DIM

[Guest guest]

im not taking arimidex...or any type of TRT. just looking to take Indolplex

with Dim to see if it can help.

Summers <rsummers@...> wrote: what's this Dim/Indoplex stuff and where can one buy it? it's

an aromatase (sp?) inhibitor right. ?-----

DIM (Diindolylmethane) is just the opposite; it is an *androgen*

inhibitor (androgen antagonist). I have never gotten the point of

taking DIM esp if one is already taking Arimidex and I very much

wonder if the DIM might not be compounding estradiol problems for many

guys on TRT.

http://tinyurl.com/7hnsa

[Guest guest]

im not taking arimidex...or any type of TRT. just looking to

take Indolplex with Dim to see if it can help.-----

Because DIM is an androgen antagonist, ie *anti*-androgen, I cannot

possibly see how it could help any man with low T or high E2 or both.

It is said that " DIM exhibits potent antiproliferative and

antiandrogenic properties in androgen-dependent human prostate cancer

cells " ** In other words if you have prostate cancer it may prevent

the spread by inhibiting testosterone. If you do not have an androgen-

dependent cancer I cannot imagine what benefit any man would stand to

gain from having their endogenous supply of testosterone lowered.

** http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=12665522 & dopt=Abstract

[Guest guest]

, I can't argue with your medical citation or conclusions from it,

but there seems to be so much anecdotal evidence here of the stuff

working great in conjunction with TRT.

> Re: DIM

>

>

> im not taking arimidex...or any type of TRT. just looking to

>take Indolplex with Dim to see if it can help.-----

>

>Because DIM is an androgen antagonist, ie *anti*-androgen, I cannot

>possibly see how it could help any man with low T or high E2 or both.

>

>It is said that " DIM exhibits potent antiproliferative and

>antiandrogenic properties in androgen-dependent human prostate cancer

>cells " ** In other words if you have prostate cancer it may prevent

>the spread by inhibiting testosterone. If you do not have an

>androgen- dependent cancer I cannot imagine what benefit any

>man would stand to

>gain from having their endogenous supply of testosterone lowered.

>

>** http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

>cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=12665522 & dopt=Abstract

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

good article my Dr. wants me to take both Indolplex/DIM and when needed

Arimidex. Lately I have had to do both to keep my E2 down. From what I

understand DIM converts E2 into good E's so the liver can get rid of it easier.

Arimidex blocks the converson of T in men to E2. The article talked about DIM

lowering DHT yet since I started adding HCG to my T shots my DHT went way up

over 2000 range 36 to 573 pg/ml. My Dr. feels that the HCG is causing my Testis

to make T and using to much of the HCG caused my T to convert into DHT. So now

we lowered the dose from 500 IU's 3 time a week to 250 IU the 5th and 6th days

after my shot. This brought my Total and Free T levels down but not that much.

So now he wants me to do the HCG 100 IU's 5 days a week starting on the 2nd. day

after my shot. IF DIM lowers DHT is did not do it for me.

Phil

Summers <rsummers@...> wrote:

what's this Dim/Indoplex stuff and where can one buy it? it's

an aromatase (sp?) inhibitor right. ?-----

DIM (Diindolylmethane) is just the opposite; it is an *androgen*

inhibitor (androgen antagonist). I have never gotten the point of

taking DIM esp if one is already taking Arimidex and I very much

wonder if the DIM might not be compounding estradiol problems for many

guys on TRT.

http://tinyurl.com/7hnsa

[Guest guest]

Jack do you have any symptoms of high E2 like sore and hard nipples, feeling hot

and having a red face and upper body. Do you still have morning wood and a good

libido. One should have there E2 Estradiol tested first before going on DIM.

Going to low is bad news ask .

Phil

Jack <rockin813@...> wrote:

im not taking arimidex...or any type of TRT. just looking to take Indolplex

with Dim to see if it can help.

