists, nuts never changed...still 3/4 " , voice changed

> of

> > course, partial facial hair, larger than average penis

> size

> > (I don't think I ever was small).  Prolactin has

> been

> > normal since my late 20's, after taking Dostinex for

> several

> > months.  I must've had a super tiny tumor on my

> > pituitary, and the medication caused it to

> > obliterate.. .awesome.

> >

> > I've never had semen analysis but I would be shocked

> if I

> > was able to have kids. 

> >

> > Androgel seems to work the best out of everything. 

> > Very stable and I'm able to put on a bit of muscle

> (not a

> > lot, just enough to notice a difference) if I go to

> the gym

> > 3-4 times per week.  I feel better and sex drive

> seems

> > normal.

> >

> > I tried HCG about 500 IU 2x-3x a week for the past 2

> > years.  My hope was to have my own body produce

> > testosterone, instead of relying on Androgel, but

> whenever

> > I'm on it exclusively, my body weight seems to drop

> and I

> > don't have the energy I did when working out, despite

> the

> > fact that my total testosterone tests normal while

> using

> > it.  No idea why I feel better when using

> > Androgel.  HCG also seems to make me blemish more on

> my

> > face vs. Androgel.  Last time I was tested using

> just

> > 500 units of HCG 2x per week, my testosterone level

> was a

> > bit low.  I've tried higher amounts (1,000-2000

> units

> > 2x/wk) per my doctor's recommendation, but I get bad

> blemish

> > issues and don't like to do it.  Then my doctor

> > recommended I do 500 units of HCG and one pump of

> Androgel,

> > 3x per week and that seems ok. 

> >

> > Anyway...I had hoped HCG would work better overall

> vs.

> > Androgel, and that my testicle size would increase,

> but it

> > hasn't. 

> >

> > When on Androgel exclusively, my FSH and LH always

> failed

> > to show up on labwork.  Estrogen always remained

> normal

> > while on Androgel exclusively, which surprised me as

> I

> > expected it would increase.

> >

> > When I switched to using HCG exclusively (500mg 3x

> per

> > week...no Androgel), I was surprised to see I had a

> normal

> > FSH and LH level, and my estrogen was still totally

> normal,

> > but was higher than it had been in the past.  I had

> > begun to think I wasn't capable of producing FSH/LH

> when I

> > used Androgel.

> >

> > I thought my testicle size would increase while taking

> HCG

> > and having normal FSH/LH, but it hasn't at all.  I

> > realized my sex drive was down too versus when I used

> > Androgel.  Again, I've been using HCG for about 2

> > years.  I think I might be done using it and will go

> to

> > Androgel full time.

> >

> > Any thoughts as to why I can't increase my testicle

> > size?  Or what I might try to do so? 

> >

> > If it ends up I can't, so be it....but still, it would

> be

> > nice to have what other guys have, but it's not the

> end of

> > the world. 

> >

> > And no idea why I'd feel weaker and have less stamina

> while

> > using HCG than when using only Androgel.  Maybe I've

> > just not been able to get the mix right..../sigh.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------ --------- --------- ------

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I definitely feel better when I add Androgel to the HCG.  I tried just HCG and

it just doesn't work good enough.  My morning wood is good, lol.  I'm very

reliable in that department.  I usually have a boner in the middle of the night

too.  Makes me wonder if that goes on all night, lol. 

 

I would think the levels of LH and FSH from the labs I had in June would be

sufficient enough to make my testicles increase in size.  My dosage rates of

both HCG and Androgel have been all over the place over the past 2 years, trying

to see what works best, so perhaps the rollercoaster screwed up my nuts' ability

to grow. 

 

Someone from a Klinefelter's board just said that if my LH and FSH aren't

significantly elevated, then it's highly doubtful I have an extra X

chromosome.  That would be a great relief.  I'll discuss further with my endo

today.

 

Oh, and regarding Cortisol

>

> > From: derick_trent <derick_trent>

> > Subject: Still trying to figure out my

> deal after so many years....Hypogonadi sm, TRT/HGC

> >

> > Date: Saturday, October 10, 2009, 5:18 PM

> > Not really sure where I probably fit

> > in terms of the various sydromes and variants, but

> here's

> > some data.

> >

> > Age 24 (before TRT):  6'0 " , 135 lbs., very low

> muscle

> > mass, but not lean...tend to have fat on my middle,

> 34 "

> > waist, Total Testosterone was 90, Prolactin was around

> 85,

> > had an MRI but couldn't find anything wrong, small

> nuts

> > (3/4 " ), voice never changed, not a single whisker,

> very thin

> > wrists.

