Mental Health

[Guest guest]

Dear :

This is very interesting and very important as to mental

health. You have hit the key point as far as I am concerned! I was just

curious; have you ever read (or had other experiences with) Gurdjieff or

any of his pupils regarding the " I " (or in this case the " many I's " ) and

the idea of choice and free will? This work (especially in the writings of

Maurice Nicoll) has helped me to keep my head on as I struggle with Lyme

Disease (along with other material).

Thank you again for the excellent perspective.

Peace to you:

-Glen Wolfsen

At 03:33 AM 9/21/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>in regards to the quote below...

>the psychic cause of mental illness is the mis-identification of the " I " .

>the " I " is our choosing faculty. we are -properly understood- our

>ability to make choices at any given

>instant. this choosing faculty is available and usable at all

>instants up to death or unconsciousness.

>when we are not actively choosing we are abrogating our

>responcibility to ourselves.

>this choosing faculty becomes stronger in use, as in " exercising our

>free will " .

>this is a long subject.

>i will give you one mundane example:

>x shouts at y. y becomes angry and shouts at x.

>y says " x made me shout at him/her " .

>in reality x shouts at y and y chooses to shout at x.

>y says " x was wrong " .

>why than is y right to shout at x?

>y is allowing x to control his/her actions. y is abrogating

>responcibility and will not only suffer the

>consequences of his/her shouting, but will than blame these consequences on x.

>y will continue to complain about his/her results (fight escalation,

>social disruption) and

>how unfair life is or fume over x's actions.

>all the time y will NOT be choosing among the alternatives being

>presented at each coming moment.

>FOR INSTANCE: y gets into a car and starts to drive. y is so

>pre-occupied with with anger at x that

>y runs a red light and gets a ticket. does y learn? no, y now

>constructs an even longer scenario

>about how wrong x is and how x is responcible for this new injury.

>

>

>remember, the " i " is that part of us that has the ability to choose

>at any given instant -nothing else.

>when this faculty is not present- " we " are not existant.

>so, if you want to comment on this, consider that you are CHOOSING to

>write certain words at any given

>moment.

>

>

>

>

> >

> > " In each and every moment, we have the freedom to choose,

> >and every choice determines the direction of our lives "

> >Olivia Hoblitzelle

> >

>

>--

>sincerely

>william meyer

[Guest guest]

thank you glen

no gurdjeff, tho i am aware of these writings.

while i have presented a simple scenario, i have indicated there is a

lot more details.

here are a few i feel it incumbent to mention

not only do we experience external situations that are out of our

conscious control such as

actions by other people, mechanical breakdowns, inuries and

infections of our bodies etc etc,

but we also experience emotional states and thougts spontaneously

that are not of our conscious choosing.

some people claim these are all of our choosing, but it is not

neccesary to debate that.

what we do need to do is to take responcibility for our conscious

choices. in fact, our mental health

will expand as we " remain in the moment " and focus totally on the

choices present at each succeeding moment.

i have presented an x and y scenario, but it also applies to x and x.

x plays chess. x makes a move that x in the present believes was a

gross error several moves previous.

x now essentially gets angry at x's move in the past.

x in the present becomes depressed by the supposed diminishment of

free will in the present.

but, in reality, x has the same powers to choose and THE SAME

RESPONCIBILITY here in the present

as x had several moves ago -to make the best possible move given the

current situation.

for those of you who haven't done this, it is very interesting to

play a computer chess program and

" switch sides " where the computer plays your side now and vice-versa.

over and over again i tried this in a session and the computer

rapidly gained the upper hand in seemingly impossible positions.

situations i believed were hopeless became seemingly winning

situations in a few moves.

my point is not about winning or losing, but about the neccesity to

continue to choose as best we can.

in the end, we don't even know what is best for us under god -if you

will. we are responcible for those actionable choices that are

presented to us at any given moment.

this " envelope " shrinks and expands according to our point of view,

but it is nevertheless always present in consciousness as

consciousness IS the ability to choose.

in order to regain or improve one's mental health, it is neccesary to

quit BLAMING ourselves and others.

this allows us to free up our capacity to make choices in the

CONTINUING present.

it is completely true that if one has gotten used to not taking

responcibility for one's actions -

which is what actual society generally teaches- than one often is

convinced one has no free will.

i can promise that you will gain the awareness and ability to

exercise " free will " more and more

as you practice.

but it is neccesary to quit blaming and suspend any attempts at

universal judgement. this is

god's realm. stay in your realm.

