Feeling Bad Again

[Guest guest]

Hey guys.

For the past couple of weeks I've been feeling bad again: waking up

feeling unrested and groggy, and having poor energy, libido, and mood.

Around the time this started, I had cut back on the Arimidex and my

estradiol jumped to 70 (ref 0-53). So I assumed that I felt bad due

to the high estradiol. Well, I upped the Arimidex and got the

estradiol down to 24 on July 27. On that same day, my total T was

749, just before my injection. And I still feel crappy.

A theory I have is that my body is still recovering from the high

estradiol. I don't know the biochemistry that well, but maybe when my

estradiol was high, it drove up my SHBG as well, and maybe it's taking

a while for the SHBG to go down. And when the SHBG is high, it lowers

the free T.

Does anyone have any ideas on this? This is very frustrating - I

thought that I finally had this " feeling bad " stuff solved via TRT.

I'm primary, 38, 175 lbs., and I do 100 mg of T cyp per week (split

into two doses) and I do 0.5 mg Arimidex twice per week, and I do 250

IU HCG twice per week. My estradiol had been in the 10s before and I

felt good and had morning wood and a good libido.

Thanks,

Eugene

[Guest guest]

Hi Eugene I have been at it a long time trying to keep my E2 in check. My last

test I was 15 and my Dr. feels it drove down my IGF-1 and I have had some loss

of morning wood. So I stopped the Arimidex now I was doing .5mgs eveyday. So

I stopped for 3 days my dam E2 went up so fast I started having panic attacks.

It is dam hard to stay on top of this. Now I am in the process of cutting back

on my T shots my levels are going up to high as I get my Cortisol levels up. So

I am in for some ride. Yes going up to 70 will drive up SHBG and Free T will

come down. I have been down to 10 and felt fine good wood and all but Dr. says

this is not good stay over 15 better at 20. I feel if you can cut the .5 in

half and do a .25 3 x's a week you may find you will not go down so fast.

That’s the dam problem about this you can be to high feel like crap and bring it

down to fast and miss the morning wood so I feel your better off downing a lower

dose. And you need testing every 4

to 6 weeks to keep an eye on this once I did a test thinking I was to low and I

was to high. So it will take some time to get back and stablize.

Phil

eugenekeddy <eugenekeddy@...> wrote: Hey guys.

For the past couple of weeks I've been feeling bad again: waking up

feeling unrested and groggy, and having poor energy, libido, and mood.

Around the time this started, I had cut back on the Arimidex and my

estradiol jumped to 70 (ref 0-53). So I assumed that I felt bad due

to the high estradiol. Well, I upped the Arimidex and got the

estradiol down to 24 on July 27. On that same day, my total T was

749, just before my injection. And I still feel crappy.

A theory I have is that my body is still recovering from the high

estradiol. I don't know the biochemistry that well, but maybe when my

estradiol was high, it drove up my SHBG as well, and maybe it's taking

a while for the SHBG to go down. And when the SHBG is high, it lowers

the free T.

Does anyone have any ideas on this? This is very frustrating - I

thought that I finally had this " feeling bad " stuff solved via TRT.

I'm primary, 38, 175 lbs., and I do 100 mg of T cyp per week (split

into two doses) and I do 0.5 mg Arimidex twice per week, and I do 250

IU HCG twice per week. My estradiol had been in the 10s before and I

felt good and had morning wood and a good libido.

Thanks,

Eugene

[Guest guest]

Phil,

First of all, thanks so much (once again) for the great information

and advice. You are helping lots of people with your knowledge.

So what are some of the typical symptoms that a man with an estradiol

of 70 would have? I believe that in past posts you have mentioned

panic attacks, red face, feeling hot, sore nipples, etc. What about

just generally feeling like crap (fatigue, poor mood), like when one's

T is low? If so, is the mechanism this: high E2 leads to high SHBG,

which binds up the T, which leads to low free T, which leads to

feeling like crap?

Thanks,

Eugene

>

> Hi Eugene I have been at it a long time trying to keep my E2 in

check. My last test I was 15 and my Dr. feels it drove down my IGF-1

and I have had some loss of morning wood. So I stopped the Arimidex

now I was doing .5mgs eveyday. So I stopped for 3 days my dam E2 went

up so fast I started having panic attacks. It is dam hard to stay on

top of this. Now I am in the process of cutting back on my T shots my

levels are going up to high as I get my Cortisol levels up. So I am

in for some ride. Yes going up to 70 will drive up SHBG and Free T

will come down. I have been down to 10 and felt fine good wood and

all but Dr. says this is not good stay over 15 better at 20. I feel

if you can cut the .5 in half and do a .25 3 x's a week you may find

you will not go down so fast. That's the dam problem about this you

can be to high feel like crap and bring it down to fast and miss the

morning wood so I feel your better off downing a lower dose. And you

need testing every 4

> to 6 weeks to keep an eye on this once I did a test thinking I was

to low and I was to high. So it will take some time to get back and

stablize.

