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Re: testosterone cream issues, Jeff

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Hi and Welcome,

I have a pituitary problems and I have to treat my low Testosterone, Thyroid,

Adrenals and Aldosteorne. I take Cortef for my low Adrenals, Armour for my

Thyroud and Florinef for my low Alsosterone so I am up on this and also help

people at my Men's Thyroid forum.

http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewforum.php?f=5

If I were you I would stop the HC cream you can't control how much your doing

this way. Is Jeff being treated by a Dr. or are you doing this on your own.

It's hard to find a Dr. that will treat this so stop the the cream and get some

Isocort it's sold OTC read this FAQ's about Adreanls we did some time ago in

this is everything you need to know. And how to start on Isocort or HC pills he

needs to work his way up to 8 pills a day say doing 2 every 4 hrs.

You can test sex hormones by Saliva labs they are not any good you need to do

them in blood.

You can find out how I got started doing this in this link.

http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewtopic.php?f=5 & t=24

First you need to get his adrenals supported you can check this by taking his

temps after being up 3 hrs then take it every 3 hrs 3x's add them up and div. by

3 this is his avg. If his temps go up or down more the 2ths his adreanls are

not supported and he would need to be on the Isocort longer. Once his Temps are

stable then add in more armour it's all in my link.

To help him feel better put some good Sea Salt in a glass of water first thing

in the morning and drink it. If this helps he can do this 3x's a day. I can't

say why the zinc did this how much and what kind did he use.

What kind of T cream is he on and what is the dose.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> > He had high estrogen on saliva labs and low cortisol

> and low

> > testosterone.

> > Not sure what to do next, he is still lacking energy,

> but better than

> > when we started. (HC cream, armour thyroid,

> testosterone cream). His

> TSH was 3.8, so after he had stable temps. at 20

> > mg. HC cream, I started him on armour (1/2 gr.). Very

> small

> > improvement. The real energy came when he started on

> 50 mg.

> > testosterone cream. But it wained after a bit, so we

> upped it to 75

> > mg. (But energy has wained again) Somewhere in there

> we upped the

> > thyroid to 3/4 gr. And, we also upped the HC cream to

> 25 mg. A few

> > weeks ago, with temps still low, we upped the armour

> to 1 gr. Temps

> > came up a little, still low, but after a few days

> dropped again. He

> > takes nettle root to help prevent the estrogen

> conversion, but can't

> > tell if it is working. Also, he started on zinc to

> also help stop the

> > estrogen conversion, but after a few days, he got hot

> flashes and

> > reduced urine flow (never has had a problem with

> that). So, we

> > stopped the zinc, and the problems stopped. So, what

> next? He still

> > needs more energy, and has low temps. His temps also

> fluctuate,

> > stable most but not all of the time. Is it possible he

> needs more of

> > all 3: HC, armour, and testosterone? How do you know

> where to start?

> > Thanks,

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

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Answers inserted below:

> If I were you I would stop the HC cream you can't control how much

your doing this way. Is Jeff being treated by a Dr. or are you doing

this on your own.

>

We did saliva labs at beginning. He was low in range for am, below

range for noon and 4 pm, in range for midnight. He was also low in

DHEA and testosterone, and high in estrogen. We showed it to his

doctor, he would only prescribe testosterone after labs (that showed

his TSH at 3.8). So doctor is prescribing testosterone cream, we do

HC cream and armour on our own.

> It's hard to find a Dr. that will treat this so stop the the cream

and get some Isocort it's sold OTC read this FAQ's about Adreanls we

did some time ago in this is everything you need to know. And how to

start on Isocort or HC pills he needs to work his way up to 8 pills a

day say doing 2 every 4 hrs.

>

I haven't heard of taking isocort when you are on as much as he is (25

mg. a day, been told to increase to 30 mg. because his temps are still

unstable).

> You can test sex hormones by Saliva labs they are not any good you

need to do them in blood.

>

Yes, that argument has already occurred, we won demanding serum, will

do in the next month or so to measure testosterone and estrogen. May

need a new doc (none here), when he runs the thyroid I'm sure he will

wonder what happened because armour makes TSH very low, this doc

doesn't like low TSH.

> You can find out how I got started doing this in this link.

> http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewtopic.php?f=5 & t=24

> First you need to get his adrenals supported you can check this by

taking his temps after being up 3 hrs then take it every 3 hrs 3x's

add them up and div. by 3 this is his avg. If his temps go up or down

more the 2ths his adreanls are not supported and he would need to be

on the Isocort longer. Once his Temps are stable then add in more

armour it's all in my link.

>

His temps became stable on 20 mg. HC cream in under a week. The

increase is to help stop the estrogen conversion. (low cortisol = high

estrogen)

> To help him feel better put some good Sea Salt in a glass of water

first thing in the morning and drink it. If this helps he can do this

3x's a day. I can't say why the zinc did this how much and what kind

did he use.

>

He takes 50 mg. iodoral, and real salt (salt loading).

> What kind of T cream is he on and what is the dose.

>

Bioidentical, 75 mg.

Thank you Phil!!

>

>

> > > He had high estrogen on saliva labs and low cortisol

> > and low

> > > testosterone.

