Guest guest Posted September 20, 2007 Report Share Posted September 20, 2007 On Wed, 19 Sep 2007 23:09:01 -0000, you wrote: >Guys, > >So I finally moved to Austin, Texas, and found my urologist. He took >my levels which were: > >Total T 1340 >Free T 49.6 >Bio T 884 > >So my question is, Why is my Free T so high, I understand the Total T >but my Free T is very high. I have been taking 100mg IM once a week. >My doctor switched me from once a week to twice a week and then he will >recheck my levels. I have been feeling really tired, low sex drive, >poor erections and my head feels drowsy all the time. I feel like I >could sleep most of the day. I have already had my MRI and it was >okay. So what do you think guys? Every one metabolizes and absorbs T differently. But two weeks is too long an interval I suspect for you. Your levels are falling perhaps too low in the last days. I'd suggest still getting weekly shots but less. Try 60 mg a week for a time. You should be shooting for 600 to 750 total T in my opinion. That\'s assuming ranges that look like most of those we see. Do you have the ranges on these tests? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2007 Report Share Posted September 20, 2007 Dave - How long have you been on shots?? Some of us have a delayed reaction to the introduction of T, sometimes taking weeks or months for full impact and elimination of symptoms. Blessings, Bill > > Guys, > > So I finally moved to Austin, Texas, and found my urologist. He took > my levels which were: > > Total T 1340 > Free T 49.6 > Bio T 884 > > So my question is, Why is my Free T so high, I understand the Total T > but my Free T is very high. I have been taking 100mg IM once a week. > My doctor switched me from once a week to twice a week and then he will > recheck my levels. I have been feeling really tired, low sex drive, > poor erections and my head feels drowsy all the time. I feel like I > could sleep most of the day. I have already had my MRI and it was > okay. So what do you think guys? > > -Dave > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2008 Report Share Posted August 12, 2008 Just got back lab numbers, 58 year old male, primary hypogonadic, taking 7.5 grams of androgel/day PSA = 1.1 ng/ml (0.0-3.5) total tesosterone = 665 ng/dl (250-1100) Testosterone, Free = 160 pg/ml (46.0-224) Testosterone, Bioavailable = 315.1 ng/dl (110-575) Sex Hormone Binding Globulin = 17 nmol/L (18-47) Albumin, Serum = 4.3 g/dl (3.6-5.1) Sex Hormone Binding Globulin is a bit LOW--why might this be the case??? comments welcome Most importantly, imo, my libido is great, erections good and common, ejaculate volume = large. What variables are involved in ejaculate volume?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2008 Report Share Posted August 13, 2008 Your still not up into the upper 1/3 of your labs range I find most feel there best up there. If you could go up to 10grams of gel this would do the job. If your levels are at 800 this would be the upper 1/3 of your labs range. SHBG here is a cut & paste from a Dam Good Dr. that is coming out with a book about Depression and Mental Problems that he feels are due to low hormones. He was at this web site doing research for his book. So he started helping guys by replying to there post. ================================= Re: do we need SHBG -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Originally Posted by masterpp in a hypothetical situation why do we need SHBG and what would happen if we lowered SHBG too much. can lowering SHBG be used as a form of trt One way of looking at SHBG is that it binds to testosterone to keep testosterone from being destroyed. Free testosterone is destroyed in about 30-100 minutes. SHBG+testosterone can then be looked at as an extended-release form of testosterone. Albumin+testosterone is an intermediate-release form of testosterone. Low SHBG is associated with insulin resistance. High SHBG is associated with high estrogen states (e.g. with obesity) or low DHEA (e.g. with adrenal fatigue). __________________ Any statement I make on this site is for educational purposes only and will change as medical knowledge progresses. It does not constitute medical advice, does not substitute for proper medical evaluation from physician, does not create a doctor/patient relationship or liability. If you would like medical advice, please ask your doctor. Thank you. =================================================== One other thing I see you don't have your estradiol tested and if this is good or on the lower side your SHBG will be low. Mine stays at 24 I don't feel there is anything wrong with your level at 17 if your were say 10 then I would worry. As long as you have erections your doing very good high or low levels of Estradiol will kill this. Do you have night time and morning erections if not this can be your Estradiol is not were it needs to be when I got mine right they come back after not having them for over 35yrs. The ejaculate Volume has more to do with your diet and the Vit.'s your body needs also if your dehydrated the volume will go down. At the home page we have a links and files section full of info you would do good to go and read up on this. Here is one good link to get you started. http://www.griffinmedical.com/male_hormone_modulation_therapy.html Here is an Attach of a batch of posts from that Dr. I was telling you about. Co-Moderator Phil > From: kipp kruse <kckruse@...> > Subject: new numbers > > Date: Tuesday, August 12, 2008, 8:37 PM > Just got back lab numbers, 58 year old male, primary > hypogonadic, > taking 7.5 grams of androgel/day > > PSA = 1.1 ng/ml (0.0-3.5) > > total tesosterone = 665 ng/dl (250-1100) > > Testosterone, Free = 160 pg/ml (46.0-224) > > Testosterone, Bioavailable = 315.1 ng/dl (110-575) > > Sex Hormone Binding Globulin = 17 nmol/L (18-47) > > Albumin, Serum = 4.3 g/dl (3.6-5.1) > > > Sex Hormone Binding Globulin is a bit LOW--why might this > be the case??? > > comments welcome > > > > Most importantly, imo, my libido is great, erections good > and common, > ejaculate volume = large. > > What variables are involved in ejaculate volume?? > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2011 Report Share Posted May 7, 2011 It looks to me like the T3 is too low, and you might not be converting properly. You could find this out with an RT3 test, which you will probably have to convince the doctor to order, as most of them seem unwilling to even SEE if this problem is there. If you're not converting you will need T3 only which has to be titrated starting at 5mcg and working up slowly, about every week to two weeks, depending on how your body reacts. If you take too much, all you have to do is go back down a dose, and if you take too little you just go up a dose. Again, you need to have a doctor willing to work with you. Most often a holistic doctor or an MD who practices alternative medicine are the ones most willing to work with you. Roni From: <res075oh@...> hypothyroidism Sent: Friday, May 6, 2011 2:54 PM Subject: Re: Re: new numbers Hi, Ledbyrain. I'm not one of the lab experts here but I'll make a couple of comments. First, 50 mcg is a very low dose of T4; at best it's a starting dose for titration. Second, the fact that your TSH change so much in 3 weeks with such a low dose is confusing to me. It usually takes longer and a higher dose AFAIK to bring hypothyroidism under control. Third: I think Thyperoxidase AB is an abreviation of thyroid peroxidase. That is one indicator of an autoimmune attack on your thyroid gland such as Hashimoto's. OTOH your Thyroglobulin AB appears within range; and that is another test that can indicate Hashimoto's. To me one appears positive while the other in negative. But both of them can be indicators of things other than Hashimoto's so hopefully someone with greater insight than I will chime in. Luck, .. .. > Posted by: " ledbyrain@... " ledbyrain@... > <mailto:ledbyrain@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20new%20numbers> > ledbyrain <ledbyrain> > > > Thu May 5, 2011 2:02 pm (PDT) > > > > Hello, > > I started taking 50 mcg of levothyroxine three weeks ago and just had > my numbers rechecked. Would you be so kind as to help me