Re: Intro - for hubby - HELP!!

January 18, 2008

The E2 is very high & the T is very low.

Most men with these levels also have high cholestrol. I have not

seen studies on why this happens.

Meds will bring down the lipids & cholestrol. But take the very

lowest dose that works. Statins have many side-effects

>

> Hi all!

>

> I am new to this group and am posting for my husband. Its been a

> while, but have posted with Phil before at real thyroid help.

>

> Looks like his main problem is low testosterone, but he does have

low

> adrenals and its possible the thyroid could use some help.

>

> A brief history -

>

> He is 35. First went to doc in June '07 with fatigue, muscle

> weakness, low sex drive. Blood work results showed elevated EBV

> antibodies.

> Other results as follows:

>

> Testosterone, Serum: 212 (241-287)

> Testosterone, Free: 9.77 (5.0 - 21.0)

> TSH: 2.545 (.35 - 5.5)

> Free T3 : 3.2 (2.3-4.2)

> Estrogens, Total: 248 (40 - 115)

> Also, cholesterol was high as it usually is.

>

> We had done an adrenal saliva test prior to this and his adrenals

are

> not good. Stage 5 I think. He is taking 25 mg. HC

>

> Doc (an osteopath that I see) thought it might be his pituitary and

he

> had never seen testosterone that low in someone his age. Did more

> bloodwork in July '07 to figure out what was going on. Phil had

> advised us to check estradiol, but this doc didn't want to.

>

> Testosterone, Serum: 255 (241-827)

> Testosterone, Free: 9.64 (5.0 - 21.0)

> LH: 4.2 (1.5-9.3)

> FSH: 5.9 (1.4-18.1)

> Prolactin, Serum: 55 (22-322)

>

> Doc still baffled and sends him onto an endo. Appt. not til

Oct. '07.

> In the interim I did have him try DIM for a month even though we

> hadn't checked estradiol. There was no difference.

>

> Results of Oct. bloodwork:

>

> Testosterone, Serum: 376 (241-927)

> Testosterone, Free: 10.1 (8.7-25.1)

> LH: 2.4 (1.5-9.3)

> FSH: 3.8 (1.4-18.1)

>

> So, the endo says its not his pituitary and that now technically

his T

> is in range, but says he can go on testosterone if he wants. He

says

> yes and has been using the gel for the past couple of months. Felt

> pretty good for maybe a week and then not as good, but still not as

> much weakness.

>

> Just saw endo yesterday and recent labs show his serum testosterone

to

> be down to 206. lowest its been the whole time. Don't know what the

> free was here. Also, the endo was very concerned because his blood

> was lipemic and full of cholesterol (even though they didn't check

> cholesterol). He wants him to go on statins which I am less than

> thrilled about.

>

> Said T was lower because he had gone on meds and pituitary is

shutting

> down his own bodies production. He has increased his dose of the

gel.

>

> I know a ton about thyroid/adrenals, but I am lost when it comes to

> testosterone. We really need some guidance.

>

> Would the lower T cause his blood to be lipemic and as it gets

> straightened out that will improve? He really eats a pretty good

diet

> - not no carb, but lower carb.

>

> Is increasing the gel the right thing to do? How do we know if this

> is or isn't a pituitary problem? I don't really trust the endo on

this.

>

> Do we really need to have the estradiol checked still? We'll do it

on

> our own if necessary.

>

> Thanks so much!

> Trish

>

January 18, 2008

Toward the top of your post, your husband's estogens shows a 248 count

which appears to be off the chart over the high end of the range you

posted. This obviously is abnormal, and should have prompted his doc

to test it again, and regularly. It is not only the amount of

testosterone, but the ratio or testosteroen to estrogen in a males that

dictates how he lives and feels. Your husband not only has low T but

also high E, so clearly his ratio is way off. Taking DIM is not going

to bring his sky high estrogens blood test counts back down to normal,

it may have to involve taking Femera or other prescription estrogen

blocking drugs, possibly in combination with a high does of skin spread

ons like androgel (the most expensive form of TRT), he may feel alot

better self injecting testosterone on the regimin most are on here.