> > > Not sure what to do next, he is still lacking energy,

> > but better than

> > > when we started. (HC cream, armour thyroid,

> > testosterone cream). His

> > TSH was 3.8, so after he had stable temps. at 20

> > > mg. HC cream, I started him on armour (1/2 gr.). Very

> > small

> > > improvement. The real energy came when he started on

> > 50 mg.

> > > testosterone cream. But it wained after a bit, so we

> > upped it to 75

> > > mg. (But energy has wained again) Somewhere in there

> > we upped the

> > > thyroid to 3/4 gr. And, we also upped the HC cream to

> > 25 mg. A few

> > > weeks ago, with temps still low, we upped the armour

> > to 1 gr. Temps

> > > came up a little, still low, but after a few days

> > dropped again. He

> > > takes nettle root to help prevent the estrogen

> > conversion, but can't

> > > tell if it is working. Also, he started on zinc to

> > also help stop the

> > > estrogen conversion, but after a few days, he got hot

> > flashes and

> > > reduced urine flow (never has had a problem with

> > that). So, we

> > > stopped the zinc, and the problems stopped. So, what

> > next? He still

> > > needs more energy, and has low temps. His temps also

> > fluctuate,

> > > stable most but not all of the time. Is it possible he

> > needs more of

> > > all 3: HC, armour, and testosterone? How do you know

> > where to start?

> > > Thanks,

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

> >

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If you can get this he needs Cortef or HC pills and you don't keep Estradiol

down by doing more HC who told you this. If anything high levels of Estradiol

will mess up ones cortisol and thyroid levels.

Dr.'s that try to dose meds of armour by TSH don't know what they are doing TSH

is the message sent to your Thyourd for more thyroid hormone so if your on

armour and still showing a level of TSH it means your need more Armour not less.

I keep my TSH at .14 r less read this link.

http://www.thyroid-info.com/articles/woliner.htm

To test Estradiol you need a senative test for men and if it's above 30 he needs

to get this down. If your Dr. would give him Arimidex this works the best if

not. Get some Indolplex/DIM it's sold OTC get this brand it works there is a

lot of junk out there.

http://www.myvitanet.com/indolplex-with-dim-60-tab-phytopharmica.html

All he would need to do is take one tablet at dinner time. If he tries this let

me know I can help him to not go to low.

IF by real salt you mean Table Salt stop this it's not anygod Sea Salt is best

you don't hurt your body on it.

http://www.celticseasalt.com/

Bottom line for testosterone levels he needs to get his Total and Free T levels

up into the upper 1/3 of his labs range for a young man and keep his Estradiol

down between 10 to 30 best at 20pg/ml for most men.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> > > > He had high estrogen on saliva labs and low

> cortisol

> > > and low

> > > > testosterone.

> > > > Not sure what to do next, he is still

> lacking energy,

> > > but better than

> > > > when we started. (HC cream, armour thyroid,

> > > testosterone cream). His

> > > TSH was 3.8, so after he had stable temps. at 20

> > > > mg. HC cream, I started him on armour (1/2

> gr.). Very

> > > small

> > > > improvement. The real energy came when he

> started on

> > > 50 mg.

> > > > testosterone cream. But it wained after a

> bit, so we

> > > upped it to 75

> > > > mg. (But energy has wained again) Somewhere

> in there

> > > we upped the

> > > > thyroid to 3/4 gr. And, we also upped the HC

> cream to

> > > 25 mg. A few

> > > > weeks ago, with temps still low, we upped

> the armour

> > > to 1 gr. Temps

> > > > came up a little, still low, but after a few

> days

> > > dropped again. He

> > > > takes nettle root to help prevent the

> estrogen

> > > conversion, but can't

> > > > tell if it is working. Also, he started on

> zinc to

> > > also help stop the

> > > > estrogen conversion, but after a few days,

> he got hot

> > > flashes and

> > > > reduced urine flow (never has had a problem

> with

> > > that). So, we

> > > > stopped the zinc, and the problems stopped.

> So, what

> > > next? He still

> > > > needs more energy, and has low temps. His

> temps also

> > > fluctuate,

> > > > stable most but not all of the time. Is it

> possible he

> > > needs more of

> > > > all 3: HC, armour, and testosterone? How do

> you know

> > > where to start?

> > > > Thanks,

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ------------------------------------

> > >

> > >

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Thank you, Phil,

I've been told DIM is a goitrigen (sp?), wouldn't that affect the

thyroid issue?

I know about the TSH thing, that is why I'm giving him some of my

armour, my TSH is .001 and I am not hyper.

I guess the next step is to order the DIM from your link if it won't

hurt his thyroid issues, then test estrogen in how long?

Thanks again,

> > > > > He had high estrogen on saliva labs and low

> > cortisol

> > > > and low

> > > > > testosterone.

> > > > > Not sure what to do next, he is still

> > lacking energy,

> > > > but better than

> > > > > when we started. (HC cream, armour thyroid,

> > > > testosterone cream). His

> > > > TSH was 3.8, so after he had stable temps. at 20

> > > > > mg. HC cream, I started him on armour (1/2

> > gr.). Very

> > > > small

> > > > > improvement. The real energy came when he

> > started on

> > > > 50 mg.