>Dear :

>

> This is very interesting and very important as to mental

>health. You have hit the key point as far as I am concerned! I was just

>curious; have you ever read (or had other experiences with) Gurdjieff or

>any of his pupils regarding the " I " (or in this case the " many I's " ) and

>the idea of choice and free will? This work (especially in the writings of

>Maurice Nicoll) has helped me to keep my head on as I struggle with Lyme

>Disease (along with other material).

>

>Thank you again for the excellent perspective.

>

>Peace to you:

>-Glen Wolfsen

>

>At 03:33 AM 9/21/2002 -0400, you wrote:

>>in regards to the quote below...

>>the psychic cause of mental illness is the mis-identification of the " I " .

>>the " I " is our choosing faculty. we are -properly understood- our

>>ability to make choices at any given

>>instant. this choosing faculty is available and usable at all

>>instants up to death or unconsciousness.

>>when we are not actively choosing we are abrogating our

>>responcibility to ourselves.

>>this choosing faculty becomes stronger in use, as in " exercising our

>>free will " .

>>this is a long subject.

>>i will give you one mundane example:

>>x shouts at y. y becomes angry and shouts at x.

> >y says " x made me shout at him/her " .

>>in reality x shouts at y and y chooses to shout at x.

>>y says " x was wrong " .

>>why than is y right to shout at x?

>>y is allowing x to control his/her actions. y is abrogating

>>responcibility and will not only suffer the

>>consequences of his/her shouting, but will than blame these

>>consequences on x.

>>y will continue to complain about his/her results (fight escalation,

>>social disruption) and

>>how unfair life is or fume over x's actions.

>>all the time y will NOT be choosing among the alternatives being

>>presented at each coming moment.

>>FOR INSTANCE: y gets into a car and starts to drive. y is so

>>pre-occupied with with anger at x that

>>y runs a red light and gets a ticket. does y learn? no, y now

>>constructs an even longer scenario

>>about how wrong x is and how x is responcible for this new injury.

>>

>>

>>remember, the " i " is that part of us that has the ability to choose

>>at any given instant -nothing else.

>>when this faculty is not present- " we " are not existant.

>>so, if you want to comment on this, consider that you are CHOOSING to

>>write certain words at any given

>>moment.

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> >

>> > " In each and every moment, we have the freedom to choose,

>> >and every choice determines the direction of our lives "

>> >Olivia Hoblitzelle

>> >

>>

>>--

>>sincerely

>>william meyer

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

This is great! Thank you for the reminder that we are respondsible for our

own actions. Also, that no one can do anything to us that we do not allow.

God Bless, Gail

[Guest guest]

thank you gail for extending your love to me

first, as regards your comment:

> " This is great! Thank you for the reminder that we are respondsible for our

>own actions. Also, that no one can do anything to us that we do not allow.

>God Bless, Gail

i believe others can do things to us we do not desire they do.

however, i do not take responcibility

for what they do. i take responcibility for what i do. people will

act on me in relation to their needs and

conceptions. i " allow " them this freedom. i also allow myself the

freedom to determine how i act in relation

to them. as i initiate each action i get feedback and results. i

allow myself the opportunity to

than alter my behaviour according to these results.

while the process of healing takes time and my expression may have sounded dry

and analytical, i can add that i hope some of you have the belief and

courage to

to " forgive " yourselves and others for being essentially " alive " and human.

this includes me!

in my case i first had suicidal thoughts at the age of 11. my anger

was mainly expressed against myself.

