Guest guest Posted April 6, 1999 Report Share Posted April 6, 1999 April, I would not assume Lyme is rare in Arkansas. I know there are a lot of cases in Texas. States don't like to admit they have a problem as it hurts tourism. My opinion in your daughter's case would be to get the PCR test done. Nothing else is really reliable, especially in a case where she has been sick for awhile. a April L Tyree wrote: > > From: April L Tyree <tyree.pines@...> > > quoted an MSNBC article that said: > " When the test was performed on 100 samples of blood that was not > infected with Lyme disease, the test was positive in three cases. > According to the FDA, this rate of false-positive results is comparable > to existing lab tests. " > > Before her CFS diagnosis, my daughter tested positive on the Lyme > titer, but later tested reactive on only one band of the Western blot, > and had her preliminary diagnosis of Lyme overturned by the results. I > wonder what would happen on this new test? > > We live in tick infested woods (a tree farm actually, hence the email > name tyree.pines). However, Lyme in north central Arkansas is rare. She > never did have the tell-tale bull's eye rash either. We also tested for > tuleremia, which is a common tick-borne infection for these parts. My > husband had that several years ago, but our daughter tested negative on > it. I'm just wondering if this Lyme thing might be worth an extra look. > > April > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 18, 2000 Report Share Posted April 18, 2000 Hi Phil, All 30 patients in the Florida CFS Ampligen study tested positive on the LUAT test for Lyme. Another 7 out of 8 CFS patients in Los Angeles tested positive also. Al Lyme Test > There were posts I think a few months ago about a Lyme test I think > called the LUAT. Has anyone had this done? Is it supposed to be the most > accurate? My doctor wants to repeat my lyme test as some of the " bands " > are positive. I know nothing about these tests. > > Phil > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Avoid the lines and visit avis.com for quick and easy online > reservations. Enjoy a compact car nationwide for only $29 a day! > Click here for more details. > 1/3011/2/_/531724/_/956079345/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 18, 2000 Report Share Posted April 18, 2000 The Luat test is a urine test that tests antigen or antibodies to the spirochete that causes Lyme disease....many false positives have been reported...so buyer beware!!! Bands on my western blot came back positve also...it's which ones that came back positve is what is important...Do you know which bands they are....? Certain bands are more specific for the b.burg. other bands can be highly cross-reacitive meaning if you have other bacterial or viral infections or an auto-immune disease they can come back positve..... Lyme Test > > > > There were posts I think a few months ago about a Lyme test I think > > called the LUAT. Has anyone had this done? Is it supposed to be the most > > accurate? My doctor wants to repeat my lyme test as some of the " bands " > > are positive. I know nothing about these tests. > > > > Phil > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Avoid the lines and visit avis.com for quick and easy online > > reservations. Enjoy a compact car nationwide for only $29 a day! > > Click here for more details. > > 1/3011/2/_/531724/_/956079345/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each > other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment > discussed here, please consult your doctor. > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Your high school sweetheart-where is he now? With 4.4 million alumni > already registered at Classmates.com, there's a good chance you'll > find her here. Visit your online high school class reunion at: > 1/3139/2/_/531724/_/956092330/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 18, 2000 Report Share Posted April 18, 2000 Hi Hudecez, Nick , president of Igenex Labs says that the LUAT does not produce false positives. I am as skeptical as you on these positives but that what he says. Al Re: Lyme Test > The Luat test is a urine test that tests antigen or antibodies to the > spirochete that causes Lyme disease....many false positives have been > reported...so buyer beware!!! Bands on my western blot came back positve > also...it's which ones that came back positve is what is important...Do you > know which bands they are....? Certain bands are more specific for the > b.burg. other bands can be highly cross-reacitive meaning if you have other > bacterial or viral infections or an auto-immune disease they can come back > positve..... > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2000 Report Share Posted April 19, 2000 Hi, I have had it done twice - both times highly positive. Also had some bands positive on Western Blot 6 years ago. I will say again that I regret not following through on my lyme treatment because now I am late stage. Of course, this test could be discredited too - with my luck! But my current lyme doc says so far the LUAT is the most accurate test and has never seen a false positive. The WB wasn't repeated because the longer one has lyme, the less accurate the test because the spirochetes go into cyst form and antibodies to chetes do not show in serum. I would have the LUAT if for no other reason that to at least rule it out! Been dx'ed with EVERYTHING here! Christie ------------------------------ > >>> There were posts I think a few months ago about a Lyme test I think >> called the LUAT. Has anyone had this done? Is it supposed to be the most >> accurate? My doctor wants to repeat my lyme test as some of the " bands " >> are positive. I know nothing about these tests. >> >> Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2000 Report Share Posted April 19, 2000 Of course he is going to say that but has he every done a control study with people who have auto-immune disease-other than cfids-and pcr diagnosed Lyme patients-?