> > > > > testosterone cream. But it wained after a

> > bit, so we

> > > > upped it to 75

> > > > > mg. (But energy has wained again) Somewhere

> > in there

> > > > we upped the

> > > > > thyroid to 3/4 gr. And, we also upped the HC

> > cream to

> > > > 25 mg. A few

> > > > > weeks ago, with temps still low, we upped

> > the armour

> > > > to 1 gr. Temps

> > > > > came up a little, still low, but after a few

> > days

> > > > dropped again. He

> > > > > takes nettle root to help prevent the

> > estrogen

> > > > conversion, but can't

> > > > > tell if it is working. Also, he started on

> > zinc to

> > > > also help stop the

> > > > > estrogen conversion, but after a few days,

> > he got hot

> > > > flashes and

> > > > > reduced urine flow (never has had a problem

> > with

> > > > that). So, we

> > > > > stopped the zinc, and the problems stopped.

> > So, what

> > > > next? He still

> > > > > needs more energy, and has low temps. His

> > temps also

> > > > fluctuate,

> > > > > stable most but not all of the time. Is it

> > possible he

> > > > needs more of

> > > > > all 3: HC, armour, and testosterone? How do

> > you know

> > > > where to start?

> > > > > Thanks,

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ------------------------------------

> > > >

> > > >

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This is not a problem you can take DIM and it will not act on your thyroid.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: jeff_cline2003 <seacline98@...>

> Subject: Re: testosterone cream issues, Jeff

>

> Date: Thursday, November 13, 2008, 1:33 PM

> Thank you, Phil,

> I've been told DIM is a goitrigen (sp?), wouldn't

> that affect the

> thyroid issue?

>

> I know about the TSH thing, that is why I'm giving him

> some of my

> armour, my TSH is .001 and I am not hyper.

>

> I guess the next step is to order the DIM from your link if

> it won't

> hurt his thyroid issues, then test estrogen in how long?

>

> Thanks again,

>

>

>

> > > > > > He had high estrogen on saliva

> labs and low

> > > cortisol

> > > > > and low

> > > > > > testosterone.

> > > > > > Not sure what to do next, he is

> still

> > > lacking energy,

> > > > > but better than

> > > > > > when we started. (HC cream, armour

> thyroid,

> > > > > testosterone cream). His

> > > > > TSH was 3.8, so after he had stable

> temps. at 20

> > > > > > mg. HC cream, I started him on

> armour (1/2

> > > gr.). Very

> > > > > small

> > > > > > improvement. The real energy came

> when he

> > > started on

> > > > > 50 mg.

> > > > > > testosterone cream. But it wained

> after a

> > > bit, so we

> > > > > upped it to 75

> > > > > > mg. (But energy has wained again)

> Somewhere

> > > in there

> > > > > we upped the

> > > > > > thyroid to 3/4 gr. And, we also

> upped the HC

> > > cream to

> > > > > 25 mg. A few

> > > > > > weeks ago, with temps still low,

> we upped

> > > the armour

> > > > > to 1 gr. Temps

> > > > > > came up a little, still low, but

> after a few

> > > days

> > > > > dropped again. He

> > > > > > takes nettle root to help prevent

> the

> > > estrogen

> > > > > conversion, but can't

> > > > > > tell if it is working. Also, he

> started on

> > > zinc to

> > > > > also help stop the

> > > > > > estrogen conversion, but after a

> few days,

> > > he got hot

> > > > > flashes and

> > > > > > reduced urine flow (never has had

> a problem

> > > with

> > > > > that). So, we

> > > > > > stopped the zinc, and the problems

> stopped.

> > > So, what

> > > > > next? He still

> > > > > > needs more energy, and has low

> temps. His

> > > temps also

> > > > > fluctuate,

> > > > > > stable most but not all of the

> time. Is it

> > > possible he

> > > > > needs more of

> > > > > > all 3: HC, armour, and

> testosterone? How do

> > > you know

> > > > > where to start?

> > > > > > Thanks,

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > ------------------------------------

> > > > >

> > > > >

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Thank you, how long should he be on the DIM before he tests estrogen?

Thanks,

> > > > > > > He had high estrogen on saliva

> > labs and low

> > > > cortisol

> > > > > > and low

> > > > > > > testosterone.

> > > > > > > Not sure what to do next, he is

> > still

> > > > lacking energy,

> > > > > > but better than

> > > > > > > when we started. (HC cream, armour

> > thyroid,

> > > > > > testosterone cream). His

> > > > > > TSH was 3.8, so after he had stable

> > temps. at 20

> > > > > > > mg. HC cream, I started him on

> > armour (1/2

> > > > gr.). Very

> > > > > > small

> > > > > > > improvement. The real energy came

> > when he

> > > > started on

> > > > > > 50 mg.

