Re: Correcting low/normal testosterone? T 12, FSH 2.2, LH 3.7

[Guest guest]

Yep I can help you big time I am hypopituitary and need Cortef " HC " I take 30

mgs a day you have it backwards low levels of cortisol and using HC does not

lower Testosterone if your on Testosterone and doing to much of it it will

stress your Adrenals and you end up with low cortisol. You can read my Story at

my Thyroid forum and it's update also at this site read how I treated my Thyroid

and Adrenals. Your levels I can't say if they are Total or Free T do you live

in the USA if so then it's free.

You need to get your Testosterone levels up into the upper 1/3 of your labs

range and keep your Estradiol down to about 20 pg/ml high Estradiol takes away

any good the testosterone does.

http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewtopic.php?f=5 & t=9239

http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewtopic.php?f=5 & t=24

I am not sure what you need to know get back to me if you need more info.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: jrshannie <jrshannie@...>

> Subject: Correcting low/normal testosterone? T 12, FSH 2.2, LH

3.7

>

> Date: Monday, August 3, 2009, 1:03 PM

> Hey,

>

> Im new to this group and would be very grateful if somebody

> could help me out by answering my questions please.

>

> Im 22 years old, male, and have an underactive thyroid.

>

> I have had some tests done recently which reveal low/normal

> testosterone and Im wondering how I can correct this? sorry

> this is quite a long message, but I need to explain a bit

> about my background.

>

> Im currently taking 3 grains of Armour Thyroid for my

> hypothyroidism,  27.5mg Hydrocortisone and 50mg DHEA

> for adrenal fatigue (should come off the HC when my thyroid

> is optimum).

>

> My last tests were: (this was when I was on 35mg HC, 1.75

> grain of Armour and no DHEA)

>

> Testosterone 12 (7-30) .....Im not sure if this is free or

> total and Im not totally sure about the range

> FSH 2.2 (1.5 - 12.4)

> LH 3.7 (1.7 - 8.6)

> FT3 4.6 (2.8-6.5)

> FT4 11 (10-22)

> TSH 1.4 (0.3-3)

>

> As Im now on DHEA and 3 grains of Armour, Im expecting my

> next results to be better. The endo wont do these as he says

> Im normal (But I dont quite feel it). Im not getting FSH or

> LH done therefore, and the testosterone will be saliva

> instead of serum.

>

> I know hydrocortisone supresses testosterone, LH and FSH

> (or can do anyway) and I think this may be at least partly

> why my results were on the low side..that and a sub-optimal

> thyroid (apparently the FT3 should be top of range and FT4

> in the middle to be optimal).

>

> I managed to come down to 27.5mg HC from 35mg and found a

> increase in libido and erections (I think 35mg was too

> much), and when I lowered further to 22.5mg my voice got a

> little deeper, but unfortunately I think my adrenals couldnt

> cope and I was starting to get symptoms like light-headed

> upon standing, increased allergies, feeling cold and cold

> hands (cortisol helps thyroid get into the bodies tissues),

> so went back up to 27.5mg. My voice has now got a bit higher

> than it was at 22.5mg.

>

> So now Im looking to help my testosterone out a bit while I

> get my thyroid optimal and also I heard it strengthen the

> body so Im hoping it will help strengthen my adrenals. I

> don't know what would be good for this tho..could anybody

> tell me a bit about things to raise testosterone? Things Iv

> heard of are: testosterone cream, clomiphene and supplements

> like tribulus (Am i right in thinking there is only

> anecdotal evidence for this tho?).

>

> Any comments about anything Iv written would be greatly

> appreciated

>

> Thanks

> Jonny

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Phil,

Thanks for the reply,

I am pretty sure that HC does decrease testosterone, at least at the higher

doses.

Here's a quote:

" Glucocorticoid excess: Exogenous or endogenous (Cushing syndrome)

glucocorticoid excess can lead to hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. Direct

inhibition of testosterone secretion may also occur at the testicular level. "

Here's a link to where i found this:

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/118810-overview

I know that 27.5mg may not be glucocorticoid excess, but it just seems to

explain the slight voice change when coming down on HC, and also (forgot to

mention this before) a slight thickening/darkening in facial hair.

I just read you posts on realthyroidhelp and it looks like youve tried or are

trying lots of the things that I have/am. I guess the difference is that my

pituitary is working ok (as far as I know) and my thyroid is due to hashimoto's

rather than pituitary. Are you also on the NTH-Adrenals or NTH groups on ?

I forgot to mention that Im taking my temps daily and they average 36.85, but

are stable, so I feel that my thyroid still need improving, which should

increase testosterone at least a bit.

I am hopeful that testosterone will only be temporary and when Im off HC and

thyroid is optimal my body will be able to produce more healthy levels by

itself.

Oh and Im in the UK not the USA.

What Im really asking is about treatments like testosterone creams, clomiphene,

HCG and supplements like tribulus to see if you know more about them and what

you think of them with regards to treating low normal testosterone. And any

other treatments for that matter. And Im also interested in Maca which you

mentioned in you other post.

Sorry I seem to have written quite a lot lol

Thanks

Jonny

[Guest guest]

Jonny that's fine nothing is to long with one is sick and needing info.

I can tell you this if one has low Testosterone and his Corisol and Thyroid test

low this can cause low Testosterone and some Dr.'s like Dr. no believe

fixing this will bring levels of testosterone back up. You can read and post to

him at his new forum.

http://www.definitivemind.com/forums/index.php

You need to understand something about Taking Testosterone meds once your on

them it's rare you can stop and your HPTA will start up again this is the

messages sent to your Testis to make more Testosterone the LH and FSH. If your

not Secondary then your Testis don't work well enough to make Testosterone.

Most men and women I talk to that have low sex hormones and cortisol with

Thyroid have a Pituitary Problem. When your Dr. tested your LH and FSH levels

and they came back low. This says your Secondary unless your Estradiol E2

levels were to high I dought he tested them. And I don't know any men maybe one

that got off TRT and got there HPTA jumped started once you go on TRT it's for

life.

Taking HC or Cortef will not lower Testosterone if anything it helps the

Testosterone you taking to work better.

Read these links one is the best from Dr. Jefferies book " Safe Uses of

Cortisol " . In this you will see it's safe to use upto but not over 30 mgs of

HC.

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/safe-uses

More links.

http://www.geocities.com/chrisgjsbcglobal (DOT) net/Cortisol.html

In this link at the bottom is about the Pituitary and it's a FAQ dam good read.

http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewtopic.php?f=12 & t=256

Between Dr. M and this guy I got the help I needed after being sick and

not getting the right treatment for 23 yrs. I am not trying to do what your

doing I did it I am a success story.

Any form of TRT is good but doing things like Clomiphene and Tribulus are a road

to no end Clomiphene is not a good treatment for low T but some guys do well on

it it has bad sides. Tribulus never found anyone that did good on this and I

feel it's because most of what is sold out there is junk.

In this link are links about low Adrenal a FAQ's and Aldosterone levels where we

need Sea Salt.

http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewtopic.php?f=12 & t=256

I use Maca it helps keep my hormones leveled and works to keep my libido up even

increases my Ejaculate men on TRT don't have normal Ejaculate some have just a

drop this helps. I buy it by the pound and take one tsp full in some apple

sauce or with my yogurt I do take this morning and noon. I also take Zinc with

the ZMA I take this is great the testis need zinc and because zinc lowers copper

I take the ZMA at bed time and the copper at noon.

http://www.macaweb.com/products/maca.html

http://www.myvitanet.com/zmaanspre90c.html

http://www.myvitanet.com/cop100cnt2mg.html

I take a lot of supplements for my heart here is a list everything I take meds

and all. It's a cut and paste from Word did not come out to good but you can

stil read it.

=========================================================================

PHILIP’S MED’S

• Simvastatin(Zocor) 20 mg. bedtime for Cholestrol.

• Arimidex .25 mg. bed time every 24 hours for control of Estradiol.

• Aspirin 81 mg morning 1x/day.

• Alprazolam(Xanax) .25 mg. up to 1x at morning and bedtime.

• Atenolol 50 mg. 1x/day morning for heart beta-blocker cut in half 25 mgs.

• Isinopril 10 mg. 1x/day morning for BP cut in ¼’s 2.5 mgs.

• Triamterene/HCTZ 37.5/25 mgs. Every 3 days.

• Armour 4.5 grains 2 morning and one and a half at noon and one at dinner for

Thyroid.

• Potassium Chloride 20 mg. 1x/day morning. I stopped this not on a strong

water pill anymore.

• Testosterone .40ml. or 70 mgs shot every 3 days.

• HCG 400 IU’s shot the 2 days each in between the Testosterone shot.

• Celebrex 200 mgs. 2x/day morning and dinner.

• Cortef 5 mgs. 10 mgs morning, 5mgs at 9am, 10 mgs at 1pm and 5 mgs at 6pm.

Supplements

• Vit. A 10,000 IU’s 1x/day.

• Vit. E 400 IU’s 1x/day.

• Folacal Folinic Acid 800 mg. 1x/day

• Feosol Iron 45mgs 3x’s/day morning noon and dinner.

• Glucosamine HCI 1500 MGS. – Chondroitin Sulface 1200 mgs. 2x/day.

• Lovaza 1gm. 1x/day Fish Oil.

• TMG 750mg 1pm and 11pm 2 pills a day.

• Solary Super Bio C 2 x’s/day 1000 mgs. Total.

• l-Arginine and l-Orthinine 100 Capsules, 750 mg, Twinlab 1 at bedtime.

• NOW brand ZMA 800mgs 3 at bedtime.

• Copper 2mgs 1 at noon.

• Dr. Cranton's PrimeNutrients 3/day.