A lOT of guys do not react well to T applied topically.

I am sure Philip and others will have much more to say on this than I.

Norton

January 18, 2008

Hi Trish it's good to see you hear,

If the Endo started him on 5 g's of gel and he felt better for a week then

fell back. This happens a lot and the Endo should have had him back in 2 weeks

to check this. Here is what happens his levels before the gel were 255 he did

the DIM and his next test came up to 376 free came up but not much. This tells

me his Estradiol is on the high side and needs to be checked. His LH and FSH

are dam low so if his testis did not work the LH and FSH would be at the top of

the range or over asking for more testosteone. He has a pituitary problem and I

would do an MRI on it to rule out a tumor.

Now he adds in the gel I am guessing it was 5 grams a low starting dose. His

brain sees the gel testosterone in his blood and stops sending the LH and FSH to

the testis that were making 376 on the test of testosterone. Now all he is left

with is what the gel is doing 206. He felt good the first week because his

levels went up from 376 + 206= 582 this is why he felt good for a week. So the

next step is to go higher on the gel to 10 grams.

I don't understand for the life of me why Dr.'s will not test Estradiol in

men. All this tells me is they are not up on low testosterone in man. When a

mans Estradiol " E2 " is high the brain sees this as testosterone because it can't

tell the difference. So when E2 is very high it stops sending the LH and FSH to

the testis to make Testosterone. So before you do an MRI get this checked. How

long was he on the Indolplex/DIM.

Here is a link you can show the Dr.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/89/3/1174

and this link.

http://www.medibolics.com/ArimidexBoostsTestosterone.htm

Also if he has a thyroid problem for some it thickens the skin and gels don't

work so don't let the Dr. make him wate to long for his next test. In 4 to 6

weeks test again.

IF his levels are not up into the upper 1/3 of his labs range then switch to

shots starting at 100mgs every week. And keep his E2 down between 10 to 30 best

at 20 do not test Total Estrogens the bad guy here is Estradiol " E2 " .

As for his lipemic and full of cholesterol the body nees Cholestrol to make

hormones and it's possible for it to go up because his testosterone levels are

so low the body is trying to help in every way possible. So this can be why

still keep an eye on this and when he gets his Testosterone levels up and

leveled and if this does not get better then treat it.

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1440-1681.1986.tb00933.x?cook\

ieSet=1 & journalCode=cep

Trisha Mountan <tmountan@...> wrote: Hi all!

I am new to this group and am posting for my husband. Its been a

while, but have posted with Phil before at real thyroid help.

Looks like his main problem is low testosterone, but he does have low

adrenals and its possible the thyroid could use some help.

A brief history -

He is 35. First went to doc in June '07 with fatigue, muscle

weakness, low sex drive. Blood work results showed elevated EBV

antibodies.

Other results as follows:

Testosterone, Serum: 212 (241-287)

Testosterone, Free: 9.77 (5.0 - 21.0)

TSH: 2.545 (.35 - 5.5)

Free T3 : 3.2 (2.3-4.2)

Estrogens, Total: 248 (40 - 115)

Also, cholesterol was high as it usually is.

We had done an adrenal saliva test prior to this and his adrenals are

not good. Stage 5 I think. He is taking 25 mg. HC

Doc (an osteopath that I see) thought it might be his pituitary and he

had never seen testosterone that low in someone his age. Did more

bloodwork in July '07 to figure out what was going on. Phil had

advised us to check estradiol, but this doc didn't want to.

Testosterone, Serum: 255 (241-827)

Testosterone, Free: 9.64 (5.0 - 21.0)

LH: 4.2 (1.5-9.3)

FSH: 5.9 (1.4-18.1)

Prolactin, Serum: 55 (22-322)

Doc still baffled and sends him onto an endo. Appt. not til Oct. '07.

