Re: Latest blood test results confusing

August 10, 2009

First thing you need to do is stop the soy isoflavones SOY is no good for men

Stop taking it. It only works this way on women a mans Estradiol is different

from women. Also doing 25 mgs of DHEA will not drive up Estradiol levels it's

when we do more the 50 mgs this might happen. Your estradiol levels went up

because your on Gels. For me this was the worst type of TRT I was ever on it

drove my DHT up to 4x's above the top of the range this drove my prostate nuts.

Men don't do good on gels get sore joints and muscles because the Testosterone

going through the skin dose something to the Testosterone where it dose not

support your joints and muscles. I had dam bad pain on gels with very high

levels of Estradiol more then the shots I do today.

I did the same thing switched to Testim and still need the max dose plus my Dr.

was giving me 200 mgs shots every two weeks to keep my levels up.

If you get up in the morning and put on the gel then go and do labs your going

to get high numbers.

The right way to do labs on gels is to get up and do a good shower to get all

the gel off your skin the go do your labs before you put on the gels. If you

can't do this put on the gel make sure you don't get it on the area they take

the blood from and do this 6 hrs after you put on the gel. For the first 4 to 6

hrs your levels will spike up and look dam high. We need to know how low we go

before doing the gel again it's when we fall to low that makes us feel bad.

I finely told my Dr. after posting about my joint and muscle pain and getting a

reply from one of the guys saying he had the same problems and switched to shots

and his pain went away. I did the same best thing I ever did. Today I do shots

every 3 days and HCG the 2 days each in between doing this keeps me leveled and

holds down Estradiol.

If your Estradiol levels don't come down in 2 weeks on Indolplex/DIM then take 2

pills give it a week if not then you need Arimidex.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: rverbill <rverbill@...>

> Subject: Latest blood test results confusing

>

> Date: Monday, August 10, 2009, 12:15 PM

> I started having the symptoms of low

> T almost 2 years ago, but it took me several months to

> figure out what it might be. My doctor agreed and tested my

> total T, which was at 304 ng/dl. He thought it should be at

> least 500, even at my age of 63 at the time and started me

> on 5 gm of Androgel. Unfortunately, he didn't test for

> anything else at the time, but that is over and done now.

>

> I did not absorb the Androgel well at all and my total T

> was at 277 after 6 months, 2 of those at a dose of 7.5 gm. I

> then read that Testim absorbed better than Androgel and he

> switched me to 10 gm of Testim. Four months later, my total

> T was at 644 and then 2 months after that it was at 862

> (250-1100 for all tests at Quest) The problem is that my E2

> slowly rose over time from 25.6 after 2 months on Androgel

> to 57.2 (<20-56) when my total T was at 862. My free T

> also rose to 179 (35-155) and my DHT rose to 132 (25-75). My

> depression was gone, but I still had some ED and lower

> libido than just a year or 2 earlier.

>

> I was also taking 25 mg of DHEA daily and thought that it

> was the reason for the high E2, as DHEA converts to E2 many

> times in men. I made the following changes:

>

> Stopped DHEA

> Lowered Testim from 10 gm to 7.5 gm

> Increased saw palmetto from 320 mg to 480 mg daily

> Started to take 1 Indolplex DIM daily

> Started to take small amount of supplemental soy

> isoflavones daily, as some articles and animal studies that

> I have read say that they take up the estrogen receptor

> sites and lower E2.

>

> So 2 months after starting this I had another set of blood

> tests. Here are the results and change from 2 months ago.

>

> Total T â€“ 862Â toÂ 268 (250-1100)

> Free T â€“ 179Â toÂ 50 (35-155)

> E2 â€“ 57.2Â toÂ <20 (<20-56)

> DHT â€“ 132Â toÂ 76 (25-75)

> DHEA-S â€“ 232Â toÂ (don't have results yet)

>

> My ED has come back some. Some mornings I have good morning

> erections and others nothing. My dreams have also come to a

> halt.

>

> I believe that all tests were at the same labs, which is

> local hospital for E2 and Quest for all others. I will ask

> the doctor when I see him tomorrow.

>

> Any thoughts would be appreciated.

>

> ------------------------------------

>

August 11, 2009

>

> The right way to do labs on gels is to get up and do a good shower to get all

the gel off your skin the go do your labs before you put on the gels.

