Re: Re: subcutaneous testosterone injections

[Guest guest]

Yes He said my being so over weight he feels doing this will just drive up E2

levels and told me to use the smaller needle 27g x 1/2 " lg and shoot into my

thigh he felt it would work just the same. Here are some cut and posts on what

I have about this.

=======================================================================

I was corresponding with a patient of Dr. Eugene Shippen (THE TESTOSTERONE

SYNDROME) about Dr. Shippen's protocol. Apparently his preferred method of

testosterone replacement therapy in cases where he otherwise might have tried

pellets, creams or gels is now SUBCUTANEOUS testosterone injection. According to

this patient, unlike intramuscular injection, subcutaneous injection of a small

amount three times per week results in ultra stable levels and low estrogen

conversion. Apparently Shippen uses this method for his own testosterone

replacement. Not only does it work better than even pellets apparently but it's

dirt cheap compared to about any other method.

I was going to get pellets (hypopituitary) but now I wonder if I should try

this. I have two questions though:

1) Are there any studies on this method? I couldn't find any.

2) I don't doubt Shippen; the lab work of who knows how many patients would not

lie. But if it works so well, why the HELL wasn't this thought of and tested a

long time ago?? It seems like there is a big " DUH " factor here.

=======================================================================

I heard back from the patient of Dr. Shippen. He injects depo-testosterone

200mg/ml, .35 ml every 3 days into abdominal fat. He splits the injections into

two .18 ml injections which is .36 ml, and says this is because a tiny amount

will leak out of the injection site.

According to this patient, this dosing schedule leaves him with a stable 900

ng/dl total testosterone level and none of the high estrogen conversion

associated with large intramuscular injection.

Apparently Shippen is convinced enough that this is now his preferred method of

TRT. I know he starts by trying to get levels into the high normal range by

trying to get the body to make its own, but if TRT is called for apparently

subcutaneous injection is the first thing he prescribes.

Doug

==========================================================================

The following is a study.

==========================================================================

STABLE TESTOSTERONE LEVELS ACHIEVED

WITH SUBCUTANEOUS TESTOSTERONE

INJECTIONS

M.B. Greenspan, C.M. Chang

Division of Urology, Department of Surgery, McMaster University,

Hamilton, ON, Canada

Objectives: The preferred technique of androgen replacement

has been intramuscular (IM) testosterone, but wide

variations in testosterone levels are often seen. Subcutaneous

(SC) testosterone injection is a novel approach; however,

its physiological effects are unclear. We therefore investigated

the sustainability of stable testosterone levels using

SC therapy. Patients and methods: Between May and

September 2005, we conducted a small pilot study involving

10 male patients with symptomatic late-onset hypogonadism.

Every patient had been stable on TE 200 mg IM for

41 year. Patients were instructed to self-inject with

testosterone enanthate (TE) 100 mg SC (DELATESTRYL

200 mg/cc, Theramed Corp, Canada) into the anterior

abdomen once weekly. Some patients were down-titrated

to 50 mg based on their total testosterone (T) at 4 weeks.

Informed consent was obtained as SC testosterone administration

is not officially approved by Health Canada. T

levels were measured before and 24 hours after injection

during weeks 1, 2, 3, and 4, and 96 hours after injection

in week 6 and 8. At week 12, PSA, CBC, and T levels

were measured however; the week 12 data are still being

collected. Results: Prior to initiation of SC therapy, T

was 19.14+3.48 nmol/l, hemoglobin 15.8+1.3 g/dl, hematocrit

0.47+0.02, and PSA 1.05+0.65 ng/ml. During

the first 4 weeks, there was a steady increase in

pre-injection T from 19.14+3.48 to 23.89+9.15 nmol/l

(p¼0.1). However, after 8 weeks the post-injection T

(25.77+7.67 nmol/l) remained similar to that of week 1

(27.46+12.91 nmol/l). Patients tolerated this therapy with

no adverse effects. Conclusions: A once-week SC injection

of 50–100 mg of TE appears to achieve sustainable and

stable levels of physiological T. This technique offers

fewer physician visits and the use of smaller quantity of

medication, thus lower costs. However, the long term

clinical and physiological effects of this therapy need further

evaluation.

==========================================================================

All of the above are from this thread at MESO.

SWALE is Dr.