--I jsut cannot beleive that when the Ampligen study was going on and they tested pateints that a good % of then came out positive-over 80%- I can't nelevie that all of these people had Lyme disese...but that is what the Lyme world wants everyone to think...that all cfids is Lyme....welll I'm here to say...IT'S NOT! I cannot beleive that at all-this test is cross reacting and picking up something else!!!!!!!! Mine never came out positive but I know that all of these tests are prone to cross-react regardless of what he says!!!!! Of course he's not going to say, " sure we have a problem with fale-positives " it's all politics and money once again...I am going to call them muyslef today! Re: Lyme Test > > > > The Luat test is a urine test that tests antigen or antibodies to the > > spirochete that causes Lyme disease....many false positives have been > > reported...so buyer beware!!! Bands on my western blot came back positve > > also...it's which ones that came back positve is what is important...Do > you > > know which bands they are....? Certain bands are more specific for the > > b.burg. other bands can be highly cross-reacitive meaning if you have > other > > bacterial or viral infections or an auto-immune disease they can come > back > > positve..... > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Avoid the lines and visit avis.com for quick and easy online > reservations. Enjoy a compact car nationwide for only $29 a day! > Click here for more details. > 1/3011/2/_/531724/_/956096467/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2000 Report Share Posted April 19, 2000 the test then cannot be accurate -- it is statistically impossible steve Al Melillo wrote: > Hi Phil, > All 30 patients in the Florida CFS Ampligen study tested positive on the > LUAT test for Lyme. Another 7 out of 8 CFS patients in Los Angeles tested > positive also. > Al > Lyme Test > > > There were posts I think a few months ago about a Lyme test I think > > called the LUAT. Has anyone had this done? Is it supposed to be the most > > accurate? My doctor wants to repeat my lyme test as some of the " bands " > > are positive. I know nothing about these tests. > > > > Phil > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Avoid the lines and visit avis.com for quick and easy online > > reservations. Enjoy a compact car nationwide for only $29 a day! > > Click here for more details. > > 1/3011/2/_/531724/_/956079345/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each > other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment > discussed here, please consult your doctor. > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Your high school sweetheart-where is he now? With 4.4 million alumni > already registered at Classmates.com, there's a good chance you'll > find her here. Visit your online high school class reunion at: > 1/3139/2/_/531724/_/956092330/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2000 Report Share Posted April 19, 2000 maybe he is a liar steve Al Melillo wrote: > Hi Hudecez, > Nick , president of Igenex Labs says that the LUAT does not > produce false positives. I am as skeptical as you on these positives but > that what he says. > Al > Re: Lyme Test > > > The Luat test is a urine test that tests antigen or antibodies to the > > spirochete that causes Lyme disease....many false positives have been > > reported...so buyer beware!!! Bands on my western blot came back positve > > also...it's which ones that came back positve is what is important...Do > you > > know which bands they are....? Certain bands are more specific for the > > b.burg. other bands can be highly cross-reacitive meaning if you have > other > > bacterial or viral infections or an auto-immune disease they can come > back > > positve..... > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Avoid the lines and visit avis.com for quick and easy online > reservations. Enjoy a compact car nationwide for only $29 a day! > Click here for more details. > 1/3011/2/_/531724/_/956096467/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2000 Report Share Posted April 19, 2000 Hi Steve, The test was recently certified by the State and he says that they frequently check the test for accuracy. How do you know if he is a liar? It's just speculation on your part. Al Re: Lyme Test > maybe he is a liar > steve > > Al Melillo wrote: > > > Hi Hudecez, > > Nick , president of Igenex Labs says that the LUAT does not > > produce false positives. I am as skeptical as you on these positives but > > that what he says. > > Al > > ----- Original Message ----- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2000 Report Share Posted April 19, 2000 Hi Steve, Neither of us are qualified to speculate on if the test is accurate. What qualifies you ? I'd like to know? Al Re: Lyme Test > the test then cannot be accurate -- it is statistically impossible > steve > > Al Melillo wrote: > > > Hi Phil, > > All 30 patients in the Florida CFS Ampligen study tested positive on the > > LUAT test for Lyme. Another 7 out of 8 CFS patients in Los Angeles tested > > positive also. > > Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2000 Report Share Posted April 19, 2000 Just basic knowledge of statistic. If 100 - 80% of CFSers are positive for lyme then either cfs & lyme are the same thing or one of the two does not exist (or there is unreliability in the measure) this would be true if we were talking pyschology. sociology, or biology -- it is basic measurement theory. You don't have to be a Ph.D. to know this -- but it dosn't hurt. Please do not get make I talking about a basic fact of measurement error . I not making a statement about you personally. If you think I am wrong show me -- but don't attach me attach my arguement. I didn't attach you I attached your argument -- which seems to be a weak one my the way. When you are being feed garbage a little critical thinking goes along way. Steve Al Melillo wrote: > Hi Steve, > Neither of us are qualified to speculate on if the test is accurate. What > qualifies you ? I'd like to know? > Al > Re: Lyme Test > > > the test then cannot be accurate -- it is statistically impossible > > steve > > > > Al Melillo wrote: > > > > > Hi Phil, > > > All 30 patients in the Florida CFS Ampligen study tested positive on > the > > > LUAT test for Lyme. Another 7 out of 8 CFS patients in Los Angeles > tested > > > positive also. > > > Al > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Good friends, school spirit, hair-dos you'd like to forget. > Classmates.com has them all. And with 4.4 million alumni already > registered, there's a good