• Maca. 1 tsp in the moning and 1 tsp at noon.

• Biotics Bio-D-Mulsion Forte Vit. D 2000 IU's per drop I am doing 6 drops a

day.

• Iodoral Iodine ½ tab / day.

• I went with NOW brand for the following supplements do to a high levels on

a Homocysteine Cardiovascular and below normal level of Folate RBC labs.

• NAC N-Acetyl Cysteine, Selenium, Molybdenum - 600 mg.

• B-12 (Brain) Methylcobalamin - 5000 mcg lozenges.

• Coenzyme B Complex.

• P-5-P (Coenzyme B6) 50 mg.

• I am taking 800 mcg. Folacal for low Folate RBC.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: jrshannie <jrshannie@...>

> Subject: Re: Correcting low/normal testosterone? T 12, FSH 2.2,

LH 3.7

>

> Date: Tuesday, August 4, 2009, 4:10 AM

> Hi Phil,

>

> Thanks for the reply,

>

> I am pretty sure that HC does decrease testosterone, at

> least at the higher doses.

>

> Here's a quote:

> " Glucocorticoid excess: Exogenous or endogenous (Cushing

> syndrome) glucocorticoid excess can lead to hypogonadotropic

> hypogonadism. Direct inhibition of testosterone secretion

> may also occur at the testicular level. "

> Here's a link to where i found this:

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/118810-overview

>

> I know that 27.5mg may not be glucocorticoid excess, but it

> just seems to explain the slight voice change when coming

> down on HC, and also (forgot to mention this before) a

> slight thickening/darkening in facial hair.

>

> I just read you posts on realthyroidhelp and it looks like

> youve tried or are trying lots of the things that I have/am.

> I guess the difference is that my pituitary is working ok

> (as far as I know) and my thyroid is due to hashimoto's

> rather than pituitary. Are you also on the NTH-Adrenals or

> NTH groups on ?

>

> I forgot to mention that Im taking my temps daily and they

> average 36.85, but are stable, so I feel that my thyroid

> still need improving, which should increase testosterone at

> least a bit.

>

> I am hopeful that testosterone will only be temporary and

> when Im off HC and thyroid is optimal my body will be able

> to produce more healthy levels by itself.

>

> Oh and Im in the UK not the USA.

>

> What Im really asking is about treatments like testosterone

> creams, clomiphene, HCG and supplements like tribulus to see

> if you know more about them and what you think of them with

> regards to treating low normal testosterone. And any other

> treatments for that matter. And Im also interested in Maca

> which you mentioned in you other post.

>

> Sorry I seem to have written quite a lot lol

>

> Thanks

> Jonny

>

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

I don't like the idea of being on TRT for life so I think Ill leave the

testosterone creams then.

Could you tell me why you don't like clomiphene? I was thinking that it will

increase LH and so there is no risk of testes being suppressed permenantly?

Is there anything I can take then temporarily while (hopefully) my thyroid get

optimal and can then make the testes produce better levels of testosterone? What

about hcg, or will that have to be taken forever if I start too?

Iv only heard of anecdotal evidence for things like tribulus, no studies or

anything, so am dubious about that like you say. But then again it is more

appealing than these other things as it seems safer and less intimidating lol.

Has anyone on this forum tried it, or anything similar, and it had it work for

them?

Are you saying that my FSH and LH are low enough to think about being

hypopituitary? My TSH has always been correlated with my thyroid hormone levels

(not really high or low) which makes me think my pituitary is ok...or can this

happen even with pituitary disorders?

I hope I am not hypopituitary and that with enough Armour i will produce enough

FSH and LH and testosterone. My daily average temps are 36.85C which is nearly

normal, but Im hoping there's still enough of a thyroid problem still to cause

the low testosterone.

I am also getting vit D, candida, and RT3 tested BTW to see if theres something

there that's stopping thyroid working.

Thanks

Jonny

>

>

> Jonny that's fine nothing is to long with one is sick and needing info.

>

> I can tell you this if one has low Testosterone and his Corisol and Thyroid

test low this can cause low Testosterone and some Dr.'s like Dr. no believe

fixing this will bring levels of testosterone back up. You can read and post to

him at his new forum.

> http://www.definitivemind.com/forums/index.php

>

> You need to understand something about Taking Testosterone meds once your on

them it's rare you can stop and your HPTA will start up again this is the

messages sent to your Testis to make more Testosterone the LH and FSH. If your

not Secondary then your Testis don't work well enough to make Testosterone.

Most men and women I talk to that have low sex hormones and cortisol with

Thyroid have a Pituitary Problem. When your Dr. tested your LH and FSH levels

and they came back low. This says your Secondary unless your Estradiol E2

levels were to high I dought he tested them. And I don't know any men maybe one

that got off TRT and got there HPTA jumped started once you go on TRT it's for

life.

>

> Taking HC or Cortef will not lower Testosterone if anything it helps the

Testosterone you taking to work better.

>

> Read these links one is the best from Dr. Jefferies book " Safe Uses of

Cortisol " . In this you will see it's safe to use upto but not over 30 mgs of

HC.

> http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/safe-uses

> More links.

> http://www.geocities.com/chrisgj@.../Cortisol.html

> In this link at the bottom is about the Pituitary and it's a FAQ dam good

read.

> http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewtopic.php?f=12 & t=256

> Between Dr. M and this guy I got the help I needed after being sick and

not getting the right treatment for 23 yrs. I am not trying to do what your

doing I did it I am a success story.

>

> Any form of TRT is good but doing things like Clomiphene and Tribulus are a

road to no end Clomiphene is not a good treatment for low T but some guys do

well on it it has bad sides. Tribulus never found anyone that did good on this

and I feel it's because most of what is sold out there is junk.

>

>

> In this link are links about low Adrenal a FAQ's and Aldosterone levels where

we need Sea Salt.

> http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewtopic.php?f=12 & t=256

>

> I use Maca it helps keep my hormones leveled and works to keep my libido up

even increases my Ejaculate men on TRT don't have normal Ejaculate some have

just a drop this helps. I buy it by the pound and take one tsp full in some

apple sauce or with my yogurt I do take this morning and noon. I also take Zinc

with the ZMA I take this is great the testis need zinc and because zinc lowers

copper I take the ZMA at bed time and the copper at noon.

> http://www.macaweb.com/products/maca.html

> http://www.myvitanet.com/zmaanspre90c.html

> http://www.myvitanet.com/cop100cnt2mg.html

> I take a lot of supplements for my heart here is a list everything I take meds

and all. It's a cut and paste from Word did not come out to good but you can

stil read it.

> =========================================================================

>

> PHILIP’S MED’S

> • Simvastatin(Zocor) 20 mg. bedtime for Cholestrol.

> • Arimidex .25 mg. bed time every 24 hours for control of Estradiol.

> • Aspirin 81 mg morning 1x/day.

> • Alprazolam(Xanax) .25 mg. up to 1x at morning and bedtime.

> • Atenolol 50 mg. 1x/day morning for heart beta-blocker cut in half 25 mgs.

> • Isinopril 10 mg. 1x/day morning for BP cut in ¼’s 2.5 mgs.

> • Triamterene/HCTZ 37.5/25 mgs. Every 3 days.

> • Armour 4.5 grains 2 morning and one and a half at noon and one at dinner

for Thyroid.

> • Potassium Chloride 20 mg. 1x/day morning. I stopped this not on a strong

water pill anymore.

> • Testosterone .40ml. or 70 mgs shot every 3 days.

> • HCG 400 IU’s shot the 2 days each in between the Testosterone shot.

> • Celebrex 200 mgs. 2x/day morning and dinner.

> • Cortef 5 mgs. 10 mgs morning, 5mgs at 9am, 10 mgs at 1pm and 5 mgs at 6pm.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Supplements

> • Vit. A 10,000 IU’s 1x/day.

> • Vit. E 400 IU’s 1x/day.

> • Folacal Folinic Acid 800 mg. 1x/day

> • Feosol Iron 45mgs 3x’s/day morning noon and dinner.

> • Glucosamine HCI 1500 MGS. †" Chondroitin Sulface 1200 mgs. 2x/day.

> • Lovaza 1gm. 1x/day Fish Oil.

> • TMG 750mg 1pm and 11pm 2 pills a day.

> • Solary Super Bio C 2 x’s/day 1000 mgs. Total.

> • l-Arginine and l-Orthinine 100 Capsules, 750 mg, Twinlab 1 at bedtime.

> • NOW brand ZMA 800mgs 3 at bedtime.

> • Copper 2mgs 1 at noon.

> • Dr. Cranton's PrimeNutrients 3/day.

> • Maca. 1 tsp in the moning and 1 tsp at noon.

> • Biotics Bio-D-Mulsion Forte Vit. D 2000 IU's per drop I am doing 6 drops a

day.

> • Iodoral Iodine ½ tab / day.

> • I went with NOW brand for the following supplements do to a high levels

on a Homocysteine Cardiovascular and below normal level of Folate RBC labs.

> • NAC N-Acetyl Cysteine, Selenium, Molybdenum - 600 mg.

> • B-12 (Brain) Methylcobalamin - 5000 mcg lozenges.

> • Coenzyme B Complex.

> • P-5-P (Coenzyme B6) 50 mg.

> • I am taking 800 mcg. Folacal for low Folate RBC.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Co-Moderator

> Phil

[Guest guest]

Men trying Clomid have got floaters in there eyes and feel like they have PMS.

There are Clomid and HCG stim. tests you can do to find out if your Pituitary is

bad also an ACTH stim. test but you would need to stop using HC for 2 weeks to

so this test. I know how you feel been down this road and lived with a

Pituitary Problem for 23 yrs not knowing it can't say is was fun your all ready

treating most of the things that can go wrong with the pituitary and with you LH

and FSH as low as it is not on TRT makes me wonder if it's not your pituitary.