> Phil

[Guest guest]

Gee so many men have different problems but one other then the ones you site are

skin rashs. Yes you have feelings like you T is low but I call it brain fog. I

don't know about SHBG but I do know when your E2 is high it fills the cells up

with E2 and the T can't get in. This is way men older men with low T and high

E2 can bring there T levels up just getting E2 down and most don't need TRT.

http://www.medibolics.com/ArimidexBoostsTestosterone.htm

Phil

eugenekeddy <eugenekeddy@...> wrote:

Phil,

First of all, thanks so much (once again) for the great information

and advice. You are helping lots of people with your knowledge.

So what are some of the typical symptoms that a man with an estradiol

of 70 would have? I believe that in past posts you have mentioned

panic attacks, red face, feeling hot, sore nipples, etc. What about

just generally feeling like crap (fatigue, poor mood), like when one's

T is low? If so, is the mechanism this: high E2 leads to high SHBG,

which binds up the T, which leads to low free T, which leads to

feeling like crap?

Thanks,

Eugene

>

> Hi Eugene I have been at it a long time trying to keep my E2 in

check. My last test I was 15 and my Dr. feels it drove down my IGF-1

and I have had some loss of morning wood. So I stopped the Arimidex

now I was doing .5mgs eveyday. So I stopped for 3 days my dam E2 went

up so fast I started having panic attacks. It is dam hard to stay on

top of this. Now I am in the process of cutting back on my T shots my

levels are going up to high as I get my Cortisol levels up. So I am

in for some ride. Yes going up to 70 will drive up SHBG and Free T

will come down. I have been down to 10 and felt fine good wood and

all but Dr. says this is not good stay over 15 better at 20. I feel

if you can cut the .5 in half and do a .25 3 x's a week you may find

you will not go down so fast. That's the dam problem about this you

can be to high feel like crap and bring it down to fast and miss the

morning wood so I feel your better off downing a lower dose. And you

need testing every 4

> to 6 weeks to keep an eye on this once I did a test thinking I was

to low and I was to high. So it will take some time to get back and

stablize.

> Phil

[Guest guest]

***To recap at my last blood test on 3 grains of Armour my bloods were T4 9.8 andT3 5.8 Tsh 0.1.Well I have been having a great deal of pain in my knee joints, this isdefinitly worse, my thumb joints ara aching, for the last few days i have feltspaced out and have been having having palpitations and my thighs have beenhurting.Last night I took just 2 grains of Armour along with the T4 and the palpitationsand spaced out feeling have stopped i think....

Hi Lizzie,

I'd be interested what Sheila makes of your problem, but to my mind - if you feel spaced out on 3 grains and get palps, then that is too much for you.... If it were me, I would go down to 2 grains for a while and see if that helps. The thing is .... when the dose is too high, the body excretes it faster to try and prevent thyrotoxicosis and you are not getting the desired therapeutic effect.

The pain in your thighs could be from a lack of T3 or it might be a lack of Magnesium. I do get this very often, but supplementing with Magnesium helps me.

One other thought...You mentioned knee joint pain and pain in your thumb - do you perhaps suffer from Osteoarthritis? (are the ends of your finger joints thickening? Do you fingers feel stiff and painful at times?) .... this is how my Osteoarthritis started. The pain is particularly bad with changes in weather.... another possibility - have you got flat feet or slight hip dysplasia? Both can cause severe pain in the knee joints, but in mild cases can be corrected with inner soles that support the foot properly and align the hips.

If it were me, I would try the magnesium and reduce the Armour dosage to 2 grains and see what happens.

Best wishes,

[Guest guest]

f you are now taking the newly formulated Armour, it could be

that Lizzie, and the active thyroid hormone is not getting into your system.

There have been lots and lots of complaints about this throughout the world -

not just here in the UK. Perhaps you need to be changed to either Nature Throid

or Westhroid. Ask about this. the MHRA have stated that doctors can prescribe

the thyroid extracts Armour Thyroid, Nature Throid or Westhroid, but of course,

it is up to the individual doctors. Many do better on these other NDT tablets.

You do need to wait a bit longer to get the T4 into your system, and you might

need to increase it to 50mcgs, but wait and see what your next blood tests

show. However, your adrenals may need supplementing, so look into that, because

if they are not functioning properly, again, no amount of thyroid hormone

replacement will get absorbed into your cells.

Let your new Endocrinologist know about the problems people are

experiencing with the new Armour - the active ingredients are still the same,

but they have changed the amounts of Cellulose and Glucose in the fillers. It

is believed that there is too much cellulose that is stopping the active

ingredients from working.

Luv - Sheila

To recap at my last blood test on 3 grains of Armour my bloods were T4 9.8 and

T3 5.8 Tsh 0.1.

I increased to 3 1/4 grains but started to feel strange as though I could be on

too much. I came back down to 3 grains but my thigh pains which I have had all

along became more troublesome. So I decided to try the experiment of adding in

25 mcgs of T4. I have just been on them for 4 weeks, but i am not convinced

that I have seen an improvement, probably more the reverse but I have been

hanging on with it because i know it takes six weeks to get into the system.

