Re: TRT: when to expect results ?

[Guest guest]

> Anyway, she prescribed me Sustanon 250, and I had my very first shot nearly 3

days ago.

> Apart from a very sore buttock, I don't feel anything whatsoever yet...

> I started to worry: won't TRT make any difference for me or am I just to

impatient ? I thought that injections cause a supraphysiological level of T

during the first days, shouldn't I be noticing that ? Shouldn't I feel quite

horny for example ?

> How long does it usually take before one starts to notice improvement

concerning fatigue, mood and sexuality?

Hi,

I'm guessing you're in the UK or ???

(buttock and sustanon)

guessing you got a full amp (250mg of sustanon... though there is a sustanon

100) I'd think you'd feel " something " from the bits of faster acting tests (like

the prop)...

I'd give it a few more days really... sustanon does have some faster tests in it

than the straight cypionate or enthenates that are common in the states the bulk

of it is an even slower ester... so give it a few days for the phenylpropionate

to start working too.

when are you going back for your second shot?

(hopefully a week) then when you get even you can do self injections.

ask about a sensitive e2 test in a month or so... there's reportedly less of a

problem with aromatization with blends though I still do a 1/4mg of arimidex eod

myself (I'm using a blended test too)

though you shouldn't really have a sore buttock from even a full cc of

sustanon... unless it was just a bad shot with a big spike.

from wiki:

Sustanon 250 is a trade name for an oil-based injectable blend of four esterized

testosterone compounds:

* 30mg Testosterone Propionate

* 60mg Testosterone Phenylpropionate

* 60mg Testosterone Isocaproate

* 100mg Testosterone Decanoate

Sustanon 100 is similar, though with three esters. The smaller dose is for

pediatric use.

* 20mg Testosterone Propionate

* 40mg Testosterone Phenylpropionate

* 40mg Testosterone Isocaproate

[Guest guest]

Thanks for your reply,

I'm in Belgium actually and it is indeed sustanon " 250 " (it's the only

testosteron therapy that is refunded by the National Health Service here)

I will get my second shot within 4 weeks only :-(

4 weeks after that second shot I have to undergo another blood test, to

determine if a 3 week interval would be better.

The shot itself wasn't painful, but a few hours later the pain started and

lasted for 4 days, I could hardly lie on that side at night. It was given in the

upper part of the gluteal muscles, almost in the lower back.

I could also opt for Nebido injections or Androgel. The problem with Androgel is

that the doctor wanted me to start on 2.5g only, " that suffices for most man "

she claims. I don't believe though that 2.5g is going to raise my T levels

sufficiently ! On the contrary, I might need more than 5g, but in this case

therapy is going to be very expensive.

Should I switch to Nebido ???

I haven't been feeling well for such a long time that I don't believe

anymore I will ever do so again. It's like playing the lottery: one would love

to win, but one knows it is extremely unlikely to happen.

But I keep my fingers crossed for the testosterone (and in the same time for the

lottery as well :-)

>

>

> > Anyway, she prescribed me Sustanon 250, and I had my very first shot nearly

3 days ago.

> > Apart from a very sore buttock, I don't feel anything whatsoever yet...

> > I started to worry: won't TRT make any difference for me or am I just to

impatient ? I thought that injections cause a supraphysiological level of T

during the first days, shouldn't I be noticing that ? Shouldn't I feel quite

horny for example ?

> > How long does it usually take before one starts to notice improvement

concerning fatigue, mood and sexuality?

>

> Hi,

>

> I'm guessing you're in the UK or ???

>

> (buttock and sustanon)

>

> guessing you got a full amp (250mg of sustanon... though there is a sustanon

100) I'd think you'd feel " something " from the bits of faster acting tests (like

the prop)...

>

> I'd give it a few more days really... sustanon does have some faster tests in

it than the straight cypionate or enthenates that are common in the states the

bulk of it is an even slower ester... so give it a few days for the

phenylpropionate to start working too.

>

> when are you going back for your second shot?

> (hopefully a week) then when you get even you can do self injections.