> Co-Moderator

> Phil

Phil, this part confuses me. I have always read that the best time to have blood

drawn is as early in the morning as possible so that you are testing at peak T

levels. This is for men who are not on TRT. So if a guy who is not on TRT should

test at his highest, then why would a guy who is on TRT not also want to test

when he is at his highest?

August 11, 2009

Because of all them Dr.'s out there that are not up on reading labs for

Testosterone if your seeing Dr. , Dr. no or Dr. Shippen even Dr. Gorden

they will look at your labs and ask you when you took your meds. Then they know

if your to high or to low. When your not on TRT you need your Testosterone

checked at it's highest levels first thing in the morning your levels can fall a

good 200 to 300 points by bedtime.

Now on Gels if you do your labs after putting on the gel and you get some of the

gel on the spot they take your blood it will Spike up your labs very dam high

and upset your Dr. he then will lower or even take you off it. If you put on

the gel and don't get any gel on the spot that the blood is taken from but you

do the labs in less then 4 to 6 hrs your levels are very high in this time frame

and a Dr. not knowing this will lower your dose and your will crash.

Now on shots if you do a shot and then do your labs in less then 4 days your

levels are very high at this time and a Dr. not in the know will lower you dose

and your will crash. This is way I tell men do your labs before you do your Gel

after a good shower even the gel from the day before can spike up your labs if

it's on the spot they take the blood.

Some good Dr.'s do labs both ways they want to see how high you peak at and then

how low you fall before the next dose. On shots this peak would be on the 4th

day. And at it's lowest on the next day of your shot.

If doing HCG and This good to add to TRT it keeps ones testis working and all

the LH and FSH cells in your body and your mind working. But doing labs one

needs to stop taking HCG a week before them or they will make your labs look

higher then they are.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: rverbill <rverbill@...>

> Subject: Re: Latest blood test results confusing

>

> Date: Tuesday, August 11, 2009, 8:19 AM

>

> >

>

> > The right way to do labs on gels is to get up and do a

> good shower to get all the gel off your skin the go do your

> labs before you put on the gels.

> > Co-Moderator

> > Phil

>

> Phil, this part confuses me. I have always read that the

> best time to have blood drawn is as early in the morning as

> possible so that you are testing at peak T levels. This is

> for men who are not on TRT. So if a guy who is not on TRT

> should test at his highest, then why would a guy who is on

> TRT not also want to test when he is at his highest?

>

> ------------------------------------

>

August 11, 2009

OK, I can understand what you are saying, as I have seen many posts where a guy

will say that his doctor, even an endo, will say that he is fine if his total T

is 260 in a range of 250-1100. However, my doctor told me that my original 304

was way too low and that I should be at least 500 and he wasn't concerned when I

was at 862 either. The reason that I dropped my dose from 10 gm to 7.5 gm was

because I thought it might be causing my high E2. Dr. Crisler has said that

often high E2 is caused by T being too high for a particular person. My doctor

agreed to me trying this. Being that my doctor seems to know more than what most

seem to know, I see no reason not to test 4 hours after application. By the way,

blood is always drawn from my right arm, so on a test day, I don't even use any

gel on my right shoulder. I also always use a nitrile glove on my application

hand, so there isn't even any on my right hand.

> > >

> >

> > > The right way to do labs on gels is to get up and do a

> > good shower to get all the gel off your skin the go do your

> > labs before you put on the gels.

> > > Co-Moderator

> > > Phil

> >

> > Phil, this part confuses me. I have always read that the

> > best time to have blood drawn is as early in the morning as

> > possible so that you are testing at peak T levels. This is

> > for men who are not on TRT. So if a guy who is not on TRT

> > should test at his highest, then why would a guy who is on

> > TRT not also want to test when he is at his highest?

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

August 11, 2009

That's great and Dr. is right in my case going down on my does of

Testosterone I end up feeling off and get sore joints and muscles so for me it's

a small price to pay having to take Arimidex to keep my Estradiol down and

feeling great. I am doing so dam good I can't remember feeling this good for

the last 27 yrs. I just got back from my Dr.'s and he even said things are

looking better then ever.