> >

> > Presently, at age 41, after TRT (shots at first, then

> > scrotal patch, then Androgel, then HCG), my weight is

> 150

> > lbs, still 6'0 " , same 34 waist, still very thin,

> small

> > wrists, nuts never changed...still 3/4 " , voice changed

> of

> > course, partial facial hair, larger than average penis

> size

> > (I don't think I ever was small).  Prolactin has

> been

> > normal since my late 20's, after taking Dostinex for

> several

> > months.  I must've had a super tiny tumor on my

> > pituitary, and the medication caused it to

> > obliterate.. .awesome.

> >

> > I've never had semen analysis but I would be shocked

> if I

> > was able to have kids. 

> >

> > Androgel seems to work the best out of everything. 

> > Very stable and I'm able to put on a bit of muscle

> (not a

> > lot, just enough to notice a difference) if I go to

> the gym

> > 3-4 times per week.  I feel better and sex drive

> seems

> > normal.

> >

> > I tried HCG about 500 IU 2x-3x a week for the past 2

> > years.  My hope was to have my own body produce

> > testosterone, instead of relying on Androgel, but

> whenever

> > I'm on it exclusively, my body weight seems to drop

> and I

> > don't have the energy I did when working out, despite

> the

> > fact that my total testosterone tests normal while

> using

> > it.  No idea why I feel better when using

> > Androgel.  HCG also seems to make me blemish more on

> my

> > face vs. Androgel.  Last time I was tested using

> just

> > 500 units of HCG 2x per week, my testosterone level

> was a

> > bit low.  I've tried higher amounts (1,000-2000

> units

> > 2x/wk) per my doctor's recommendation, but I get bad

> blemish

> > issues and don't like to do it.  Then my doctor

> > recommended I do 500 units of HCG and one pump of

> Androgel,

> > 3x per week and that seems ok. 

> >

> > Anyway...I had hoped HCG would work better overall

> vs.

> > Androgel, and that my testicle size would increase,

> but it

> > hasn't. 

> >

> > When on Androgel exclusively, my FSH and LH always

> failed

> > to show up on labwork.  Estrogen always remained

> normal

> > while on Androgel exclusively, which surprised me as

> I

> > expected it would increase.

> >

> > When I switched to using HCG exclusively (500mg 3x

> per

> > week...no Androgel), I was surprised to see I had a

> normal

> > FSH and LH level, and my estrogen was still totally

> normal,

> > but was higher than it had been in the past.  I had

> > begun to think I wasn't capable of producing FSH/LH

> when I

> > used Androgel.

> >

> > I thought my testicle size would increase while taking

> HCG

> > and having normal FSH/LH, but it hasn't at all.  I

> > realized my sex drive was down too versus when I used

> > Androgel.  Again, I've been using HCG for about 2

> > years.  I think I might be done using it and will go

> to

> > Androgel full time.

> >

> > Any thoughts as to why I can't increase my testicle

> > size?  Or what I might try to do so? 

> >

> > If it ends up I can't, so be it....but still, it would

> be

> > nice to have what other guys have, but it's not the

> end of

> > the world. 

> >

> > And no idea why I'd feel weaker and have less stamina

> while

> > using HCG than when using only Androgel.  Maybe I've

> > just not been able to get the mix right..../sigh.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------ --------- --------- ------

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

No did they know your doing testosterone gels and HCG here is what happens I go

over it better. If your not on Gels and HCG then your LH and FSH levels would

tell a story on what is wrong with you. But when you add in Gels or

testosterone and HCG your brain sees this in your blood and stops sending or

slows down the LH and FSH messages to your test so you labs on them will be low

very low. This is way I tell men not to go on TRT or Do HCG until they know why

your levels are low. Going on TRT or HCG shuts down your pituitary and it will

not send much LH and FSH. And even stopping what your doing the brain will not

jump back in and make LH and FSH.

So if the people at that forum know your on TRT and doing HCG and still tell you

this they are not up on this.

Your best bet is your getting wood all night long and this is good as long as

your Estradiol levels stay good about 20 pg/ml. You say you feel better adding

gels then do 5 grams and do your HCG every 3 day give it time you will see if

you don't feel better wand get higher labs.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> >

> > > From: derick_trent <derick_trent@

> >

> > > Subject: Still trying to figure

> out my

> > deal after so many years....Hypogonadi sm, TRT/HGC

> > >

> > > Date: Saturday, October 10, 2009, 5:18 PM

> > > Not really sure where I probably fit

> > > in terms of the various sydromes and variants,

> but

> > here's

> > > some data.