In the interim I did have him try DIM for a month even though we

hadn't checked estradiol. There was no difference.

Results of Oct. bloodwork:

Testosterone, Serum: 376 (241-927)

Testosterone, Free: 10.1 (8.7-25.1)

LH: 2.4 (1.5-9.3)

FSH: 3.8 (1.4-18.1)

So, the endo says its not his pituitary and that now technically his T

is in range, but says he can go on testosterone if he wants. He says

yes and has been using the gel for the past couple of months. Felt

pretty good for maybe a week and then not as good, but still not as

much weakness.

Just saw endo yesterday and recent labs show his serum testosterone to

be down to 206. lowest its been the whole time. Don't know what the

free was here. Also, the endo was very concerned because his blood

was lipemic and full of cholesterol (even though they didn't check

cholesterol). He wants him to go on statins which I am less than

thrilled about.

Said T was lower because he had gone on meds and pituitary is shutting

down his own bodies production. He has increased his dose of the gel.

I know a ton about thyroid/adrenals, but I am lost when it comes to

testosterone. We really need some guidance.

Would the lower T cause his blood to be lipemic and as it gets

straightened out that will improve? He really eats a pretty good diet

- not no carb, but lower carb.

Is increasing the gel the right thing to do? How do we know if this

is or isn't a pituitary problem? I don't really trust the endo on this.

Do we really need to have the estradiol checked still? We'll do it on

our own if necessary.

Thanks so much!

Trish

Co-Moderator " Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see. "

Phil

---------------------------------

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now.

January 18, 2008

Trisha

As a former gel user my opinion is get him off the gels and into

shots ASAP.

In a lot of men, myself included, gels do not work. They can not be

asorbed through the skin.

I also tried the patches, what a bummer.

I finally had a long talk with my primary care doctor (PCP) he did

blood work and my T came back at 120 after a shot 3 weeks before, I

now do 300 mg every 10 days and feel much better.

I have to have back surgery the end of the month and the nuerosurgeon

was supprised at how strong I am at 65. We talked about the T shots

and agreed that keep my going for years with my bad back.

Also, another bad thing about gels is that they make your blood

thicker, Hemoratic(ms), If you have any history or auto-imune dease

or heart trouble you do not want this. My arthritis Dr complained all

the time about my thick blood while I was on gels, After changing to

shots he was suprised at how much better my blood work was and said

stay off gels.

In my humble opinion shots every 7 - 10 days worked best for me. I

had all the same symptoms.

Good Luck

Jack

>

> Hi all!

>

> I am new to this group and am posting for my husband. Its been a

> while, but have posted with Phil before at real thyroid help.

>

> Looks like his main problem is low testosterone, but he does have

low

> adrenals and its possible the thyroid could use some help.

>

> A brief history -

>

> He is 35. First went to doc in June '07 with fatigue, muscle

> weakness, low sex drive. Blood work results showed elevated EBV

> antibodies.

> Other results as follows:

>

> Testosterone, Serum: 212 (241-287)

> Testosterone, Free: 9.77 (5.0 - 21.0)

> TSH: 2.545 (.35 - 5.5)

> Free T3 : 3.2 (2.3-4.2)

> Estrogens, Total: 248 (40 - 115)

> Also, cholesterol was high as it usually is.

>

> We had done an adrenal saliva test prior to this and his adrenals

are

> not good. Stage 5 I think. He is taking 25 mg. HC

>

> Doc (an osteopath that I see) thought it might be his pituitary and

he

> had never seen testosterone that low in someone his age. Did more

> bloodwork in July '07 to figure out what was going on. Phil had

> advised us to check estradiol, but this doc didn't want to.

>

> Testosterone, Serum: 255 (241-827)

> Testosterone, Free: 9.64 (5.0 - 21.0)

> LH: 4.2 (1.5-9.3)

> FSH: 5.9 (1.4-18.1)

> Prolactin, Serum: 55 (22-322)

>

> Doc still baffled and sends him onto an endo. Appt. not til

Oct. '07.