we are imperfect mortals. we conceive of god as perfect. we are not god.

we live " under " god. there are infinite scenario's we can imagine of

perfection, but these

are all partial conceptions that do not take into account the

totality of experience and factors at

any given moment. only " god " has this full understanding and we

cannot have " god's " conception.

the process of letting go of blame of myself and others takes time,

but i sincerely hope

that i can continue this process and continue to be a better human being.

in my case i have been blessed with a housemate who is the best

" christian " i have ever encountered.

and he is not a " christian " . spiritual growth is not christian,

muslim, or any other religion or philosophy,

but it seems to me it is the courage to love ourselves, god, others,

and essentially the total process of

being alive and human. in this process nothing is ultimately good or

bad. rather we have the opportunity

and need to make decisions to the best of our present conception, to

ACT on them, and to continue to learn and modify that conception at

each instant.

god has created us out of love. love does not always give us what we

want at the moment.

the mortal world is imperfect from our limited conception. in god's

conception i have faith it is perfect.

i believe we have the opportunity to learn and grow spiritually and

become more fulfilled every moment.

these are empty words without love. for those of us that say " no one

loves me " , i say learn how

to understand and love yourself and others.

i use the word love, but i want to make it clear i use it as a verb-

that i conceptualize it as a state of

active learning and active acceptance of of the totality of our

experience at any given moment.

for many, they conceive of love as an emotional state. it is more

than this as i use it. i suppose i

>use it as the desire to more perfectly integrate my conciousness

>with the totality of life and experience.it is active, it requires

>courage (for me), and i define it as the path of spiritual growth.

--

sincerely

william meyer

[Guest guest]

My son has mental health issues and we are experiencing some success with

meds.

Jodi

In a message dated 7/4/2007 3:43:58 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,

writes:

3. mental health

Posted by: " aemsproll " aemsproll@... aemsproll

Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 4:30 pm ((PDT))

Anyone experienced any success with drug therapy for people with DS

who have mental health problems (bipolar, Borderline personality

disorder etc)?

************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Guest guest]

Polo I do hear you and am or was in the same boat. Today I still take Xanax but

..125 mgs at bed time and in the morning. I have walked around most of my life

with my feelings shut off. Do to a bad Child life but my bad life made me an

over achiever. Until I came down with low T then there was no way I could live

like this anymore.

Still I would not let this bother me I learned a long time ago if I can't do

anything about it don't worry about it.

Polo Gabi <spochet@...> wrote:

Hi all,

Recently I have been taking some 0.25 Xanax to help mamage high

levels of anxiety. As you all know, work and relationships are tough

to handle sometimes as the treatments adjusts or is modified. The

Xanax has provided an incredible amount of releif and is a fantastic

drug. Yet, as I used it and expended social activities I couldnt

help but notice that all these years I had been missing something. A

few days on Xanax has shown me that I was mentally damaged. Xanax

allows you get a glimpse of mental health and you can see, from the

distance what it means to be ok and not to deal with high levels of

anxiety which I had been dealing with all my life apparently. I was

not aware of it as pain had become so familiar. The result being a

lowering of all expecations and a strategy of avoidance for all

challenges that appeared completely out of reach. The people I hang

out with are involved in sports, politics, own businesses and are

very successful men. I cannot help but conclude that my condition

has damaged my life and prevented me from attaining a higher level

of acheivement. Or is that a camp out? The key here is human

interactions, or the law of attraction. A common trait among all

these men is their power to rally others around a common goal. How

can one do that when he barely manages not to shoot himself day

after day?! I wish there were a lesson to be learned about this " Out

of body " experience into the world of archeivers, but I am unsure at

this point. The forceful masculine aspect of life is about creation

and delivery. Creative force comes from self confidence and an

inherent ability to spread it around and build upon it. Even doubt

and challenges do help this kind of guys to grow and continue their

unstoppable chase to the top. Right now, as I face challenges at

work and in my relationship I cant help but notice the gap between

these guys (the ones who did not grow up with Hypo) and myself. It

seems harder to tolerate not for the pain and the difficulty to

handle stress but by the realization that no matter how hard I try I

always will be far bellow those who did not grow up with Hypo. I

will get over this rough pacth, but not completely, ever. Thank you

Xanax! Good luck guys.