> > > > > > > testosterone cream. But it wained

> > after a

> > > > bit, so we

> > > > > > upped it to 75

> > > > > > > mg. (But energy has wained again)

> > Somewhere

> > > > in there

> > > > > > we upped the

> > > > > > > thyroid to 3/4 gr. And, we also

> > upped the HC

> > > > cream to

> > > > > > 25 mg. A few

> > > > > > > weeks ago, with temps still low,

> > we upped

> > > > the armour

> > > > > > to 1 gr. Temps

> > > > > > > came up a little, still low, but

> > after a few

> > > > days

> > > > > > dropped again. He

> > > > > > > takes nettle root to help prevent

> > the

> > > > estrogen

> > > > > > conversion, but can't

> > > > > > > tell if it is working. Also, he

> > started on

> > > > zinc to

> > > > > > also help stop the

> > > > > > > estrogen conversion, but after a

> > few days,

> > > > he got hot

> > > > > > flashes and

> > > > > > > reduced urine flow (never has had

> > a problem

> > > > with

> > > > > > that). So, we

> > > > > > > stopped the zinc, and the problems

> > stopped.

> > > > So, what

> > > > > > next? He still

> > > > > > > needs more energy, and has low

> > temps. His

> > > > temps also

> > > > > > fluctuate,

> > > > > > > stable most but not all of the

> > time. Is it

> > > > possible he

> > > > > > needs more of

> > > > > > > all 3: HC, armour, and

> > testosterone? How do

> > > > you know

> > > > > > where to start?

> > > > > > > Thanks,

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ------------------------------------

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

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Here is what happens to most men with low testosterone and high Estradiol they

lose there involuntary nocturnal erections that appear during REM (Rapid Eye

Movement) sleep. Getting Estradiol down this comes back so when he gets them

back and they will be strong the kind that wake you up this means his levels of

Estradiol are at there best. So most of us men use this to gage not to go down

to low. So when this happens keep taking the DIM but is the erections stop stop

the DIM until they come back. That morning go back on the Indlolplex/DIM but

cut the tablet in half this dose works for most. As long as he is on TRT come

of it will convert into Estradiol so he would need this as long as he is on TRT.

Some men lose weight and workout building muscle back and get into good shape

when they do this most don't have high Estradiol anymore. But as we get older

there is not much you can do but take something to keep it down. So between

involuntary

nocturnal erections and labs this works great.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: jeff_cline2003 <seacline98@...>

> Subject: Re: testosterone cream issues, Jeff

>

> Date: Thursday, November 13, 2008, 5:31 PM

> Thank you, how long should he be on the DIM before he tests

> estrogen?

>

> Thanks,

>

>

>

>

> > > > > > > > He had high estrogen on

> saliva

> > > labs and low

> > > > > cortisol

> > > > > > > and low

> > > > > > > > testosterone.

> > > > > > > > Not sure what to do

> next, he is

> > > still

> > > > > lacking energy,

> > > > > > > but better than

> > > > > > > > when we started. (HC

> cream, armour

> > > thyroid,

> > > > > > > testosterone cream). His

> > > > > > > TSH was 3.8, so after he had

> stable

> > > temps. at 20

> > > > > > > > mg. HC cream, I started

> him on

> > > armour (1/2

> > > > > gr.). Very

> > > > > > > small

> > > > > > > > improvement. The real

> energy came

> > > when he

> > > > > started on

> > > > > > > 50 mg.

> > > > > > > > testosterone cream. But

> it wained

> > > after a

> > > > > bit, so we

> > > > > > > upped it to 75

> > > > > > > > mg. (But energy has

> wained again)

> > > Somewhere

> > > > > in there

> > > > > > > we upped the

> > > > > > > > thyroid to 3/4 gr. And,

> we also

> > > upped the HC

> > > > > cream to

> > > > > > > 25 mg. A few

> > > > > > > > weeks ago, with temps

> still low,

> > > we upped

> > > > > the armour

> > > > > > > to 1 gr. Temps

> > > > > > > > came up a little, still

> low, but

> > > after a few

> > > > > days

> > > > > > > dropped again. He

> > > > > > > > takes nettle root to

> help prevent

> > > the

> > > > > estrogen

> > > > > > > conversion, but can't

> > > > > > > > tell if it is working.

> Also, he

> > > started on

> > > > > zinc to

> > > > > > > also help stop the

> > > > > > > > estrogen conversion, but

> after a

> > > few days,

> > > > > he got hot

> > > > > > > flashes and

> > > > > > > > reduced urine flow

> (never has had

> > > a problem

> > > > > with

> > > > > > > that). So, we

> > > > > > > > stopped the zinc, and

> the problems

> > > stopped.

> > > > > So, what

> > > > > > > next? He still

> > > > > > > > needs more energy, and

> has low

> > > temps. His

> > > > > temps also

> > > > > > > fluctuate,

> > > > > > > > stable most but not all

> of the

> > > time. Is it

> > > > > possible he

> > > > > > > needs more of

> > > > > > > > all 3: HC, armour, and

> > > testosterone? How do

> > > > > you know

> > > > > > > where to start?

> > > > > > > > Thanks,

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> ------------------------------------

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

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Thanks Phil, the DIM is ordered, hopefully it will be here soon. This

company's prices are good, so I ordered almost all of our supplements

there.