SUNKIST is a Dr.

1CC is a guy that posts here can't remember his nick for this site.

And I think that are 2 more Dr.'s in this thread.

http://tinyurl.com/3xkr52

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: justinjune65 <justinjune65@...>

> Subject: Re: subcutaneous testosterone injections

>

> Date: Tuesday, November 11, 2008, 10:44 AM

> Did your doctor tell you why he did not want you to inject

> subQ?

> I wonder if anyone else is using this method?

> My doctor belongs to bodylogicmd. I don't know if all

> their patients

> use sbuQ. It is working great for me, but I can't find

> much

> information about it on the internet and would like to hear

> if anyone

> else has had any experience using subQ injections.

>

>

> >

> > > From: <justinjune65@...>

> > > Subject: subcutaneous testosterone

> injections

> > >

> > > Date: Tuesday, November 11, 2008, 1:32 AM

> > > Does anyone else use subcutaneous testosterone

> injections?

> > > My doctor has me inject myself 3 times a week

> with 0.3ml

> > > testosteronecypionate 200mg/ml. I inject

> subcutaneously into

> > > the fat layer under the skin on my belly. It is

> really easy

> > > and painless and seems to work well. I use a very

> fine and

> > > short insulin syringe. It is a bit difficult to

> draw the oil

> > > into the syringe and takes quite a while maybe 2

> minutes or

> > > more. At first I did not think it would work, but

> the oil

> > > does actually slowly draw into the syringe.

> Injecting is

> > > very easy. I used to IMinject and this is a lot

> less painful

> > > and scary. It seems much safer and less invasive.

>

> > > Any thoughts?

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

> > >

> > >

> > > ------------------------------------

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Yes I put air in the amount of my shot then I pull the plunger all the way down

and hold it the oil comes out slow but in about a min or two I have my dose.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: x147902 <no_reply >

> Subject: Re: subcutaneous testosterone injections

>

> Date: Tuesday, November 11, 2008, 1:18 PM

>

> >

> > Does anyone else use subcutaneous testosterone

> injections?

> > My doctor has me inject myself 3 times a week with

> 0.3ml

> testosteronecypionate 200mg/ml. I inject subcutaneously

> into the fat

> layer under the skin on my belly. It is really easy and

> painless and

> seems to work well. I use a very fine and short insulin

> syringe. It is

> a bit difficult to draw the oil into the syringe and takes

> quite a

> while maybe 2 minutes or more. At first I did not think it

> would

> work, but the oil does actually slowly draw into the

> syringe.

> Injecting is very easy. I used to IMinject and this is a

> lot less

> painful and scary. It seems much safer and less invasive.

> > Any thoughts?

>

> My Dr. has me doing sub-q shots too. Do you inject air into

> the T

> before you draw? I use a 1cc syringe 27G by 5/8 "

> needle. I find it

> takes a good couple of minutes to draw my dose. It's

> test-cyp by .

> The injection is fairly painless. What I find difficult is

> the size of

> the syringe, the tabs could be larger but I guess it'll

> get better

> with practice.

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I am sure I have talked to you at other forums MESO or Dr. 's maybe even my

Thyroid forum at http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/

I see no problems doing your shots subQ I know a lot of men doing this and

having good results with it. I use the same needle your using for my HCG shots

and still I do them IM into my thigh.

Some things I see I would not do one is Progesterone this a cut and paste of

what Dr. says about doing this and to me he is one of the best male hormone

Dr.'s out there.

================================

But you can still reason things out, and apply good 'ol Farner's Logic.

There is not one valid study that proves men should take PROG. And many which

prove he should not.

Simple, irrefutable facts:

PROG elevates SHBG

Suppresses the HPTA

Causes gynocomastia

Causes impotence

....all feminizing features of a hormone.

__________________

www.AllThingsMale.com

Any information I may provide does not substitute for a proper medical

evaluation by a medical professional; nor does it constitute doctor/patient

relationship, or liability, in any way.

================================

The other is your doing 5mgs of Cortef only 2x's a day. In adrenal fatigue your

adrenals are over worked and need to rest to rebuild. So the best way to do

this is to take HC or Cortef enough to support your adrenals so they can rest

and heal. The best way to do this if taking HC is to take 5mgs of cortef 4x's a

day or every 4 hrs. This way your adrenals don't need to work much and you have

enough cortisol in using HC to support your body from morning to night. Here is

some links one is the best from Dr. Jefferies book " Safe Uses of Cortisol " and

the other is a FAQ's we did at STTM.

