Re: What's Normal

[Guest guest]

Dan a dam good find Thanks.

Phil

Dan Meatheany <dmeatheany@...> wrote:

Here is a good write-up I found on the internet for what is a normal T range

and where it came from. My discussion question is at the end:

Arkansas

The “normal range” usually reported on a laboratory report runs from about 290

to 900 ng/dl. The problem with this “normal range” is that it is determined by

using a standard Gaussian distribution (bell-shaped curve) of all of the

patients who, at one time or another, for various reasons have had their blood

tested for testosterone. The lower number is equal to two standard deviations

below the average and the higher number two above it. Two standard deviations

means that if you are below the 290, then your testosterone level is in the

bottom 2.5 percent of all male testosterone levels. Unfortunately, most doctors

think that if the test value falls in the “normal” range, then there is no

problem. What they don’t understand is that the groups of men that form the

basis of this normal range at most laboratories are not homogeneous. They can be

80 years old, or 20 years old; they can be chronically ill, or very healthy;

they can be obese or thin; and they can be under

a great deal of stress or stress free. All of these conditions can profoundly

alter a man’s testosterone level.

The medical definition of hypogonadism generally uses a level below 300 ng/dl

because virtually all men below this range exhibit the signs and symptoms

discussed above. But what about a level of 350 or 450 ng/dl? The difference

between a man with this level and a man who meets the cut off for “hypogonadism”

is less than between him and a man with a level of 800 ng/dl. And what about the

average level of about 600; is it adequate or does a man with a level of 900

feel better, have denser bones, stronger muscles, and greater sexual potency? A

clue to the answer is thinking back to how you felt when you were 18 years old,

a time when testosterone levels run between about 800 and 1500. A more

scientific clue is the number of studies that have shown improvements in

strength, muscle, and libido when middle aged men with “normal” testosterone

levels have those levels boosted with TRT to the high end of normal or even

above that. Why then should a man be denied treatment

if his testosterone level is 500 ng/dl and has only a mild degree of decreased

libido and only slightly reduced musculature? This gets us to the heart of the

issue when debating the use of testosterone as an anti-aging therapy.

DISCUSSION QUESTION:

There really have been no long term scientific studies to address TRT for men.

This is a drug that is easily found to be (well I feel this good at say 600

ng/dl what about 800 or 1000 or 1200 - more is better). Once we get above the

average (600) we are in an area that has not been evaluated long term. Is it OK

to keep your body functioning on a 18 year old level long term? Or is the more

appropriate thing to do is keep it average or slightly above (600-800)? Since

most of us are giving ourselves shots and control what we shoot to some degree,

what is the right message to send out to people on this forum? Or, if you are

more mature (I didn't want to say old) - just kidding - are higher levels

appropriate to address joint pain?

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[Guest guest]

Hi everyone. I just joined the group today. I started T treatment

about 6 months ago after getting a " free T " test. I was at the bottom

of the range....8.9 I think. Initially, I felt a huge surge but have

since leveled off, and in fact, maybe gotten worse. Is this normal, or

is it just in my head. I have noticed more muscular development and

other signs, but the sex drive isn't quite there. I don't have a

performance issue, just a " drive " issue.

My follow-up visit last month showed a different test of 560, which the

urologist seemed pleased with.

Thanks.

Bill

[Guest guest]

Hi everyone. I just joined the group today. I started T treatment

about 6 months ago after getting a " free T " test. I was at the bottom

of the range....8.9 I think. Initially, I felt a huge surge but have

since leveled off, and in fact, maybe gotten worse. Is this normal, or

is it just in my head. I have noticed more muscular development and

other signs, but the sex drive isn't quite there. I don't have a

performance issue, just a " drive " issue.

My follow-up visit last month showed a different test of 560, which the

urologist seemed pleased with.

Thanks.

Bill

[Guest guest]

Hi Bill,

And Welcome what has your Dr. got you on if it is a gel like Androgel this

happens you go on a low does your levels go up on top of your base levels and

your brain sees the T meds in your blood and stops sending the messages to your

testis to make t. So you drop back down. One thing to start on T meds with one

test is not good thinking by your Dr. He needs to find out why your low in the

first place. It is dam hard to find out why your low after going on meds. Go

to the site www.allthingsmale.com and read TRT : A Recipe for Success and his

HCG Update. in the first part are tests you need and why.

Phil

BBA <bba@...> wrote:

Hi everyone. I just joined the group today. I started T treatment

about 6 months ago after getting a " free T " test. I was at the bottom

of the range....8.9 I think. Initially, I felt a huge surge but have

since leveled off, and in fact, maybe gotten worse. Is this normal, or

is it just in my head. I have noticed more muscular development and

other signs, but the sex drive isn't quite there. I don't have a

performance issue, just a " drive " issue.