interpret? > > Three weeks ago: > > TSH = 10.95 > Free T4 = .72 > Free T3 = 2.8 > > Today (note that Free T4 isn't showing up for some reason): > > TSH = 2.40 (acceptable range is between .55 and 4.78) > Free T3 = 2.8 (acceptable range is between 2.3 and 4.2) > Thyroglobulin AB = <20.0 (normal is below 39.9) > Thyperoxidase AB = 53.1 (lab reports that this is high - normal should > be below 35.0) ------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2011 Report Share Posted May 8, 2011 I'm glad you're feeling better. However, as for the acupuncture there is no scientific support whatsoever that it is effective ; and there is not explanation even for how it could possibly work that jives with what we know about physics and science. I did read about a large study of acupuncture [last year I think] but I did not follow up to check its credibility. In that study patients were divided into two groups. One group got acupuncture according to the recommendations of " experts " in the field while the other group had the needles placed at random. Strangely enough both groups showed at least a small level of improvement [probably/possibly a subjective measure]. There was no benefit shown to placing the needles " properly " over placing them randomly. .. .. > Posted by: " ledbyrain@... " ledbyrain@... > <mailto:ledbyrain@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20new%20numbers> > ledbyrain <ledbyrain> > > > Sat May 7, 2011 5:01 pm (PDT) > > > > Thank you both for your review of the numbers and comments. My doctor > has instructed me to maintain at this dose and to come back for > additional testing in 3-4 months unless I become pregnant before then, > in which case I should return 4-6 weeks after conception. Given the > peroxidase antibody number, I am going to begin taking selenium as well. > > - I can't account for the quick improvement at such a low dose, > but I am grateful for it. I've been going to acupuncture twice a week > to help jumpstart symptom reduction, and though people have said it > doesn't affect numbers, I feel it's been a good adjunct for me so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2011 Report Share Posted May 9, 2011 , I appreciate your caution with respect to complementary medical practices that have limited scientific support. It is easy to be vulnerable to suggestions for supplements, healing strategies, etc. when one is new to a diagnosis or condition. As I said in my previous email, I can't account for what you described as an unusually quick response to a low dose of medication except to note the things I have done in the past couple of weeks as potential factors (I forgot to mention that I also began taking a prenatal vitamin again, so perhaps that is another relevant variable, I don't know). I am familiar with the study regarding acupuncture you described. NIH has a CAM website that discusses that study and others in more detail (link is below). Just to be clear, I wasn't proposing that acupuncture is an effective approach for hypothyroidism, but I am humble enough to believe that there might have been some wisdom accrued in developing that practice for thousands of years. http://nccam.nih.gov/health/acupuncture/ From: <res075oh@...> Subject: Re: new numbers hypothyroidism Date: Sunday, May 8, 2011, 1:10 PM Â I'm glad you're feeling better. However, as for the acupuncture there is no scientific support whatsoever that it is effective ; and there is not explanation even for how it could possibly work that jives with what we know about physics and science. I did read about a large study of acupuncture [last year I think] but I did not follow up to check its credibility. In that study patients were divided into two groups. One group got acupuncture according to the recommendations of " experts " in the field while the other group had the needles placed at random. Strangely enough both groups showed at least a small level of improvement [probably/possibly a subjective measure]. There was no benefit shown to placing the needles " properly " over placing them randomly. .. .. > Posted by: " ledbyrain@... " ledbyrain@... > <mailto:ledbyrain@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20new%20numbers> > ledbyrain <ledbyrain> > > > Sat May 7, 2011 5:01 pm (PDT) > > > > Thank you both for your review of the numbers and comments. My doctor > has instructed me to maintain at this dose and to come back for > additional testing in 3-4 months unless I become pregnant before then, > in which case I should return 4-6 weeks after conception. Given the > peroxidase antibody number, I am going to begin taking selenium as well. > > - I can't account for the quick improvement at such a low dose, > but I am grateful for it. I've been going to acupuncture twice a week > to help jumpstart symptom reduction, and though people have said it > doesn't affect numbers, I feel it's been a good adjunct for me so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2011 Report Share Posted May 9, 2011 Hey " ledbyrain " . It is great that you are getting such great results with your current treatment and it is not unusual that you're improvement has been so quick. Ask anyone who uses acupuncture and you will find a high rate of similar stories. Acupuncture is very effective treating many diseases although is being blindly ignored by those who say it does not work because there is no scientific proof. Denouncing acupuncture using what sounds like scientific language should not detract from the proof provided by millions of patients though thousand of years. Scientific proof is something very elastic and it is often applied by some in a very biased way. Since lots of what we hear to be " scientific proof " is funded by pharmaceutical companies then anything that does not lead to them making " drug sales " is labeled by them as " unscientific " . Just because some do not understand how the science of acupuncture works does not mean acupuncture does not work. Millions of people during thousand of years can not be mistaken, it would be totally unscientific to say so. There is a large amount of evidence supporting alternative medicine successful treatment of many diseases and there is also mountains of evidence showing that allopathic medicine sometimes fails to cure many diseases and just simply over medicates with detrimental results to their patients. This is a scientific fact. There are lots of respected medical doctors and medical institutions who approve and use acupuncture with great results. Most major hospitals have acupuncture services today, including The Mayo Clinic. I'm very glad that you are getting such good results with acupuncture. I had acupuncture treatments many years ago to get rid of asthma with great results. Like anything else, having a good acupuncturist is key. Unfortunately where I live now I don't have a good one, however not having a good acupuncturist led me to look and find a great homeopath who has helped me tremendously. If it is working for you as it has worked for many others, that is enough to suggest that you should continue your path. I find it reprehensible that every time someone posts on getting good results with any alternative medical treatment on this Hypothyroidism group the same couple of members have to say " there is no scientific proof " regardless of the fact that a consistent rate of successful treatmens by any protocol consists of plenty of scientific proof. Good science does not ignore the evidence. To deny people of a chance of improving their health by means of biased information that condemns them to a life of taking pills which in many cases do not cure them and only causes more problems is absolutely shameful. I wish you perfect health. Many thanks for sharing your wonderful story. > > From: <res075oh@...