Re: Testosterone injection site soreness

[Guest guest]

I use a 28ga needle, don't get any redness, but sometimes a little bruise.

The redness might be a reaction. My T also has cottonseed oil.

What size needle are you using??

Neil

Mike Lawson wrote:

>

> Hi folks,

>

> I've just recently started on TRT. I alcohol swab the vial,

> and the injection site, draw about .7 cc into the syringe,

> bush .2 back to get rid of all the bubbles, inject into the

> muscle on the outside of the thigh, just above the knee,

> then press another alcohol swab against the injection

> site for about a minute.

>

> I don't think I'm doing it wrong, but I do get some redness

> and it gets really sore. The depot testosterone comes

> from a compounding pharmacy and I think it is prepared

> in cotton seed oil. I've asked that the next refill be prepared

> in another oil in case I'm allergic to the cotton seed oil.

>

> Anybody have any advice on this?

>

> Thanks,

>

> -Mike

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> No virus found in this incoming message.

> Checked by AVG.

> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.10/1549 - Release Date: 7/12/2008

4:31 PM

>

[Guest guest]

You might be having a reaction to the oil. For my first month or so my leg

muscles got really sore for a few days. I really noticed it on my right leg.

After a month or two, I didn't get any pain at all. I never get any redness. At

most I get a small dot of blood on the swab from nicking a vessel on the way

down.

Testosterone injection site soreness

Hi folks,

I've just recently started on TRT. I alcohol swab the vial,

and the injection site, draw about .7 cc into the syringe,

bush .2 back to get rid of all the bubbles, inject into the

muscle on the outside of the thigh, just above the knee,

then press another alcohol swab against the injection

site for about a minute.

I don't think I'm doing it wrong, but I do get some redness

and it gets really sore. The depot testosterone comes

from a compounding pharmacy and I think it is prepared

in cotton seed oil. I've asked that the next refill be prepared

in another oil in case I'm allergic to the cotton seed oil.

Anybody have any advice on this?

Thanks,

-Mike

[Guest guest]

Wow, 28g! I thought I was being a little bit of a rebel using a 25g. I draw

with a 21g and then inject with a 25g. You have to push pretty hard. You must

have forearms like Popeye!

Re: Testosterone injection site soreness

I use a 28ga needle, don't get any redness, but sometimes a little bruise.

The redness might be a reaction. My T also has cottonseed oil.

What size needle are you using??

Neil

Mike Lawson wrote:

>

> Hi folks,

>

> I've just recently started on TRT. I alcohol swab the vial,

> and the injection site, draw about .7 cc into the syringe,

> bush .2 back to get rid of all the bubbles, inject into the

> muscle on the outside of the thigh, just above the knee,

> then press another alcohol swab against the injection

> site for about a minute.

>

> I don't think I'm doing it wrong, but I do get some redness

> and it gets really sore. The depot testosterone comes

> from a compounding pharmacy and I think it is prepared

> in cotton seed oil. I've asked that the next refill be prepared

> in another oil in case I'm allergic to the cotton seed oil.

>

> Anybody have any advice on this?

>

> Thanks,

>

> -Mike

>

>

> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

>

> No virus found in this incoming message.

> Checked by AVG.

> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.10/1549 - Release Date: 7/12/2008

4:31 PM

>

[Guest guest]

This brings up another question. Do you guys inject air into the vial before

drawing?

Re: Testosterone injection site soreness

I use a 28ga needle, don't get any redness, but sometimes a little bruise.

The redness might be a reaction. My T also has cottonseed oil.

What size needle are you using??

Neil

Mike Lawson wrote:

>

> Hi folks,

>

> I've just recently started on TRT. I alcohol swab the vial,

> and the injection site, draw about .7 cc into the syringe,

> bush .2 back to get rid of all the bubbles, inject into the

> muscle on the outside of the thigh, just above the knee,

> then press another alcohol swab against the injection

> site for about a minute.