>

> ask about a sensitive e2 test in a month or so... there's reportedly less of a

problem with aromatization with blends though I still do a 1/4mg of arimidex eod

myself (I'm using a blended test too)

>

> though you shouldn't really have a sore buttock from even a full cc of

sustanon... unless it was just a bad shot with a big spike.

>

> from wiki:

>

> Sustanon 250 is a trade name for an oil-based injectable blend of four

esterized testosterone compounds:

>

> * 30mg Testosterone Propionate

> * 60mg Testosterone Phenylpropionate

> * 60mg Testosterone Isocaproate

> * 100mg Testosterone Decanoate

>

> Sustanon 100 is similar, though with three esters. The smaller dose is for

pediatric use.

>

> * 20mg Testosterone Propionate

> * 40mg Testosterone Phenylpropionate

> * 40mg Testosterone Isocaproate

>

[Guest guest]

Your bloodwork results are very very similar to mine only I have TT at 300ng/dL

and LH is 4.7 U/l

Bottom line is although your LH is relatively low other people have posted

similar results to you for LH and are pumping out more testosterone. Besides

that LH is pulsatile in nature and you cannot therefore read too much into the

one reading.

Your endo's diagnosis of LOH (secondary) is unfounded or at the very least

unproven in my opinion. Yes low/normal together with low LH & FSH points towards

pituitary problem rather than testicles themselves but has your endo done any

follow up tests such as pituitary MRI scan for possible tumours or done hCG

stimulation test to see if your testicles are capable of producing endogeneous

testosterone?

Also LOH implicity refers to older men not men at 34 years old!

Do you have small testicles? - if so likely you have a primary issue e.g

klinefelters. A karotype test would rule this out

Your endo like you said is way off the mark with starting you on 2.5g of

Androgel. Infact its quite worrying she backed this up by saying other men are

fine on 2.5g - this is complete bull. I think many people experience some pain

like you say if taking longer-acting testosterone gel which is suspended in

thicker oil like Nebido - you should def try and get down to bi-monthly or

weekly injections - this should help with pain and give less variation in

hormone profile.

Also you should get estrogen monitored along with testosterone - very important.

You mentioned you are from Belgium - have you seen Dr. Thierry Hertoghe who is

from from Belgium? He is widely recognised as the one of the best endo's in

Europe in treating Hypogonadism.

>

> Hi,

>

> I'm very happy to have found this group !

> I have been suffering for more than a decade from lethargy, moodiness,

tendency to depression, and non refreshing sleep.

> Doctors have been telling me that this is caused either by depression or

chronic fatigue syndrome. None of which makes sense to me. I have been taking

antidepressants for 8 years now, without the slightest improvement.

>

> On the sexual side: weak orgasms, extremely long refractory time, premature

ejaculation. Libido is less but still ok, erections are excellent though no

morning erections at all since many years.

>

> A half year ago I insisted to have my T levels checked, each blood test over

that period of time indicated low T.

> These were the latest results (I'm only 34 years old !):

>

> Total T: 140 ng/dl (280-990)

> Free T: 3.89 ng/dl (6-25)

> Dihydrotestosterone: 19 ng/dl (25-100)

> SHBG: 13.8 nmol/l (14-50)

> LH: 1.8 IU/L (1.7-8.6)

> FSH: 4.9 IU/L (1.5-12.4)

> Prolactine: 128 mIU/L (86-324)

> 17 Hydroxy Progesterone: 0.3 µg/L (0.32-3.3)

> Estradiol: <5 ng/L (13.5-59.5)

> DHEA: 216 µg/dl (160-449)

>

> According to the endocrinologist it's late onset secondary hypogonadism,

though she doesn't seem to be willing to make the link between low T and my

symptoms...

> A pituitary MRI didn't reveal any abnormality.

>

> Anyway, she prescribed me Sustanon 250, and I had my very first shot nearly 3

days ago.

> Apart from a very sore buttock, I don't feel anything whatsoever yet...

> I started to worry: won't TRT make any difference for me or am I just to

impatient ? I thought that injections cause a supraphysiological level of T

during the first days, shouldn't I be noticing that ? Shouldn't I feel quite

horny for example ?

> How long does it usually take before one starts to notice improvement

concerning fatigue, mood and sexuality?

