Re: HCG questions

[Guest guest]

I have been using HCG (*Preganol*/Novarel) for over a year to augment my TRT

and have only experienced some acne issues. My doctor on her first

attempt prescribed my Ovidrel by mistake, the issue with it is it only

comes in 250/500 iu (insulin units) pre-filled syringes this is the volume

measurement not the dose not the " International Unit " (An *IU* is a

standardized *measure* of biological activity or potency) What I'm trying to

say is the Ovidrel 250= 250iu=.25ml but the dose is 10,000 IU (international

units) per .25ml(250iu) this is dosed for female fertility treatment and

not for TRT. Ovidrel is also much more expensive than Novarel/*Preganol* . I

find Preganol to work out better because it can be kept refrigerated for use

for two months as apposed to the one month you get with Novarel. I have

never heard of Luveris?

What else are you using as TRT? What are your numbers and reference ranges?

Maybe you are pushing your number to high or elevating your E2 levels

causing these symptoms.

I take the HCG on the last two days before my weekly shot, I also take

Arimidex every other day to control E2. When I was on Gel I took the HCG

every 3rd day but I have never witnessed any side affects other than the

acne now and then.

On 7/30/07, randogbert <randogbert@...> wrote:

>

> I pulled these questions out of a previous post of mine that weren't

> addressed and I'd really like some insight if anyone knows...

>

> Anyone else get headaches on HCG???

>

Any other side-effects?

>

> I took the HCG (Novarel) - sub-Q. I'm wondering if shooting it in the

> muscle instead might have avoided the headaches (slower absorption).

>

> Anyone try Ovidrel recumbent hcg (rHCG)?

>

> They have a recumbant LH now (Luveris). Is anybody using this to be

> their LH instead of using HCG to MIMIC LH??? I don't get it, unless

> the cost is through the roof.

>

> I've read men don't produce HCG, but then I've also read we do at

> puberty. Which is it?

>

> I recently started trialing Novarel again and did 250iu sub-Q

> followed by another shot 4 days later. Headaches came back. Joint

> pain ensued *and* my regular wood from the TRT completely

> disappeared. Sleep is also disrupted. It's almost as if it *counters*

> my TRT... strange. It comes on strong the day after my shot and

> slowly subsides until my next one. Comments?

>

> Randy

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Go to www.allthingsmale.com and read TRT: A recipe for Success and the HCG

update then anything more you need just ask.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: rmpalp <motor815@...>

> Subject: HCG questions

>

> Date: Saturday, October 18, 2008, 11:18 AM

> I am considering HCG with my TRT. I currently do 7.5g daily

> of

> Androgel, and am concerned about testiculat atrophy. I have

> alot of

> questions about how to take it, where to get it, methods to

> inject,

> dosage etc.? Anything you guys can help with would be

> great.

>

> thanks in advance

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

You might take a look at these:

http://www.allthingsmale.com/word_docs/TRT.doc

http://www.allthingsmale.com/word_docs/HCGupdate.doc

________________________________

From: drew99982 <no_reply >

Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2009 3:19:40 PM

Subject: HCG questions

Dr prescribed me HCG. Ive been on testim and my #'s are good (around 950)

Sometimes my testicls are tight..sometimes they are not

my Dr prescribed HCG 1500 iu . He told me to take 3 injections the first week of

each month. Not sure if those three would add up to 1500 or if they would be

1500 each...ill likely find out when i get the medicine and instructions.

dr told me for the first week of a month to take the HCG and not take any T.

Then weeks 2,3,and 4 to go back on the T every night. Is this normal protocal?

Also...what are the benefits of HCG? are there any besides preventing testicular

shrinkage?

[Guest guest]

Hi,

not quite " normal protocol " but I like the idea.

3 weeks " on " ... then 1 week you skip your testim gel and let the numbers fall 1

week and try and stimulate the testes with some hcg (I'd bet it'll be

500-500-500... 3 doses of 1500 units is a LOT)

I'm a shot guy and I'm supposed to do 2 shots of 250iu on days 5 and 6 (last 2

days before my weekly test shot)... need to go do mine in a bit...

so the idea is kinda sorta the same... give you SOME stimulation and SOME

supplementation.

depending on how well you react to the HCG you MAY (or may not, depends) want to

schedule that week to coincide with your wife's period... so you'll tend to be

horny when she tends to be horny...