> > Subject: Re: new numbers > hypothyroidism > Date: Sunday, May 8, 2011, 1:10 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Â > > > > > > > > > > I'm glad you're feeling better. However, as for the acupuncture there > > is no scientific support whatsoever that it is effective ; and there is > > not explanation even for how it could possibly work that jives with what > > we know about physics and science. > > > > I did read about a large study of acupuncture [last year I think] but I > > did not follow up to check its credibility. In that study patients were > > divided into two groups. One group got acupuncture according to the > > recommendations of " experts " in the field while the other group had the > > needles placed at random. Strangely enough both groups showed at least > > a small level of improvement [probably/possibly a subjective measure]. > > There was no benefit shown to placing the needles " properly " over > > placing them randomly. > > > > > > . > > . > > > > > Posted by: " ledbyrain@... " ledbyrain@... > > > <mailto:ledbyrain@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20new%20numbers> > > > ledbyrain <ledbyrain> > > > > > > > > > Sat May 7, 2011 5:01 pm (PDT) > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you both for your review of the numbers and comments. My doctor > > > has instructed me to maintain at this dose and to come back for > > > additional testing in 3-4 months unless I become pregnant before then, > > > in which case I should return 4-6 weeks after conception. Given the > > > peroxidase antibody number, I am going to begin taking selenium as well. > > > > > > - I can't account for the quick improvement at such a low dose, > > > but I am grateful for it. I've been going to acupuncture twice a week > > > to help jumpstart symptom reduction, and though people have said it > > > doesn't affect numbers, I feel it's been a good adjunct for me so far. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2011 Report Share Posted May 9, 2011 " ledbyrain " You wrote: > ...Today (note that Free T4 isn't showing up for some reason): > > TSH = 2.40 (acceptable range is between .55 and 4.78) > Free T3 = 2.8 (acceptable range is between 2.3 and 4.2) > Thyroglobulin AB =Â <20.0 (normal is below 39.9) > Thyperoxidase AB = 53.1 (lab reports that this is high - normal should be below 35.0) The elevated TPO antibodies means you have a type of Hashimoto's thyroiditis. Your symptoms will probably not stabilize until your dose is significantly higher. That can take as long as a year. Although TSH and FT3 are within the reference range, there have been a couple of recent studies that show that active TPO antibodies can skew the other results. It is quite possible to have hypoT symptoms with TSH and FT3 in the reference range. If you still have symptoms, or if they start up again, press your doctor for follow-on tests to adjust your dosage. You may not feel well until your TSH is below 2 and FT3 is at the upper end of the range for an extended period. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2011 Report Share Posted May 9, 2011 Trish, You wrote: > > > i am open to correction but i don't think the rt3 test is indicative of conversion problems per se but rather is indicative that for reasons a, b or c, the body cannot use free t3 so makes rt3 instead. high ft4 and low ft3 would be more indicative of conversion problems i would have thought? Actually, no. FT4 is converted to EITHER RT3 or T3, in about equal amounts, but your system is sensitive to the ratio of FT3 to RT3. Elevated RT3 not only means that too large a fraction of T4 is not going to T3, but the RT3 blocks the T3 receptors in the cells. This double whammy makes the RT3 indicator more sensitive. However, such an imbalance is relatively rare, which is why few doctors resort to it without serious indications of conversion issues. Roni is one of the clear exceptions. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 That's an interesting site. It is one of a small percentage of sites dealing with alternative practices from a MOL positive viewpoint that does not go off the deep end in promoting them. The quote below describes quite a bit of their view of traditional Chinese medicine [TCM]. As I have posted here many times: I approach medicine from the world view of allopathic practices and from that of the scientific method. At the same time I hasten to add that I have no credentials of any kind in any field and am an expert on nothing. Nonetheless I think it is fair to say that from the lay person's point of view I have a pretty good grasp of the basics of science and physics. And it it from that viewpoint that I find the claims of TCM troubling. I'll try to explain why I find some of the suggestions of the material unrealistic or unsupported. Looking at the two sentences below I really don't think you'll find a _good_ doctor from any healing world view that does not agree with it; although perhaps to a more or lessor extent: .. > This view is based on the ancient Chinese perception of humans as > microcosms of the larger, surrounding universe—interconnected with > nature and subject to its forces. The human body is regarded as an > organic entity in which the various organs, tissues, and other parts > have distinct functions but are all interdependent. .. As for " qi " and " yin-yang " : Scientists [including Chinese] have identified only four forces [if we ignore the probability/possibility associated with dark energy/dark matter]. These four forces account for every physical reaction that we can describe on a human scale. They are the strong nuclear, weak nuclear, electromagnetic and gravity forces. Of these the strong and weak nuclear forces operate within the atom so the only ones we encounter in our everyday lives are the electromagnetic and gravity forces. There isn't anything that corresponds to " qi " or to " yin-yang " in the world view of science. There is no evidence that they exist in the billions of dollars of experiments that have been conducted. Not one iota of credible scientific support has ever been found for anything that corresponds to such entities. Further, the " meridians " that are purported to be the pathways for qi to circulate in the human body have never AFAIK been identified with any specific tissue found in the human body. And lastly: There is no credible theory as to how fire, earth, metal, water and wood correlate to specific body organs. So what you are left with is an utter absence of actual facts, based upon a very tenuous " theory " [if I may use the term very loosely] of how things might work. Does that disprove the concept? Nope; it just points out it has no support in any scientific facts that you can detect, measure or analyze in any form. OTOH we can't prove the tooth fairy doesn't exist either. .. .. > > > Underlying Concepts > > Underlying the practice of TCM is a unique view of the world and the > human body that is different from Western medicine concepts. This view > is based on the ancient Chinese perception of humans as microcosms of > the larger, surrounding universe—interconnected with nature and > subject to its forces. The human body is regarded as an organic entity > in which the various organs, tissues, and other parts have distinct > functions but are all interdependent. In this view, health and disease > relate to balance of the functions. > > The theoretical framework of TCM has a number of key components: > > * *Yin-yang theory*—the concept of two opposing, yet > complementary, forces that shape the world and all life—is > central to TCM. > * In the TCM view, a vital energy or life force called *qi* > circulates in the body through a system of pathways called > *meridians*. Health is an ongoing process of maintaining balance > and harmony in the circulation of qi. > * The TCM approach uses *eight principles* to analyze symptoms and > categorize conditions: cold/heat, interior/exterior, > excess/deficiency, and yin/yang (the chief principles). TCM also > uses the theory of *five elements*—fire, earth, metal, water, > and wood—to explain how the body works; these elements > correspond to particular organs and tissues in the body. > > These concepts are documented in the Huang Di Nei Jing (Inner Canon of > the Yellow Emperor), the classic Chinese medicine text. > > Top <http://nccam.nih.gov/health/whatiscam/chinesemed.htm#top> > > Posted by: " ledbyrain@... " ledbyrain@... > <mailto:ledbyrain@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20new%20numbers> > ledbyrain <ledbyrain> > > > Sun May 8, 2011 5:03 pm (PDT) > > > > , I appreciate your caution with respect