>

> Thanks for your input !

>

> michdys

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Thanks for your reply,

>

> I'm in Belgium actually and it is indeed sustanon " 250 " (it's the only

testosteron therapy that is refunded by the National Health Service here)

>

> I will get my second shot within 4 weeks only :-(

> 4 weeks after that second shot I have to undergo another blood test, to

determine if a 3 week interval would be better.

Hi,

well after 4 weeks you'll be back to baseline! even considering the slower

decanoate in sustanon.... so yea 3 will be " better " you'll still be back to

baseline but won't be there as long!

" average " dose seems to be 100-125mg of cypionate/enanthate in the US... or

1/2ml once a week... sustanon isn't magic.. it's just a blend that some people

like the rapid onset and longer action of... but at the same time longer esters

(like decoanate) actually deliver less test per mg (because the ester weighs

more)...

1/2ml once a week of sustanon is probably close to what you actually need...

some do more some less...

note the repeated reference to " once a week " (some here inject smaller doses

twice a week) so you won't be on a roller coaster of HIGH TEST then -crash- then

HIGH TEST then -crash-.

if you can get lab work done you may choose to privately source your

testosterone and use the national health service basically to just do your lab

work...

I can't comment on Nebido(sp?) it's supposed to be SUPER long acting... but

probably SUPER slow in getting test levels up...

but I've never actually even SEEN it in the States.

> The shot itself wasn't painful, but a few hours later the pain started and

lasted for 4 days, I could hardly lie on that side at night. It was given in the

upper part of the gluteal muscles, almost in the lower back.

sounds like a bad shot... happens sometimes to the best of us.

> I could also opt for Nebido injections or Androgel. The problem with Androgel

is that the doctor wanted me to start on 2.5g only, " that suffices for most man "

she claims. I don't believe though that 2.5g is going to raise my T levels

sufficiently ! On the contrary, I might need more than 5g, but in this case

therapy is going to be very expensive.

> Should I switch to Nebido ???

-I- switched to ordering from a IOP myself.

as for what " suffices " well 175mg of a sustanon-like blend weekly " suffices " for

me... I've got more muscle, better lipid profile, less fat, better attitude, and

a VERY HAPPY WIFE ;-} despite me being 53.

of course I shoot for the TOP 10% of the " normal range " not just somewhere " in

range " ... I've got the testosterone levels of a 20something guy and the libido

to match :-}

when I switched it was actually cheaper for me to just order 10ml vials and pay

full price than to go through insurance and the local pharmacy.... so now my

test comes from Romania and Arimidex and HCG from India... my lab work is done

by the local medical school's dept. of endocrinology.

which reminds me I need to go do my HCG :-}

> I haven't been feeling well for such a long time that I don't

> believe anymore I will ever do so again.

if your testosterone levels are low enough that a woman doctor (who really only

theoretically knows that one can feel bad with low test levels) will give you

test you're LOW... once you get them back up... and pretty even... you'll feel

much better.

ttyl

[Guest guest]

> Also LOH implicity refers to older men not men at 34 years old!

that's one thing the OP and I don't have in common... I'm 20 years older than

him!

I'm just an old guy... a classic " andropause " case.

> Your endo like you said is way off the mark with starting you on 2.5g of

Androgel. Infact its quite worrying she backed this up by saying other men are

fine on 2.5g - this is complete bull.

2.5g might get you in range... on the BOTTOM end of range... which to a doc who

thinks testosterone and it's androgenic properties is BAD and should only be

used in LOW doses makes " sense " ... to that doc... a woman.

I bet she wouldn't feel the same way about HRT if as a woman she had a full

hysterectomy!

> I think many people experience some pain like you say if taking

> longer-acting testosterone gel which is suspended in thicker oil

> like Nebido - you should def try and get down to bi-monthly or

> weekly injections - this should help with pain and give less

> variation in hormone profile.