Co-Moderator " Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see. "

Phil

---------------------------------

Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make your homepage.

[Guest guest]

It's in the Database Files section.

=======================================================

Romeo no, M.D. (831) 375-6655 395 Del Monte Ctr #305

Monterey, CA 93940 262 Eldorado Street #100 physician, psychiatrist,Behavioral

Neuroendocrinology and Immunology (831) 626-9094 fax

======================================================

Here is his web site.

http://definitivepsychiatry.com/services/services.html

Stephan Pochet <spochet@...> wrote:

Hi Guys,

Where can I find this Dr. no's info? Would it be in our files on here? I

agree with your comments on the mental health issue that low T can cause. Going

through your teens and twenties with low T and seeing your peers become men,

being athletic more mature has had a profound impact on my self esteem. I

recently tried Xanax which was an extraodinary thing. It releaved all anxiety

associated with these old demons. BUT, now I am hooked on that shit and slowly

trying to tapper down. Just lost my job and relationship may suffer if I dont

put my shit together soon. But got a new job, the gym sticking to the plan. Be

very careful about Xanax guys. It is not for everyone.

__________________________________________________________

Be a better friend, newshound, and

know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now.

http://mobile./;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

[Guest guest]

> Hi Guys,

>

> Where can I find this Dr. no's info? Would it be in our files

on here? I agree with your comments on the mental health issue that

low T can cause. Going through your teens and twenties with low T and

seeing your peers become men, being athletic more mature has had a

profound impact on my self esteem. I recently tried Xanax which was an

extraodinary thing. It releaved all anxiety associated with these old

demons. BUT, now I am hooked on that shit and slowly trying to tapper

down. Just lost my job and relationship may suffer if I dont put my

shit together soon. But got a new job, the gym sticking to the plan.

Be very careful about Xanax guys. It is not for everyone.

>

> __________________________________________________________

> Be a better friend, newshound, and

> know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now.

http://mobile./;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

>

>

[Guest guest]

For anyone looking, there is also a Dr. Patino in the Detroit

area. I know him personally as an ER Physician however, he's also

made a name for himslef as a hormone modulation specialist.

should find about any possible cause. The blood tests cover

everything necessary and then some. Our insurance covered all the

testing. http://www.renami.com

, " jimdetroit " <jmosrite@...> wrote:

>

>

> > Hi Guys,

> >

> > Where can I find this Dr. no's info? Would it be in our files

> on here? I agree with your comments on the mental health issue that

> low T can cause. Going through your teens and twenties with low T

and

> seeing your peers become men, being athletic more mature has had a

> profound impact on my self esteem. I recently tried Xanax which was

an

> extraodinary thing. It releaved all anxiety associated with these

old

> demons. BUT, now I am hooked on that shit and slowly trying to

tapper

> down. Just lost my job and relationship may suffer if I dont put my

> shit together soon. But got a new job, the gym sticking to the plan.

> Be very careful about Xanax guys. It is not for everyone.

> >

> > __________________________________________________________

> > Be a better friend, newshound, and

> > know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now.

> http://mobile./;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Pochet, I have had great success with half a dose of wellbutrin, 150 daily

and half a dose of effexor, 75 mg, also daily, then I supplement with a

couple of stablon, during the day, stablon is awesome, but must be ordered

on line from India, a french AD, not approved here in the states, but pretty

much approved in the remainder of the world, cost about eighty cents a pill,

but well worth it. Also a great anti anxiety, to offset anxiety from

wellbutrin, No sides.

I am fifteen years into leukemia, which among other things totally destroys

our feeling of well being. In my case, I take a hundred fifty units of hcg

every day, started taking it daily, and I have lost twenty pounds in a

couple months. taking it daily retards the urge to eat. I also take

quarter tab of arimidex, every two to three days to keep my estrogen in

check.