But I am not a Dr. I could be wrong but better to be safe then sorry. The stim.

tests for Clomid and HCG are in this link.

http://www.aace.com/pub/pdf/guidelines/hypogonadism.pdf

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: jrshannie <jrshannie@...>

> Subject: Re: Correcting low/normal testosterone? T 12, FSH 2.2,

LH 3.7

>

> Date: Tuesday, August 4, 2009, 12:17 PM

> I don't like the idea of being on it

> for life. Could you tell me why you don't like clomiphene? I

> was thinking that it will increase LH and so there is no

> risk of testes being suppressed permenantly?

>

> Is there anything I can take then temporarily while

> (hopefully) my thyroid get optimal and can then make the

> testes produce better levels of testosterone? What about

> hcg, or will that have to be taken forever if I start too?

>

> Iv only heard of anecdotal evidence for things like

> tribulus, no studies or anything, so am dubious about that

> like you say. But then again it is more appealing than these

> other things as it seems safer and less intimidating lol.

> Has anyone on this forum tried it with success?

>

> Are you saying that my FSH and LH are low enough to think

> about being hypopituitary? I hope I am not hypopituitary and

> that with enough Armour i will produce enough FSH and LH and

> testosterone.

>

> I am also getting vit D, candida, and RT3 tested BTW to see

> if theres something there that's stopping thyroid working.

>

> Thanks

> Jonny

>

>

> >

> >

> > Jonny that's fine nothing is to long with one is sick

> and needing info.

> > 

> > I can tell you this if one has low Testosterone and

> his Corisol and Thyroid test low this can cause low

> Testosterone and some Dr.'s like Dr. no believe fixing

> this will bring levels of testosterone back up.  You

> can read and post to him at his new forum.

> > http://www.definitivemind.com/forums/index.php

> > 

> > You need to understand something about Taking

> Testosterone meds once your on them it's rare you can stop

> and your HPTA will start up again this is the messages sent

> to your Testis to make more Testosterone the LH and

> FSH.  If your not Secondary then your Testis don't work

> well enough to make Testosterone.  Most men and women I

> talk to that have low sex hormones and cortisol with Thyroid

> have a Pituitary Problem.  When your Dr. tested your LH

> and FSH levels and they came back low.  This says your

> Secondary unless your Estradiol E2 levels were to high I

> dought he tested them. And I don't know any men maybe one

> that got off TRT and got there HPTA jumped started once you

> go on TRT it's for life.

> >

> > Taking HC or Cortef will not lower Testosterone if

> anything it helps the Testosterone you taking to work

> better.

> >

> > Read these links one is the best from Dr. Jefferies

> book " Safe Uses of Cortisol " .  In this you will see

> it's safe to use upto but not over 30 mgs of HC.

> > http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/safe-uses

> > More links.

> > http://www.geocities.com/chrisgj@.../Cortisol.html

> > In this link at the bottom is about the Pituitary and

> it's a FAQ dam good read.

> > http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewtopic.php?f=12 & t=256

> > Between Dr. M and this guy I got the help I

> needed after being sick and not getting the right treatment

> for 23 yrs.  I am not trying to do what your doing I

> did it I am a success story.

> >

> > Any form of TRT is good but doing things like

> Clomiphene and Tribulus are a road to no end Clomiphene is

> not a good treatment for low T but some guys do well on it

> it has bad sides.  Tribulus never found anyone that did

> good on this and I feel it's because most of what is sold

> out there is junk.

> >

> >

> > In this link are links about low Adrenal a FAQ's and

> Aldosterone levels where we need Sea Salt.

> > http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewtopic.php?f=12 & t=256

> >

> > I use Maca it helps keep my hormones leveled and works

> to keep my libido up even increases my Ejaculate men on TRT

> don't have normal Ejaculate some have just a drop this

> helps.  I buy it by the pound and take one tsp full in

> some apple sauce or with my yogurt I do take this morning

> and noon.  I also take Zinc with the ZMA I take this is

> great the testis need zinc and because zinc lowers copper I

> take the ZMA at bed time and the copper at noon.

> > http://www.macaweb.com/products/maca.html

> > http://www.myvitanet.com/zmaanspre90c.html

> > http://www.myvitanet.com/cop100cnt2mg.html

> > I take a lot of supplements for my heart here is a

> list everything I take meds and all.  It's a cut and

> paste from Word did not come out to good but you can stil

> read it.

> >

> =========================================================================

> >

> > PHILIP’S  MED’S

> > •    Simvastatin(Zocor) 20 mg.

> bedtime for Cholestrol.

> > •    Arimidex  .25 mg. bed

> time every 24 hours for control of Estradiol.

> > •    Aspirin 81 mg morning

> 1x/day.

> > •    Alprazolam(Xanax) .25 mg. up

> to 1x at morning and bedtime.

> > •    Atenolol 50 mg. 1x/day

> morning for heart beta-blocker cut in half 25 mgs.

> > •    Isinopril 10 mg. 1x/day

> morning for BP cut in ¼’s 2.5 mgs.

> > •    Triamterene/HCTZ 37.5/25

> mgs. Every 3 days.

> > •    Armour 4.5 grains 2 morning

> and one and a half at noon and one at dinner for Thyroid.

> > •    Potassium Chloride 20 mg.

> 1x/day morning. I stopped this not on a strong water pill

> anymore.

> > •    Testosterone .40ml. or 70

> mgs shot every 3 days.

> > •    HCG 400 IU’s shot the

> 2 days each in between the Testosterone shot.

> > •    Celebrex 200 mgs. 2x/day

> morning and dinner.

> > •    Cortef 5 mgs. 10 mgs

> morning, 5mgs at 9am, 10 mgs at 1pm and 5 mgs at 6pm.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >  Supplements

> > •    Vit. A 10,000 IU’s

> 1x/day.

> > •    Vit. E 400 IU’s

> 1x/day.

> > •    Folacal Folinic Acid 800 mg.

> 1x/day

> > •    Feosol Iron 45mgs

> 3x’s/day morning noon and dinner.

> > •    Glucosamine HCI 1500 MGS.

> †" Chondroitin Sulface 1200 mgs. 2x/day.

> > •    Lovaza 1gm. 1x/day Fish

> Oil.

> > •    TMG 750mg 1pm and 11pm 2

> pills a day.

> > •     Solary Super Bio

> C 2 x’s/day 1000 mgs. Total.   

> > •    l-Arginine and l-Orthinine

> 100 Capsules, 750 mg, Twinlab 1 at bedtime.

> > •    NOW brand  ZMA 800mgs 3

> at bedtime.

> > •    Copper 2mgs 1 at noon.

> > •    Dr. Cranton's PrimeNutrients

> 3/day.

> > •    Maca.  1 tsp in the

> moning and 1 tsp at noon.

> > •    Biotics Bio-D-Mulsion Forte

> Vit. D 2000 IU's per drop I am doing 6 drops a day.

> > •    Iodoral Iodine ½ tab /

> day.

> > •    I went with NOW  brand

> for the following supplements do to a high levels on a

> Homocysteine Cardiovascular and below normal level of Folate

> RBC labs.

> > •    NAC N-Acetyl Cysteine,

> Selenium, Molybdenum - 600 mg.

> > •    B-12 (Brain) Methylcobalamin

> - 5000 mcg lozenges.

> > •    Coenzyme B Complex.

> > •    P-5-P (Coenzyme B6) 50 mg.

> > •    I am taking 800 mcg. Folacal

> for low Folate RBC.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Co-Moderator

> > Phil

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

I don't think my endo would do Clomid and HCG stim. tests as FSH and LH are in

range and I don't know how to get them otherwise.

Do you happen to know the effect of hypothyroidism on FSH and LH? Im hoping that

my hypothyroid could be a cause of them being low.

BTW I noticed you take your Armour with more in the morning and less in the

evening. Is this better than doing it the way I am which is even?

thanks

Jonny

> > >

> > >

> > > Jonny that's fine nothing is to long with one is sick

> > and needing info.

> > > 

> > > I can tell you this if one has low Testosterone and

> > his Corisol and Thyroid test low this can cause low

> > Testosterone and some Dr.'s like Dr. no believe fixing

> > this will bring levels of testosterone back up.  You

> > can read and post to him at his new forum.

> > > http://www.definitivemind.com/forums/index.php

> > > 

> > > You need to understand something about Taking

> > Testosterone meds once your on them it's rare you can stop

> > and your HPTA will start up again this is the messages sent

> > to your Testis to make more Testosterone the LH and

> > FSH.  If your not Secondary then your Testis don't work

> > well enough to make Testosterone.  Most men and women I

> > talk to that have low sex hormones and cortisol with Thyroid

> > have a Pituitary Problem.  When your Dr. tested your LH

> > and FSH levels and they came back low.  This says your

> > Secondary unless your Estradiol E2 levels were to high I

> > dought he tested them. And I don't know any men maybe one

> > that got off TRT and got there HPTA jumped started once you

> > go on TRT it's for life.

> > >

> > > Taking HC or Cortef will not lower Testosterone if

> > anything it helps the Testosterone you taking to work

> > better.

> > >

> > > Read these links one is the best from Dr. Jefferies

> > book " Safe Uses of Cortisol " .  In this you will see

> > it's safe to use upto but not over 30 mgs of HC.

> > > http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/safe-uses

> > > More links.

> > > http://www.geocities.com/chrisgj@/Cortisol.html

> > > In this link at the bottom is about the Pituitary and

> > it's a FAQ dam good read.

> > > http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewtopic.php?f=12 & t=256

> > > Between Dr. M and this guy I got the help I

> > needed after being sick and not getting the right treatment

> > for 23 yrs.  I am not trying to do what your doing I

> > did it I am a success story.