Well I have been having a great deal of pain in my knee joints, this is

definitly worse, my thumb joints ara aching, for the last few days i have felt

spaced out and have been having having palpitations and my thighs have been

hurting.

Last night I took just 2 grains of Armour along with the T4 and the

palpitations and spaced out feeling have stopped i think, my temp has also come

up slightly to 36.8 but it had dropped to 36.5 at some stages so I think

perhaps my adrenal glands were struggling.

But last night and I don't think it is because I took less Armour, I could not

get to sleep because of the horrendous pains in my thighs it was unrelentless

aching a little like a cramp. I really am at a loss now as to what to do. Do I

carry on with the T4 or is it making me worse? do I stop the T4 and go back to

3 grains of Armour and take it from there?

I am due to see a different endo at the end of October as mine has now retired.

He has already given me a repeat prescription for armour thinking that I am on

3 1/4 grains. He is going to think I am some kind of mad woman when I have been

swapping and changing everything. I am beginning to think that maybe i need

Armour and T3 and not T4 as I would have expected to be seeing some kind of

improvement by now with the added T4.

Love Lizzie

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05:51:00

[Guest guest]

Hi Sheila

You may be correct it could be the newly formulated Armour, the symptoms became

worse as I started my second bottle of the new formula, ( both bottles had

exactly the same batch number), I thought that since I had been okay on one

bottle that it was working for me, but maybe not.

I know that my prescription for armour is at present at the hospital pharmacy

waiting to be filled, but I bet they can't get any. what would you suggest I do?

should I contact my endo's secretary and ask for it to be changed to

Naturthroid, do you think it would be acceptable for me to do this?

> f you are now taking the newly formulated Armour, it could be that Lizzie,

> and the active thyroid hormone is not getting into your system.

I am supplementing my adrenals with 3 NAE.

Thank you sheila, I feel so uncomfortable today with the leg cramps it's

horrible.

Love Lizzie

>

[Guest guest]

Hi

I do supplement with Magnesium but it dosen't seem to have made any difference

to me. Would I get symptoms from a lack of T3 with a level of 5.8?

I don't think I suffer from osteo-arthritis, no my finger joints are not

thickening but they do feel a little stiff at times.

thanks for your help.

Love Lizzie

>

[Guest guest]

I believe that nature Throid is quite difficult to get hold of

too, but ask the Secretary if the prescription can be changed to either

Westhroid or nature Throid. Both of these are hypo-allergenic, which is a good

thing in their favour Lizzie. This is what the majority of those who get their

natural desiccated thyroid extract prescription from the NHS are doing.

Luv - Sheila

Hi Sheila

You may be correct it could be the newly formulated Armour, the symptoms became

worse as I started my second bottle of the new formula, ( both bottles had

exactly the same batch number), I thought that since I had been okay on one

bottle that it was working for me, but maybe not.

I know that my prescription for armour is at present at the hospital pharmacy

waiting to be filled, but I bet they can't get any. what would you suggest I

do? should I contact my endo's secretary and ask for it to be changed to

Naturthroid, do you think it would be acceptable for me to do this?

> f you are now taking the newly formulated Armour, it could be that Lizzie,

> and the active thyroid hormone is not getting into your system.

I am supplementing my adrenals with 3 NAE.

[Guest guest]

***--- > I do supplement with Magnesium but it dosen't seem to have made any difference to me. Would I get symptoms from a lack of T3 with a level of 5.8?> > I don't think I suffer from osteo-arthritis, no my finger joints are not thickening but they do feel a little stiff at times.

Hi Lizzie,

Sheila is very likely right and it is down to the new formulation Armour and if possible, it would be a good idea to have the prescription changed to Naturethroid or Westhroid (which is the same apparently) or one of the generic NDTs.

Bear in mind that thyroid medication stays in the body for a long time and reduces gradually. I don't know when your last T3 test had been done, but just because it was 5.8 then, does not mean it's still that high. T3 reduces quicker than T4 and is apparently difficult to 'get at ' in the new formulation - When I first took the 'new Armour', I felt fine for about the first 4 weeks, and then my hypo symptoms came back with a vengeance.

For the magnesium to be effective, I have to take at least 300 mg per day (2x150) of the magnesium citrate and some evenings I still have to add another pill because of the pain in my thighs - but perhaps in your case it really is all down to the new Armour and consequent lack of T3.

Glad to hear that you don't have osteoarthritis.... it's not nice, and quite painful

Best wishes,

[Guest guest]

I have just written to Dr M's secretary and asked to have my prescription

changed. Please keep your fingers crossed for me.

Love Lizzie

> I believe that nature Throid is quite difficult to get hold of too, but ask

> the Secretary if the prescription can be changed to either Westhroid or

> nature Throid. Both of these are hypo-allergenic, which is a good thing in

> their favour Lizzie. This is what the majority of those who get their

> natural desiccated thyroid extract prescription from the NHS are doing.

>