I didn't mention that but it's a real plus to weekly injections... smaller shots

(with smaller needle) means less pain at the injection site...

which is also a plus for the higher dose/ml tests... I see blends offered from

330mg/ml all the way to 450mg/ml and they give you a really SMALL shot volume...

to get my dose in " regular US 200mg/ml cypionate " I'd have to do almost .9 ml...

but since I'm using a 350mg/ml test blend I do .5ml

> Also you should get estrogen monitored along with testosterone -

> very important.

yea once you are on test you'll have test to aromatize and convert to

estrogen... be especially vigilant about nipple tenderness (a BAD SIGN) along

with weak libido and/or emotionalness... the later being hard to describe...

ttyl

[Guest guest]

Over the last half year, 3 blood tests have been done (TT 210, 310 ad now 140),

with LH never higher than 3 IU/L (1.7-8.6)

A did a dynamic pituitary MRI (3 Tesla), no pituitary abnormalities.

No hCG stimulation test though.

My testes have normal size and I'm a father of 3 children.

I haven't seen Dr. Thierry Hertoghe, I was under the impression that he doesn't

accept new patients anymore (he has assistants though)

I tried to see his sister Dr. Thérèse Hertoghe, but couldn't get in (huge

waiting list)

I don't feel comfortable with my (3rd) endo: a few months ago, when my TT was

210 and FT 61, she claimed that wasn't a problem at all, since my free T was

still within the " normal " reference range (60-250)!

I told her that if I were 80 years old I would be happy with her statement but

that there is no way such a low levels were normal for a 34 years old man.

Luckily my latest test was far below her dear reference range...

I wonder if she herself will hesitate that long to take hormones ones she's hit

by her menopause !

Anyway, now it's now day 8 after my first shot. My libido has unquestionably

gone up, and since day 4 I noticed that I don't feel so tired anymore that I

need to lie down on the sofa at 9pm already.

Since day 7 though I feel worse again: strange feeling in my head (like feeling

" wired " ), in the same time feeling lazy and lethargic again, and feeling hot

(literally that is to say). I wonder if that has anything to do with reaching a

peak in testosteron level or with increased estradiol.

Let's see how it evolves.

> >

> > Hi,

> >

> > I'm very happy to have found this group !

> > I have been suffering for more than a decade from lethargy, moodiness,

tendency to depression, and non refreshing sleep.

> > Doctors have been telling me that this is caused either by depression or

chronic fatigue syndrome. None of which makes sense to me. I have been taking

antidepressants for 8 years now, without the slightest improvement.

> >

> > On the sexual side: weak orgasms, extremely long refractory time, premature

ejaculation. Libido is less but still ok, erections are excellent though no

morning erections at all since many years.

> >

> > A half year ago I insisted to have my T levels checked, each blood test over

that period of time indicated low T.

> > These were the latest results (I'm only 34 years old !):

> >

> > Total T: 140 ng/dl (280-990)

> > Free T: 3.89 ng/dl (6-25)

> > Dihydrotestosterone: 19 ng/dl (25-100)

> > SHBG: 13.8 nmol/l (14-50)

> > LH: 1.8 IU/L (1.7-8.6)

> > FSH: 4.9 IU/L (1.5-12.4)

> > Prolactine: 128 mIU/L (86-324)

> > 17 Hydroxy Progesterone: 0.3 µg/L (0.32-3.3)

> > Estradiol: <5 ng/L (13.5-59.5)

> > DHEA: 216 µg/dl (160-449)

> >

> > According to the endocrinologist it's late onset secondary hypogonadism,

though she doesn't seem to be willing to make the link between low T and my

symptoms...

> > A pituitary MRI didn't reveal any abnormality.

> >

> > Anyway, she prescribed me Sustanon 250, and I had my very first shot nearly

3 days ago.

> > Apart from a very sore buttock, I don't feel anything whatsoever yet...

> > I started to worry: won't TRT make any difference for me or am I just to

impatient ? I thought that injections cause a supraphysiological level of T

during the first days, shouldn't I be noticing that ? Shouldn't I feel quite

horny for example ?

> > How long does it usually take before one starts to notice improvement

concerning fatigue, mood and sexuality?

> >

> > Thanks for your input !