I know I do my shot on wed-pm/thurs-am so I'm a Super Sex God from Friday night

through Sunday night... then it's back to work....

>

>

> Dr prescribed me HCG. Ive been on testim and my #'s are good (around 950)

>

> Sometimes my testicls are tight..sometimes they are not

>

> my Dr prescribed HCG 1500 iu . He told me to take 3 injections the first week

of each month. Not sure if those three would add up to 1500 or if they would be

1500 each...ill likely find out when i get the medicine and instructions.

>

> dr told me for the first week of a month to take the HCG and not take any T.

Then weeks 2,3,and 4 to go back on the T every night. Is this normal protocal?

>

> Also...what are the benefits of HCG? are there any besides preventing

testicular shrinkage?

>

[Guest guest]

No your Dr. is way off on this you should do a 250 IU shot every 3 days if your

testis work good they will make T. Also they will get bigger being on T they

stop working. Go to www.allthingsmale.com and read the HCG update and TRT: A

Recipe for Success Dr. puts this out there free for you and your Dr. here

is what he told my Dr. to get me on it.

==========================================================================

He probably feels that since you suffer primary hypogonadism (I am guessing)

there is no use in adding HCG to your protocol. There are several reasons why

this is not so. First, you have not lost all Leydig cells, so any HCG you take

will stimulate those who still function to produce endogenous testosterone.

This will support testicular size. We should not ignore this aesthetic

consideration.

Next, if he reads my work, he will learn that HPTA-suppressed (as all TRT

patients are to some extent) also suffer decreased pregenenolone levels, which

is the first step after CHOL in all three hormonal pathways which begin with

CHOL. HCG increases pregnenolone production, and therefore restores a more

natural balance of our hormones.

Next, nearly all TRT patients who add in HCG to their regimens report an

increased sense of well-being and also libido. These are genuine quality of life

issues.

Finally, I just instinctively do not want all those LH receptors (including

those we have yet to discover and appreciate) unstimulated.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: drew99982 <no_reply >

> Subject: HCG questions

>

> Date: Tuesday, April 7, 2009, 4:19 PM

> Dr prescribed me HCG. Ive been on testim and my #'s are

> good (around 950)

>

> Sometimes my testicls are tight..sometimes they are not

>

> my Dr prescribed HCG 1500 iu . He told me to take 3

> injections the first week of each month. Not sure if those

> three would add up to 1500 or if they would be 1500

> each...ill likely find out when i get the medicine and

> instructions.

>

> dr told me for the first week of a month to take the HCG

> and not take any T. Then weeks 2,3,and 4 to go back on the T

> every night. Is this normal protocal?

>

> Also...what are the benefits of HCG? are there any besides

> preventing testicular shrinkage?

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

When I read the stuff you guys write about combining HCG with TRT, it makes

me a bit angry.

It's not that I think it a bad idea at all. It's a great one, providing

overdose is not achieved!

It is that outside of the USA, everyone is stuck with TRT, whether they are

primary, or secondary.

Shrinking balls are commonplace amongst secondary guys on TRT of course.

Headaches often accompany this mis-application of Testosterone therapy.

It's one reason I think there ought to be a global drug approval body.

If anyone is on Facebook and wants to see what I am doing to raise awareness

about our condition, please look me up and request friendship.

Thanks,

Nick

Nick O'Hara

Author, The Testosterone Deficiency Centre (www.androids.org.uk)

Associate Editor The Testicular Cancer Resource Center (tcrc.acor.org)

From: [mailto: ]

On Behalf Of philip georgian

Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2009 8:14 PM

Subject: Re: HCG questions

No your Dr. is way off on this you should do a 250 IU shot every 3 days if

your testis work good they will make T. Also they will get bigger being on T

they stop working. Go to www.allthingsmale.com and read the HCG update and

TRT: A Recipe for Success Dr. puts this out there free for you and your

Dr. here is what he told my Dr. to get me on it.

==========================================================================

He probably feels that since you suffer primary hypogonadism (I am guessing)

there is no use in adding HCG to your protocol. There are several reasons

why this is not so. First, you have not lost all Leydig cells, so any HCG

you take will stimulate those who still function to produce endogenous

testosterone.