> > >

> > > Any form of TRT is good but doing things like

> > Clomiphene and Tribulus are a road to no end Clomiphene is

> > not a good treatment for low T but some guys do well on it

> > it has bad sides.  Tribulus never found anyone that did

> > good on this and I feel it's because most of what is sold

> > out there is junk.

> > >

> > >

> > > In this link are links about low Adrenal a FAQ's and

> > Aldosterone levels where we need Sea Salt.

> > > http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewtopic.php?f=12 & t=256

> > >

> > > I use Maca it helps keep my hormones leveled and works

> > to keep my libido up even increases my Ejaculate men on TRT

> > don't have normal Ejaculate some have just a drop this

> > helps.  I buy it by the pound and take one tsp full in

> > some apple sauce or with my yogurt I do take this morning

> > and noon.  I also take Zinc with the ZMA I take this is

> > great the testis need zinc and because zinc lowers copper I

> > take the ZMA at bed time and the copper at noon.

> > > http://www.macaweb.com/products/maca.html

> > > http://www.myvitanet.com/zmaanspre90c.html

> > > http://www.myvitanet.com/cop100cnt2mg.html

> > > I take a lot of supplements for my heart here is a

> > list everything I take meds and all.  It's a cut and

> > paste from Word did not come out to good but you can stil

> > read it.

> > >

> > =========================================================================

> > >

> > > PHILIP’S  MED’S

> > > •    Simvastatin(Zocor) 20 mg.

> > bedtime for Cholestrol.

> > > •    Arimidex  .25 mg. bed

> > time every 24 hours for control of Estradiol.

> > > •    Aspirin 81 mg morning

> > 1x/day.

> > > •    Alprazolam(Xanax) .25 mg. up

> > to 1x at morning and bedtime.

> > > •    Atenolol 50 mg. 1x/day

> > morning for heart beta-blocker cut in half 25 mgs.

> > > •    Isinopril 10 mg. 1x/day

> > morning for BP cut in ¼’s 2.5 mgs.

> > > •    Triamterene/HCTZ 37.5/25

> > mgs. Every 3 days.

> > > •    Armour 4.5 grains 2 morning

> > and one and a half at noon and one at dinner for Thyroid.

> > > •    Potassium Chloride 20 mg.

> > 1x/day morning. I stopped this not on a strong water pill

> > anymore.

> > > •    Testosterone .40ml. or 70

> > mgs shot every 3 days.

> > > •    HCG 400 IU’s shot the

> > 2 days each in between the Testosterone shot.

> > > •    Celebrex 200 mgs. 2x/day

> > morning and dinner.

> > > •    Cortef 5 mgs. 10 mgs

> > morning, 5mgs at 9am, 10 mgs at 1pm and 5 mgs at 6pm.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >  Supplements

> > > •    Vit. A 10,000 IU’s

> > 1x/day.

> > > •    Vit. E 400 IU’s

> > 1x/day.

> > > •    Folacal Folinic Acid 800 mg.

> > 1x/day

> > > •    Feosol Iron 45mgs

> > 3x’s/day morning noon and dinner.

> > > •    Glucosamine HCI 1500 MGS.

> > †" Chondroitin Sulface 1200 mgs. 2x/day.

> > > •    Lovaza 1gm. 1x/day Fish

> > Oil.

> > > •    TMG 750mg 1pm and 11pm 2

> > pills a day.

> > > •     Solary Super Bio

> > C 2 x’s/day 1000 mgs. Total.   

> > > •    l-Arginine and l-Orthinine

> > 100 Capsules, 750 mg, Twinlab 1 at bedtime.

> > > •    NOW brand  ZMA 800mgs 3

> > at bedtime.

> > > •    Copper 2mgs 1 at noon.

> > > •    Dr. Cranton's PrimeNutrients

> > 3/day.

> > > •    Maca.  1 tsp in the

> > moning and 1 tsp at noon.

> > > •    Biotics Bio-D-Mulsion Forte

> > Vit. D 2000 IU's per drop I am doing 6 drops a day.

> > > •    Iodoral Iodine ½ tab /

> > day.

> > > •    I went with NOW  brand

> > for the following supplements do to a high levels on a

> > Homocysteine Cardiovascular and below normal level of Folate

> > RBC labs.

> > > •    NAC N-Acetyl Cysteine,

> > Selenium, Molybdenum - 600 mg.

> > > •    B-12 (Brain) Methylcobalamin

> > - 5000 mcg lozenges.

> > > •    Coenzyme B Complex.

> > > •    P-5-P (Coenzyme B6) 50 mg.

> > > •    I am taking 800 mcg. Folacal

> > for low Folate RBC.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Co-Moderator

> > > Phil

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

The thing about some Endo's is they just are not good at testing or treating low

testosterone every ones levels of LH and FSH should be in the range but this

does not mean it's good lower levels with low testosterone and good Estradiol at

about 20 pg/ml means your Secondary and have a Pituitary Problem this can be due

to a tumor or a head injury. No Thyroid does not have an effect on Testosterone

but low Testosterone has an effect on Thyroid hormones some are made in the

testis go to Dr. no's forum and read about it.

http://www.definitivemind.com/forums/index.php

I take now 4.5 grains of Armour 2 grains in the morning about 5am at this time I

also take my Cortef 10 mgs (HC) and do my Testosterone or HCG shots then go back

to bed I then get up at 8am and feel dam good doing this. I am retired and

still wake at 5 am. I take 1.5 grains at 1pm and 1 grain at 6pm this keeps me

more leveled and I use Maca. I take one full tsp in the morning with some apple

sauce and one at lunch in some yogurt. Doing this helps keep my libido up and

keeps my hormones leveled.

Some people say this dose nothing I do it 3 weeks on and one off and I can feel

the difference. Also it makes the volume of your ejaculate increase.

http://www.macaweb.com/products/maca.html

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: jrshannie <jrshannie@...>

> Subject: Re: Correcting low/normal testosterone? T 12, FSH 2.2,

LH 3.7

>

> Date: Wednesday, August 5, 2009, 8:40 AM

> I don't think my endo would do Clomid

> and HCG stim. tests as FSH and LH are in range and I don't

> know how to get them otherwise.

>

> Do you happen to know the effect of hypothyroidism on FSH

> and LH? Im hoping that my hypothyroid could be a cause

> of  them being low.

>

> BTW I noticed you take your Armour with more in the morning

> and less in the evening. Is this better than doing it the

> way I am which is even?

>

> thanks

> Jonny

>

>

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Jonny that's fine nothing is to long with

> one is sick

> > > and needing info.

> > > > 

> > > > I can tell you this if one has low

> Testosterone and

> > > his Corisol and Thyroid test low this can cause

> low

> > > Testosterone and some Dr.'s like Dr. no

> believe fixing

> > > this will bring levels of testosterone back

> up.  You

> > > can read and post to him at his new forum.

> > > > http://www.definitivemind.com/forums/index.php

> > > > 

> > > > You need to understand something about

> Taking

> > > Testosterone meds once your on them it's rare you

> can stop

> > > and your HPTA will start up again this is the

> messages sent

> > > to your Testis to make more Testosterone the LH

> and

> > > FSH.  If your not Secondary then your Testis

> don't work

> > > well enough to make Testosterone.  Most men

> and women I

> > > talk to that have low sex hormones and cortisol

> with Thyroid

> > > have a Pituitary Problem.  When your Dr.

> tested your LH

> > > and FSH levels and they came back low.  This

> says your

> > > Secondary unless your Estradiol E2 levels were to

> high I

> > > dought he tested them. And I don't know any men

> maybe one

> > > that got off TRT and got there HPTA jumped

> started once you

> > > go on TRT it's for life.

> > > >

> > > > Taking HC or Cortef will not lower

> Testosterone if

> > > anything it helps the Testosterone you taking to

> work

> > > better.

> > > >

> > > > Read these links one is the best from Dr.

> Jefferies

> > > book " Safe Uses of Cortisol " .  In this you

> will see

> > > it's safe to use upto but not over 30 mgs of HC.

> > > > http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/safe-uses

> > > > More links.

> > > > http://www.geocities.com/chrisgj@/Cortisol.html

> > > > In this link at the bottom is about the

> Pituitary and

> > > it's a FAQ dam good read.

> > > > http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewtopic.php?f=12 & t=256

> > > > Between Dr. M and this guy I got the

> help I

> > > needed after being sick and not getting the right

> treatment

> > > for 23 yrs.  I am not trying to do what your

> doing I

> > > did it I am a success story.

> > > >

> > > > Any form of TRT is good but doing things

> like

> > > Clomiphene and Tribulus are a road to no end

> Clomiphene is

> > > not a good treatment for low T but some guys do

> well on it

> > > it has bad sides.  Tribulus never found anyone

> that did

> > > good on this and I feel it's because most of what

> is sold

> > > out there is junk.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > In this link are links about low Adrenal a

> FAQ's and

> > > Aldosterone levels where we need Sea Salt.

> > > > http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewtopic.php?f=12 & t=256

> > > >

> > > > I use Maca it helps keep my hormones leveled

> and works

> > > to keep my libido up even increases my Ejaculate

> men on TRT

> > > don't have normal Ejaculate some have just a drop

> this

> > > helps.  I buy it by the pound and take one tsp

> full in

> > > some apple sauce or with my yogurt I do take this

> morning

> > > and noon.  I also take Zinc with the ZMA I

> take this is

> > > great the testis need zinc and because zinc

> lowers copper I

> > > take the ZMA at bed time and the copper at noon.