Does he need to adjust (or go off) his testosterone cream when (or

before) he take this? After taking, are there signs he can know to

watch for that would tell him he needs to reduce cream. To refresh, he

is on 75 mg. testosterone cream. Also, is he supposed to take any time

off of the cream, cycling or something like that?

tks, sc

> > > > > > > > > He had high estrogen on

> > saliva

> > > > labs and low

> > > > > > cortisol

> > > > > > > > and low

> > > > > > > > > testosterone.

> > > > > > > > > Not sure what to do

> > next, he is

> > > > still

> > > > > > lacking energy,

> > > > > > > > but better than

> > > > > > > > > when we started. (HC

> > cream, armour

> > > > thyroid,

> > > > > > > > testosterone cream). His

> > > > > > > > TSH was 3.8, so after he had

> > stable

> > > > temps. at 20

> > > > > > > > > mg. HC cream, I started

> > him on

> > > > armour (1/2

> > > > > > gr.). Very

> > > > > > > > small

> > > > > > > > > improvement. The real

> > energy came

> > > > when he

> > > > > > started on

> > > > > > > > 50 mg.

> > > > > > > > > testosterone cream. But

> > it wained

> > > > after a

> > > > > > bit, so we

> > > > > > > > upped it to 75

> > > > > > > > > mg. (But energy has

> > wained again)

> > > > Somewhere

> > > > > > in there

> > > > > > > > we upped the

> > > > > > > > > thyroid to 3/4 gr. And,

> > we also

> > > > upped the HC

> > > > > > cream to

> > > > > > > > 25 mg. A few

> > > > > > > > > weeks ago, with temps

> > still low,

> > > > we upped

> > > > > > the armour

> > > > > > > > to 1 gr. Temps

> > > > > > > > > came up a little, still

> > low, but

> > > > after a few

> > > > > > days

> > > > > > > > dropped again. He

> > > > > > > > > takes nettle root to

> > help prevent

> > > > the

> > > > > > estrogen

> > > > > > > > conversion, but can't

> > > > > > > > > tell if it is working.

> > Also, he

> > > > started on

> > > > > > zinc to

> > > > > > > > also help stop the

> > > > > > > > > estrogen conversion, but

> > after a

> > > > few days,

> > > > > > he got hot

> > > > > > > > flashes and

> > > > > > > > > reduced urine flow

> > (never has had

> > > > a problem

> > > > > > with

> > > > > > > > that). So, we

> > > > > > > > > stopped the zinc, and

> > the problems

> > > > stopped.

> > > > > > So, what

> > > > > > > > next? He still

> > > > > > > > > needs more energy, and

> > has low

> > > > temps. His

> > > > > > temps also

> > > > > > > > fluctuate,

> > > > > > > > > stable most but not all

> > of the

> > > > time. Is it

> > > > > > possible he

> > > > > > > > needs more of

> > > > > > > > > all 3: HC, armour, and

> > > > testosterone? How do

> > > > > > you know

> > > > > > > > where to start?

> > > > > > > > > Thanks,

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > ------------------------------------

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

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No don't cycle the T cream or stop it when he starts on the DIM in about 2 weeks

he should feel much better and his involuntary nocturnal erections that appear

during REM (Rapid Eye Movement) sleep sould come back this means he is at a good

level. The next thing is just do labs when he is due for them and be sure to

test his Estradiol when he does them. If his Total and Free Testosterone levels

are up good into the upper 1/3 of his labs range and his Estradiol is down to

about 20 pg/ml this is all it takes. Now as time goes on his body will start to

undo damage done by having low testosterone and he will get better a little

everyday. This is a slow proccess.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: jeff_cline2003 <seacline98@...>

> Subject: Re: testosterone cream issues, Jeff

>

> Date: Wednesday, November 19, 2008, 11:58 AM

> Thanks Phil, the DIM is ordered, hopefully it will be here

> soon. This

> company's prices are good, so I ordered almost all of

> our supplements

> there.

>

> Does he need to adjust (or go off) his testosterone cream

> when (or

> before) he take this? After taking, are there signs he can

> know to

> watch for that would tell him he needs to reduce cream. To

> refresh, he

> is on 75 mg. testosterone cream. Also, is he supposed to

> take any time

> off of the cream, cycling or something like that?

>

> tks, sc

>

>

> > > > > > > > > > He had high

> estrogen on

> > > saliva

> > > > > labs and low

> > > > > > > cortisol

> > > > > > > > > and low

> > > > > > > > > > testosterone.

> > > > > > > > > > Not sure what

> to do

> > > next, he is

> > > > > still

> > > > > > > lacking energy,

> > > > > > > > > but better than

> > > > > > > > > > when we

> started. (HC

> > > cream, armour

> > > > > thyroid,

> > > > > > > > > testosterone

> cream). His

> > > > > > > > > TSH was 3.8, so

> after he had

> > > stable

> > > > > temps. at 20

> > > > > > > > > > mg. HC cream,

> I started

> > > him on

> > > > > armour (1/2

> > > > > > > gr.). Very

> > > > > > > > > small

> > > > > > > > > > improvement.

> The real

> > > energy came

> > > > > when he

> > > > > > > started on

> > > > > > > > > 50 mg.