Summers <rsummers@...> wrote: what's this Dim/Indoplex stuff and where can one buy it? it's

an aromatase (sp?) inhibitor right. ?-----

DIM (Diindolylmethane) is just the opposite; it is an *androgen*

inhibitor (androgen antagonist). I have never gotten the point of

taking DIM esp if one is already taking Arimidex and I very much

wonder if the DIM might not be compounding estradiol problems for many

guys on TRT.

http://tinyurl.com/7hnsa

[Guest guest]

have you read this.

http://www.dimfaq.com/index.htm

Here is how it works and I feel it is safer then Arimidex and so on.

http://www.dimfaq.com/site/diagram.htm

http://tinyurl.com/87dur

http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/showthread.php?t=134235700 & highlight=primer+hcg

http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/showthread.php?t=134235701 & highlight=primer+hcg

There are just to many men having dam good luck getting there E2 down using

DIM.

Phil

Summers <rsummers@...> wrote:

im not taking arimidex...or any type of TRT. just looking to

take Indolplex with Dim to see if it can help.-----

Because DIM is an androgen antagonist, ie *anti*-androgen, I cannot

possibly see how it could help any man with low T or high E2 or both.

It is said that " DIM exhibits potent antiproliferative and

antiandrogenic properties in androgen-dependent human prostate cancer

cells " ** In other words if you have prostate cancer it may prevent

the spread by inhibiting testosterone. If you do not have an androgen-

dependent cancer I cannot imagine what benefit any man would stand to

gain from having their endogenous supply of testosterone lowered.

** http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=12665522 & dopt=Abstract

[Guest guest]

I have symptoms of high E2...such as excess fat around my stomach and chest at

the same time having well defined arms, shoulders, back, etc. i work out

regularly and while i did cardio for a while i noticed my stomach/chest never

toned up while the rest of my body continues to do so. as for nipples, nothing

out of the ordinary. do get the hot feeling often while others don't. and also

feel bloated every now and than out of nowhere..just wake up one morning and my

stomach is so bloated...same with face..has the puffy look. as for morning

wood...very weak. libido is not there. i had one E2 test done after taking TRT

for 10 days or so...results came back at 17 which suggests i don't have a

problem..yet the symptoms are there. i took another E2 test last week after

being off TRT for 11 days...should get the results back here shortly along with

T levels and LH levels.

philip georgian <pmgamer18@...> wrote: Jack do you have any symptoms of

high E2 like sore and hard nipples, feeling hot and having a red face and upper

body. Do you still have morning wood and a good libido. One should have there

E2 Estradiol tested first before going on DIM. Going to low is bad news ask

.

Phil

Jack <rockin813@...> wrote:

im not taking arimidex...or any type of TRT. just looking to take Indolplex

with Dim to see if it can help.

Summers <rsummers@...> wrote: what's this Dim/Indoplex stuff and where can one buy it? it's

an aromatase (sp?) inhibitor right. ?-----

DIM (Diindolylmethane) is just the opposite; it is an *androgen*

inhibitor (androgen antagonist). I have never gotten the point of

taking DIM esp if one is already taking Arimidex and I very much

wonder if the DIM might not be compounding estradiol problems for many

guys on TRT.

http://tinyurl.com/7hnsa

[Guest guest]

have you read this... Here is how it

works and I feel it is safer then Arimidex and so on.---

I have read all the info at these links in the past when exploring

the option of DIM. None of the legitimate medical info contained in

these links makes a case for DIM as an inhibitor of E2. There are

descriptions of complicated chemical processes but none that suppress

aromatase.

-----From what I understand DIM converts E2 into good E's so the

liver can get rid of it easier.----

Yes, but it is *creating* estrogen in the first place, and inhibiting

testosterone in the process.

----- my Dr. wants me to take both Indolplex/DIM and when needed

Arimidex. Lately I have had to do both to keep my E2 down.----

It seems more likely to me that the DIM is raising your E2 making

arimidex necessary to bring it under control. This combination

sounds rather like taking a tranquilizer and a stimulant at the same

time; they are fighting each other.

I realize that Dr Crisler has helped many men with his willingness to

prescribe HCG, TRT and arimidex, and thus he has a well deserved

loyal following.

But that doesn't make him infallible. He was wrong about the half-

life of arimidex and his protocol for using an androgen antagonist as

an estrogen antagonist is not corroborated by any independent

research. Also he has changed his recommendations several times in

regard to DIM.