>

> I don't think I'm doing it wrong, but I do get some redness

> and it gets really sore. The depot testosterone comes

> from a compounding pharmacy and I think it is prepared

> in cotton seed oil. I've asked that the next refill be prepared

> in another oil in case I'm allergic to the cotton seed oil.

>

> Anybody have any advice on this?

>

> Thanks,

>

> -Mike

>

>

> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

>

> No virus found in this incoming message.

> Checked by AVG.

> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.10/1549 - Release Date: 7/12/2008

4:31 PM

>

[Guest guest]

What size needle do you use I us to use a 25g x 1 " lg needle was sore most of the

time. I now use a 27g 1ml. x 1/2 " lg. needle and shoot into my thigh no problems

now.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: Mike Lawson <mlawson66@...>

> Subject: Testosterone injection site soreness

>

> Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008, 9:32 AM

> Hi folks,

>

> I've just recently started on TRT. I alcohol swab the

> vial,

> and the injection site, draw about .7 cc into the syringe,

> bush .2 back to get rid of all the bubbles, inject into the

> muscle on the outside of the thigh, just above the knee,

> then press another alcohol swab against the injection

> site for about a minute.

>

> I don't think I'm doing it wrong, but I do get some

> redness

> and it gets really sore. The depot testosterone comes

> from a compounding pharmacy and I think it is prepared

> in cotton seed oil. I've asked that the next refill be

> prepared

> in another oil in case I'm allergic to the cotton seed

> oil.

>

> Anybody have any advice on this?

>

> Thanks,

>

> -Mike

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

I'm using a 25 gauge needle, and pushing the .5 cc in very slowly,

then pressing it in for about a minute afterwards.

Also, how long should I wait to work out the muscle group that

received the testosterone?

>

> I use a 28ga needle, don't get any redness, but sometimes a little bruise.

>

> The redness might be a reaction. My T also has cottonseed oil.

>

> What size needle are you using??

>

> Neil

[Guest guest]

I've asked them to send the next batch in olive oil, and

I'll try a smaller needle. The olive oil should be thinner

than the cotton seed oil, so the smaller gauge needle

shouldn't be a problem.

> You might be having a reaction to the oil. For my first month or so my leg

muscles got

really sore for a few days. I really noticed it on my right leg. After a month

or two, I didn't get

any pain at all. I never get any redness. At most I get a small dot of blood on

the swab from

nicking a vessel on the way down.

[Guest guest]

I use a 27g 1ml x 1/2 " lg needle all I do is pull the plunger all the way down

and hold takes about 2 min.'s for the oil to come out for a shot. No pain doing

this and I shoot into my thigh.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> >

> > Hi folks,

> >

> > I've just recently started on TRT. I alcohol swab

> the vial,

> > and the injection site, draw about .7 cc into the

> syringe,

> > bush .2 back to get rid of all the bubbles, inject

> into the

> > muscle on the outside of the thigh, just above the

> knee,

> > then press another alcohol swab against the injection

> > site for about a minute.

> >

> > I don't think I'm doing it wrong, but I do get

> some redness

> > and it gets really sore. The depot testosterone comes

> > from a compounding pharmacy and I think it is prepared

> > in cotton seed oil. I've asked that the next

> refill be prepared

> > in another oil in case I'm allergic to the cotton

> seed oil.

> >

> > Anybody have any advice on this?

> >

> > Thanks,

> >

> > -Mike

> >

> >

> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------

> --------- -

> >

> > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > Checked by AVG.

> > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.10/1549 -

> Release Date: 7/12/2008 4:31 PM

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yes I do what ever you taking out you should put in first with air.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> >

> > Hi folks,

> >

> > I've just recently started on TRT. I alcohol swab

> the vial,

> > and the injection site, draw about .7 cc into the

> syringe,

> > bush .2 back to get rid of all the bubbles, inject

> into the

> > muscle on the outside of the thigh, just above the

> knee,

> > then press another alcohol swab against the injection

> > site for about a minute.