> > > > http://www.macaweb.com/products/maca.html

> > > > http://www.myvitanet.com/zmaanspre90c.html

> > > > http://www.myvitanet.com/cop100cnt2mg.html

> > > > I take a lot of supplements for my heart

> here is a

> > > list everything I take meds and all.  It's a

> cut and

> > > paste from Word did not come out to good but you

> can stil

> > > read it.

> > > >

> > >

> =========================================================================

> > > >

> > > > PHILIP’S 

> MED’S

> > > > •   

> Simvastatin(Zocor) 20 mg.

> > > bedtime for Cholestrol.

> > > > •    Arimidex  .25

> mg. bed

> > > time every 24 hours for control of Estradiol.

> > > > •    Aspirin 81 mg

> morning

> > > 1x/day.

> > > > •   

> Alprazolam(Xanax) .25 mg. up

> > > to 1x at morning and bedtime.

> > > > •    Atenolol 50 mg.

> 1x/day

> > > morning for heart beta-blocker cut in half 25

> mgs.

> > > > •    Isinopril 10 mg.

> 1x/day

> > > morning for BP cut in

> ¼’s 2.5 mgs.

> > > > •    Triamterene/HCTZ

> 37.5/25

> > > mgs. Every 3 days.

> > > > •    Armour 4.5

> grains 2 morning

> > > and one and a half at noon and one at dinner for

> Thyroid.

> > > > •    Potassium

> Chloride 20 mg.

> > > 1x/day morning. I stopped this not on a strong

> water pill

> > > anymore.

> > > > •    Testosterone

> .40ml. or 70

> > > mgs shot every 3 days.

> > > > •    HCG 400

> IU’s shot the

> > > 2 days each in between the Testosterone shot.

> > > > •    Celebrex 200

> mgs. 2x/day

> > > morning and dinner.

> > > > •    Cortef 5 mgs. 10

> mgs

> > > morning, 5mgs at 9am, 10 mgs at 1pm and 5 mgs at

> 6pm.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >  Supplements

> > > > •    Vit. A 10,000

> IU’s

> > > 1x/day.

> > > > •    Vit. E 400

> IU’s

> > > 1x/day.

> > > > •    Folacal Folinic

> Acid 800 mg.

> > > 1x/day

> > > > •    Feosol Iron

> 45mgs

> > > 3x’s/day morning noon and

> dinner.

> > > > •    Glucosamine HCI

> 1500 MGS.

> > > †" Chondroitin Sulface 1200 mgs.

> 2x/day.

> > > > •    Lovaza 1gm.

> 1x/day Fish

> > > Oil.

> > > > •    TMG 750mg 1pm

> and 11pm 2

> > > pills a day.

> > > > •     Solary

> Super Bio

> > > C 2 x’s/day 1000 mgs. Total. 

>  

> > > > •    l-Arginine and

> l-Orthinine

> > > 100 Capsules, 750 mg, Twinlab 1 at bedtime.

> > > > •    NOW brand 

> ZMA 800mgs 3

> > > at bedtime.

> > > > •    Copper 2mgs 1 at

> noon.

> > > > •    Dr. Cranton's

> PrimeNutrients

> > > 3/day.

> > > > •    Maca.  1 tsp

> in the

> > > moning and 1 tsp at noon.

> > > > •    Biotics

> Bio-D-Mulsion Forte

> > > Vit. D 2000 IU's per drop I am doing 6 drops a

> day.

> > > > •    Iodoral Iodine

> ½ tab /

> > > day.

> > > > •    I went with

> NOW  brand

> > > for the following supplements do to a high levels

> on a

> > > Homocysteine Cardiovascular and below normal

> level of Folate

> > > RBC labs.

> > > > •    NAC N-Acetyl

> Cysteine,

> > > Selenium, Molybdenum - 600 mg.

> > > > •    B-12 (Brain)

> Methylcobalamin

> > > - 5000 mcg lozenges.

> > > > •    Coenzyme B

> Complex.

> > > > •    P-5-P (Coenzyme

> B6) 50 mg.

> > > > •    I am taking 800

> mcg. Folacal

> > > for low Folate RBC.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Co-Moderator

> > > > Phil

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ------------------------------------

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

I have read some studies showing that low thyroid can cause low testosterone:

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/bsc/ija/2007/00000030/00000001/art00003

http://www.andrologyjournal.org/cgi/content/abstract/9/3/215

http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/105072504323024552?

But I dont know about FSH and LH which is what I would really like to know.

Could you tell me why you decided to take more Armour in the mornings? Does it

mimick the body normal output better by dong this? And did it make you feel

better compared to doing it level throughout the day?

Thanks

jonny

[Guest guest]

Yes you want your levels up in the morning every thing is higher at this time if

you took it at bed time you would not sleep.

LH and FSH are the messages sent to the Testis to make more Testosterone much

like the TSH sent to your Thyroid to make more Thyroid hormones. Then more

Testosterone you take the lower your LH and FSH will go and the more Thyroid

meds you take the lower your TSH will go tells you it's working.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: jrshannie <jrshannie@...>

> Subject: Re: Correcting low/normal testosterone? T 12, FSH 2.2,

LH 3.7

>

> Date: Wednesday, August 5, 2009, 12:54 PM

> I have read some studies showing that

> low thyroid can cause low testosterone:

> http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/bsc/ija/2007/00000030/00000001/art00003

> http://www.andrologyjournal.org/cgi/content/abstract/9/3/215

> http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/105072504323024552?

>

> But I dont know about FSH and LH which is what I would

> really like to know.

>

> Could you tell me why you decided to take more Armour in

> the mornings? Does it mimick the body normal output better

> by dong this? And did it make you feel better compared to

> doing it level throughout the day?

>

> Thanks

> jonny

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

As to the question about Thyroid causing Testosterone to become lower yes it

will. I could swear you asked if Testosterone can make your Thyroid low but I

do make mistakes from time to time but " Once I thought I was Wrong and I was

Mistaken "

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: jrshannie <jrshannie@...>

> Subject: Re: Correcting low/normal testosterone? T 12, FSH 2.2,

LH 3.7

>

> Date: Wednesday, August 5, 2009, 12:54 PM

> I have read some studies showing that

> low thyroid can cause low testosterone:

> http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/bsc/ija/2007/00000030/00000001/art00003

> http://www.andrologyjournal.org/cgi/content/abstract/9/3/215

> http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/105072504323024552?

>

> But I dont know about FSH and LH which is what I would

> really like to know.

>

> Could you tell me why you decided to take more Armour in

> the mornings? Does it mimick the body normal output better

> by dong this? And did it make you feel better compared to

> doing it level throughout the day?

>

> Thanks

> jonny

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

lol that's ok, no worries.

i might try and change my Armour dosing so Im taking more in the morning see if

I feel better.

Were you ever at a stage in your treatment when your testosterone was normal but

your thyroid was out and vice verca? and if so how did you feel in both

situations? I ask because Im not sure if my symtoms are more due to low thyroid

or low testosterone. The symptoms Im confused about are

- tiredness (especially after walking round the city shopping for some reason.),

- muscle aches after exercising (eg. a few minutes on a rowing machine Ill have

to stop as arms hurt too much.) and when I used to workout Id get muscle aches

that got worse about a day after going to the gym (Delayed onset Muscle

soreness).

- complete social withdrawal/not outgoing at all.

I guess it's hard to know either way if thyroid lowers testosterone, but I

thought that if you've had low testosterone and low thyroid before then you may

be able to tell me if these sound more like low testosterone than low throid.

Thanks for answering all these questions for me, really appreciate it.

Thanks

jonny

[Guest guest]

Yes I had them and getting leveled off on Testosterone doing shots my pain

stopped. I am having this problem now today because when I had heart bypass

sugary they took me off TRT and let me crash. Every time this would happen I

was taken off TRT when my Dr.'s would send me to an Endo this is how I figured

out they are not good for low testosterone. Seven times I was sent to see an

Endo and taken off TRT for labs each time I would crash and get dam sore joints

and muscles. Each time this happened it would take longer to get back. I was

taken off TRT last Nov. and went back on it at the end of Feb. I walked for 30

min's today and spot sprayed the weeds in my lawn and edged the grass now I am

so sore and in so much pain I feel like taking a pain pill. It's been a good 6

months that I have been back on TRT and still not there yet. First you need to

get leveled at a good range then little by little you start to feel better and

your Joints and Muscles

get supported by the Testosterone.

As for social withdrawal and feelings of panic this was low Testosterone and

high Estradiol for me. I was on TRT 23 yrs before I found out I was Secondary

and it has only been 4 yrs I have been treating my low cortisol and Thyroid

levels what this did for me was take away the fatigue I suffered.

As for

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: jrshannie <jrshannie@...>

> Subject: Re: Correcting low/normal testosterone? T 12, FSH 2.2,

LH 3.7

>

> Date: Wednesday, August 5, 2009, 4:13 PM

> lol that's ok, no worries.

>

> i might try and change my Armour dosing so Im taking more

> in the morning see if I feel better.

>

> Were you ever at a stage in your treatment when your

> testosterone was normal but your thyroid was out and vice

> verca?  and if so how did you feel in both situations?

> I ask because Im not sure if my symtoms are more due to low

> thyroid or low testosterone. The symptoms Im confused about

> are

> - tiredness (especially after walking round the city

> shopping for some reason.),

> - muscle aches after exercising (eg. a few minutes on a

> rowing machine Ill have to stop as arms hurt too much.) and

> when I used to workout Id get muscle aches that got worse

> about a day after going to the gym (Delayed onset Muscle

> soreness).

> - complete social withdrawal/not outgoing at all.

>

> I guess it's hard to know either way if thyroid lowers

> testosterone, but I thought that if you've had low

> testosterone and low thyroid before then you may be able to

> tell me if these sound more like low testosterone than low

> throid.

>

> Thanks for answering all these questions for me, really

> appreciate it.