> >

> > michdys

> >

>

[Guest guest]

michdys

You really need to get your levels (inc e2) analysed soon after your injection

to get an idea of your peak and then again just before your next injection to

get the trough - that way you will better understand why your feeling crappy

soon before your next injection i.e. due to high e2/TT ratio or low on both TT

and e2

apologies if you have already done this - vast majority of endo's really should

not be allowed to practice when you hear of their severe incompetencies

> > >

> > > Hi,

> > >

> > > I'm very happy to have found this group !

> > > I have been suffering for more than a decade from lethargy, moodiness,

tendency to depression, and non refreshing sleep.

> > > Doctors have been telling me that this is caused either by depression or

chronic fatigue syndrome. None of which makes sense to me. I have been taking

antidepressants for 8 years now, without the slightest improvement.

> > >

> > > On the sexual side: weak orgasms, extremely long refractory time,

premature ejaculation. Libido is less but still ok, erections are excellent

though no morning erections at all since many years.

> > >

> > > A half year ago I insisted to have my T levels checked, each blood test

over that period of time indicated low T.

> > > These were the latest results (I'm only 34 years old !):

> > >

> > > Total T: 140 ng/dl (280-990)

> > > Free T: 3.89 ng/dl (6-25)

> > > Dihydrotestosterone: 19 ng/dl (25-100)

> > > SHBG: 13.8 nmol/l (14-50)

> > > LH: 1.8 IU/L (1.7-8.6)

> > > FSH: 4.9 IU/L (1.5-12.4)

> > > Prolactine: 128 mIU/L (86-324)

> > > 17 Hydroxy Progesterone: 0.3 µg/L (0.32-3.3)

> > > Estradiol: <5 ng/L (13.5-59.5)

> > > DHEA: 216 µg/dl (160-449)

> > >

> > > According to the endocrinologist it's late onset secondary hypogonadism,

though she doesn't seem to be willing to make the link between low T and my

symptoms...

> > > A pituitary MRI didn't reveal any abnormality.

> > >

> > > Anyway, she prescribed me Sustanon 250, and I had my very first shot

nearly 3 days ago.

> > > Apart from a very sore buttock, I don't feel anything whatsoever yet...

> > > I started to worry: won't TRT make any difference for me or am I just to

impatient ? I thought that injections cause a supraphysiological level of T

during the first days, shouldn't I be noticing that ? Shouldn't I feel quite

horny for example ?

> > > How long does it usually take before one starts to notice improvement

concerning fatigue, mood and sexuality?

> > >

> > > Thanks for your input !

> > >

> > > michdys

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Noticing any changes now? Other questions?

On Sat, 28 Mar 2009 19:39:53 -0000, you wrote:

>Hi,

>

>I'm very happy to have found this group !

>I have been suffering for more than a decade from lethargy, moodiness, tendency

to depression, and non refreshing sleep.

>Doctors have been telling me that this is caused either by depression or

chronic fatigue syndrome. None of which makes sense to me. I have been taking

antidepressants for 8 years now, without the slightest improvement.

>

>On the sexual side: weak orgasms, extremely long refractory time, premature

ejaculation. Libido is less but still ok, erections are excellent though no

morning erections at all since many years.

>

>A half year ago I insisted to have my T levels checked, each blood test over

that period of time indicated low T.

>These were the latest results (I'm only 34 years old !):

>

>Total T: 140 ng/dl (280-990)

>Free T: 3.89 ng/dl (6-25)

>Dihydrotestosterone: 19 ng/dl (25-100)

>SHBG: 13.8 nmol/l (14-50)

>LH: 1.8 IU/L (1.7-8.6)

>FSH: 4.9 IU/L (1.5-12.4)

>Prolactine: 128 mIU/L (86-324)

>17 Hydroxy Progesterone: 0.3 µg/L (0.32-3.3)

>Estradiol: <5 ng/L (13.5-59.5)

>DHEA: 216 µg/dl (160-449)

>

>According to the endocrinologist it's late onset secondary hypogonadism, though

she doesn't seem to be willing to make the link between low T and my symptoms...

>A pituitary MRI didn't reveal any abnormality.

>

>Anyway, she prescribed me Sustanon 250, and I had my very first shot nearly 3

days ago.