to complementary medical > practices that have limited scientific support. It is easy to be > vulnerable to suggestions for supplements, healing strategies, etc. > when one is new to a diagnosis or condition. > > As I said in my previous email, I can't account for what you described > as an unusually quick response to a low dose of medication except to > note the things I have done in the past couple of weeks as potential > factors (I forgot to mention that I also began taking a prenatal > vitamin again, so perhaps that is another relevant variable, I don't > know). > > I am familiar with the study regarding acupuncture you described. NIH > has a CAM website that discusses that study and others in more detail > (link is below). Just to be clear, I wasn't proposing that acupuncture > is an effective approach for hypothyroidism, but I am humble enough to > believe that there might have been some wisdom accrued in developing > that practice for thousands of years. > > http://nccam.nih.gov/health/acupuncture/ > <http://nccam.nih.gov/health/acupuncture/> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 Qi is basically the energy that runs through our bodies. Don't forget that our bodies do all the things they do based on the electrical impulses that come to the brain from conscious and unconcious stimuli. As for yin and yang, I'm sure you have heard " For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. " That is basically the same thing. Nothing could exist without balance. The language used to explain these things may be different, but the science is the same. I'm really not fluent in all the Chinese language equivilents, but I'm sure you get the idea.  Roni From: <res075oh@...> hypothyroidism Sent: Monday, May 9, 2011 5:16 PM Subject: Re: Re: new numbers That's an interesting site. It is one of a small percentage of sites dealing with alternative practices from a MOL positive viewpoint that does not go off the deep end in promoting them. The quote below describes quite a bit of their view of traditional Chinese medicine [TCM]. As I have posted here many times: I approach medicine from the world view of allopathic practices and from that of the scientific method. At the same time I hasten to add that I have no credentials of any kind in any field and am an expert on nothing. Nonetheless I think it is fair to say that from the lay person's point of view I have a pretty good grasp of the basics of science and physics. And it it from that viewpoint that I find the claims of TCM troubling. I'll try to explain why I find some of the suggestions of the material unrealistic or unsupported. Looking at the two sentences below I really don't think you'll find a _good_ doctor from any healing world view that does not agree with it; although perhaps to a more or lessor extent: .. > This view is based on the ancient Chinese perception of humans as > microcosms of the larger, surrounding universe—interconnected with > nature and subject to its forces. The human body is regarded as an > organic entity in which the various organs, tissues, and other parts > have distinct functions but are all interdependent. .. As for " qi " and " yin-yang " : Scientists [including Chinese] have identified only four forces [if we ignore the probability/possibility associated with dark energy/dark matter]. These four forces account for every physical reaction that we can describe on a human scale. They are the strong nuclear, weak nuclear, electromagnetic and gravity forces. Of these the strong and weak nuclear forces operate within the atom so the only ones we encounter in our everyday lives are the electromagnetic and gravity forces. There isn't anything that corresponds to " qi " or to " yin-yang " in the world view of science. There is no evidence that they exist in the billions of dollars of experiments that have been conducted. Not one iota of credible scientific support has ever been found for anything that corresponds to such entities. Further, the " meridians " that are purported to be the pathways for qi to circulate in the human body have never AFAIK been identified with any specific tissue found in the human body. And lastly: There is no credible theory as to how fire, earth, metal, water and wood correlate to specific body organs. So what you are left with is an utter absence of actual facts, based upon a very tenuous " theory " [if I may use the term very loosely] of how things might work. Does that disprove the concept? Nope; it just points out it has no support in any scientific facts that you can detect, measure or analyze in any form. OTOH we can't prove the tooth fairy doesn't exist either. .. .. > > >  Underlying Concepts > > Underlying the practice of TCM is a unique view of the world and the > human body that is different from Western medicine concepts. This view > is based on the ancient Chinese perception of humans as microcosms of > the larger, surrounding universe—interconnected with nature and > subject to its forces. The human body is regarded as an organic entity > in which the various organs, tissues, and other parts have distinct > functions but are all interdependent. In this view, health and disease > relate to balance of the functions. > > The theoretical framework of TCM has a number of key components: > >  * *Yin-yang theory*—the concept of two opposing, yet >   complementary, forces that shape the world and all life—is >   central to TCM. >  * In the TCM view, a vital energy or life force called *qi* >   circulates in the body through a system of pathways called >   *meridians*. Health is an ongoing process of maintaining balance >   and harmony in the circulation of qi. >  * The TCM approach uses *eight principles* to analyze symptoms and >   categorize conditions: cold/heat, interior/exterior, >   excess/deficiency, and yin/yang (the chief principles). TCM also >   uses the theory of *five elements*—fire, earth, metal, water, >   and wood—to explain how the body works; these elements >   correspond to particular organs and tissues in the body. > > These concepts are documented in the Huang Di Nei Jing (Inner Canon of > the Yellow Emperor), the classic Chinese medicine text. > > Top <http://nccam.nih.gov/health/whatiscam/chinesemed.htm#top> > >   Posted by: " ledbyrain@... " ledbyrain@... >   <mailto:ledbyrain@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20new%20numbers> >   ledbyrain <ledbyrain> > > >    Sun May 8, 2011 5:03 pm (PDT) > > > > , I appreciate your caution with respect to complementary medical > practices that have limited scientific support. It is easy to be > vulnerable to suggestions for supplements, healing strategies, etc. > when one is new to a diagnosis or condition. > > As I said in my previous email, I can't account for what you described > as an unusually quick response to a low dose of medication except to > note the things I have done in the past couple of weeks as potential > factors (I forgot to mention that I also began taking a prenatal > vitamin again, so perhaps that is another relevant variable, I don't > know). > > I am familiar with the study regarding acupuncture you described. NIH > has a CAM website that discusses that study and others in more detail > (link is below). Just to be clear, I wasn't proposing that acupuncture > is an effective approach for hypothyroidism, but I am humble enough to > believe that there might have been some wisdom accrued in developing > that practice for thousands of years. > > http://nccam.nih.gov/health/acupuncture/ > <http://nccam.nih.gov/health/acupuncture/> ------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 Hi, Roni. Scientists understand the energy of our bodies pretty darned well and qi isn't anywhere to be seen. As for yin and yang, science is not only concerned with the fact that something " works " but attempts to understand the principles that cause it to work. Yin/yang are scientifically much less than Newton's laws of motion and IMHO philosophically much more. There really isn't any science in a discussion of qi or of yin/yang. There are no proposals for any method to detect or measure them. OTOH the theory of electromagnetism is pretty much fleshed out. That IS science. Regards, .. .. > Posted