> In the interim I did have him try DIM for a month even though we

> hadn't checked estradiol. There was no difference.

>

> Results of Oct. bloodwork:

>

> Testosterone, Serum: 376 (241-927)

> Testosterone, Free: 10.1 (8.7-25.1)

> LH: 2.4 (1.5-9.3)

> FSH: 3.8 (1.4-18.1)

>

> So, the endo says its not his pituitary and that now technically

his T

> is in range, but says he can go on testosterone if he wants. He

says

> yes and has been using the gel for the past couple of months. Felt

> pretty good for maybe a week and then not as good, but still not as

> much weakness.

>

> Just saw endo yesterday and recent labs show his serum testosterone

to

> be down to 206. lowest its been the whole time. Don't know what the

> free was here. Also, the endo was very concerned because his blood

> was lipemic and full of cholesterol (even though they didn't check

> cholesterol). He wants him to go on statins which I am less than

> thrilled about.

>

> Said T was lower because he had gone on meds and pituitary is

shutting

> down his own bodies production. He has increased his dose of the

gel.

>

> I know a ton about thyroid/adrenals, but I am lost when it comes to

> testosterone. We really need some guidance.

>

> Would the lower T cause his blood to be lipemic and as it gets

> straightened out that will improve? He really eats a pretty good

diet

> - not no carb, but lower carb.

>

> Is increasing the gel the right thing to do? How do we know if this

> is or isn't a pituitary problem? I don't really trust the endo on

this.

>

> Do we really need to have the estradiol checked still? We'll do it

on

> our own if necessary.

>

> Thanks so much!

> Trish

>

January 18, 2008

Hey Trish - welcome to the group - your husband appears to me to not be

absorbing well. I would suggest trying the injections and get his total T in the

600-700 range. Also as others have mentioned, you need to keep the estradiol

level < 30 - for me more optimum number is 20-25.

I tried androgel and could not get past the 225 point - and it was a real pain

in the butt getting that much gel on everyday. For me the injections was so much

better and so much easier to optimize. We are all different and you have to find

out what works for you. My opinion is if your T is < 500 and your E2 is not in

the right proportion then the benefits of TRT is limited.

Arkansas

Trisha Mountan <tmountan@...> wrote:

Hi all!

I am new to this group and am posting for my husband. Its been a

while, but have posted with Phil before at real thyroid help.

Looks like his main problem is low testosterone, but he does have low

adrenals and its possible the thyroid could use some help.

A brief history -

He is 35. First went to doc in June '07 with fatigue, muscle

weakness, low sex drive. Blood work results showed elevated EBV

antibodies.

Other results as follows:

Testosterone, Serum: 212 (241-287)

Testosterone, Free: 9.77 (5.0 - 21.0)

TSH: 2.545 (.35 - 5.5)

Free T3 : 3.2 (2.3-4.2)

Estrogens, Total: 248 (40 - 115)

Also, cholesterol was high as it usually is.

We had done an adrenal saliva test prior to this and his adrenals are

not good. Stage 5 I think. He is taking 25 mg. HC

Doc (an osteopath that I see) thought it might be his pituitary and he

had never seen testosterone that low in someone his age. Did more

bloodwork in July '07 to figure out what was going on. Phil had

advised us to check estradiol, but this doc didn't want to.

Testosterone, Serum: 255 (241-827)

Testosterone, Free: 9.64 (5.0 - 21.0)

LH: 4.2 (1.5-9.3)

FSH: 5.9 (1.4-18.1)

Prolactin, Serum: 55 (22-322)

Doc still baffled and sends him onto an endo. Appt. not til Oct. '07.

In the interim I did have him try DIM for a month even though we

hadn't checked estradiol. There was no difference.