> >

> > I don't think I'm doing it wrong, but I do get

> some redness

> > and it gets really sore. The depot testosterone comes

> > from a compounding pharmacy and I think it is prepared

> > in cotton seed oil. I've asked that the next

> refill be prepared

> > in another oil in case I'm allergic to the cotton

> seed oil.

> >

> > Anybody have any advice on this?

> >

> > Thanks,

> >

> > -Mike

> >

> >

> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------

> --------- -

> >

> > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > Checked by AVG.

> > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.10/1549 -

> Release Date: 7/12/2008 4:31 PM

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I just noticed that your T is in cottonseed oil too. is right,

you must have some strong hands to push that through a

28 gauge needle. Wouldn't want to arm wrestle you! :-)

>

> I use a 28ga needle, don't get any redness, but sometimes a little bruise.

>

> The redness might be a reaction. My T also has cottonseed oil.

>

> What size needle are you using??

>

> Neil

[Guest guest]

Cool, thanks Phil.

I'll look for 27 or 28 gauge needles.

> I use a 27g 1ml x 1/2 " lg needle all I do is pull the plunger all the way down

and hold

takes about 2 min.'s for the oil to come out for a shot. No pain doing this and

I shoot into

my thigh.

>

> Co-Moderator

> Phil

[Guest guest]

I do, but I was just following the instructions that came with my T.

>

> This brings up another question. Do you guys inject air into the vial before

drawing?

>

[Guest guest]

Definitely looking for 27 or 28 gauge needles.

Thanks guys!

> What size needle do you use I us to use a 25g x 1 " lg needle was sore most of

the time. I

now use a 27g 1ml. x 1/2 " lg. needle and shoot into my thigh no problems now.

>

> Co-Moderator

> Phil

>

[Guest guest]

Phil,

With a 1/2 " needle do you think you are getting into the muscle or SubQ?

Re: Testosterone injection site soreness

I use a 27g 1ml x 1/2 " lg needle all I do is pull the plunger all the way down

and hold takes about 2 min.'s for the oil to come out for a shot. No pain doing

this and I shoot into my thigh.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> >

> > Hi folks,

> >

> > I've just recently started on TRT. I alcohol swab

> the vial,

> > and the injection site, draw about .7 cc into the

> syringe,

> > bush .2 back to get rid of all the bubbles, inject

> into the

> > muscle on the outside of the thigh, just above the

> knee,

> > then press another alcohol swab against the injection

> > site for about a minute.

> >

> > I don't think I'm doing it wrong, but I do get

> some redness

> > and it gets really sore. The depot testosterone comes

> > from a compounding pharmacy and I think it is prepared

> > in cotton seed oil. I've asked that the next

> refill be prepared

> > in another oil in case I'm allergic to the cotton

> seed oil.

> >

> > Anybody have any advice on this?

> >

> > Thanks,

> >

> > -Mike

> >

> >

> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------

> --------- -

> >

> > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > Checked by AVG.

> > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.10/1549 -

> Release Date: 7/12/2008 4:31 PM

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Oh I am getting into the muscle but it does not matter a lot of guys are doing

there T shots SubQ now and there labs are good and there estradiol.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> > >

> > > Hi folks,

> > >

> > > I've just recently started on TRT. I alcohol

> swab

> > the vial,

> > > and the injection site, draw about .7 cc into the

> > syringe,

> > > bush .2 back to get rid of all the bubbles,

> inject

> > into the

> > > muscle on the outside of the thigh, just above

> the

> > knee,

> > > then press another alcohol swab against the

> injection

> > > site for about a minute.

> > >

> > > I don't think I'm doing it wrong, but I

> do get

> > some redness

> > > and it gets really sore. The depot testosterone

> comes

> > > from a compounding pharmacy and I think it is

> prepared

> > > in cotton seed oil. I've asked that the next

> > refill be prepared

> > > in another oil in case I'm allergic to the

> cotton

> > seed oil.

> > >

> > > Anybody have any advice on this?