This will support testicular size. We should not ignore this aesthetic

consideration.

Next, if he reads my work, he will learn that HPTA-suppressed (as all TRT

patients are to some extent) also suffer decreased pregenenolone levels,

which is the first step after CHOL in all three hormonal pathways which

begin with CHOL. HCG increases pregnenolone production, and therefore

restores a more natural balance of our hormones.

Next, nearly all TRT patients who add in HCG to their regimens report an

increased sense of well-being and also libido. These are genuine quality of

life issues.

Finally, I just instinctively do not want all those LH receptors (including

those we have yet to discover and appreciate) unstimulated.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: drew99982 <no_reply

<mailto:no_reply%40> >

> Subject: HCG questions

> <mailto: %40>

> Date: Tuesday, April 7, 2009, 4:19 PM

> Dr prescribed me HCG. Ive been on testim and my #'s are

> good (around 950)

>

> Sometimes my testicls are tight..sometimes they are not

>

> my Dr prescribed HCG 1500 iu . He told me to take 3

> injections the first week of each month. Not sure if those

> three would add up to 1500 or if they would be 1500

> each...ill likely find out when i get the medicine and

> instructions.

>

> dr told me for the first week of a month to take the HCG

> and not take any T. Then weeks 2,3,and 4 to go back on the T

> every night. Is this normal protocal?

>

> Also...what are the benefits of HCG? are there any besides

> preventing testicular shrinkage?

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Nick O'Hara wrote:

> When I read the stuff you guys write about combining HCG with TRT, it makes

> me a bit angry.

They buy some HCG, import some, or get your government to change. The

personal choice over one's own body should never be decided by

government, committees, bureaucrats, or anyone else. There should be no

legal limits on the drugs, supplements, foods, and anything else you

want OR need for health, fitness, cognitive enhancement, bio-technical

enhancement (transhumanism), or just plain joi-de-vive. No one should

be your master.

> It's not that I think it a bad idea at all. It's a great one, providing

> overdose is not achieved!

That should be a personal choice as standard ranges are determined by

groups with personal profit motives and influence. In my case, I pay

for my one tests instead of having insurance do it so I can decide when

to test and make adjustments to T and HCG in the 2-3 weeks before the

test so that my results will be in a range my doctor is comfortable

with. As Testosterone levels have dropped in the USA due to estrogen

mimics and other contaminates, the testosterone lab references ranges

for " normal " have dropped as well. I believe that the optimum healthy

levels is now above the top end of the lab reference range. The number

on labs now for the high in the USA is about 800ish ng/ml. It used to

be close to 1100 ng/ml. I think between 800 and 1100 ng/ml is optimum

but I want my doctor to see 600-700 on the labs I provide him.

> It is that outside of the USA, everyone is stuck with TRT, whether they are

> primary, or secondary.

Not true. I have ordered HGH from India. I suspect you could move

there, more to some other place with greater freedomes, move to the USA,

or import your own.

> Shrinking balls are commonplace amongst secondary guys on TRT of course.

That is an issue. However, more global regulation is cutting off your

head to because you don't like your nose.

> Headaches often accompany this mis-application of Testosterone therapy.

Then do something else.

> It's one reason I think there ought to be a global drug approval body.

Bsstttt. Wrong. Unless you can create competing private certification

organizations that also compete with each other, then this is a no-go.

The last thing we need is some global ivory tower bigwigs being told

what to approve by payola under the table and being influenced directly

by founding sources and lobbyist influenced requirements.

--

Steve - dudescholar4@...

Take World's Smallest Political Quiz at

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html

" If a thousand old beliefs were ruined on our march

to truth we must still march on. " --Stopford

[Guest guest]

>

> When I read the stuff you guys write about combining HCG with TRT, it makes

> me a bit angry.

>

> It's not that I think it a bad idea at all. It's a great one, providing

> overdose is not achieved!

>

> It is that outside of the USA, everyone is stuck with TRT, whether they are

> primary, or secondary.

Nick, that's simply not true. HCG is widely prescribed in the UK for guys who

are secondary, myself included. Granted, it all depends on your doctor and your

health authority, but to say that we're all stuck with TRT is simply not true.