>Apart from a very sore buttock, I don't feel anything whatsoever yet...

>I started to worry: won't TRT make any difference for me or am I just to

impatient ? I thought that injections cause a supraphysiological level of T

during the first days, shouldn't I be noticing that ? Shouldn't I feel quite

horny for example ?

>How long does it usually take before one starts to notice improvement

concerning fatigue, mood and sexuality?

>

>Thanks for your input !

>

>michdys

[Guest guest]

On Fri, 03 Apr 2009 12:44:08 -0000, you wrote:

>Anyway, now it's now day 8 after my first shot. My libido has unquestionably

gone up, and since day 4 I noticed that I don't feel so tired anymore that I

need to lie down on the sofa at 9pm already.

>Since day 7 though I feel worse again: strange feeling in my head (like feeling

" wired " ), in the same time feeling lazy and lethargic again, and feeling hot

(literally that is to say). I wonder if that has anything to do with reaching a

peak in testosteron level or with increased estradiol.

>Let's see how it evolves.

This is common. Once TRT start E2 starts to climb. After a week or two

E2 often gets high enough to start robbing the effects of T. It out

competes T for many of the same receptor sites.

Shippen writes about this week two feeling in his book. have you seen

his book?

http://www.amazon.com/Testosterone-Syndrome-Critical-Sexuality-Reversing-Menopau\

se/dp/087131858X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8 & s=books & qid=1238890744 & sr=8-1

Oh I found a Shippen interview in looking for the book!

http://www.antiagingresearch.com/faq_doc_shippen.shtml

[Guest guest]

you might want to look into anti-depressants causing your low T. I was but on

one last summer by my regular DR and then before you know it my T levels were

real low. before I started on T- shots I asked my ENDO if psychotropic AKA

anti-depressants could lower T since they effect LIBIDO and he told me yes. He

told me if I wanted to try weaning off anti-depressants and see what happens

that he was fine with that. Well now as I have lowered my dose of

anti-depressant lower and lower my T level his slower been rising back up some

on its on. It was an obvious question to ask because every anti-depressant is

known to kill libido. so what is it doing to your body to be killing libido. I

think it is lowering testesterone levels. I am a prime example.

>Hi,

>

>I'm very happy to have found this group !

>I have been suffering for more than a decade from lethargy, moodiness, tendency

to depression, and non refreshing sleep.

>Doctors have been telling me that this is caused either by depression or

chronic fatigue syndrome. None of which makes sense to me. I have been taking

antidepressants for 8 years now, without the slightest improvement.

>

>On the sexual side: weak orgasms, extremely long refractory time, premature

ejaculation. Libido is less but still ok, erections are excellent though no

morning erections at all since many years.

>

>A half year ago I insisted to have my T levels checked, each blood test over

that period of time indicated low T.

>These were the latest results (I'm only 34 years old !):

>

>Total T: 140 ng/dl (280-990)

>Free T: 3.89 ng/dl (6-25)

>Dihydrotestosteron e: 19 ng/dl (25-100)

>SHBG: 13.8 nmol/l (14-50)

>LH: 1.8 IU/L (1.7-8.6)

>FSH: 4.9 IU/L (1.5-12.4)

>Prolactine: 128 mIU/L (86-324)

>17 Hydroxy Progesterone: 0.3 µg/L (0.32-3.3)

>Estradiol: <5 ng/L (13.5-59.5)

>DHEA: 216 µg/dl (160-449)

>

>According to the endocrinologist it's late onset secondary hypogonadism, though

she doesn't seem to be willing to make the link between low T and my symptoms...

>A pituitary MRI didn't reveal any abnormality.

>

>Anyway, she prescribed me Sustanon 250, and I had my very first shot nearly 3

days ago.

>Apart from a very sore buttock, I don't feel anything whatsoever yet...

>I started to worry: won't TRT make any difference for me or am I just to

impatient ? I thought that injections cause a supraphysiological level of T

during the first days, shouldn't I be noticing that ? Shouldn't I feel quite

horny for example ?

>How long does it usually take before one starts to notice improvement

concerning fatigue, mood and sexuality?

>

>Thanks for your input !

>

>michdys