Re: [NTH-Adrenals] Re: / men / testosterone

[Guest guest]

jeff_cline2003 wrote:

> I found your previous post, can't tell if you take just T injections,

> or with HCG. If you started with just T injections, how would you

> know you need to add HCG? We are middle aged with teenagers, no more

> kids planned.

I read about HCG, got the protocol from http://www.allthingsmale.com/ in

the publications area and decided it was something I wanted to do. My

reasoning is that there can be LH receptors all over the body, not just

the testicles and given that HCG mimics LH, then injecting HCG would

provided the benefits of LH everywhere it " might " be useful.

Testosterone replacement suppresses the body's natural LH production and

the general practices is to do nothing about that.

> We are reducing his cream dose and trying to address estrogen being

> high, I think that is the route we should have started with (???).

> Will take DIM along with Nettle Root. Have you heard from the forum

> if reducing estrogen brings T counts back up? Really starting to

> think that the high estrogen was the beginning of his troubles.

It's a balancing act. Yes, if T can be prevented from getting converted

to estradiol, then T levels should go back up. The optimum estradiol

level is between 20-30 based on an extensive review of the medical

literature made by The Life Extension Foundation. One of their monthly

magazines focused on T in the past few months and it's available now on

their web site free. See, http://www.lef.org/

Lef.org also recommends that T levels be at the upper end of the lab

reference range and I think there recommendation for free T ranges well

above the lab reference range. The lab reference ranges have been

lowered over the past few years because labs based their ranges on the

blood they sample and the average T level for men has been decreasing

from, perhaps, environment issues and exposure to increased chemicals.

So, in my opinion, the lab reference ranges for total T and free T is

artificially low.

> If he decides on injectable, can he use his current script? Or do you

> order on your own? You can PM us if you need to.

He will need a new prescription with a US pharmacy. Without a

prescription one can order T internationally, but I've never ordered T

internationally. Testosterone Cypionate is what I use. It has a half

life of about 2-3 weeks and works best injected once weekly. However,

there are some men that inject it twice a week but I don't think that's

very common. Many endos will prescribe injections every two weeks but

that is too far apart and T levels will fluctuate up and down way too

much. Larger inejctions are more likely to get converted to estradiol

so weekly I think is the best trade off. Again, I think the

recommendations at http://www.allthingsmale.com/ are good.

> I posted his labs on the email that starts with " Neil - Bump " on this

> thread. (Can't get to it while writing this). Can you tell if his

> counts are high enough to be able to bring them up by reducing estrogen?

>

> Thanks,

>

I look through my " trash " and found this post. I think this is the one

you were talking about. (My trash had almost 70,000 old posts!)

> Neil,

> > The only estrogen lab we have is saliva, it was 8 with ranges of

either 1-3, or 1-5 (he was

> > 50 when we ran it, the oldest of the 1-3, and the youngest of the

1-5). The doctor didn't

> > run estrogen labs, we showed him the saliva labs.

I don't have much confidence in saliva testing when it comes to

hormones. As you might be aware, I ran the same identical saliva tests

collected on the same day within 20 minutes of each other and sent it

off to two seperate labs. I got different results. I didn't test

estradiol but I did test progesterone and one lab said I was low and the

other said I was high. I'm not comfortable with that.

Blood work is much more consistent at this point AND that's were the

research is on optimum levels. Consequently, I would want to run a some

blood work instead of the saliva testing for estradiol. Even on the

list (2500+ members), saliva testing is

not something anyone does unless they happen to be testing cortisol, a

not too common event there.

> > His saliva labs were: estrogen (above), testosterone 24, range 35-65

Again, I'm think the jury is still out on saliva for testosterone.

There are some in this group that are confident in it but I'm definitely

not one of them. Even my two sets of cortisol tests were as much as 50%

different within the respective lab ranges. My options for cortisol

testing are however much more limited since labs are not typically

opened after 6 PM for blood draws.

> > Blood work: total testosterone 441, range 250-1100, free test. 84.7,

range 35-155

His saliva test says he is low on T but his blood work says low normal.

I notice that you have a lab reference range that goes to 1100 at the

high end. I'm guessing this is a Quest lab. LabCorp lowered the high

end to 800 something and my doctor gets concerned if it goes over the

" new " top end. Since I often order my own blood work, I typically cut

back my injections before a test to make sure the blood work comes in

well under 800 and usually get 500-600. I provide a copy of this blood

work to my doctor and that works for him. I do think that 500-600 is

the lowest any man should be at unless he has hormone sensitive prostate

cancer.

> > His TSH was 3.8, and doc wouldn't give him thyroid med, so I am

giving him 1 gr. a day of

> > mine, temps are LOW, around 97, and don't raise when he increases

dose (RT3??). But the

> > estrogen supposedly affects thyroid......so confusing!

> >

> > Any input is greatly appreciated!

> >

I'm not as familiar with thyroid as I am with the issues surrounding

testosterone, hcg, and estradiol control in men. Thyroid is a new area

where I'm forging ahead without a doctor's supervision or foot dragging.

I'm am lucky in that I have the resources to do what I need and/or

want to do. My TSH was 1.572 after taking iodine but my temps were

still low so I started T3, am up to 75 mcg/day, and still my temps have

only come up half way. I have no hyper symptoms at this point but I

suspect my TSH is quite low at this point. I'm going to refuse any TSH

lab work until I get my thyroid meds optimum.

At a TSH of 3.8, I think he is too high. My opinion.

Personally, I wouldn't use my own meds on my wife without replacing them

from international sources. I also would be inclined to ask the doctor

for a three month " trial " of at least 1.5 to 2 grains a day (or whatever

you can reasonably suggest - I would provide the doctor with a " trial "

range with the low end higher than I think it needs to be.) If

necessary, I would provide the doctor with references to cardiovascular

disease decreased from thyroid replacement or I would dig up an old

medical questionnaire that a thyroid doctor may have used before the

advent of the TSH test and fill it out and make my case. I can be a

PAIN in the .... if necessary but it usually doesn't come to that.)

I always show up at a doctor's appointment with a printed list of MY

ISSUES in the order that I want them discussed and provide the doctor

with his own copy. I keep the issues short and sweet but may provide a

one sentence or phrase of my reasoning for each issue. I try to make

doing what I want the easiest thing for the doctor to do, than anything

else takes more work and/or justification on his part.

This is already way too long.

--

Steve - dudescholar4@...

Take World's Smallest Political Quiz at

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html

" If a thousand old beliefs were ruined on our march

to truth we must still march on. " --Stopford

[Guest guest]

Steve wrote:

>

> jeff_cline2003 wrote:

>> I found your previous post, can't tell if you take just T injections,

>> or with HCG. If you started with just T injections, how would you

>> know you need to add HCG? We are middle aged with teenagers, no more

>> kids planned.

>

> I read about HCG, got the protocol from http://www.allthingsmale.com/ in

> the publications area and decided it was something I wanted to do. My

.....

My apologies; I accidentally sent this reply off to the

group as well since I pulled it up in the

" to: " area to see how to spell it and forgot to delete it.

--

Steve - dudescholar4@...

Take World's Smallest Political Quiz at

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html

" If a thousand old beliefs were ruined on our march

to truth we must still march on. " --Stopford