[Guest guest]

Colin,

Thanks for this. I am amazed to learn HCG is being prescribed for Hypo

alone. I know it can be obtained by those seeking a child, but as far as I

knew, HCG was not being prescribed by NHS GPs. I'd be delighted to learn

more so I can publish good info on my website.

Could you email me off list please.

Many thanks

Nick

Nick O'Hara

Author, The Testosterone Deficiency Centre (www.androids.org.uk)

Associate Editor The Testicular Cancer Resource Center (tcrc.acor.org)

From: [mailto: ]

On Behalf Of colinpaulturner

Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 12:41 AM

Subject: Re: HCG questions

>

> When I read the stuff you guys write about combining HCG with TRT, it

makes

> me a bit angry.

>

> It's not that I think it a bad idea at all. It's a great one, providing

> overdose is not achieved!

>

> It is that outside of the USA, everyone is stuck with TRT, whether they

are

> primary, or secondary.

Nick, that's simply not true. HCG is widely prescribed in the UK for guys

who are secondary, myself included. Granted, it all depends on your doctor

and your health authority, but to say that we're all stuck with TRT is

simply not true.

[Guest guest]

Steve,

Thanks for your suggestions. I am not in need of HCG as I have no balls to

stimulate. If you knew a little more about me, you would know I have been

working for many years in this area and don't need any help with my therapy.

Although in the US it is commonplace to self-treat, it is not so in the UK.

I serve the people outside the USA as best I can with as much up to date

info as I can get.

I personally don't think it is right that individuals have to pay from their

own pocket for meds that ought to be standard prescription for Seconadary.

Places like india, Thailand and the rest, where HCG is sold, over the

counter, do not necessarily provide genuine products. Even if they do, why

should I go " round the back " to get medical help? It smacks of anarchy to

me, when we need to get the system right and not just think about number 1.

I find your statement about correct levels to be interesting and, if I may

say a bit cavalier. I fully understand where the doctors and labs have got

it wrong, but feel that a less than scientific approach to what is the

correct level, to be fraught with danger of aromatization and E2 control.

I would never suggest to someone where their T levels should sit in the

range. As far as I am concerned, giving a target level in the upper quartile

is as irresponsible as it is to set the crazy " normal " range. There are

tools to be used to establish the correct levels in an individual and, in my

opinion, they should be used.

So far as Global Drug approval is concerned, perhaps you'd like to consider

how much better things would be if drug companies filed for approval one

time for one drug, with no input from lobbyists, payolas or any other form

of corruption. It is because we have individual drug controls that these

things exist now. It is possible to get corruption out of the way, but not

with your approach.

Nick

Nick O'Hara

Author, The Testosterone Deficiency Centre (www.androids.org.uk)

Associate Editor The Testicular Cancer Resource Center (tcrc.acor.org)

From: [mailto: ]

On Behalf Of Steve

Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2009 10:23 PM

Subject: Re: HCG questions

Nick O'Hara wrote:

> When I read the stuff you guys write about combining HCG with TRT, it

makes

> me a bit angry.

They buy some HCG, import some, or get your government to change. The

personal choice over one's own body should never be decided by

government, committees, bureaucrats, or anyone else. There should be no

legal limits on the drugs, supplements, foods, and anything else you

want OR need for health, fitness, cognitive enhancement, bio-technical

enhancement (transhumanism), or just plain joi-de-vive. No one should

be your master.

> It's not that I think it a bad idea at all. It's a great one, providing

> overdose is not achieved!

That should be a personal choice as standard ranges are determined by

groups with personal profit motives and influence. In my case, I pay

for my one tests instead of having insurance do it so I can decide when

to test and make adjustments to T and HCG in the 2-3 weeks before the

test so that my results will be in a range my doctor is comfortable

with. As Testosterone levels have dropped in the USA due to estrogen

mimics and other contaminates, the testosterone lab references ranges

for " normal " have dropped as well. I believe that the optimum healthy

levels is now above the top end of the lab reference range. The number

on labs now for the high in the USA is about 800ish ng/ml. It used to

be close to 1100 ng/ml. I think between 800 and 1100 ng/ml is optimum

but I want my doctor to see 600-700 on the labs I provide him.

> It is that outside of the USA, everyone is stuck with TRT, whether they

are

> primary, or secondary.