> > > > > > > > > > testosterone

> cream. But

> > > it wained

> > > > > after a

> > > > > > > bit, so we

> > > > > > > > > upped it to 75

> > > > > > > > > > mg. (But

> energy has

> > > wained again)

> > > > > Somewhere

> > > > > > > in there

> > > > > > > > > we upped the

> > > > > > > > > > thyroid to 3/4

> gr. And,

> > > we also

> > > > > upped the HC

> > > > > > > cream to

> > > > > > > > > 25 mg. A few

> > > > > > > > > > weeks ago,

> with temps

> > > still low,

> > > > > we upped

> > > > > > > the armour

> > > > > > > > > to 1 gr. Temps

> > > > > > > > > > came up a

> little, still

> > > low, but

> > > > > after a few

> > > > > > > days

> > > > > > > > > dropped again. He

> > > > > > > > > > takes nettle

> root to

> > > help prevent

> > > > > the

> > > > > > > estrogen

> > > > > > > > > conversion, but

> can't

> > > > > > > > > > tell if it is

> working.

> > > Also, he

> > > > > started on

> > > > > > > zinc to

> > > > > > > > > also help stop the

> > > > > > > > > > estrogen

> conversion, but

> > > after a

> > > > > few days,

> > > > > > > he got hot

> > > > > > > > > flashes and

> > > > > > > > > > reduced urine

> flow

> > > (never has had

> > > > > a problem

> > > > > > > with

> > > > > > > > > that). So, we

> > > > > > > > > > stopped the

> zinc, and

> > > the problems

> > > > > stopped.

> > > > > > > So, what

> > > > > > > > > next? He still

> > > > > > > > > > needs more

> energy, and

> > > has low

> > > > > temps. His

> > > > > > > temps also

> > > > > > > > > fluctuate,

> > > > > > > > > > stable most

> but not all

> > > of the

> > > > > time. Is it

> > > > > > > possible he

> > > > > > > > > needs more of

> > > > > > > > > > all 3: HC,

> armour, and

> > > > > testosterone? How do

> > > > > > > you know

> > > > > > > > > where to start?

> > > > > > > > > > Thanks,

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > ------------------------------------

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

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What gets damaged with long term low testosterone? His TSH was 3.8

(hypo) and saliva test on cortisol and DHEA came in low. Do you think

low T caused this?

Also, there are two different tests for estrogen, there is specific

one for men, do you know what it is? Also, can you give a list of

recommended labs for him.

Tks, sc

> > > > > > > > > > > He had high

> > estrogen on

> > > > saliva

> > > > > > labs and low

> > > > > > > > cortisol

> > > > > > > > > > and low

> > > > > > > > > > > testosterone.

> > > > > > > > > > > Not sure what

> > to do

> > > > next, he is

> > > > > > still

> > > > > > > > lacking energy,

> > > > > > > > > > but better than

> > > > > > > > > > > when we

> > started. (HC

> > > > cream, armour

> > > > > > thyroid,

> > > > > > > > > > testosterone

> > cream). His

> > > > > > > > > > TSH was 3.8, so

> > after he had

> > > > stable

> > > > > > temps. at 20

> > > > > > > > > > > mg. HC cream,

> > I started

> > > > him on

> > > > > > armour (1/2

> > > > > > > > gr.). Very

> > > > > > > > > > small

> > > > > > > > > > > improvement.

> > The real

> > > > energy came

> > > > > > when he

> > > > > > > > started on

> > > > > > > > > > 50 mg.

> > > > > > > > > > > testosterone

> > cream. But

> > > > it wained

> > > > > > after a

> > > > > > > > bit, so we

> > > > > > > > > > upped it to 75

> > > > > > > > > > > mg. (But

> > energy has

> > > > wained again)

> > > > > > Somewhere

> > > > > > > > in there

> > > > > > > > > > we upped the

> > > > > > > > > > > thyroid to 3/4

> > gr. And,

> > > > we also

> > > > > > upped the HC

> > > > > > > > cream to

> > > > > > > > > > 25 mg. A few

> > > > > > > > > > > weeks ago,

> > with temps

> > > > still low,

> > > > > > we upped

> > > > > > > > the armour

> > > > > > > > > > to 1 gr. Temps

> > > > > > > > > > > came up a

> > little, still

> > > > low, but

> > > > > > after a few

> > > > > > > > days

> > > > > > > > > > dropped again. He

> > > > > > > > > > > takes nettle

> > root to

> > > > help prevent

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > estrogen

> > > > > > > > > > conversion, but

> > can't

> > > > > > > > > > > tell if it is

> > working.

> > > > Also, he

> > > > > > started on

> > > > > > > > zinc to

> > > > > > > > > > also help stop the

> > > > > > > > > > > estrogen

> > conversion, but

> > > > after a

> > > > > > few days,

> > > > > > > > he got hot

> > > > > > > > > > flashes and

> > > > > > > > > > > reduced urine

> > flow

> > > > (never has had

> > > > > > a problem

> > > > > > > > with

> > > > > > > > > > that). So, we

> > > > > > > > > > > stopped the

> > zinc, and

> > > > the problems

> > > > > > stopped.