> > >

> > > Thanks,

> > >

> > > -Mike

> > >

> > >

> > > ------------ --------- --------- ---------

> ---------

> > --------- -

> > >

> > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > Checked by AVG.

> > > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.10/1549

> -

> > Release Date: 7/12/2008 4:31 PM

> > >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Thanks Phil. I was just curious because I just started some allergy injections

and use a 27g 1/2 " 1CC needle. I could just use the same set up for both once my

other ones are gone. The other good thing is that the Drs. office sells the 27g

1/2 " for a pretty good price 25 for $6.60.

Re: Testosterone injection site soreness

Oh I am getting into the muscle but it does not matter a lot of guys are doing

there T shots SubQ now and there labs are good and there estradiol.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> > >

> > > Hi folks,

> > >

> > > I've just recently started on TRT. I alcohol

> swab

> > the vial,

> > > and the injection site, draw about .7 cc into the

> > syringe,

> > > bush .2 back to get rid of all the bubbles,

> inject

> > into the

> > > muscle on the outside of the thigh, just above

> the

> > knee,

> > > then press another alcohol swab against the

> injection

> > > site for about a minute.

> > >

> > > I don't think I'm doing it wrong, but I

> do get

> > some redness

> > > and it gets really sore. The depot testosterone

> comes

> > > from a compounding pharmacy and I think it is

> prepared

> > > in cotton seed oil. I've asked that the next

> > refill be prepared

> > > in another oil in case I'm allergic to the

> cotton

> > seed oil.

> > >

> > > Anybody have any advice on this?

> > >

> > > Thanks,

> > >

> > > -Mike

> > >

> > >

> > > ------------ --------- --------- ---------

> ---------

> > --------- -

> > >

> > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > Checked by AVG.

> > > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.10/1549

> -

> > Release Date: 7/12/2008 4:31 PM

> > >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I was getting 100 in a box for a co pay of $5.00 now my drug plain has changed

and they don't cover them anymore. I just got a 100 cost me $18.00. But this

was 28g x 1/2 " lg. and it takes to long to get the oil out of the vile. I use

them for my HCG shots.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> > > >

> > > > Hi folks,

> > > >

> > > > I've just recently started on TRT. I

> alcohol

> > swab

> > > the vial,

> > > > and the injection site, draw about .7 cc

> into the

> > > syringe,

> > > > bush .2 back to get rid of all the bubbles,

> > inject

> > > into the

> > > > muscle on the outside of the thigh, just

> above

> > the

> > > knee,

> > > > then press another alcohol swab against the

> > injection

> > > > site for about a minute.

> > > >

> > > > I don't think I'm doing it wrong,

> but I

> > do get

> > > some redness

> > > > and it gets really sore. The depot

> testosterone

> > comes

> > > > from a compounding pharmacy and I think it

> is

> > prepared

> > > > in cotton seed oil. I've asked that the

> next

> > > refill be prepared

> > > > in another oil in case I'm allergic to

> the

> > cotton

> > > seed oil.

> > > >

> > > > Anybody have any advice on this?

> > > >

> > > > Thanks,

> > > >

> > > > -Mike

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ------------ --------- --------- ---------

> > ---------

> > > --------- -

> > > >

> > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > > Checked by AVG.

> > > > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database:

> 270.4.10/1549

> > -

> > > Release Date: 7/12/2008 4:31 PM

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

> > >

> > >

> > > ------------ --------- --------- ------

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

My Endo originally wrote a few syringes on my prescription for TCyp. They cost

me 60cents each! I bought some online for around $18 for 100. This price only

looks good for anything 25g or bigger. Once you hit the small sizes they get

pretty expensive. This is through iMed.com. The 26cents each didn't sound too

bad for the 27g 1/2 " from my Dr. I am open to suggestions and links.