Not true. I have ordered HGH from India. I suspect you could move

there, more to some other place with greater freedomes, move to the USA,

or import your own.

> Shrinking balls are commonplace amongst secondary guys on TRT of course.

That is an issue. However, more global regulation is cutting off your

head to because you don't like your nose.

> Headaches often accompany this mis-application of Testosterone therapy.

Then do something else.

> It's one reason I think there ought to be a global drug approval body.

Bsstttt. Wrong. Unless you can create competing private certification

organizations that also compete with each other, then this is a no-go.

The last thing we need is some global ivory tower bigwigs being told

what to approve by payola under the table and being influenced directly

by founding sources and lobbyist influenced requirements.

--

Steve - dudescholar4@... <mailto:dudescholar4%40basicmail.net>

Take World's Smallest Political Quiz at

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html

" If a thousand old beliefs were ruined on our march

to truth we must still march on. " --Stopford

[Guest guest]

Nick O'Hara wrote:

> Steve,

>

>

>

> Thanks for your suggestions. I am not in need of HCG as I have no balls to

> stimulate. If you knew a little more about me, you would know I have been

> working for many years in this area and don't need any help with my therapy.

Nick, having or not having testicles was not the ultimate reason I

started HGH therapy. LH receptors (which HGH stimulates) may be found

in other places besides leydig cells. Being on TRT usually shuts down

LH production and those cells will not receive the stimulation they

ought to, regardless of the amount of T used. I have had no size change

since starting HCG over a year ago but I have an improved sense of well

being from the HGH injections, even though it doesn't appear to increase

testosterone production for me.

> Although in the US it is commonplace to self-treat, it is not so in the UK.

>

> I serve the people outside the USA as best I can with as much up to date

> info as I can get.

>

>

>

> I personally don't think it is right that individuals have to pay from their

> own pocket for meds that ought to be standard prescription for Seconadary.

I'm a libertarian. I don't think it's right to take from one group or

individual by force to provide services to another. There are market

solutions that can work. See the Cato institute for some ideas.

http://www.cato.org/ I'm glad as hell I don't suffer under the UK

system while I still have a lot of problems with the US system.

> Places like india, Thailand and the rest, where HCG is sold, over the

> counter, do not necessarily provide genuine products. Even if they do, why

> should I go " round the back " to get medical help? It smacks of anarchy to

> me, when we need to get the system right and not just think about number 1.

I like anarchy, organized anarchy. <grin> I do what I have to do.

While I have a prescription in the US for HGH, no US online pharmacy or

any local pharmacy has had HGH in stock for the past 6 months. I

finally found a compounding pharmacy that does have some but meanwhile I

got some from India and it works quite well. I had to buy the dilutant

and sterile sealed containers elsewhere to mix the stuff correctly, but

work it does. In fact, I get a lot of my drugs internationally even

though I have insurance because for many drugs, the co-pay out of pocket

expense is much greater than an international purchase.

> I find your statement about correct levels to be interesting and, if I may

> say a bit cavalier. I fully understand where the doctors and labs have got

> it wrong, but feel that a less than scientific approach to what is the

> correct level, to be fraught with danger of aromatization and E2 control.

One can test. My E2 level runs just under the 20 I want it to be at. I

don't do patches since that elevated it to the top end of the lab

reference range. My interest is not just in high levels, but to achieve

the high levels a youthful hunter gathered eating 100% organic would

have reached 20,000 years ago.

> I would never suggest to someone where their T levels should sit in the

> range. As far as I am concerned, giving a target level in the upper quartile

> is as irresponsible as it is to set the crazy " normal " range. There are

> tools to be used to establish the correct levels in an individual and, in my

> opinion, they should be used.

I'm a life-extensionists. My goal is youthful healthy hormone levels

which I estimate to be between 20-30 years old. Being in the upper end

of the range is my target and has some good research to back it up.

High T levels decrease the likelihood of aggressive prostate cancer

while not having any effect on non-aggressive prostate cancer. In fact,

it only E2 one has to worry about.