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/safe-uses/

http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewtopic.php?f=12 & t=256

As for Chrysin if this is a pill forget it most of it gets killed in the

stomach. Your better off doing Indolplex/DIM to keep Estradiol down or better

yet Arimidex most do well taking .25mgs every 3 days.

http://www.myvitanet.com/indolplex-with-dim-60-tab-phytopharmica.html

Here are some links about DIM.

http://www.dimfaq.com/index.htm

http://qualitycounts.com/fpdim.html

I tried Chrysin and it was a waste of my money and my E2 levels kept going up.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: justinjune65 <justinjune65@...>

> Subject: Re: subcutaneous testosterone injections

>

> Date: Tuesday, November 11, 2008, 10:14 PM

> I use a 1mL 8mm 31G short needle BD insulin syringe.

> It's a really

> tiny needle. I inject a full 1ml syringe of air into the

> testosterone

> and then draw 0.3ml of the oil into the syringe. It does

> take a long

> time, 2 or 3 minutes I guess. Sometimes I hold the

> testosterone vial

> in my hand for a while to warm it and I think that may make

> it thinner

> and draw faster, but it's hard to really tell. I inject

> sub Q 3x a

> week for just short of 200mg test / week.

>

> My doctor at body logic MD also has me take:

>

> Chrysin 1000mg 2x / day

> Cortef 5mg 2x / day

> Serenagen 3x / day

> Vitamin D 4000iu 1x / day

> DHEA 25mg 1x / day

> Melatonin 3mg at bedtime

> Progesterone 25mg at bedtime

>

> I was diagnosed with low testosterone and adrenal fatigue.

> I've been

> treated since April and I really do feel much better.

> It's a lot of

> stuff to take, but it seems to work.

>

>

> > > >

> > > > Does anyone else use subcutaneous

> testosterone

> > > injections?

> > > > My doctor has me inject myself 3 times a

> week with

> > > 0.3ml

> > > testosteronecypionate 200mg/ml. I inject

> subcutaneously

> > > into the fat

> > > layer under the skin on my belly. It is really

> easy and

> > > painless and

> > > seems to work well. I use a very fine and short

> insulin

> > > syringe. It is

> > > a bit difficult to draw the oil into the syringe

> and takes

> > > quite a

> > > while maybe 2 minutes or more. At first I did

> not think it

> > > would

> > > work, but the oil does actually slowly draw into

> the

> > > syringe.

> > > Injecting is very easy. I used to IMinject and

> this is a

> > > lot less

> > > painful and scary. It seems much safer and less

> invasive.

> > > > Any thoughts?

> > >

> > > My Dr. has me doing sub-q shots too. Do you

> inject air into

> > > the T

> > > before you draw? I use a 1cc syringe 27G by

> 5/8 "

> > > needle. I find it

> > > takes a good couple of minutes to draw my dose.

> It's

> > > test-cyp by .

> > > The injection is fairly painless. What I find

> difficult is

> > > the size of

> > > the syringe, the tabs could be larger but I guess

> it'll

> > > get better

> > > with practice.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ------------------------------------

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Thanks. I am new to this and haven't posted on other forums, but I imagine other

body logic MD patients who might have posted may be on the same protocol and

injection method.

It's really complex all these medications. I've also read that chrysin is

ineffective, but I don't want to question my doctor. It's also the most

expensive of the prescriptions. I will have to research the links you've sent

and read the info.

I should have test results in a week or so and I'll post them.

________________________________

From: philip georgian <pmgamer18@...>

Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 9:39:33 AM

Subject: Re: Re: subcutaneous testosterone injections

Hi ,

I am sure I have talked to you at other forums MESO or Dr. 's maybe even my

Thyroid forum at http://forums. realthyroidhelp. com/

I see no problems doing your shots subQ I know a lot of men doing this and

having good results with it. I use the same needle your using for my HCG shots

and still I do them IM into my thigh.

Some things I see I would not do one is Progesterone this a cut and paste of

what Dr. says about doing this and to me he is one of the best male hormone

Dr.'s out there.