Re: Testosterone injection site soreness

I was getting 100 in a box for a co pay of $5.00 now my drug plain has changed

and they don't cover them anymore. I just got a 100 cost me $18.00. But this was

28g x 1/2 " lg. and it takes to long to get the oil out of the vile. I use them

for my HCG shots.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> > > >

> > > > Hi folks,

> > > >

> > > > I've just recently started on TRT. I

> alcohol

> > swab

> > > the vial,

> > > > and the injection site, draw about .7 cc

> into the

> > > syringe,

> > > > bush .2 back to get rid of all the bubbles,

> > inject

> > > into the

> > > > muscle on the outside of the thigh, just

> above

> > the

> > > knee,

> > > > then press another alcohol swab against the

> > injection

> > > > site for about a minute.

> > > >

> > > > I don't think I'm doing it wrong,

> but I

> > do get

> > > some redness

> > > > and it gets really sore. The depot

> testosterone

> > comes

> > > > from a compounding pharmacy and I think it

> is

> > prepared

> > > > in cotton seed oil. I've asked that the

> next

> > > refill be prepared

> > > > in another oil in case I'm allergic to

> the

> > cotton

> > > seed oil.

> > > >

> > > > Anybody have any advice on this?

> > > >

> > > > Thanks,

> > > >

> > > > -Mike

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ------------ --------- --------- ---------

> > ---------

> > > --------- -

> > > >

> > > > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > > > Checked by AVG.

> > > > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database:

> 270.4.10/1549

> > -

> > > Release Date: 7/12/2008 4:31 PM

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

> > >

> > >

> > > ------------ --------- --------- ------

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Hi Mike,

I think you will find the reason for your soreness is the alcohol

wipes. When you wipe after the injection it will sting like hell!!

into open flesh remember the good old iodine days? Also you may be

injecting when the alcohol is still wet on your flesh...let it dry

out first before injecting. Hope this helps you

Steve

>

> Hi folks,

>

> I've just recently started on TRT. I alcohol swab the vial,

> and the injection site, draw about .7 cc into the syringe,

> bush .2 back to get rid of all the bubbles, inject into the

> muscle on the outside of the thigh, just above the knee,

> then press another alcohol swab against the injection

> site for about a minute.

>

> I don't think I'm doing it wrong, but I do get some redness

> and it gets really sore. The depot testosterone comes

> from a compounding pharmacy and I think it is prepared

> in cotton seed oil. I've asked that the next refill be prepared

> in another oil in case I'm allergic to the cotton seed oil.

>

> Anybody have any advice on this?

>

> Thanks,

>

> -Mike

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Steve.

> I think you will find the reason for your soreness is the alcohol

> wipes. When you wipe after the injection it will sting like hell!!

> into open flesh remember the good old iodine days? Also you may be

> injecting when the alcohol is still wet on your flesh...let it dry

> out first before injecting. Hope this helps you

>

> Steve

[Guest guest]

Honestly, no...it's not hard to push at all.

Neil

Mike Lawson wrote:

>

> I just noticed that your T is in cottonseed oil too. is right,

> you must have some strong hands to push that through a

> 28 gauge needle. Wouldn't want to arm wrestle you! :-)

>

> >

> > I use a 28ga needle, don't get any redness, but sometimes a little

> bruise.

> >

> > The redness might be a reaction. My T also has cottonseed oil.

> >

> > What size needle are you using??

> >

> > Neil

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> No virus found in this incoming message.

> Checked by AVG.

> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.10/1549 - Release Date: 7/12/2008

4:31 PM

>

[Guest guest]

Same here, after the 25ga needle I was limping around. It hurt like hell.

Neil

philip georgian wrote:

>

> What size needle do you use I us to use a 25g x 1 " lg needle was sore

> most of the time. I now use a 27g 1ml. x 1/2 " lg. needle and shoot into

> my thigh no problems now.

>

> Co-Moderator

> Phil

>

>

>

> > From: Mike Lawson <mlawson66@...