Male Hormone Restoration

http://www.lef.org/protocols/male_reproductive/male_hormone_restoration_01.htm

" The Life Extension Foundation recommends that men strive for a free

testosterone level that is in the upper one-third range for men aged 21

to 49 years "

LE’s Optimal Range for total T is 500–827 ng/dL

LE's Optimal Range for Free T is 6.8-25.1 pg/mL (age 20-49).

http://www.lef.org/protocols/appendix/blood_testing_05.htm

> So far as Global Drug approval is concerned, perhaps you'd like to consider

> how much better things would be if drug companies filed for approval one

> time for one drug, with no input from lobbyists, payolas or any other form

> of corruption. It is because we have individual drug controls that these

> things exist now. It is possible to get corruption out of the way, but not

> with your approach.

I don't like drug controls at all. I would rather have free market

options that would certify drugs and I could use their recommendations,

or not, as I desire. While companies should be legally responsible for

drugs that don't preform or cause injury (and you haven't signed a

release), I don't think that drugs should be controlled or limited by

any government entity, in the US or globally. (In the US, companies

that sell drugs and vaccines that don't preform or cause injury have

laws that seriously limit their liability - that shouldn't be so.)

So, I don't think there should be an " approval " process but one where

companies can market their drugs with no certification (most people

wouldn't take those but some might and we would learn something) or they

could be submitted to private certification businesses that compete with

each other on quality and accuracy and people could choose to use or not

use drugs that were certified by their business of choice. One's

private insurance company would have a say on certification as well.

Steve

> Nick

>

>

>

> Nick O'Hara

>

> Author, The Testosterone Deficiency Centre (www.androids.org.uk)

>

> Associate Editor The Testicular Cancer Resource Center (tcrc.acor.org)

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> From: [mailto: ]

> On Behalf Of Steve

> Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2009 10:23 PM

>

> Subject: Re: HCG questions

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Nick O'Hara wrote:

>> When I read the stuff you guys write about combining HCG with TRT, it

> makes

>> me a bit angry.

>

> They buy some HCG, import some, or get your government to change. The

> personal choice over one's own body should never be decided by

> government, committees, bureaucrats, or anyone else. There should be no

> legal limits on the drugs, supplements, foods, and anything else you

> want OR need for health, fitness, cognitive enhancement, bio-technical

> enhancement (transhumanism), or just plain joi-de-vive. No one should

> be your master.

>

>> It's not that I think it a bad idea at all. It's a great one, providing

>> overdose is not achieved!

>

> That should be a personal choice as standard ranges are determined by

> groups with personal profit motives and influence. In my case, I pay

> for my one tests instead of having insurance do it so I can decide when

> to test and make adjustments to T and HCG in the 2-3 weeks before the

> test so that my results will be in a range my doctor is comfortable

> with. As Testosterone levels have dropped in the USA due to estrogen

> mimics and other contaminates, the testosterone lab references ranges

> for " normal " have dropped as well. I believe that the optimum healthy

> levels is now above the top end of the lab reference range. The number

> on labs now for the high in the USA is about 800ish ng/ml. It used to

> be close to 1100 ng/ml. I think between 800 and 1100 ng/ml is optimum

> but I want my doctor to see 600-700 on the labs I provide him.

>

>> It is that outside of the USA, everyone is stuck with TRT, whether they

> are

>> primary, or secondary.

>

> Not true. I have ordered HGH from India. I suspect you could move

> there, more to some other place with greater freedomes, move to the USA,

> or import your own.

>

>> Shrinking balls are commonplace amongst secondary guys on TRT of course.

>

> That is an issue. However, more global regulation is cutting off your

> head to because you don't like your nose.

>

>> Headaches often accompany this mis-application of Testosterone therapy.

>

> Then do something else.

>

>> It's one reason I think there ought to be a global drug approval body.

>

> Bsstttt. Wrong. Unless you can create competing private certification

> organizations that also compete with each other, then this is a no-go.

> The last thing we need is some global ivory tower bigwigs being told

> what to approve by payola under the table and being influenced directly

> by founding sources and lobbyist influenced requirements.

>

--

Steve - dudescholar4@...

Take World's Smallest Political Quiz at

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html

" If a thousand old beliefs were ruined on our march

to truth we must still march on. " --Stopford

[Guest guest]

Steve,

We could go into a long and involved discussion on the merits, or otherwise,

of our individual choices. You are fully entitled to live your life in the

way you choose of course. In many ways, I empathise with your approach. For

me, however, I do not seek the ideal of prehistoric man's Testosterone

levels. Maybe I'm concerned about regression.