by: " Roni Molin " matchermaam@... > <mailto:matchermaam@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20new%20numbers> > matchermaam <matchermaam> > > > Mon May 9, 2011 6:09 pm (PDT) > > > > Qi is basically the energy that runs through our bodies. Don't forget > that our bodies do all the things they do based on the electrical > impulses that come to the brain from conscious and unconcious stimuli. > As for yin and yang, I'm sure you > have heard " For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. " > That is basically the same thing. Nothing could exist without balance. > The language used to explain these things may be different, but the > science is the same. I'm really not fluent in all the Chinese language > equivilents, but I'm sure you get the idea. > > Roni Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi This is what I was saying about qi, that it's comparable to energy. The languages are just different, like love in english meaning the same a amore in french. http://diamondhead.net/p11.htm This is what I was trying to say about yin and yang. I try to stay open to everything, because even if I only gain one kernel of new knowledge or understanding, I have gained from my openness. JMHO! Roni From: <res075oh@...> hypothyroidism Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 9:19 AM Subject: Re: new numbers Hi, Roni. Scientists understand the energy of our bodies pretty darned well and qi isn't anywhere to be seen. As for yin and yang, science is not only concerned with the fact that something " works " but attempts to understand the principles that cause it to work. Yin/yang are scientifically much less than Newton's laws of motion and IMHO philosophically much more. There really isn't any science in a discussion of qi or of yin/yang. There are no proposals for any method to detect or measure them. OTOH the theory of electromagnetism is pretty much fleshed out. That IS science. Regards, .. .. > Posted by: " Roni Molin " matchermaam@... > <mailto:matchermaam@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20new%20numbers> > matchermaam <matchermaam> > > > Mon May 9, 2011 6:09 pm (PDT) > > > > Qi is basically the energy that runs through our bodies. Don't forget > that our bodies do all the things they do based on the electrical > impulses that come to the brain from conscious and unconcious stimuli. > As for yin and yang, I'm sure you > have heard " For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. " > That is basically the same thing. Nothing could exist without balance. > The language used to explain these things may be different, but the > science is the same. I'm really not fluent in all the Chinese language > equivilents, but I'm sure you get the idea. > > Roni ------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2011 Report Share Posted May 10, 2011 Scientific knowledge and understanding is changing every day. New discoveries produce new theories, new medical protocols, new cures and new understanding. I look forward to the new information that is discovered all the time. http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Searching_for_dark_matter_and_antimatter_999.h\ tml Roni From: <res075oh@...> hypothyroidism Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 9:19 AM Subject: Re: new numbers Hi, Roni. Scientists understand the energy of our bodies pretty darned well and qi isn't anywhere to be seen. As for yin and yang, science is not only concerned with the fact that something " works " but attempts to understand the principles that cause it to work. Yin/yang are scientifically much less than Newton's laws of motion and IMHO philosophically much more. There really isn't any science in a discussion of qi or of yin/yang. There are no proposals for any method to detect or measure them. OTOH the theory of electromagnetism is pretty much fleshed out. That IS science. Regards, .. .. > Posted by: " Roni Molin " matchermaam@... > <mailto:matchermaam@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20new%20numbers> > matchermaam <matchermaam> > > > Mon May 9, 2011 6:09 pm (PDT) > > > > Qi is basically the energy that runs through our bodies. Don't forget > that our bodies do all the things they do based on the electrical > impulses that come to the brain from conscious and unconcious stimuli. > As for yin and yang, I'm sure you > have heard " For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. " > That is basically the same thing. Nothing could exist without balance. > The language used to explain these things may be different, but the > science is the same. I'm really not fluent in all the Chinese language > equivilents, but I'm sure you get the idea. > > Roni ------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2011 Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 Below are the introductory parts of Wikipedia's discussion of both ENERGY and QI. You can find [or force] some correlations if you push hard enough but on the surface to me they're talking about two different things. The attributes discussed for energy can be readily detected, measured and described in specific detail and then mathematically. The attributes for qi are nebulous and shifting as the wind with nothing you can really nail down as a fact that all researchers would agree upon. .. > In physics <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physics>, *energy* (Ancient > Greek <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek>: á¼Î½ÎÏγεια /energeia > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energeia>/ " activity, operation " ^[1] > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy#cite_note-0> ) is a quantity that > is often understood as the ability a physical system > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_system> has to do work > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_%28physics%29> on other physical > systems.^[2] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy#cite_note-1> ^[3] > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy#cite_note-2> Since work is > defined as a force <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force> acting through > a distance (a length of space), energy is always equivalent to the > ability to exert pulls or pushes against the basic forces of nature, > along a path of a certain length. > > The total energy contained in an object is identified with its mass > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass>, and energy (like mass), cannot be > created or destroyed. When matter > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter> (ordinary material particles) is > changed into energy (such as energy of motion, or into radiation), the > *mass* of the system does not change through the transformation process. .. > In traditional Chinese culture > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_culture>, *qi* (also chi or > ch'i) is an active principle forming part of any living thing. Qi is > frequently translated as " energy > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_%28esotericism%29> flow " , and is > often compared to Western > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture> notions of energeia > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energeia> or élan vital > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89lan_vital> (vitalism > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitalism>), as well as the yogic > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoga> notion of prana > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prana> and pranayama > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pranayama>. The literal translation > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Translation> of " qi " is air, breath, or gas. .. .. You are, of course, quite free to put your interpretation on either or both. If I try to do that by saying in one A corresponds to X in the other and B corresponds to Y and C corresponds to Z then I find no meaningful results. That does not necessarily mean that it cannot be useful philosophically; OTOH it would be foolish to call it science. Regards, .. .. > Posted by: " Roni Molin " matchermaam@... > <mailto:matchermaam@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20new%20numbers> > matchermaam <matchermaam> > > > Tue May 10, 2011 9:57 am (PDT) > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi> > > This is what I was saying about qi, that it's comparable to energy. > The languages are just different, like love in english meaning the > same a amore in french. > > http://diamondhead.net/p11.htm <http://diamondhead.net/p11.htm> > > This is what I was trying to say about yin and yang. > > I try to stay open to everything, because even if I only gain one > kernel of new knowledge or understanding, I have gained from my > openness. JMHO! > > Roni > > > > From: <res075oh@... <mailto:res075oh%40verizon.net>> > hypothyroidism > <mailto:hypothyroidism%40> > Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 9:19 AM > Subject: Re: new numbers > > Hi, Roni. Scientists understand the energy of our bodies pretty darned > well and qi isn't anywhere to be seen. As for yin and yang, science is > not only concerned with the fact that something " works " but attempts to > understand the principles that cause it to work. Yin/yang are > scientifically much less than Newton's laws of motion and IMHO > philosophically much more. There really isn't any science in a > discussion of qi or of yin/yang. There are no proposals for any method > to detect or measure them. OTOH the theory of electromagnetism is > pretty much fleshed out. That IS science. > > Regards, > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2011 Report Share Posted May 11, 2011 The apparent existence of and the search for dark energy and dark matter are interesting to say the least. Now add in the findings of the most distant galaxies that do not appear to have the constituents that we might expect and a lot of what we think we know about cosmology comes into question. Even the big bang itself might conceivably fall for a newer theory; but I don't see how whatever replaces it could fail to have some of the same characteristics. It's also possible [probable?] that if dark matter/dark energy are confirmed as real and come to be understood that they may also challenge [and change] our concept of physics on all levels. Chuck could probably give you a darned good guess as to how probable any of my ramblings are; I'm pretty much lost in trying to put it all together. I think Kaku suggests that what we see of the Universe is only about 4% and the rest is pretty much totally invisible to us. Regards, .. .. > Posted by: " Roni Molin " matchermaam@... > <mailto:matchermaam@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20new%20numbers> > matchermaam <matchermaam> > > > Tue May 10, 2011 10:05 am (PDT) > > > > Scientific knowledge and understanding is changing every day. New > discoveries produce new theories, new medical protocols, new cures and > new understanding. I look forward to the new information that is > discovered all the time. > > > http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Searching_for_dark_matter_and_antimatter_999.h\ tml > <http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Searching_for_dark_matter_and_antimatter_999.\ html> > > Roni Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2011 Report Share Posted May 12, 2011 Exactly! That is why to label protocols that have been around for thousands of years and are still working (not for everyone) as quackery, or inferior to allopathic medicine which is working (not for everyone) strikes me as short sighted. We are learning new things every day about medicine and the universe as well. Someday, the practice of medicine as it's done today will be laughed at and called barbaric. Unfortunately, we who are ill today with ailments that are not known, diagnosed and/or treated properly are the guinea pigs and will remain so. Oh yes, as far as meridians. They are known to exist in the world, and I do believe they have been also validated as existing in the body, but I'm not positive about that. Allopathic doctors, most of them, don't believe in alternative approaches, however the top spinal surgeons of University of Washington are totally unsatisfied with the tools they have for spinal/disc problems, and advise that alternative methods such as chiropractic, accupunture, physical therapy are just as efficacious, if not better than surgery. Where I live that instiution runs TV programs all the time about different things, what they are doing and what's available and what works. Some doctors won't even acknowledge that chiropractic is valid. Roni From: <res075oh@...> hypothyroidism Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 8:02 AM Subject: Re: new numbers The apparent existence of and the search for dark energy and dark matter are interesting to say the least. Now add in the findings of the most distant galaxies that do not appear to have the constituents that we might expect and a lot of what we think we know about cosmology comes into question. Even the big bang itself might conceivably fall for a newer theory; but I don't see how whatever replaces it could fail to have some of the same characteristics. It's also possible [probable?] that if dark matter/dark energy are confirmed as real and come to be understood that they may also challenge [and change] our concept of physics on all levels. Chuck could probably give you a darned good guess as to how probable any of my ramblings are; I'm pretty much lost in trying to put it all together. I think Kaku suggests that what we see of the Universe is only about 4% and the rest is pretty much totally invisible to us. Regards, .. .. > Posted by: " Roni Molin " matchermaam@... > <mailto:matchermaam@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20new%20numbers> > matchermaam <matchermaam> > > > Tue May 10, 2011 10:05 am (PDT) > > > > Scientific knowledge and understanding is changing every day. New > discoveries produce new theories, new medical protocols, new cures and > new understanding. I look forward to the new information that is > discovered all the time. > > > http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Searching_for_dark_matter_and_antimatter_999.h\ tml > <http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Searching_for_dark_matter_and_antimatter_999.\ html> > > Roni ------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2011 Report Share Posted May 12, 2011 I'm feeling too happy to debate. My blood pressure at the doctor was 126/60. No allopathic medications because I'm allergic, so instead I was told by one of my Cardios to take 4000mgs of fish oil ( I can only manage 3600 so far) and 300 units of CoQ10.  Let's agree to disagree.  Roni From: <res075oh@...> hypothyroidism Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 7:49 AM Subject: Re: new numbers Below are the introductory parts of Wikipedia's discussion of both ENERGY and QI. You can find [or force] some correlations if you push hard enough but on the surface to me they're talking about two different things. The attributes discussed for energy can be readily detected, measured and described in specific detail and then mathematically. The attributes for qi are nebulous and shifting as the wind with nothing you can really nail down as a fact that all researchers would agree upon. .. > In physics <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physics>, *energy* (Ancient > Greek <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek>: á¼Î½ÎÏγεια /energeia > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energeia>/ " activity, operation " ^[1] > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy#cite_note-0> ) is a quantity that > is often understood as the ability a physical system > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_system> has to do work > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_%28physics%29> on other physical > systems.