============ ========= ========= ==

But you can still reason things out, and apply good 'ol Farner's Logic.

There is not one valid study that proves men should take PROG. And many which

prove he should not.

Simple, irrefutable facts:

PROG elevates SHBG

Suppresses the HPTA

Causes gynocomastia

Causes impotence

.....all feminizing features of a hormone.

____________ ______

www.AllThingsMale. com

Any information I may provide does not substitute for a proper medical

evaluation by a medical professional; nor does it constitute doctor/patient

relationship, or liability, in any way.

============ ========= ========= ==

The other is your doing 5mgs of Cortef only 2x's a day. In adrenal fatigue your

adrenals are over worked and need to rest to rebuild. So the best way to do

this is to take HC or Cortef enough to support your adrenals so they can rest

and heal. The best way to do this if taking HC is to take 5mgs of cortef 4x's a

day or every 4 hrs. This way your adrenals don't need to work much and you have

enough cortisol in using HC to support your body from morning to night. Here is

some links one is the best from Dr. Jefferies book " Safe Uses of Cortisol " and

the other is a FAQ's we did at STTM.

http://www.stopthet hyroidmadness. com/safe- uses/

http://forums. realthyroidhelp. com/viewtopic. php?f=12 & t=256

As for Chrysin if this is a pill forget it most of it gets killed in the

stomach. Your better off doing Indolplex/DIM to keep Estradiol down or better

yet Arimidex most do well taking .25mgs every 3 days.

http://www.myvitane t.com/indolplex- with-dim- 60-tab-phytophar mica.html

Here are some links about DIM.

http://www.dimfaq. com/index. htm

http://qualitycount s.com/fpdim. html

I tried Chrysin and it was a waste of my money and my E2 levels kept going up.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: justinjune65 <justinjune65>

> Subject: Re: subcutaneous testosterone injections

>

> Date: Tuesday, November 11, 2008, 10:14 PM

> I use a 1mL 8mm 31G short needle BD insulin syringe.

> It's a really

> tiny needle. I inject a full 1ml syringe of air into the

> testosterone

> and then draw 0.3ml of the oil into the syringe. It does

> take a long

> time, 2 or 3 minutes I guess. Sometimes I hold the

> testosterone vial

> in my hand for a while to warm it and I think that may make

> it thinner

> and draw faster, but it's hard to really tell. I inject

> sub Q 3x a

> week for just short of 200mg test / week.

>

> My doctor at body logic MD also has me take:

>

> Chrysin 1000mg 2x / day

> Cortef 5mg 2x / day

> Serenagen 3x / day

> Vitamin D 4000iu 1x / day

> DHEA 25mg 1x / day

> Melatonin 3mg at bedtime

> Progesterone 25mg at bedtime

>

> I was diagnosed with low testosterone and adrenal fatigue.

> I've been

> treated since April and I really do feel much better.

> It's a lot of

> stuff to take, but it seems to work.

>

>

> > > >

> > > > Does anyone else use subcutaneous

> testosterone

> > > injections?

> > > > My doctor has me inject myself 3 times a

> week with

> > > 0.3ml

> > > testosteronecypiona te 200mg/ml. I inject

> subcutaneously

> > > into the fat

> > > layer under the skin on my belly. It is really

> easy and

> > > painless and

> > > seems to work well. I use a very fine and short

> insulin

> > > syringe. It is

> > > a bit difficult to draw the oil into the syringe

> and takes

> > > quite a

> > > while maybe 2 minutes or more. At first I did

> not think it

> > > would

> > > work, but the oil does actually slowly draw into

> the

> > > syringe.

> > > Injecting is very easy. I used to IMinject and

> this is a

> > > lot less

> > > painful and scary. It seems much safer and less

> invasive.

> > > > Any thoughts?

> > >

> > > My Dr. has me doing sub-q shots too. Do you

> inject air into

> > > the T

> > > before you draw? I use a 1cc syringe 27G by

> 5/8 "

> > > needle. I find it

> > > takes a good couple of minutes to draw my dose.

> It's

> > > test-cyp by .

> > > The injection is fairly painless. What I find

> difficult is

> > > the size of

> > > the syringe, the tabs could be larger but I guess

> it'll

> > > get better

> > > with practice.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ------------ --------- --------- ------

> > >

> > >