> > > > > > > > So, what

> > > > > > > > > > next? He still

> > > > > > > > > > > needs more

> > energy, and

> > > > has low

> > > > > > temps. His

> > > > > > > > temps also

> > > > > > > > > > fluctuate,

> > > > > > > > > > > stable most

> > but not all

> > > > of the

> > > > > > time. Is it

> > > > > > > > possible he

> > > > > > > > > > needs more of

> > > > > > > > > > > all 3: HC,

> > armour, and

> > > > > > testosterone? How do

> > > > > > > > you know

> > > > > > > > > > where to start?

> > > > > > > > > > > Thanks,

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > ------------------------------------

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

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A lot of different things that happen to men and they are not the same for each

one. Things like joint pain and muscle loss, growing man boobs, Feeling of

Depression and Fatigue with brain fog. The big one is the lose of a mans libido

and sex life.

It's more like low Cortisol and Thyroid cause low T but one still needs to treat

it to fix Adrenal Fatigue and a Low Thyroid can take a long time.

Here is a link from my thyroid forum on labs I tell men to get.

http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewtopic.php?f=5 & t=7059

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: jeff_cline2003 <seacline98@...>

> Subject: Re: testosterone cream issues, Jeff

>

> Date: Wednesday, November 19, 2008, 5:04 PM

> What gets damaged with long term low testosterone? His TSH

> was 3.8

> (hypo) and saliva test on cortisol and DHEA came in low.

> Do you think

> low T caused this?

>

> Also, there are two different tests for estrogen, there is

> specific

> one for men, do you know what it is? Also, can you give a

> list of

> recommended labs for him.

>

> Tks, sc

>

>

>

>

> > > > > > > > > > > > He

> had high

> > > estrogen on

> > > > > saliva

> > > > > > > labs and low

> > > > > > > > > cortisol

> > > > > > > > > > > and low

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> testosterone.

> > > > > > > > > > > > Not

> sure what

> > > to do

> > > > > next, he is

> > > > > > > still

> > > > > > > > > lacking energy,

> > > > > > > > > > > but

> better than

> > > > > > > > > > > > when

> we

> > > started. (HC

> > > > > cream, armour

> > > > > > > thyroid,

> > > > > > > > > > >

> testosterone

> > > cream). His

> > > > > > > > > > > TSH was

> 3.8, so

> > > after he had

> > > > > stable

> > > > > > > temps. at 20

> > > > > > > > > > > > mg.

> HC cream,

> > > I started

> > > > > him on

> > > > > > > armour (1/2

> > > > > > > > > gr.). Very

> > > > > > > > > > > small

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> improvement.

> > > The real

> > > > > energy came

> > > > > > > when he

> > > > > > > > > started on

> > > > > > > > > > > 50 mg.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> testosterone

> > > cream. But

> > > > > it wained

> > > > > > > after a

> > > > > > > > > bit, so we

> > > > > > > > > > > upped it

> to 75

> > > > > > > > > > > > mg.

> (But

> > > energy has

> > > > > wained again)

> > > > > > > Somewhere

> > > > > > > > > in there

> > > > > > > > > > > we upped

> the

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> thyroid to 3/4

> > > gr. And,

> > > > > we also

> > > > > > > upped the HC

> > > > > > > > > cream to

> > > > > > > > > > > 25 mg. A

> few

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> weeks ago,

> > > with temps

> > > > > still low,

> > > > > > > we upped

> > > > > > > > > the armour

> > > > > > > > > > > to 1 gr.

> Temps

> > > > > > > > > > > > came

> up a

> > > little, still

> > > > > low, but

> > > > > > > after a few

> > > > > > > > > days

> > > > > > > > > > > dropped

> again. He

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> takes nettle

> > > root to

> > > > > help prevent

> > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > estrogen

> > > > > > > > > > >

> conversion, but

> > > can't

> > > > > > > > > > > > tell

> if it is

> > > working.

> > > > > Also, he

> > > > > > > started on

> > > > > > > > > zinc to

> > > > > > > > > > > also help

> stop the

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> estrogen

> > > conversion, but

> > > > > after a

> > > > > > > few days,

> > > > > > > > > he got hot

> > > > > > > > > > > flashes

> and

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> reduced urine

> > > flow

> > > > > (never has had

> > > > > > > a problem

> > > > > > > > > with

> > > > > > > > > > > that).

> So, we

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> stopped the

> > > zinc, and

> > > > > the problems

> > > > > > > stopped.

> > > > > > > > > So, what

> > > > > > > > > > > next? He

> still

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> needs more

> > > energy, and

> > > > > has low

> > > > > > > temps. His

> > > > > > > > > temps also

> > > > > > > > > > >

> fluctuate,

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> stable most

> > > but not all

> > > > > of the

> > > > > > > time. Is it

> > > > > > > > > possible he

> > > > > > > > > > > needs

> more of

> > > > > > > > > > > > all

> 3: HC,

> > > armour, and

> > > > > > > testosterone? How do

> > > > > > > > > you know

> > > > > > > > > > > where to

> start?

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> Thanks,

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > ------------------------------------

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> Groups Links

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > ------------------------------------

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

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So, you need both estrogens?

If you get the thyroid and adrenal issues better, can you go off of

testosterone? So, thyroid may be the culprit? All three are being

treated now.