^[2] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy#cite_note-1> ^[3] > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy#cite_note-2> Since work is > defined as a force <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force> acting through > a distance (a length of space), energy is always equivalent to the > ability to exert pulls or pushes against the basic forces of nature, > along a path of a certain length. > > The total energy contained in an object is identified with its mass > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass>, and energy (like mass), cannot be > created or destroyed. When matter > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter> (ordinary material particles) is > changed into energy (such as energy of motion, or into radiation), the > *mass* of the system does not change through the transformation process. .. > In traditional Chinese culture > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_culture>, *qi* (also chi or > ch'i) is an active principle forming part of any living thing. Qi is > frequently translated as " energy > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_%28esotericism%29> flow " , and is > often compared to Western > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture> notions of energeia > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energeia> or élan vital > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89lan_vital> (vitalism > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitalism>), as well as the yogic > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoga> notion of prana > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prana> and pranayama > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pranayama>. The literal translation > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Translation> of " qi " is air, breath, or gas. .. .. You are, of course, quite free to put your interpretation on either or both. If I try to do that by saying in one A corresponds to X in the other and B corresponds to Y and C corresponds to Z then I find no meaningful results. That does not necessarily mean that it cannot be useful philosophically; OTOH it would be foolish to call it science. Regards, .. .. >   Posted by: " Roni Molin " matchermaam@... >   <mailto:matchermaam@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20new%20numbers> >   matchermaam <matchermaam> > > >    Tue May 10, 2011 9:57 am (PDT) > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi> > > This is what I was saying about qi, that it's comparable to energy. > The languages are just different, like love in english meaning the > same a amore in french. > > http://diamondhead.net/p11.htm <http://diamondhead.net/p11.htm> > > This is what I was trying to say about yin and yang. > > I try to stay open to everything, because even if I only gain one > kernel of new knowledge or understanding, I have gained from my > openness. JMHO! > > Roni > > > > From: <res075oh@... <mailto:res075oh%40verizon.net>> > hypothyroidism > <mailto:hypothyroidism%40> > Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 9:19 AM > Subject: Re: new numbers > > Hi, Roni. Scientists understand the energy of our bodies pretty darned > well and qi isn't anywhere to be seen. As for yin and yang, science is > not only concerned with the fact that something " works " but attempts to > understand the principles that cause it to work. Yin/yang are > scientifically much less than Newton's laws of motion and IMHO > philosophically much more. There really isn't any science in a > discussion of qi or of yin/yang. There are no proposals for any method > to detect or measure them. OTOH the theory of electromagnetism is > pretty much fleshed out. That IS science. > > Regards, > ------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2011 Report Share Posted May 13, 2011 Congratulations! Thank you also for your support and guidance. From: Roni Molin <matchermaam@...> Subject: Re: Re: new numbers " hypothyroidism " <hypothyroidism > Date: Thursday, May 12, 2011, 6:26 PM  I'm feeling too happy to debate. My blood pressure at the doctor was 126/60. No allopathic medications because I'm allergic, so instead I was told by one of my Cardios to take 4000mgs of fish oil ( I can only manage 3600 so far) and 300 units of CoQ10.  Let's agree to disagree.  Roni From: <res075oh@...> hypothyroidism Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 7:49 AM Subject: Re: new numbers Below are the introductory parts of Wikipedia's discussion of both ENERGY and QI. You can find [or force] some correlations if you push hard enough but on the surface to me they're talking about two different things. The attributes discussed for energy can be readily detected, measured and described in specific detail and then mathematically. The attributes for qi are nebulous and shifting as the wind with nothing you can really nail down as a fact that all researchers would agree upon. .. > In physics <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physics>, *energy* (Ancient > Greek <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek>: á¼Î½ÎÏγεια /energeia > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energeia>/ " activity, operation " ^[1] > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy#cite_note-0> ) is a quantity that > is often understood as the ability a physical system > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_system> has to do work > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_%28physics%29> on other physical > systems.^[2] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy#cite_note-1> ^[3] > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy#cite_note-2> Since work is > defined as a force <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force> acting through > a distance (a length of space), energy is always equivalent to the > ability to exert pulls or pushes against the basic forces of nature, > along a path of a certain length. > > The total energy contained in an object is identified with its mass > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass>, and energy (like mass), cannot be > created or destroyed. When matter > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter> (ordinary material particles) is > changed into energy (such as energy of motion, or into radiation), the > *mass* of the system does not change through the transformation process. .. > In traditional Chinese culture > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_culture>, *qi* (also chi or > ch'i) is an active principle forming part of any living thing. Qi is > frequently translated as " energy > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_%28esotericism%29> flow " , and is > often compared to Western > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture> notions of energeia > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energeia> or élan vital > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89lan_vital> (vitalism > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitalism>), as well as the yogic > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoga> notion of prana > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prana> and pranayama > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pranayama>. The literal translation > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Translation> of " qi " is air, breath, or gas. .. .. You are, of course, quite free to put your interpretation on either or both. If I try to do that by saying in one A corresponds to X in the other and B corresponds to Y and C corresponds to Z then I find no meaningful results. That does not necessarily mean that it cannot be useful philosophically; OTOH it would be foolish to call it science. Regards, .. .. >   Posted by: " Roni Molin " matchermaam@... >   <mailto:matchermaam@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20new%20numbers> >   matchermaam <matchermaam> > > >    Tue May 10, 2011 9:57 am (PDT) > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi> > > This is what I was saying about qi, that it's comparable to energy. > The languages are just different, like love in english meaning the > same a amore in french. > > http://diamondhead.net/p11.htm <http://diamondhead.net/p11.htm> > > This is what I was trying to say about yin and yang. > > I try to stay open to everything, because even if I only gain one > kernel of new knowledge or understanding, I have gained from my > openness. JMHO! > > Roni > > > > From: <res075oh@... <mailto:res075oh%40verizon.net>> > hypothyroidism > <mailto:hypothyroidism%40> > Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 9:19 AM > Subject: Re: new numbers > > Hi, Roni. Scientists understand the energy of our bodies pretty darned > well and qi isn't anywhere to be seen. As for yin and yang, science is > not only concerned with the fact that something " works " but attempts to > understand the principles that cause it to work. Yin/yang are > scientifically much less than Newton's laws of motion and IMHO > philosophically much more. There really isn't any science in a > discussion of qi or of yin/yang. There are no proposals for any method > to detect or measure them. OTOH the theory of electromagnetism is > pretty much fleshed out. That IS science. > > Regards, > ------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2011 Report Share Posted May 13, 2011 Yes Roni. Thanks for posting on this very important issue. Here is an article I had bookmarked on MIT's involvement in Qi Gong and alternative medicine. No doubt the Massachusetts Institute of Technology home to Einstein finds this is something worth studying. http://tech.mit.edu/V122/N1/1conf.1n.html Here is another article I had on Acupuncture, www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2010/05/31/2914057.htm ....and another one from the Qi Gong institute: www.qigonginstitute.org/html/papers/BOOKREVIEW4SQE.pdf Like with everything else a philosophical shift in our consciousness helps understand many issues of the real world. So western scientist have been slow in detecting what eastern scientists have known all along. And about time. Scientist will argue with each other on everything and this subject is no different. The are still going on about Quantum Sciences and this does not detract from the veracity of this field. It is no secret that our present medical system is mired in shortsightedness, self-centeredness and corruption. The quality of health care is suffering tremendously because of this and we too have responsibility here... responsibility for ourselves in looking beyond what is being offered and finding a viable alternative else where. As you know I did find a wonderful alternative and I'm not the only one. I never removed this group from my email and I read posts from time to time. After my four year ordeal I'm still interested in the issue and occasionally I contribute with some advice as I like to share my story in the event that it might help some one. Good luck in your quest. > > Exactly! That is why to label protocols that have been around for thousands of years and are still working (not for everyone) as quackery, or inferior to allopathic medicine which is working (not for everyone) strikes me as short sighted. We are learning new things every day about medicine and the universe as well. Someday, the practice of medicine as it's done today will be laughed at and called barbaric. Unfortunately, we who are ill today with ailments that are not known, diagnosed and/or treated properly are the guinea pigs and will remain so. > > Oh yes, as far as meridians. They are known to exist in the world, and I do believe they have been also validated as existing in the body, but I'm not positive about that. Allopathic doctors, most of them, don't believe in alternative approaches, however the top spinal surgeons of University of Washington are totally unsatisfied with the tools they have for spinal/disc problems, and advise that alternative methods such as chiropractic, accupunture, physical therapy are just as efficacious, if not better than surgery. Where I live that instiution runs TV programs all the time about different things, what they are doing and what's available and what works. Some doctors won't even acknowledge that chiropractic is valid. > > Roni > > From: <res075oh@...> > hypothyroidism > Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 8:02 AM > Subject: Re: new numbers > > The apparent existence of and the search for dark energy and dark matter > are interesting to say the least. Now add in the findings of the most > distant galaxies that do not appear to have the constituents that we > might expect and a lot of what we think we know about cosmology comes > into question. Even the big bang itself might conceivably fall for a > newer theory; but I don't see how whatever replaces it could fail to > have some of the same characteristics. > > It's also possible [probable?] that if dark matter/dark energy are > confirmed as real and come to be understood that they may also challenge > [and change] our concept of physics on all levels. Chuck could probably > give you a darned good guess as to how probable any of my ramblings are; > I'm pretty much lost in trying to put it all together. I think Kaku > suggests that what we see of the Universe is only about 4% and the rest > is pretty much totally invisible to us. > > Regards, > > . > . > > > > Posted by: " Roni Molin " matchermaam@... > > <mailto:matchermaam@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20new%20numbers> > > matchermaam <matchermaam> > > > > > > Tue May 10, 2011 10:05 am (PDT) > > > > > > > > Scientific knowledge and understanding is changing every day. New > > discoveries produce new theories, new medical protocols, new cures and > > new understanding. I look forward to the new information that is > > discovered all the time. > > > > > > http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Searching_for_dark_matter_and_antimatter_999.h\ tml > > <http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Searching_for_dark_matter_and_antimatter_999.\ html> > > > > Roni > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2011 Report Share Posted May 14, 2011 Someone asked about blood pressure, and I am not sure who it was, so I will just report what I have noticed after taking Vitamin E. My blood pressure is a little lower and it seems to be more stable. Not those ups and downs. I take 400 mg of E. Of course E is not for everyone and you have to see if it has an interaction with any other meds you take. I have been very pleased with my results on E My blood pressure is not high, so not sure if that makes any difference or not. Might be worth trying to anyone who can take Vitamin E. Susie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2011 Report Share Posted May 14, 2011 I'm sincerely glad you're feel great. ly I worry about your health... Regards, .. .. > Posted by: " Roni Molin " matchermaam@... > <mailto:matchermaam@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20new%20numbers> > matchermaam <matchermaam> > > > Thu May 12, 2011 3:26 pm (PDT) > > > > I'm feeling too happy to debate. My blood pressure at the doctor was > 126/60. No allopathic medications because I'm allergic, so instead I > was told by one of my Cardios to take 4000mgs of fish oil ( I can only > manage 3600 so far) and 300 units of CoQ10. > > Let's agree to disagree. > > Roni Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2011 Report Share Posted May 14, 2011 Awww, that is so sweet. Thank you. It's nice to know people care about you. Roni From: <res075oh@...> hypothyroidism Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2011 9:14 AM Subject: Re: new numbers I'm sincerely glad you're feel great. ly I worry about your health... Regards, .. .. > Posted by: " Roni Molin " matchermaam@... > <mailto:matchermaam@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20new%20numbers> > matchermaam <matchermaam> > > > Thu May 12, 2011 3:26 pm (PDT) > > > > I'm feeling too happy to debate. My blood pressure at the doctor was > 126/60. No allopathic medications because I'm allergic, so instead I > was told by one of my Cardios to take 4000mgs of fish oil ( I can only > manage 3600 so far) and 300 units of CoQ10. > > Let's agree to disagree. > > Roni ------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2011 Report Share Posted May 15, 2011 , You wrote: > ... No doubt the Massachusetts Institute of Technology home to Einstein finds this is something worth studying.... MIT was not home to Einstein. He was at Princeton. Unless, of course, you mean Herb Einstein in the Dept. of Civil Engineering. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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