I am losing weight going to the gym and walking everyday. Plus all of this

trying to jump the wife everyday she is now telling me to get a girl friend I

tell her sure that would be the end all of all ends. Women can't live with them

or with out them. They think they are to old to have sex.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: rverbill <rverbill@...>

> Subject: Re: Latest blood test results confusing

>

> Date: Tuesday, August 11, 2009, 10:38 AM

> OK, I can understand what you are

> saying, as I have seen many posts where a guy will say that

> his doctor, even an endo, will say that he is fine if his

> total T is 260 in a range of 250-1100. However, my doctor

> told me that my original 304 was way too low and that I

> should be at least 500 and he wasn't concerned when I was at

> 862 either. The reason that I dropped my dose from 10 gm to

> 7.5 gm was because I thought it might be causing my high E2.

> Dr. Crisler has said that often high E2 is caused by T being

> too high for a particular person. My doctor agreed to me

> trying this. Being that my doctor seems to know more than

> what most seem to know, I see no reason not to test 4 hours

> after application. By the way, blood is always drawn from my

> right arm, so on a test day, I don't even use any gel on my

> right shoulder. I also always use a nitrile glove on my

> application hand, so there isn't even any on my right hand.

>

> > > >

> > >

> > > > The right way to do labs on gels is to get

> up and do a

> > > good shower to get all the gel off your skin the

> go do your

> > > labs before you put on the gels.

> > > > Co-Moderator

> > > > Phil

> > >

> > > Phil, this part confuses me. I have always read

> that the

> > > best time to have blood drawn is as early in the

> morning as

> > > possible so that you are testing at peak T

> levels. This is

> > > for men who are not on TRT. So if a guy who is

> not on TRT

> > > should test at his highest, then why would a guy

> who is on

> > > TRT not also want to test when he is at his

> highest?

> > >

> > > ------------------------------------

> > >

August 11, 2009

Hey Phil,

Good to hear that you were cleared by your cardiologist. Are you back on the

HRT?

You mentioned that you have joint & muscle pain when your T dose is lowered.

Right now my total T is at 388 (i'm 49). I have a lot of problems with

tendonitis in my joints. I'm seeing a urologist in Sept. for HRT, HOPEFULLY. Do

you think the tendonitis may be from such a low T and that it will at least

lessen if i'm on HRT?

Thanks, Jim

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > The right way to do labs on gels is to get

> > up and do a

> > > > good shower to get all the gel off your skin the

> > go do your

> > > > labs before you put on the gels.

> > > > > Co-Moderator

> > > > > Phil

> > > >

> > > > Phil, this part confuses me. I have always read

> > that the

> > > > best time to have blood drawn is as early in the

> > morning as

> > > > possible so that you are testing at peak T

> > levels. This is

> > > > for men who are not on TRT. So if a guy who is

> > not on TRT

> > > > should test at his highest, then why would a guy

> > who is on

> > > > TRT not also want to test when he is at his

> > highest?

> > > >

> > > > ------------------------------------

> > > >

August 11, 2009

Hi Jim,

I sure do feel any joint and muscle pain when someone has low levels of

Testosterone are do to the low levels. I am back on HRT been back on it 6

months and in the last few weeks my pain is about gone I am now walking 30 min's

a day and yesterday I worked out hard in the weight room doing 3 sets of each

machine with a good load. I did this for 90 mins and this morning I feel fine

no pain Thank God. I don't like Endo's or Uro's for treating low T so I hope

you found a good one that treats a lot of men. Most don't and all they know is

what the drug reps tell them. Go to Dr. 's site www.allthingsmale.com and

read TRT: A Recipe for Success he puts this on his site free for us and the

Dr.'s we see. In this are labs you need and why don't go on TRT with out

finding out why your low.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: virtuosa150 <virtuosa150@...>

> Subject: Re: Latest blood test results confusing

>

> Date: Tuesday, August 11, 2009, 1:56 PM

> Hey Phil,

>

> Good to hear that you were cleared by your cardiologist.

> Are you back on the HRT?

>

> You mentioned that you have joint & muscle pain when

> your T dose is lowered. Right now my total T is at 388 (i'm

> 49). I have a lot of problems with tendonitis in my joints.

> I'm seeing a urologist in Sept. for HRT, HOPEFULLY. Do you

> think the tendonitis may be from such a low T and that it

> will at least lessen if i'm on HRT?