> <mailto:mlawson66%40comcast.net>>

> > Subject: Testosterone injection site soreness

> >

> <mailto: %40>

> > Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008, 9:32 AM

> > Hi folks,

> >

> > I've just recently started on TRT. I alcohol swab the

> > vial,

> > and the injection site, draw about .7 cc into the syringe,

> > bush .2 back to get rid of all the bubbles, inject into the

> > muscle on the outside of the thigh, just above the knee,

> > then press another alcohol swab against the injection

> > site for about a minute.

> >

> > I don't think I'm doing it wrong, but I do get some

> > redness

> > and it gets really sore. The depot testosterone comes

> > from a compounding pharmacy and I think it is prepared

> > in cotton seed oil. I've asked that the next refill be

> > prepared

> > in another oil in case I'm allergic to the cotton seed

> > oil.

> >

> > Anybody have any advice on this?

> >

> > Thanks,

> >

> > -Mike

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

> >

> > I just noticed that your T is in cottonseed oil too. is right,

> > you must have some strong hands to push that through a

> > 28 gauge needle. Wouldn't want to arm wrestle you! :-)

> >

> > >

> > > I use a 28ga needle, don't get any redness, but sometimes a little

> > bruise.

> > >

> > > The redness might be a reaction. My T also has cottonseed oil.

> > >

> > > What size needle are you using??

> > >

> > > Neil

[Guest guest]

Most Drs. suggest a 23g for IM of testosterone. I used a 21g for months before

switching to a 25g. The 21g hurt at the start and then wasn't too bad. I can't

even feel the tiny 25g now.

Testosterone injection site soreness

> >

> <mailto:hypogonadis m2%40groups .com>

> > Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008, 9:32 AM

> > Hi folks,

> >

> > I've just recently started on TRT. I alcohol swab the

> > vial,

> > and the injection site, draw about .7 cc into the syringe,

> > bush .2 back to get rid of all the bubbles, inject into the

> > muscle on the outside of the thigh, just above the knee,

> > then press another alcohol swab against the injection

> > site for about a minute.

> >

> > I don't think I'm doing it wrong, but I do get some

> > redness

> > and it gets really sore. The depot testosterone comes

> > from a compounding pharmacy and I think it is prepared

> > in cotton seed oil. I've asked that the next refill be

> > prepared

> > in another oil in case I'm allergic to the cotton seed

> > oil.

> >

> > Anybody have any advice on this?

> >

> > Thanks,

> >

> > -Mike

> >

> >

> > ------------ --------- --------- ------

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

The testosterone has no memory of how it got into your body. My T level

went from 275 to 783 using a very small needle. I vote for less pain,

the smaller the better. Between the HCG and T shots I am shooting 5

times a week....smaller is better!

Very easy for the doctor to recommend a 21ga nail...it's not his ass

that will be limping around.

Neil

Thornton wrote:

>

> Most Drs. suggest a 23g for IM of testosterone. I used a 21g for

> months before switching to a 25g. The 21g hurt at the start and then

> wasn't too bad. I can't even feel the tiny 25g now.

>

> Testosterone injection site soreness

> > >

> > <mailto:hypogonadis m2%40groups .com>

> > > Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008, 9:32 AM

> > > Hi folks,

> > >

> > > I've just recently started on TRT. I alcohol swab the

> > > vial,

> > > and the injection site, draw about .7 cc into the syringe,

> > > bush .2 back to get rid of all the bubbles, inject into the

> > > muscle on the outside of the thigh, just above the knee,

> > > then press another alcohol swab against the injection

> > > site for about a minute.

> > >

> > > I don't think I'm doing it wrong, but I do get some

> > > redness

> > > and it gets really sore. The depot testosterone comes

> > > from a compounding pharmacy and I think it is prepared

> > > in cotton seed oil. I've asked that the next refill be

> > > prepared

> > > in another oil in case I'm allergic to the cotton seed

> > > oil.

> > >

> > > Anybody have any advice on this?

> > >

> > > Thanks,

> > >

> > > -Mike

> > >

> > >

> > > ------------ --------- --------- ------

> > >

> > >