In my case, keeping my T and E level balanced, ie, thirty to one, and also

keeping a relatively high serotonin level with the aid of effexor and

stablon, I feel very much in control. Serotonin level dictates our feeling

of well being, ie ectasy, a loving drug, I take wellbutrin to offset cold

penis from effexor. Albeit, stablon does not harm labido. Effexor, and

most of the AD's sold in the states do. Too much serotonin gives me

shortness of breath and I vomit, if I take a full dose of effexor and

stablon, so I backed off to half a dose of each.

This cocktail may not work for you, but experiementing will get you there,

if you can get and stay in touch with your feelings. I am the most happy

guy to be such a sick bastard. I have pretty much exhausted all the

serotonin

helpers, xanax, paxil, on and on. If not for AD's, and the knowledge, I

have gleened from this users net, I would have turned out my lights a long

time ago.

" Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not;

nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not;

unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full

of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. "

Calvin Coolidge

kind regards david a

Re: Mental Health

>

>> Hi Guys,

>>

>> Where can I find this Dr. no's info? Would it be in our files

> on here? I agree with your comments on the mental health issue that

> low T can cause. Going through your teens and twenties with low T and

> seeing your peers become men, being athletic more mature has had a

> profound impact on my self esteem. I recently tried Xanax which was an

> extraodinary thing. It releaved all anxiety associated with these old

> demons. BUT, now I am hooked on that shit and slowly trying to tapper

> down. Just lost my job and relationship may suffer if I dont put my

> shit together soon. But got a new job, the gym sticking to the plan.

> Be very careful about Xanax guys. It is not for everyone.

>>

>> __________________________________________________________

>> Be a better friend, newshound, and

>> know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now.

> http://mobile./;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

>>

>>

[Guest guest]

My understanding was that Effexor was a serotonin reuptake inhibitor and

Stablon was a serotonin reuptake promoter/enhancer. Taking both isn't

something I would try.

Steve

appreciative dAVId wrote:

> Pochet, I have had great success with half a dose of wellbutrin, 150 daily

> and half a dose of effexor, 75 mg, also daily, then I supplement with a

> couple of stablon, during the day, stablon is awesome, but must be ordered

> on line from India, a french AD, not approved here in the states, but pretty

> much approved in the remainder of the world, cost about eighty cents a pill,

> but well worth it. Also a great anti anxiety, to offset anxiety from

> wellbutrin, No sides.

> I am fifteen years into leukemia, which among other things totally destroys

> our feeling of well being. In my case, I take a hundred fifty units of hcg

> every day, started taking it daily, and I have lost twenty pounds in a

> couple months. taking it daily retards the urge to eat. I also take

> quarter tab of arimidex, every two to three days to keep my estrogen in

> check.

> In my case, keeping my T and E level balanced, ie, thirty to one, and also

> keeping a relatively high serotonin level with the aid of effexor and

> stablon, I feel very much in control. Serotonin level dictates our feeling

> of well being, ie ectasy, a loving drug, I take wellbutrin to offset cold

> penis from effexor. Albeit, stablon does not harm labido. Effexor, and

> most of the AD's sold in the states do. Too much serotonin gives me

> shortness of breath and I vomit, if I take a full dose of effexor and

> stablon, so I backed off to half a dose of each.

> This cocktail may not work for you, but experiementing will get you there,

> if you can get and stay in touch with your feelings. I am the most happy

> guy to be such a sick bastard. I have pretty much exhausted all the

> serotonin

> helpers, xanax, paxil, on and on. If not for AD's, and the knowledge, I

> have gleened from this users net, I would have turned out my lights a long

> time ago.

--

Steve - dudescholar4@...

Take World's Smallest Political Quiz at

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html

" If a thousand old beliefs were ruined on our march

to truth we must still march on. " --Stopford

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the heads up, Steve, you are rite on, according to some

literature, but mostly noone truly understands why stablon even works, since

it is supposed to usher the reuptake of serotonin, why should it work?