I'm definitely not saying he's not a good doctor, but I am

disagreeing with him on this particular point. There is no evidence

that either DIM or arimidex is a safer substance, but it is proven

fact that arimidex is a drug with the known purpose of preventing

conversion of T to E2.

[Guest guest]

Hi again.

What is the preffered DIM called and where can i get some of these

pills? I have tried anti E2 in the past with a bad result but im

thinking estrogen metabolism could be a completely different story.

So im gonna give it a try.

Thx

[Guest guest]

Co-Moderator

Phil

>

> >

> > >

> > > >I bought my Indolplex/DIM by PhytoPharmica

> here

> > >

> > >

> > > does anyone know if this supplement contains

> vitamin K?? My guess

> >is

> > > yes but don't know. If you are taking

> warfarin (coumadin) vitamin

> >K

> > > content MATTERS!

> >

> >This is the ingredient list listed on the bottle of the

> Indolplex/DIM

> >brand by PhytoPharmica if it helps:

> >

> >Supplement Facts

> >Serving Size: One (1) Tablet

> >Servings Per Container: 60

> >

> >Amount

> >Per Serving Daily

> >Value

> >Calcium

> >(As Calcium Carbonate) 340 mg 34%

> >A Proprietary Complex

> >(Indolplex Complex)

> >Modified Food Starch, 25 Percent Diindolylmethane

> (DIM), D-Alpha

> >Tocopheryl Succinate, Phosphatidylcholine (Soy), and

> Silicon Dioxide

> >120 mg **

> >

> >Indolplex and DIM are trademarks of and are licensed

> from

> >BioResponse, L.L.C.; U.S. patent 6,086,915.

> >** Daily Value Not Established. Percent Daily Values

> are based on a

> >2,000 calorie diet.

> >

> >Other Ingredients

> >Carnauba Wax, Cellulose, Magnesium Stearate, Modified

> Cellulose,

> >Modified Cellulose Gum, Silicon Dioxide, Soy Lecithin,

> Stearic Acid,

> >Titanium Dioxide

> >

> >My multi-vit has Vit K in it, and I wonder since

> Testosterone can

> >cause your blood to be too thick(I even have to do

> therapeutic

> >phlebotomies every now and then, since I can't

> donate blood due to

> >lyme disease) if I should get a multi-vitamin w/o Vit.K

> ?

>

>

> I saw this on the web but thanks. I e-mailed the company.

> hopefully

> i will get a reply.

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi not all men have this problem you just need to get blood labs on TRT when you

first go on them say every 8 weeks checking your T levels and CBC or blood some

give blood with this problem every 3 months some do aspirin.

If you do aspirin get the kind for heart smart that dose not harm your stomach.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: Ian Samson <iansamson3@...>

> Subject: Re: DIM

>

> Date: Tuesday, November 25, 2008, 10:41 AM

> " since Testosterone can cause your blood to be too

> thick "

> This is very interesting. I did not know this. If others

> concur with this

> statement, no wonder so many men experience MI (myocardial

> infarction) in

> other words, a heart attack! Thick blood clots easily.

>

> Now my question then is if Testosterone causes thickening

> of the blood, and

> Aspirin (and other derivatives) thins the blood, are

> thinning agents working

> against the Testosterone, thereby reducing its effect? If

> so, by how much,

> and should they be taken at opposite ends of the day, i.e.

> Testosterone in

> the morning and Aspirin (et.al.) in the evening?

>

> ids.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hello Phil, thanks for the advice. I hear you are undergoing coronary bypass

surgery tomorrow. I hope and pray everything goes well for you. It is MAJOR

surgery and one that is so difficult. The results are 50/50. I am also a

candidate for bypass surgery having had two myocardial infarctions in 2002 -

22 hours apart. It was really exciting stuff!

Anyway, best wishes for tomorrow. I hope all goes well.

Ian

2008/11/27 philip georgian <pmgamer18@...>

> Hi not all men have this problem you just need to get blood labs on TRT

> when you first go on them say every 8 weeks checking your T levels and CBC

> or blood some give blood with this problem every 3 months some do aspirin.

> If you do aspirin get the kind for heart smart that dose not harm your

> stomach.