>

> Thanks

> jonny

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Phil,

About what you said before:

> You need to understand something about Taking Testosterone meds once your on

them it's rare you can stop and your HPTA will start up again this is the

messages sent to your Testis to make more Testosterone the LH and FSH. If your

not Secondary then your Testis don't work well enough to make Testosterone. Most

men and women I talk to that have low sex hormones and cortisol with Thyroid

have a Pituitary Problem. When your Dr. tested your LH and FSH levels and they

came back low. This says your Secondary unless your Estradiol E2

levels were to high I dought he tested them. And I don't know any men maybe one

that got off TRT and got there HPTA jumped started once you go on TRT it's for

life.

Do you know if there's any risk in permenant suppression from testosterone cream

if Im only low normal, so wont be using as much as poeple with actual low

testostone? or if there's the same risk with Clomid or HCG?

If its low now then Id like to treat it, but if there's risk of permenant

suppression, Id want to wait until thyroid is optimal to see if testosterone

comes up by itself.

Thanks

Jonny

[Guest guest]

If your on a cream don't remember your shut down all ready but here is the thing

if you stop your going to crash lower then you started and can get dam sick it

put me off work on sick leave for 6 months. My Dr.'s would send me to see an

Endo they would take me off TRT for what they call a base line test this

happened to me 7 times and each time all they found out was how dam sick they

made me. WTF I later found out there is no such thing as taking someone off TRT

for a base line test this is BULL SHI*. All your going to do is drop way down

and as your off if you can stand it your levels might start to come back up a

little at a time only to get back to where you were when you stopped. If your

levels were lower then 350 I don't feel fixing your Thyroid will bring your

levels up to a good level of say 500 just have yet to see this happen.

Most good Dr.'s like Dr. at www.allthingsmale.com will tell you if your

below 350 that there is more wrong then your Thyroid. I have been off TRT now 8

times this last time the dam Heart Sugaren took me off for bypass sugary. His

thinking was the testosterone meds would interfear with my sugary boy was he

wrong it dam near killed me taking me off hormones he even said he was wrong to

do this and will never do that to any man again. I have been back on TRT and

still even though my levels are up I am not back to where I was. It might take

the rest of this yr. to get back. This is why I tell men not to try going off

TRT you crash big time and end up feeling worse then you did before you started

TRT. You will stop and not feel right so when you go back on and you will it

will take much longer to get back to feeling better then when you first started.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: jrshannie <jrshannie@...>

> Subject: Re: Correcting low/normal testosterone? T 12, FSH 2.2,

LH 3.7

>

> Date: Saturday, August 8, 2009, 5:16 PM

> Hi Phil,

>

> About what you said before:

>

> > You need to understand something about Taking

> Testosterone meds once your on them it's rare you can stop

> and your HPTA will start up again this is the messages sent

> to your Testis to make more Testosterone the LH and FSH. If

> your not Secondary then your Testis don't work well enough

> to make Testosterone. Most men and women I talk to that have

> low sex hormones and cortisol with Thyroid have a Pituitary

> Problem. When your Dr. tested your LH and FSH levels and

> they came back low. This says your Secondary unless your

> Estradiol E2

> levels were to high I dought he tested them. And I don't

> know any men maybe one that got off TRT and got there HPTA

> jumped started once you go on TRT it's for life.

>

>

> Do you know if there's any risk in permenant suppression

> from testosterone cream if Im only low normal, so wont be

> using as much as poeple with actual low testostone? or if

> there's the same risk with Clomid or HCG?

> If its low now then Id like to treat it, but if there's

> risk of permenant suppression, Id want to wait until thyroid

> is optimal to see if testosterone comes up by itself.

>

> Thanks

> Jonny

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sh*t, that is what the Urologist my doc sent me to did also. Why don't you try

stopping that Androgen...since it's not working and see if you get a bounce back

he said. Now I'm getting mad. How can there be so much bad information out there

about T?

>

> > From: jrshannie <jrshannie@...>

> > Subject: Re: Correcting low/normal testosterone? T 12, FSH

2.2, LH 3.7

> >

> > Date: Saturday, August 8, 2009, 5:16 PM

> > Hi Phil,

> >

> > About what you said before:

> >

> > > You need to understand something about Taking

> > Testosterone meds once your on them it's rare you can stop

> > and your HPTA will start up again this is the messages sent

> > to your Testis to make more Testosterone the LH and FSH. If

> > your not Secondary then your Testis don't work well enough

> > to make Testosterone. Most men and women I talk to that have

> > low sex hormones and cortisol with Thyroid have a Pituitary

> > Problem. When your Dr. tested your LH and FSH levels and

> > they came back low. This says your Secondary unless your

> > Estradiol E2

> > levels were to high I dought he tested them. And I don't

> > know any men maybe one that got off TRT and got there HPTA

> > jumped started once you go on TRT it's for life.

> >

> >

> > Do you know if there's any risk in permenant suppression

> > from testosterone cream if Im only low normal, so wont be

> > using as much as poeple with actual low testostone? or if

> > there's the same risk with Clomid or HCG?

> > If its low now then Id like to treat it, but if there's

> > risk of permenant suppression, Id want to wait until thyroid

> > is optimal to see if testosterone comes up by itself.

> >

> > Thanks

> > Jonny

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Jonny,

I concur with Phil. Testosterone therapy is generally replacement, not

supplementation. You will only get away with using less T cream, injection,

Androgel, or whatever other source of T for about 2 weeks before the testes shut

down production, thereafter requiring the same replacement dose that other guys

are on (100 mg/wk or so testosterone for injections). There was someone in this

group who reported that his doctor tried to " kickstart " the testes into natural

production by allowing them to rest for a month and supplying exogenous

testosterone during that time, with the hope that when the month was over and

exogenous testosterone was discontinued, the testes would " rebound " (eventually)

and produce more than they were before their vacation. I've only read of this

and have not heard the factual, clinical basis of it.

I believe there could be a risk of permanent suppression, though that is

speculation from a similar scenario but with different dosages. For

bodybuilders (using 5 x as much T as us, if not more), there is evidence that

when they discontinue using steroids and their " post cycle " recovery is over,

they produce less T than they did before their cycle. This was further

compounded by using huge quantities of hCG after their cycle, which probably

caused their testosterone producing (Leydig) cells to become desensitized.

You may wind up with the same or lower T levels permanently after starting and

discontinuing Clomid. The same result may occur after starting and

discontinuing hCG. You may also end up elevating estradiol, since the testes

also produce estrogen.

At medicine's current stage, testosterone replacement therapy is for life. If

your T doesn't go higher, you might want to seek testosterone replacement

therapy. Without medical intervention, your T will continue to go down with

age.

~Xian

> > Do you know if there's any risk in permenant suppression

> > from testosterone cream if Im only low normal, so wont be

> > using as much as poeple with actual low testostone? or if

> > there's the same risk with Clomid or HCG?

> > If its low now then Id like to treat it, but if there's

> > risk of permenant suppression, Id want to wait until thyroid

> > is optimal to see if testosterone comes up by itself.

> >

> > Thanks

> > Jonny

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the replies.

I think in that case I should wait til I think my thyroid is optimal and then

look at testosterone.

Thanks

Jonny

[Guest guest]

For a Dr. to suggest this it to me is criminal.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: wilfredtr <no_reply >

> Subject: Re: Correcting low/normal testosterone? T 12, FSH 2.2,

LH 3.7

>

> Date: Saturday, August 8, 2009, 8:08 PM

> Sh*t, that is what the Urologist my

> doc sent me to did also. Why don't you try stopping that

> Androgen...since it's not working and see if you get a

> bounce back he said. Now I'm getting mad. How can there be

> so much bad information out there about T?

>

>

> >

> > > From: jrshannie <jrshannie@...>

> > > Subject: Re: Correcting low/normal

> testosterone? T 12, FSH 2.2, LH 3.7

> > >

> > > Date: Saturday, August 8, 2009, 5:16 PM

> > > Hi Phil,

> > >

> > > About what you said before:

> > >

> > > > You need to understand something about

> Taking

> > > Testosterone meds once your on them it's rare you

> can stop

> > > and your HPTA will start up again this is the

> messages sent

> > > to your Testis to make more Testosterone the LH

> and FSH. If

> > > your not Secondary then your Testis don't work

> well enough

> > > to make Testosterone. Most men and women I talk

> to that have

> > > low sex hormones and cortisol with Thyroid have a

> Pituitary

> > > Problem. When your Dr. tested your LH and FSH

> levels and

> > > they came back low. This says your Secondary

> unless your

> > > Estradiol E2

> > > levels were to high I dought he tested them. And

> I don't

> > > know any men maybe one that got off TRT and got

> there HPTA

> > > jumped started once you go on TRT it's for life.

> > >

> > >

> > > Do you know if there's any risk in permenant

> suppression

> > > from testosterone cream if Im only low normal, so

> wont be

> > > using as much as poeple with actual low

> testostone? or if

> > > there's the same risk with Clomid or HCG?

> > > If its low now then Id like to treat it, but if

> there's

> > > risk of permenant suppression, Id want to wait

> until thyroid

> > > is optimal to see if testosterone comes up by

> itself.

> > >

> > > Thanks

> > > Jonny

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ------------------------------------

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Xian thank you for backing me up the more help we can put out there the better

off these men will be.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: d00fu524 <calvin1564@...>

> Subject: Re: Correcting low/normal testosterone? T 12, FSH 2.2,

LH 3.7

>

> Date: Saturday, August 8, 2009, 8:18 PM

> Jonny,

>

> I concur with Phil.  Testosterone therapy is generally

> replacement, not supplementation.  You will only get

> away with using less T cream, injection, Androgel, or

> whatever other source of T for about 2 weeks before the

> testes shut down production, thereafter requiring the same

> replacement dose that other guys are on (100 mg/wk or so

> testosterone for injections).  There was someone in

> this group who reported that his doctor tried to " kickstart "

> the testes into natural production by allowing them to rest

> for a month and supplying exogenous testosterone during that

> time, with the hope that when the month was over and

> exogenous testosterone was discontinued, the testes would

> " rebound " (eventually) and produce more than they were

> before their vacation.  I've only read of this and have

> not heard the factual, clinical basis of it.