My follow-up visit last month showed a different test of 560, which the

urologist seemed pleased with.

Thanks.

Bill

[Guest guest]

Dorset, England

Hi Bill

Welcome to the group.

Firstly just to answer your question ad lib, Yes it is normal for guys on TRT to

have such

feelings. However, to then say if something can be done far more information is

needed.

May I suggest that if you already have your test results then post them here. If

you only

have Free T level then I for one would say you should not have started TRT until

your

consultant had tested for reasons for being hypogondal. This affects future

treatments and

care.

Also an important part as this group is International - please quote

units. Diabetes UK

and the BMJ have recently issued warnings that Blood glucose monitors which have

had

units changed can result in harmful dosges of Insulin being applied. All the

manufacturers

are issuing free replacements where these older monitors can change units

without the

patient being aware. Here some of the hormones have different ways to be tested

giving

different ranges and so it could lead to wrong information being given which is

not helpful at

best!

Finally, what is your treatment, ie Gel, Cream (assuming USA), Injections or

tablets: Our

replies may well be quite different to your simple question to all these things.

Good to hear from you - Have a good day!

Kind regards,

On 13 Jun 2006 at 16:41, BBA wrote:

>

> Hi everyone. I just joined the group today. I started T treatment

> about 6 months ago after getting a " free T " test. I was at the bottom

> of the range....8.9 I think. Initially, I felt a huge surge but have

> since leveled off, and in fact, maybe gotten worse. Is this normal, or

> is it just in my head. I have noticed more muscular development and

> other signs, but the sex drive isn't quite there. I don't have a

> performance issue, just a " drive " issue.

>

> My follow-up visit last month showed a different test of 560, which the

> urologist seemed pleased with.

>

> Thanks.

>

> Bill

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Bill,

Greetings and welcome! You will find a lot of good friends on this

forum - men and some women very interested in providing wise counsel

and direction.

Could you ask your doctor for blood test results pre-T and your

latest results (both with ranges and measurements)? This will best

help us get a handle on your needs and issues.

Why a urologist and not an endocrinologist??

Blessings,

Bill

>

>

> Hi everyone. I just joined the group today. I started T

treatment

> about 6 months ago after getting a " free T " test. I was at the

bottom

> of the range....8.9 I think. Initially, I felt a huge surge but

have

> since leveled off, and in fact, maybe gotten worse. Is this

normal, or

> is it just in my head. I have noticed more muscular development

and

> other signs, but the sex drive isn't quite there. I don't have a

> performance issue, just a " drive " issue.

>

> My follow-up visit last month showed a different test of 560,

which the

> urologist seemed pleased with.

>

> Thanks.

>

> Bill

>

[Guest guest]

Hey Bill and welcome - As several have mentioned, we need your information to

make any educated suggestion. If your like most, your Doc probably started you

an a gel which is the safe thing for them to do - you can't overdose yourself

with the gel. Initially, you are making some level of T yourself and you just

added more externally. Your body will compensate by shutting down your

production in your testicles. You get that initial lift from the combination of

the two. You then get completely shutdown naturally and rely solely on the

external T. Most of the time if you are on a gel like androgel - you initially

get a 5 gram pack which usually is not enough for most. However we are all

different and react differently so you just have to try them. Get your

information and post it with why you felt like you needed TRT (weak erections,

low libido.......). For me, I experienced stronger and more frequent erections

and increased muscle and decreased fat first. The libido came

almost a full year later after " tweeking " my meds including the use of an

estrogen reducer and Cialis.

Hope this helps - Arkansas

williamb11 <no_reply > wrote:

Bill,

Greetings and welcome! You will find a lot of good friends on this

forum - men and some women very interested in providing wise counsel

and direction.

Could you ask your doctor for blood test results pre-T and your

latest results (both with ranges and measurements)? This will best

help us get a handle on your needs and issues.

Why a urologist and not an endocrinologist??

Blessings,

Bill

>

>

> Hi everyone. I just joined the group today. I started T

treatment

> about 6 months ago after getting a " free T " test. I was at the

bottom

> of the range....8.9 I think. Initially, I felt a huge surge but

have

> since leveled off, and in fact, maybe gotten worse. Is this

normal, or

> is it just in my head. I have noticed more muscular development

and

> other signs, but the sex drive isn't quite there. I don't have a

> performance issue, just a " drive " issue.

>

> My follow-up visit last month showed a different test of 560,

which the

> urologist seemed pleased with.

>

> Thanks.

>

> Bill

>

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