>

> Co-Moderator

> Phil

>

>

>

> > From: Ian Samson <iansamson3@... <iansamson3%40gmail.com>>

>

> > Subject: Re: DIM

> > < %40>

> > Date: Tuesday, November 25, 2008, 10:41 AM

> > " since Testosterone can cause your blood to be too

> > thick "

> > This is very interesting. I did not know this. If others

> > concur with this

> > statement, no wonder so many men experience MI (myocardial

> > infarction) in

> > other words, a heart attack! Thick blood clots easily.

> >

> > Now my question then is if Testosterone causes thickening

> > of the blood, and

> > Aspirin (and other derivatives) thins the blood, are

> > thinning agents working

> > against the Testosterone, thereby reducing its effect? If

> > so, by how much,

> > and should they be taken at opposite ends of the day, i.e.

> > Testosterone in

> > the morning and Aspirin (et.al.) in the evening?

> >

> > ids.

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I can't say BioResponse DIM®, was added to the Dr.'s DIM that is at this web

site.

http://www.dimfaq.com/index.htm

When I was using it his DIM did nothing for a lot of guys. The only one that we

found that worked was Indolplex/DIM if it does not come on tablets it can get

killed in your stomach.

Some men say they open the caps and mix it with olive oil and this helps it get

passed the stomach.

BioResponse DIM®, came out long after I stopped using DIM. I stopped using it

because I found out I need a lot of T to get my levels up and keep them up. DIM

was not strong enough at that time to keep my Estradiol levels down.

Now I am finding out it was my low Cortisol levels at night when I sleep that

was making my T go into E2. Now I take 5mgs of HC at bedtime and my E2 is a lot

better now.

Co-Moderator

Phil

>

>

>

> > From: Mike L. <mikeydell25@...>

>

> > Subject: Re: Possible bad batch of T

>

> >

>

> > Date: Sunday, September 5, 2010, 11:45 AM

>

> > Is it possible that it's CC's? That

>

> > would be my only other guess. 300cc's the

>

> > first shot and 400cc's for the last 3 subsequent

> shots.

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > ________________________________

>

> > From: phil <phildude43@...>

>

> >

>

> > Sent: Sun, September 5, 2010 10:16:05 AM

>

> > Subject: Re: Possible bad batch of T

>

> >

>

> >   

>

> > 300 mcgs is such a small dose I doubt it could even

> be

>

> > measured in a syringe

>

> > even if it was extremely concentrated.It would have

> no

>

> > effect on you.Somewhere

>

> > there was some miscommuncation about the dosing.Phil

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > >

>

> > > > From: mikeydell25 <mikeydell25@...>

>

> > > > Subject: Possible bad batch

> of T

>

> > > >

>

> > > > Date: Saturday, September 4, 2010, 3:45 PM

>

> > > > My doctor gave me my fourth shot of

>

> > > > testosterone (400mcgs(?) in 12 weeks this

> past

>

> > Monday, by

>

> > > > Wednesday my left buttock was warm, very

> painful

>

> > to the

>

> > > > touch and it was very difficult to walk or

> even

>

> > sit. On

>

> > > > Thursday I received a call from his office

>

> > stating that I

>

> > > > needed to talk to the doc. He told me that

>

> > several people

>

> > > > had complained of similar symptoms and that

> he

>

> > believed he

>

> > > > had a 'bad 'batch' of testosterone. He

> prescribed

>

> > Cipro and

>

> > > > said he discarded the batch but sent a vial

> to a

>

> > lab for

>

> > > > testing. He said that in his 13 years of

>

> > administering shots

>

> > > > nothing like this has ever occurred.

>

> > > >

>

> > > > I'm feeling slightly better today, Saturday,

> but

>

> > not 100%

>

> > > > yet.

>

> > > >

>

> > > > Has anyone here ever experienced similar

> events

>

> > after

>

> > > > getting a shot and if so what were the

> short/long

>

> > term

>

> > > > effects if any?

>

> > > >

>

> > > >

>

> > > > I am relatively new to testosterone therapy

> so

>

> > please

>

> > > > excuse any ignorance.

>

> > > >

>

> > > > Thanks!

>

> > > >

>

> > > >

>

> > > >

>

> > > > ------------------------------------

>

> > > >

>

> > > >