Results of Oct. bloodwork:

Testosterone, Serum: 376 (241-927)

Testosterone, Free: 10.1 (8.7-25.1)

LH: 2.4 (1.5-9.3)

FSH: 3.8 (1.4-18.1)

So, the endo says its not his pituitary and that now technically his T

is in range, but says he can go on testosterone if he wants. He says

yes and has been using the gel for the past couple of months. Felt

pretty good for maybe a week and then not as good, but still not as

much weakness.

Just saw endo yesterday and recent labs show his serum testosterone to

be down to 206. lowest its been the whole time. Don't know what the

free was here. Also, the endo was very concerned because his blood

was lipemic and full of cholesterol (even though they didn't check

cholesterol). He wants him to go on statins which I am less than

thrilled about.

Said T was lower because he had gone on meds and pituitary is shutting

down his own bodies production. He has increased his dose of the gel.

I know a ton about thyroid/adrenals, but I am lost when it comes to

testosterone. We really need some guidance.

Would the lower T cause his blood to be lipemic and as it gets

straightened out that will improve? He really eats a pretty good diet

- not no carb, but lower carb.

Is increasing the gel the right thing to do? How do we know if this

is or isn't a pituitary problem? I don't really trust the endo on this.

Do we really need to have the estradiol checked still? We'll do it on

our own if necessary.

Thanks so much!

Trish

---------------------------------

Never miss a thing. Make your homepage.

January 18, 2008

Thank you sooo much Phil and everyone else who responded with info for

me. It is all very helpful! I am going to take some time to read

through posts and links again and will probably have more questions.

To answer your question, Phil, I think he was on DIM about a month.

He went through one bottle.

One question right now, though. How does the cost of the injections

compare to the cost of the androgel? I think we are paying $185/month

for the gel. It is killing us!

Trish

>

> Hi Trish it's good to see you hear,

> If the Endo started him on 5 g's of gel and he felt better for a

week then fell back. This happens a lot and the Endo should have had

him back in 2 weeks to check this. Here is what happens his levels

before the gel were 255 he did the DIM and his next test came up to

376 free came up but not much. This tells me his Estradiol is on the

high side and needs to be checked. His LH and FSH are dam low so if

his testis did not work the LH and FSH would be at the top of the

range or over asking for more testosteone. He has a pituitary problem

and I would do an MRI on it to rule out a tumor.

>

> Now he adds in the gel I am guessing it was 5 grams a low starting

dose. His brain sees the gel testosterone in his blood and stops

sending the LH and FSH to the testis that were making 376 on the test

of testosterone. Now all he is left with is what the gel is doing

206. He felt good the first week because his levels went up from 376

+ 206= 582 this is why he felt good for a week. So the next step is

to go higher on the gel to 10 grams.

>

> I don't understand for the life of me why Dr.'s will not test

Estradiol in men. All this tells me is they are not up on low

testosterone in man. When a mans Estradiol " E2 " is high the brain

sees this as testosterone because it can't tell the difference. So

when E2 is very high it stops sending the LH and FSH to the testis to

make Testosterone. So before you do an MRI get this checked. How

long was he on the Indolplex/DIM.

>

> Here is a link you can show the Dr.

> http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/89/3/1174

> and this link.

> http://www.medibolics.com/ArimidexBoostsTestosterone.htm

>

> Also if he has a thyroid problem for some it thickens the skin and

gels don't work so don't let the Dr. make him wate to long for his

next test. In 4 to 6 weeks test again.

>

> IF his levels are not up into the upper 1/3 of his labs range then

switch to shots starting at 100mgs every week. And keep his E2 down

between 10 to 30 best at 20 do not test Total Estrogens the bad guy

here is Estradiol " E2 " .

>

> As for his lipemic and full of cholesterol the body nees

Cholestrol to make hormones and it's possible for it to go up because

his testosterone levels are so low the body is trying to help in every

way possible. So this can be why still keep an eye on this and when

he gets his Testosterone levels up and leveled and if this does not

get better then treat it.