He was sick in the hospital 2 yrs. ago with food poisoning, was given

Levaquin IV for a week, then 3 days oral, wondering if that took out

his thyroid?

tks, sc

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SC men need all the E's but the bad guy for us is Estradiol " E2 " keep this down

to about 20 pg/ml and the rest will follow.

I did a search on Levaquin and found people are having Adrenal and Thyroid

problems do to taking it read this link from this sea ch.

http://www.medications.com/effect/view/35248

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en & lr= & q=Levaquin+IV+%2BThyroid

I feel you need to find a Dr. that can look into this. I don't know if he gets

his Adrenals and Thyroid treated if he can come off TRT. He would need a Dr.

like Dr. www.allthingsmale.com to do this if he can't get one started again

I don't feel it can happen.

The thing about bad Adrenals and Thyroid causing low Testosterone is it takes so

dam long to treat Adreanls and Thyroid and with low Testosterone if you don't

treat this it's harder to treat Adrenals because of the stress of low

testosterone on the Adrenals. I know a few men treating there Adrenals and

Thyroid hoping there Testosterone levels will come up as this gets better. I

have yet to see this happen. One man his levels came up but only from a low

level to a higher low level so he still ended up on TRT.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: jeff_cline2003 <seacline98@...>

> Subject: Re: testosterone cream issues, Jeff

>

> Date: Wednesday, November 19, 2008, 9:50 PM

> So, you need both estrogens?

>

> If you get the thyroid and adrenal issues better, can you

> go off of

> testosterone? So, thyroid may be the culprit? All three

> are being

> treated now.

>

> He was sick in the hospital 2 yrs. ago with food poisoning,

> was given

> Levaquin IV for a week, then 3 days oral, wondering if that

> took out

> his thyroid?

>

> tks, sc

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

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OMG if you look at the links, it is the three things he is having

trouble with, adrenal, thyroid, T. And I told them not to give it to

him because it killed his mother...and came in the next day to see it

on the IV. You can get mad and upset, but what is done is done. Just

need to get his levels up so he feels better.

I completely agree with you to replace all hormones that are low. I'm

guessing that if thyroid and T levels are stabilized that he could

come off of HC, but only time can tell. Supposedly high estrogen

affects thyroid, we'll have to see if thyroid function is better when

estrogen comes down.

We are having a terrible time finding an affordable hormone doctor.

The prices are outrageous, the places demand using their expensive

labs even when our insurance would cover it at a lab near us.

So if anyone has a doctor they like in the SE, please let us know.

Thanks, SC

>

> > From: jeff_cline2003 <seacline98@...>

> > Subject: Re: testosterone cream issues, Jeff

> >

> > Date: Wednesday, November 19, 2008, 9:50 PM

> > So, you need both estrogens?

> >

> > If you get the thyroid and adrenal issues better, can you

> > go off of

> > testosterone? So, thyroid may be the culprit? All three

> > are being

> > treated now.

> >

> > He was sick in the hospital 2 yrs. ago with food poisoning,

> > was given

> > Levaquin IV for a week, then 3 days oral, wondering if that

> > took out

> > his thyroid?

> >

> > tks, sc

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

> >

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I have the same problems do to a bad pituitary gland so my body does not get

told to make hormones. So this can get tricky to treat here is a link to a good

read at my Thyroid Forum it is full of info and will help you big time it covers

all of this.

http://tinyurl.com/5aq84m

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: jeff_cline2003 <seacline98@...>

> Subject: Re: testosterone cream issues, Jeff

>

> Date: Friday, November 21, 2008, 1:00 AM

> OMG if you look at the links, it is the three things he is

> having

> trouble with, adrenal, thyroid, T. And I told them not to

> give it to

> him because it killed his mother...and came in the next day

> to see it

> on the IV. You can get mad and upset, but what is done is

> done. Just

> need to get his levels up so he feels better.

>

> I completely agree with you to replace all hormones that

> are low. I'm

> guessing that if thyroid and T levels are stabilized that

> he could

> come off of HC, but only time can tell. Supposedly high

> estrogen

> affects thyroid, we'll have to see if thyroid function

> is better when

> estrogen comes down.

>

> We are having a terrible time finding an affordable hormone

> doctor.

> The prices are outrageous, the places demand using their

> expensive

> labs even when our insurance would cover it at a lab near

> us.

>

> So if anyone has a doctor they like in the SE, please let

> us know.

> Thanks, SC

>

>

>

> >

> > > From: jeff_cline2003 <seacline98@...>

> > > Subject: Re: testosterone cream

> issues, Jeff

> > >

> > > Date: Wednesday, November 19, 2008, 9:50 PM

> > > So, you need both estrogens?

> > >

> > > If you get the thyroid and adrenal issues better,

> can you

> > > go off of

> > > testosterone? So, thyroid may be the culprit?

> All three

> > > are being

> > > treated now.

> > >

> > > He was sick in the hospital 2 yrs. ago with food

> poisoning,

> > > was given

> > > Levaquin IV for a week, then 3 days oral,

> wondering if that

> > > took out

> > > his thyroid?

> > >

> > > tks, sc

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ------------------------------------

> > >

> > >

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