In my case, the effexor and stablon seem synergistic and work extremly well

together. I have used stablon and a MAO inhibitor, no good, so I went with

effexor and stablon and wahoo. I personally take half a recommended dose

of each for adults, and I could not be more pleased. I also must add, I

forgot to take pregnenolone twice over the last couple of months, and both

times, for me it was a dismal day, so that dietary supplement, may be a key

ingredient for me. In the future, I will intentionally not take it and see

what happens.

Prior to becoming ill, three or four times a week, I would experience a

momentary feeling of how wonderful it was to just be alive. Now I have that

feeling everyday, and I am not dependent on anyone or anything to give me

that feeling, it just appears out of nowhere.

kind regards david a

Re: Re: Mental Health

> My understanding was that Effexor was a serotonin reuptake inhibitor and

> Stablon was a serotonin reuptake promoter/enhancer. Taking both isn't

> something I would try.

>

> Steve

>

> appreciative dAVId wrote:

>> Pochet, I have had great success with half a dose of wellbutrin, 150

>> daily

>> and half a dose of effexor, 75 mg, also daily, then I supplement with a

>> couple of stablon, during the day, stablon is awesome, but must be

>> ordered

>> on line from India, a french AD, not approved here in the states, but

>> pretty

>> much approved in the remainder of the world, cost about eighty cents a

>> pill,

>> but well worth it. Also a great anti anxiety, to offset anxiety from

>> wellbutrin, No sides.

>> I am fifteen years into leukemia, which among other things totally

>> destroys

>> our feeling of well being. In my case, I take a hundred fifty units of

>> hcg

>> every day, started taking it daily, and I have lost twenty pounds in a

>> couple months. taking it daily retards the urge to eat. I also take

>> quarter tab of arimidex, every two to three days to keep my estrogen in

>> check.

>> In my case, keeping my T and E level balanced, ie, thirty to one, and

>> also

>> keeping a relatively high serotonin level with the aid of effexor and

>> stablon, I feel very much in control. Serotonin level dictates our

>> feeling

>> of well being, ie ectasy, a loving drug, I take wellbutrin to offset cold

>> penis from effexor. Albeit, stablon does not harm labido. Effexor, and

>> most of the AD's sold in the states do. Too much serotonin gives me

>> shortness of breath and I vomit, if I take a full dose of effexor and

>> stablon, so I backed off to half a dose of each.

>> This cocktail may not work for you, but experiementing will get you

>> there,

>> if you can get and stay in touch with your feelings. I am the most happy

>> guy to be such a sick bastard. I have pretty much exhausted all the

>> serotonin

>> helpers, xanax, paxil, on and on. If not for AD's, and the knowledge, I

>> have gleened from this users net, I would have turned out my lights a

>> long

>> time ago.

>

> --

>

> Steve - dudescholar4@...

>

> Take World's Smallest Political Quiz at

> http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html

>

> " If a thousand old beliefs were ruined on our march

> to truth we must still march on. " --Stopford

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks everyone! Things will get better. Xanax is getting under control and

Prozac works well for me. Plus I got the gel the hcg the arimidex the DHEA the

Zinc. All that stuff works GREAT.

Thanks again so much for your support and info about Dr. no.

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

Be a better friend, newshound, and

know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now.

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[Guest guest]

Stephan I have been on Xanax for yrs. at one time was on a high dose 3 x's a

day. Today I take .125 mgs at bedtime come down to this dose many yrs. ago.

Once one has a panic attack things can set it off so easy so I find I can get

past the taking this dose.

Stephan Pochet <spochet@...> wrote: Thanks everyone! Things will

get better. Xanax is getting under control and Prozac works well for me. Plus I

got the gel the hcg the arimidex the DHEA the Zinc. All that stuff works GREAT.

Thanks again so much for your support and info about Dr. no.

__________________________________________________________

Be a better friend, newshound, and

know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now.

http://mobile./;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