>

> Thanks, Jim

>

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > The right way to do labs on gels

> is to get

> > > up and do a

> > > > > good shower to get all the gel off your

> skin the

> > > go do your

> > > > > labs before you put on the gels.

> > > > > > Co-Moderator

> > > > > > Phil

> > > > >

> > > > > Phil, this part confuses me. I have

> always read

> > > that the

> > > > > best time to have blood drawn is as

> early in the

> > > morning as

> > > > > possible so that you are testing at

> peak T

> > > levels. This is

> > > > > for men who are not on TRT. So if a guy

> who is

> > > not on TRT

> > > > > should test at his highest, then why

> would a guy

> > > who is on

> > > > > TRT not also want to test when he is at

> his

> > > highest?

> > > > >

> > > > > ------------------------------------

> > > > >

August 13, 2009

On Mon, 10 Aug 2009 16:15:24 -0000, you wrote:

>I started having the symptoms of low T almost 2 years ago, but it took me

several months to figure out what it might be. My doctor agreed and tested my

total T, which was at 304 ng/dl. He thought it should be at least 500, even at

my age of 63 at the time and started me on 5 gm of Androgel. Unfortunately, he

didn't test for anything else at the time, but that is over and done now.

>

>I did not absorb the Androgel well at all and my total T was at 277 after 6

months, 2 of those at a dose of 7.5 gm. I then read that Testim absorbed better

than Androgel and he switched me to 10 gm of Testim. Four months later, my total

T was at 644 and then 2 months after that it was at 862 (250-1100 for all tests

at Quest) The problem is that my E2 slowly rose over time from 25.6 after 2

months on Androgel to 57.2 (<20-56) when my total T was at 862. My free T also

rose to 179 (35-155) and my DHT rose to 132 (25-75). My depression was gone, but

I still had some ED and lower libido than just a year or 2 earlier.

>

>I was also taking 25 mg of DHEA daily and thought that it was the reason for

the high E2, as DHEA converts to E2 many times in men. I made the following

changes:

>

>Stopped DHEA

>Lowered Testim from 10 gm to 7.5 gm

>Increased saw palmetto from 320 mg to 480 mg daily

>Started to take 1 Indolplex DIM daily

>Started to take small amount of supplemental soy isoflavones daily, as some

articles and animal studies that I have read say that they take up the estrogen

receptor sites and lower E2.

>

>So 2 months after starting this I had another set of blood tests. Here are the

results and change from 2 months ago.

>

>Total T – 862 to 268 (250-1100)

>Free T – 179 to 50 (35-155)

>E2 – 57.2 to <20 (<20-56)

>DHT – 132 to 76 (25-75)

>DHEA-S – 232 to (don't have results yet)

>

>My ED has come back some. Some mornings I have good morning erections and

others nothing. My dreams have also come to a halt.

>

>I believe that all tests were at the same labs, which is local hospital for E2

and Quest for all others. I will ask the doctor when I see him tomorrow.

>

>Any thoughts would be appreciated.

First your E2 is way to high and should be more like half that level -

in the 20 to 30 range and closer to 20.

Soy is much like E2. Drop it. My own belief is saw palmetto also

messes with hormones and if you are on TRT and dealing with TRT it

just confuses things and presents more ways to mess things up. if you

get your E2 right you won't need saw palmetto. Higher E2 swells the

prostate. Getting it down will do the reverse.

You need to cut back you T dosing some. If you got closer to 650-700

your DHT, Free T and E2 should drop accordingly.

You might consider injections over gels. It's easier to tweak dosing

with injections.

Your doctor should have ordered a prolactin test before starting you

on TRT (as well as others) but the prolactin is very important. A

significant number of low T guys have BENIGN pituitary tumors that

increase prolactin which drives down T. This can be corrected with

medicine in most cases. And then TRT is unnecessary. Natural T

production is far superior to TRT in countless ways. Not the least of

which is fertility.

Lot's of us who have done gels found they stopped absorbing over time.

The application areas grow hair and the skin thickens and absorbtion

drops. And despite what the literature says E2 climbs with gels for

lots of us.

Well that's a start . . .

August 13, 2009

On Tue, 11 Aug 2009 14:38:26 -0000, you wrote:

>OK, I can understand what you are saying, as I have seen many posts where a guy