In any event, I am attempting to change the way govt bodies look at this

problem over here and with a modicum of success.

In the next year, I believe it will alter more and more.

The reason I stand so firm on controls is, that for whatever evolutionary

reason, not everyone is blessed with the education or reasoning ability you,

or perhaps I, are blessed with. I see it when I deal with a proportion of

people over here. Their inclination is to look for as much of the drug as

they can get. They are wholly ignorant about their bodies, never mind the

intricacies of our hormones. Most have responsibilities, are out of work and

broke, so choices are limited to what the country provides. Imagine a load

of poorly educated men ramped to the max on Testosterone, HGH, HCG,

etc.....what then?

I have an American Dr pal in Thailand who ships all these drugs under

prescription.

He also got some 10% cream compounded for me in the US, which he is hoping

to replicate in Thailand for 20% of the US costs. The cream is great btw.

But, when I look at the Thais and understand how poor they are and how life

is just allowed to ebb away, because there is no decent medical care for

all, it kinda brings home the need for a global solution. That is what I

work for.

Cheers

Nick

Re: HCG questions

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Nick O'Hara wrote:

>> When I read the stuff you guys write about combining HCG with TRT, it

> makes

>> me a bit angry.

>

> They buy some HCG, import some, or get your government to change. The

> personal choice over one's own body should never be decided by

> government, committees, bureaucrats, or anyone else. There should be no

> legal limits on the drugs, supplements, foods, and anything else you

> want OR need for health, fitness, cognitive enhancement, bio-technical

> enhancement (transhumanism), or just plain joi-de-vive. No one should

> be your master.

>

>> It's not that I think it a bad idea at all. It's a great one, providing

>> overdose is not achieved!

>

> That should be a personal choice as standard ranges are determined by

> groups with personal profit motives and influence. In my case, I pay

> for my one tests instead of having insurance do it so I can decide when

> to test and make adjustments to T and HCG in the 2-3 weeks before the

> test so that my results will be in a range my doctor is comfortable

> with. As Testosterone levels have dropped in the USA due to estrogen

> mimics and other contaminates, the testosterone lab references ranges

> for " normal " have dropped as well. I believe that the optimum healthy

> levels is now above the top end of the lab reference range. The number

> on labs now for the high in the USA is about 800ish ng/ml. It used to

> be close to 1100 ng/ml. I think between 800 and 1100 ng/ml is optimum

> but I want my doctor to see 600-700 on the labs I provide him.

>

>> It is that outside of the USA, everyone is stuck with TRT, whether they

> are

>> primary, or secondary.

>

> Not true. I have ordered HGH from India. I suspect you could move

> there, more to some other place with greater freedomes, move to the USA,

> or import your own.

>

>> Shrinking balls are commonplace amongst secondary guys on TRT of course.

>

> That is an issue. However, more global regulation is cutting off your

> head to because you don't like your nose.

>

>> Headaches often accompany this mis-application of Testosterone therapy.

>

> Then do something else.

>

>> It's one reason I think there ought to be a global drug approval body.

>

> Bsstttt. Wrong. Unless you can create competing private certification

> organizations that also compete with each other, then this is a no-go.

> The last thing we need is some global ivory tower bigwigs being told

> what to approve by payola under the table and being influenced directly

> by founding sources and lobbyist influenced requirements.

>

--

Steve - dudescholar4@...

Take World's Smallest Political Quiz at

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html

" If a thousand old beliefs were ruined on our march

to truth we must still march on. " --Stopford

------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

With all of this talk regarding HCG, I'm curious what brand you guys are using. 

I'm having trouble obtaining Novarel locally, so am using Ovidrel.  Are any of

you still using Novarel?

 

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I started HCG in January, and have been using novarel.

Ray

[Guest guest]

Try a doctor with D.O. after their name. They are not deaf !

G

>

> >nope.. only blood sugar, and cholesterol, and a CBC. that's it. I could not

convince him to do anything else. And by the way.. the office call cost $100

bucks, and the blood work around $250.00 more, and I'm no further to knowing

what is wrong.

> >

> >Jon

>

> Do you have no insurance?

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I haven't seen xcaliber around since his Apr 13th reply. Is he gone?

~Xian