>

> I believe there could be a risk of permanent suppression,

> though that is speculation from a similar scenario but with

> different dosages.  For bodybuilders (using 5 x as much

> T as us, if not more), there is evidence that when they

> discontinue using steroids and their " post cycle " recovery

> is over, they produce less T than they did before their

> cycle.  This was further compounded by using huge

> quantities of hCG after their cycle, which probably caused

> their testosterone producing (Leydig) cells to become

> desensitized.

>

> You may wind up with the same or lower T levels permanently

> after starting and discontinuing Clomid.  The same

> result may occur after starting and discontinuing hCG. 

> You may also end up elevating estradiol, since the testes

> also produce estrogen.

>

> At medicine's current stage, testosterone replacement

> therapy is for life.  If your T doesn't go higher, you

> might want to seek testosterone replacement therapy. 

> Without medical intervention, your T will continue to go

> down with age.

>

> ~Xian

>

> > > Do you know if there's any risk in permenant

> suppression

> > > from testosterone cream if Im only low normal, so

> wont be

> > > using as much as poeple with actual low

> testostone? or if

> > > there's the same risk with Clomid or HCG?

> > > If its low now then Id like to treat it, but if

> there's

> > > risk of permenant suppression, Id want to wait

> until thyroid

> > > is optimal to see if testosterone comes up by

> itself.

> > >

> > > Thanks

> > > Jonny

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ------------------------------------

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Yeah, I was sooooooo unmotivated. I just coun't get going till like 2pm each

day. Its hard to understand. My mind would WANT to do something, but my body

didn't care.

> > >

> > > > From: jrshannie <jrshannie@>

> > > > Subject: Re: Correcting low/normal

> > testosterone? T 12, FSH 2.2, LH 3.7

> > > >

> > > > Date: Saturday, August 8, 2009, 5:16 PM

> > > > Hi Phil,

> > > >

> > > > About what you said before:

> > > >

> > > > > You need to understand something about

> > Taking

> > > > Testosterone meds once your on them it's rare you

> > can stop

> > > > and your HPTA will start up again this is the

> > messages sent

> > > > to your Testis to make more Testosterone the LH

> > and FSH. If

> > > > your not Secondary then your Testis don't work

> > well enough

> > > > to make Testosterone. Most men and women I talk

> > to that have

> > > > low sex hormones and cortisol with Thyroid have a

> > Pituitary

> > > > Problem. When your Dr. tested your LH and FSH

> > levels and

> > > > they came back low. This says your Secondary

> > unless your

> > > > Estradiol E2

> > > > levels were to high I dought he tested them. And

> > I don't

> > > > know any men maybe one that got off TRT and got

> > there HPTA

> > > > jumped started once you go on TRT it's for life.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Do you know if there's any risk in permenant

> > suppression

> > > > from testosterone cream if Im only low normal, so

> > wont be

> > > > using as much as poeple with actual low

> > testostone? or if

> > > > there's the same risk with Clomid or HCG?

> > > > If its low now then Id like to treat it, but if

> > there's

> > > > risk of permenant suppression, Id want to wait

> > until thyroid

> > > > is optimal to see if testosterone comes up by

> > itself.

> > > >

> > > > Thanks

> > > > Jonny

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ------------------------------------

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Still find out why your low it can be many things wrong fix whats wrong and your

levels can go back up with our TRT.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: wilfredtr <no_reply >

> Subject: Re: Correcting low/normal testosterone? T 12, FSH 2.2,

LH 3.7

>

> Date: Sunday, August 9, 2009, 5:22 PM

> Yeah, I was sooooooo unmotivated. I

> just coun't get going till like 2pm each day. Its hard to

> understand. My mind would WANT to do something, but my body

> didn't care.

>

>

> > > >

> > > > > From: jrshannie <jrshannie@>

> > > > > Subject: Re: Correcting

> low/normal

> > > testosterone? T 12, FSH 2.2, LH 3.7

> > > > >

> > > > > Date: Saturday, August 8, 2009, 5:16

> PM

> > > > > Hi Phil,

> > > > >

> > > > > About what you said before:

> > > > >

> > > > > > You need to understand something

> about

> > > Taking

> > > > > Testosterone meds once your on them

> it's rare you

> > > can stop

> > > > > and your HPTA will start up again this

> is the

> > > messages sent

> > > > > to your Testis to make more

> Testosterone the LH

> > > and FSH. If

> > > > > your not Secondary then your Testis

> don't work

> > > well enough

> > > > > to make Testosterone. Most men and

> women I talk

> > > to that have

> > > > > low sex hormones and cortisol with

> Thyroid have a

> > > Pituitary

> > > > > Problem. When your Dr. tested your LH

> and FSH

> > > levels and

> > > > > they came back low. This says your

> Secondary

> > > unless your

> > > > > Estradiol E2

> > > > > levels were to high I dought he tested

> them. And

> > > I don't

> > > > > know any men maybe one that got off TRT

> and got

> > > there HPTA

> > > > > jumped started once you go on TRT it's

> for life.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Do you know if there's any risk in

> permenant

> > > suppression

> > > > > from testosterone cream if Im only low

> normal, so

> > > wont be

> > > > > using as much as poeple with actual

> low

> > > testostone? or if

> > > > > there's the same risk with Clomid or

> HCG?

> > > > > If its low now then Id like to treat

> it, but if

> > > there's

> > > > > risk of permenant suppression, Id want

> to wait

> > > until thyroid

> > > > > is optimal to see if testosterone comes

> up by

> > > itself.

> > > > >

> > > > > Thanks

> > > > > Jonny

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > ------------------------------------

> > > > >

> > > > >

[Guest guest]

I have to sya something. SInce Testosterone plays a really BIg role in your

body, more research NEEDS to be done. I was jsut in voled in a car accident over

2 months ago, spliintered my tibia nd fibia. Its been put back tog ether 29th 10

pins and a plate andlast week the doc told me there is yet to be any evidence of

healing seen in the exray. WHY one big reason is my T levels are on the flor and

the T is necessary for those bones to heal. SEveral of my regular docs like my

PCP, Endovrin, Urologist have known about it for a while anad have just let it

soled ecuase they are all afraid to pick a treatment due to a severe. heart

attack i had 7 yrs ago. So now the orth surfeon said its going to take a LOT

longer, she sent me to an Ortho onvologist to sort out the metabolic problems,

inclusing the T. I will be lucky if it heals by December now That wil be 6

months. The doc said she should see signs int he xray indicating that its almost

healed already, isntead therer is theopposite. no evidence of an healing yet. I

am taking 4 pumps Andogel daily and have togo back for re-eval on the T, healing

etc 9-6-09

Jim

Re: Correcting low/normal testosterone? T 12, FSH 2.2,

LH 3.7

Jonny,

I concur with Phil. Testosterone therapy is generally replacement, not

supplementation. You will only get away with using less T cream, injection,

Androgel, or whatever other source of T for about 2 weeks before the testes shut

down production, thereafter requiring the same replacement dose that other guys

are on (100 mg/wk or so testosterone for injections). There was someone in this

group who reported that his doctor tried to " kickstart " the testes into natural

production by allowing them to rest for a month and supplying exogenous

testosterone during that time, with the hope that when the month was over and

exogenous testosterone was discontinued, the testes would " rebound " (eventually)

and produce more than they were before their vacation. I've only read of this

and have not heard the factual, clinical basis of it.

I believe there could be a risk of permanent suppression, though that is

speculation from a similar scenario but with different dosages. For bodybuilders

(using 5 x as much T as us, if not more), there is evidence that when they

discontinue using steroids and their " post cycle " recovery is over, they produce

less T than they did before their cycle. This was further compounded by using

huge quantities of hCG after their cycle, which probably caused their

testosterone producing (Leydig) cells to become desensitized.

You may wind up with the same or lower T levels permanently after starting and

discontinuing Clomid. The same result may occur after starting and discontinuing

hCG. You may also end up elevating estradiol, since the testes also produce

estrogen.

At medicine's current stage, testosterone replacement therapy is for life. If

your T doesn't go higher, you might want to seek testosterone replacement

therapy. Without medical intervention, your T will continue to go down with age.

~Xian

> > Do you know if there's any risk in permenant suppression

> > from testosterone cream if Im only low normal, so wont be

> > using as much as poeple with actual low testostone? or if

> > there's the same risk with Clomid or HCG?

> > If its low now then Id like to treat it, but if there's

> > risk of permenant suppression, Id want to wait until thyroid

> > is optimal to see if testosterone comes up by itself.

> >

> > Thanks

> > Jonny

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

There is ZERO evidence and I mean Zero of any bounce back effect. If it did

indeed happen it would be a 'dead cat bounce'-- a little bit up from a low but

not and never highrer than it was before. You didn't say what 'LOW was

numericially but in my opinion it doesn't really matter. If YOU feel crappy A

you're not healing then you need more. As for shutting down your bodys

production forever - so what? One of my doctors voiced that concern. To which I

replied: At a total T of 157 it might as well shut down. And if it goes down

when I start TRT (how could we know?) who cares? Keep it coming until I reach

700 or when I feel optiomal which ever comes first. You care way to much about

the T and not enough about what its absence is doing to me.