>

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1440-1681.1986.tb00933.x?cook\

ieSet=1 & journalCode=cep

>

January 18, 2008

Your husband definitely needs an E2 test. E2 out competes testosterone

for many binding sites. His extremely high total estrogen suggests a

serious E2 problem.

He may be converting very large amounts of T to E2. SOme people get a

200 to 300 point boost in total T by simply blocking conversion to E2

with arimidex.

In any case he needs an E2 test to make any sort of intelligent

decision about what's going on.

Also many of us don't have good results on the gel. Absorbtion varies

widely and some of us have found that absorbtion decreases over time.

The gel leads to thickening skin and hair growth which decreases

absorbtion. I find weekly shots preferable.

On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 13:21:01 -0000, you wrote:

>Hi all!

>

>I am new to this group and am posting for my husband. Its been a

>while, but have posted with Phil before at real thyroid help.

>

>Looks like his main problem is low testosterone, but he does have low

>adrenals and its possible the thyroid could use some help.

>

>A brief history -

>

>He is 35. First went to doc in June '07 with fatigue, muscle

>weakness, low sex drive. Blood work results showed elevated EBV

>antibodies.

>Other results as follows:

>

>Testosterone, Serum: 212 (241-287)

>Testosterone, Free: 9.77 (5.0 - 21.0)

>TSH: 2.545 (.35 - 5.5)

>Free T3 : 3.2 (2.3-4.2)

>Estrogens, Total: 248 (40 - 115)

>Also, cholesterol was high as it usually is.

>

>We had done an adrenal saliva test prior to this and his adrenals are

>not good. Stage 5 I think. He is taking 25 mg. HC

>

>Doc (an osteopath that I see) thought it might be his pituitary and he

>had never seen testosterone that low in someone his age. Did more

>bloodwork in July '07 to figure out what was going on. Phil had

>advised us to check estradiol, but this doc didn't want to.

>

>Testosterone, Serum: 255 (241-827)

>Testosterone, Free: 9.64 (5.0 - 21.0)

>LH: 4.2 (1.5-9.3)

>FSH: 5.9 (1.4-18.1)

>Prolactin, Serum: 55 (22-322)

>

>Doc still baffled and sends him onto an endo. Appt. not til Oct. '07.

> In the interim I did have him try DIM for a month even though we

>hadn't checked estradiol. There was no difference.

>

>Results of Oct. bloodwork:

>

>Testosterone, Serum: 376 (241-927)

>Testosterone, Free: 10.1 (8.7-25.1)

>LH: 2.4 (1.5-9.3)

>FSH: 3.8 (1.4-18.1)

>

>So, the endo says its not his pituitary and that now technically his T

>is in range, but says he can go on testosterone if he wants. He says

>yes and has been using the gel for the past couple of months. Felt

>pretty good for maybe a week and then not as good, but still not as

>much weakness.

>

>Just saw endo yesterday and recent labs show his serum testosterone to

>be down to 206. lowest its been the whole time. Don't know what the

>free was here. Also, the endo was very concerned because his blood

>was lipemic and full of cholesterol (even though they didn't check

>cholesterol). He wants him to go on statins which I am less than

>thrilled about.

>

>Said T was lower because he had gone on meds and pituitary is shutting

>down his own bodies production. He has increased his dose of the gel.

>

>I know a ton about thyroid/adrenals, but I am lost when it comes to

>testosterone. We really need some guidance.

>

>Would the lower T cause his blood to be lipemic and as it gets

>straightened out that will improve? He really eats a pretty good diet

>- not no carb, but lower carb.

>

>Is increasing the gel the right thing to do? How do we know if this

>is or isn't a pituitary problem? I don't really trust the endo on this.

>

>Do we really need to have the estradiol checked still? We'll do it on

>our own if necessary.

>

>Thanks so much!

January 18, 2008

Hey Trish - shots are infinitely cheaper - One vial last me 4-5 months and cost

$35.