> > >

> > > Age 24 (before TRT):  6'0 " , 135 lbs., very low

> > muscle

> > > mass, but not lean...tend to have fat on my

> middle,

> > 34 "

> > > waist, Total Testosterone was 90, Prolactin was

> around

> > 85,

> > > had an MRI but couldn't find anything wrong,

> small

> > nuts

> > > (3/4 " ), voice never changed, not a single

> whisker,

> > very thin

> > > wrists.

> > >

> > > Presently, at age 41, after TRT (shots at first,

> then

> > > scrotal patch, then Androgel, then HCG), my

> weight is

> > 150

> > > lbs, still 6'0 " , same 34 waist, still very thin,

> > small

> > > wrists, nuts never changed...still 3/4 " , voice

> changed

> > of

> > > course, partial facial hair, larger than average

> penis

> > size

> > > (I don't think I ever was small).  Prolactin

> has

> > been

> > > normal since my late 20's, after taking Dostinex

> for

> > several

> > > months.  I must've had a super tiny tumor on my

> > > pituitary, and the medication caused it to

> > > obliterate.. .awesome.

> > >

> > > I've never had semen analysis but I would be

> shocked

> > if I

> > > was able to have kids. 

> > >

> > > Androgel seems to work the best out of

> everything. 

> > > Very stable and I'm able to put on a bit of

> muscle

> > (not a

> > > lot, just enough to notice a difference) if I go

> to

> > the gym

> > > 3-4 times per week.  I feel better and sex

> drive

> > seems

> > > normal.

> > >

> > > I tried HCG about 500 IU 2x-3x a week for the

> past 2

> > > years.  My hope was to have my own body produce

> > > testosterone, instead of relying on Androgel,

> but

> > whenever

> > > I'm on it exclusively, my body weight seems to

> drop

> > and I

> > > don't have the energy I did when working out,

> despite

> > the

> > > fact that my total testosterone tests normal

> while

> > using

> > > it.  No idea why I feel better when using

> > > Androgel.  HCG also seems to make me blemish

> more on

> > my

> > > face vs. Androgel.  Last time I was tested

> using

> > just

> > > 500 units of HCG 2x per week, my testosterone

> level

> > was a

> > > bit low.  I've tried higher amounts (1,000-2000

> > units

> > > 2x/wk) per my doctor's recommendation, but I get

> bad

> > blemish

> > > issues and don't like to do it.  Then my doctor

> > > recommended I do 500 units of HCG and one pump

> of

> > Androgel,

> > > 3x per week and that seems ok. 

> > >

> > > Anyway...I had hoped HCG would work better

> overall

> > vs.

> > > Androgel, and that my testicle size would

> increase,

> > but it

> > > hasn't. 

> > >

> > > When on Androgel exclusively, my FSH and LH

> always

> > failed

> > > to show up on labwork.  Estrogen always

> remained

> > normal

> > > while on Androgel exclusively, which surprised me

> as

> > I

> > > expected it would increase.

> > >

> > > When I switched to using HCG exclusively (500mg

> 3x

> > per

> > > week...no Androgel), I was surprised to see I had

> a

> > normal

> > > FSH and LH level, and my estrogen was still

> totally

> > normal,

> > > but was higher than it had been in the past.  I

> had

> > > begun to think I wasn't capable of producing

> FSH/LH

> > when I

> > > used Androgel.

> > >

> > > I thought my testicle size would increase while

> taking

> > HCG

> > > and having normal FSH/LH, but it hasn't at all. 

> I

> > > realized my sex drive was down too versus when I

> used

> > > Androgel.  Again, I've been using HCG for about

> 2

> > > years.  I think I might be done using it and

> will go

> > to

> > > Androgel full time.

> > >

> > > Any thoughts as to why I can't increase my

> testicle

> > > size?  Or what I might try to do so? 

> > >

> > > If it ends up I can't, so be it....but still, it

> would

> > be

> > > nice to have what other guys have, but it's not

> the

> > end of

> > > the world. 

> > >

> > > And no idea why I'd feel weaker and have less

> stamina

> > while

> > > using HCG than when using only Androgel.  Maybe

> I've

> > > just not been able to get the mix

> right..../sigh.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ------------ --------- --------- ------

> > >

> > >