WTR

>

> I have to sya something. SInce Testosterone plays a really BIg role in your

body, more research NEEDS to be done. I was jsut in voled in a car accident over

2 months ago, spliintered my tibia nd fibia. Its been put back tog ether 29th 10

pins and a plate andlast week the doc told me there is yet to be any evidence of

healing seen in the exray. WHY one big reason is my T levels are on the flor and

the T is necessary for those bones to heal. SEveral of my regular docs like my

PCP, Endovrin, Urologist have known about it for a while anad have just let it

soled ecuase they are all afraid to pick a treatment due to a severe. heart

attack i had 7 yrs ago. So now the orth surfeon said its going to take a LOT

longer, she sent me to an Ortho onvologist to sort out the metabolic problems,

inclusing the T. I will be lucky if it heals by December now That wil be 6

months. The doc said she should see signs int he xray indicating that its almost

healed already, isntead therer is theopposite. no evidence of an healing yet. I

am taking 4 pumps Andogel daily and have togo back for re-eval on the T, healing

etc 9-6-09

> Jim

> Re: Correcting low/normal testosterone? T 12, FSH

2.2, LH 3.7

>

>

> Jonny,

>

> I concur with Phil. Testosterone therapy is generally replacement, not

supplementation. You will only get away with using less T cream, injection,

Androgel, or whatever other source of T for about 2 weeks before the testes shut

down production, thereafter requiring the same replacement dose that other guys

are on (100 mg/wk or so testosterone for injections). There was someone in this

group who reported that his doctor tried to " kickstart " the testes into natural

production by allowing them to rest for a month and supplying exogenous

testosterone during that time, with the hope that when the month was over and

exogenous testosterone was discontinued, the testes would " rebound " (eventually)

and produce more than they were before their vacation. I've only read of this

and have not heard the factual, clinical basis of it.

>

> I believe there could be a risk of permanent suppression, though that is

speculation from a similar scenario but with different dosages. For bodybuilders

(using 5 x as much T as us, if not more), there is evidence that when they

discontinue using steroids and their " post cycle " recovery is over, they produce

less T than they did before their cycle. This was further compounded by using

huge quantities of hCG after their cycle, which probably caused their

testosterone producing (Leydig) cells to become desensitized.

>

> You may wind up with the same or lower T levels permanently after starting

and discontinuing Clomid. The same result may occur after starting and

discontinuing hCG. You may also end up elevating estradiol, since the testes

also produce estrogen.

>

> At medicine's current stage, testosterone replacement therapy is for life.

If your T doesn't go higher, you might want to seek testosterone replacement

therapy. Without medical intervention, your T will continue to go down with age.

>

> ~Xian

>

> > > Do you know if there's any risk in permenant suppression

> > > from testosterone cream if Im only low normal, so wont be

> > > using as much as poeple with actual low testostone? or if

> > > there's the same risk with Clomid or HCG?

> > > If its low now then Id like to treat it, but if there's

> > > risk of permenant suppression, Id want to wait until thyroid

> > > is optimal to see if testosterone comes up by itself.

> > >

> > > Thanks

> > > Jonny

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ------------------------------------

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

I am so dam sorry your going through this crap for one thing Testosterone is

good for your heart why do I say this I just am getting over Heart Bypass

sugary. My Heart Dr. was a Endo in Italy treating people for low hormones and

Pituitary problems like mine. When I seen him I was on TRT for 27 yrs he tried

to do a Coronary angioplasty but the blockage was very old and calcified and it

would not work. So he passed me off to a Heart Surgeon this Dr. took me off my

TRT and other hormones that I needed. In doing so it dam near killed me. My

first heart Dr. later told me had he known this Surgeon was going to do this he

would have stopped him. I was out could 17 weeks died 5 x's and had one

infection after the other a very long story.

But what I am trying to say here is your Dr.'s did not take care of you the

right ways. If your Testosterone levels were low this might be way you had a

heart attack in the first place you see the heart is a muscle and your body

needs Testosterone to keep your joints and muscles healthy.

We have a member here Reto he Sneezed and I think he broke 3 rips this is how he

found out he has low testosterone.

Your on a very low dose of Androgel taking this low dose for some men brings up

there Testosterone levels but most of us it lowers it. This happens because

your brain sees the T in your blood and stops sending the LH and FSH messages to

your Testis to make the Testosterone you were making before doing Andorgel. So

lets say your levels were at 300 you go on the gel they go up to 500 so the gel

upped your levels 200 points. Now your brain sees this and stops sending the

messages to your testis they stop working and all your left with is what the gel

is doing 200.

So all I am saying is you need to be retested in 2 weeks to be sure the gel is

getting though your skin and working. In your case I feel you need to stress

this point big time. You might need to take more androgle.

Also if your Cortisol levels are low do to all this you have been through your

not going to heal very fast. I have a bad bed sore on my butt and it's been 6

months that I have been out of the hosp. and it is still not healed. Make sure

you don't have Adrenal Insufficiency and I am not talking about 's. If

your cortisol morning fasting blood test is below 15 you should do a 4x's in a

day Saliva test to see how bad your levels are through out the day.

I am on Corter a HC med to support my adreanls one would start on this 2.5 mgs

and go up 2.5 mgs every 4 to 5 days until your doing 5 mgs 4x's a day when your

do this if your levels are low your healing will take off.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: Jim B <j-buscemi@...>

> Subject: Re: Correcting low/normal testosterone? T 12, FSH 2.2,

LH 3.7

>

> Date: Monday, August 10, 2009, 6:00 AM

> I have to sya something. SInce

> Testosterone plays a really BIg role in your body, more

> research NEEDS to be done. I was jsut in voled in a car

> accident over 2 months ago, spliintered my tibia nd fibia.

> Its been put back tog ether 29th 10  pins and a plate

> andlast week the doc told me there is yet to be any evidence

> of healing seen in the exray. WHY one big reason is my T

> levels are on the flor and the T is necessary for those

> bones to heal. SEveral of my regular docs like my PCP,

> Endovrin, Urologist have known about it for a while anad

> have just let it soled ecuase they are all afraid to pick a

> treatment due to a severe. heart attack i had 7 yrs ago. So

> now the orth surfeon said its going to take  a LOT

> longer, she sent me to an Ortho onvologist to sort out the

> metabolic problems, inclusing the T. I will be lucky if it

> heals by December now That wil be 6 months. The doc said she

> should see signs int he xray indicating that its almost

> healed already, isntead therer is theopposite. no evidence

> of an healing yet. I am taking 4 pumps Andogel daily and

> have togo back for re-eval on the T, healing etc 9-6-09

> Jim

>   Re: Correcting low/normal

> testosterone? T 12, FSH 2.2, LH 3.7

>

>

>     Jonny,

>

>   I concur with Phil. Testosterone therapy is

> generally replacement, not supplementation. You will only

> get away with using less T cream, injection, Androgel, or

> whatever other source of T for about 2 weeks before the

> testes shut down production, thereafter requiring the same

> replacement dose that other guys are on (100 mg/wk or so

> testosterone for injections). There was someone in this

> group who reported that his doctor tried to " kickstart " the

> testes into natural production by allowing them to rest for

> a month and supplying exogenous testosterone during that

> time, with the hope that when the month was over and

> exogenous testosterone was discontinued, the testes would

> " rebound " (eventually) and produce more than they were

> before their vacation. I've only read of this and have not

> heard the factual, clinical basis of it.

>

>   I believe there could be a risk of permanent

> suppression, though that is speculation from a similar

> scenario but with different dosages. For bodybuilders (using

> 5 x as much T as us, if not more), there is evidence that

> when they discontinue using steroids and their " post cycle "

> recovery is over, they produce less T than they did before

> their cycle. This was further compounded by using huge

> quantities of hCG after their cycle, which probably caused

> their testosterone producing (Leydig) cells to become

> desensitized.

>

>   You may wind up with the same or lower T levels

> permanently after starting and discontinuing Clomid. The

> same result may occur after starting and discontinuing hCG.

> You may also end up elevating estradiol, since the testes

> also produce estrogen.

>

>   At medicine's current stage, testosterone

> replacement therapy is for life. If your T doesn't go

> higher, you might want to seek testosterone replacement

> therapy. Without medical intervention, your T will continue

> to go down with age.

>

>   ~Xian

>

>   > > Do you know if there's any risk in

> permenant suppression

>   > > from testosterone cream if Im only low

> normal, so wont be

>   > > using as much as poeple with actual low

> testostone? or if

>   > > there's the same risk with Clomid or HCG?

>   > > If its low now then Id like to treat it,

> but if there's

>   > > risk of permenant suppression, Id want to

> wait until thyroid

>   > > is optimal to see if testosterone comes up

> by itself.

>   > >

>   > > Thanks

>   > > Jonny

>   > >

>   > >

>   > >

>   > > ------------------------------------

>   > >

>   > >

[Guest guest]

WTR,

I totally agree that I don't see a problem with permanent suppression so long as

one is prepared to stay on TRT for life. Assuming that this places one in a

better position than before. My concern echoed the view you addressed- the hope

of a " bounce back " or using T as a supplement, not for replacement.

~Xian

>

> There is ZERO evidence and I mean Zero of any bounce back effect. If it did

indeed happen it would be a 'dead cat bounce'-- a little bit up from a low but

not and never highrer than it was before. You didn't say what 'LOW was

numericially but in my opinion it doesn't really matter. If YOU feel crappy A

you're not healing then you need more. As for shutting down your bodys

production forever - so what? One of my doctors voiced that concern. To which I

replied: At a total T of 157 it might as well shut down. And if it goes down

when I start TRT (how could we know?) who cares? Keep it coming until I reach

700 or when I feel optiomal which ever comes first. You care way to much about

the T and not enough about what its absence is doing to me.

>

> WTR

> >