chance you'll find your friends here: > 1/2885/2/_/531724/_/956205841/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2000 Report Share Posted April 19, 2000 Ok then there is no such think as CFS just lyme disease mis dxed ( I doubt it) .... People do exagaerate the claims of there test & that my friend is lying. steve Al Melillo wrote: > Hi Steve, > The test was recently certified by the State and he says that they > frequently check the test for accuracy. How do you know if he is a liar? > It's just speculation on your part. > Al > Re: Lyme Test > > > maybe he is a liar > > steve > > > > Al Melillo wrote: > > > > > Hi Hudecez, > > > Nick , president of Igenex Labs says that the LUAT does not > > > produce false positives. I am as skeptical as you on these positives but > > > that what he says. > > > Al > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Earn money for every click! > 10% off any purchase, any time through > the pointclick network. > 1/3419/2/_/531724/_/956205523/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2000 Report Share Posted April 19, 2000 I agree with you totally Steve, the fact that all of those people with cfids tested postive for Lyme I think furthur discredits the test-it'sobviosuly cross-reacting with something else. Re: Lyme Test > > > > > maybe he is a liar > > > steve > > > > > > Al Melillo wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Hudecez, > > > > Nick , president of Igenex Labs says that the LUAT does not > > > > produce false positives. I am as skeptical as you on these positives but > > > > that what he says. > > > > Al > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Earn money for every click! > > 10% off any purchase, any time through > > the pointclick network. > > 1/3419/2/_/531724/_/956205523/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Good friends, school spirit, hair-dos you'd like to forget. > Classmates.com has them all. And with 4.4 million alumni already > registered, there's a good chance you'll find your friends here: > 1/2885/2/_/531724/_/956207158/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2000 Report Share Posted April 19, 2000 This is from : I just know form experience that all of the Lyme tests are unpredictable-the lab who did mine even said on their report that fals-positives can result form virals, other infections, ect.. and auto-immune diseases-the tests I am talking about are the Lyme antibody elisa, and the western blot.......not the Luat-mine came back negative by the way-I think twice....even still it just shows that the testing procedures are not refined...... Re: Lyme Test > > > > > the test then cannot be accurate -- it is statistically impossible > > > steve > > > > > > Al Melillo wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Phil, > > > > All 30 patients in the Florida CFS Ampligen study tested positive on > > the > > > > LUAT test for Lyme. Another 7 out of 8 CFS patients in Los Angeles > > tested > > > > positive also. > > > > Al > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Good friends, school spirit, hair-dos you'd like to forget. > > Classmates.com has them all. And with 4.4 million alumni already > > registered, there's a good chance you'll find your friends here: > > 1/2885/2/_/531724/_/956205841/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > You can win $1000! > Just one of 1000 great reasons to visit eGroups! > Click here: > 1/2865/2/_/531724/_/956207002/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2000 Report Share Posted April 20, 2000 <<< it'sobviosuly cross-reacting with something else. >>> don't we have this problem with other tests, too? believe i've heard of us having ambiguous hiv tests, too? @}{~{<<~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ debbie s. - dlsherman@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2000 Report Share Posted April 20, 2000 Steve, you avoided the question. You were asked what are your qualifications? Instead you answered with your own philosophy that is unproven and speculative. You don't want to admit you are not expert on this! I admitted I am not qualified to speculate why are you or qualified? Al Re: Lyme Test > Just basic knowledge of statistic. If 100 - 80% of CFSers are positive for lyme then either cfs & lyme are the same thing or one of the two does not exist (or there is unreliability in the measure) > this would be true if we were talking pyschology. sociology, or biology -- it is basic measurement theory. You don't have to be a Ph.D. to know this -- but it dosn't hurt. Please do not get make I > talking about a basic fact of measurement error . I not making a statement about you personally. If you think I am wrong show me -- but don't attach me attach my arguement. I didn't attach you I > attached your argument -- which seems to be a weak one my the way. When you are being feed garbage a little critical thinking goes along way. > Steve > > Al Melillo wrote: > > > Hi Steve, > > Neither of us are qualified to speculate on if the test is accurate. What > > qualifies you ? I'd like to know? > > Al > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2000 Report Share Posted April 20, 2000 Haven't you got it YET? You don't have to have a medical degree to be able to read!!!!!! I have researched and researched for my own sake-I wanted to make sure I didn't have lyme and I am convinced I don't...this only came after scrupulously going over lots and lots of information..........I just can't beleive you don't realize yet that the patients are sometimes more informed than the doctors......I do not have a medical degree but I did go to college for three years and consider myself fairly intelligent enough to see thru all of the bullshit! oops! are we aloud to swear? If not, sorry, and I won't do it again! (smile) It's all politics.....he surely isn't going to come out and say that he has a problem with false positives even if he knows damn well that he does...don't you think that might hurt is business a little? If your so concerned about this have you asked him for a study where they have taken two groups of people: one group with confirmed Lyme disease thru biopsy and culture and one group of patients with various documented auto-immune problems? I doubt very much if they have done this kind of trial or study because they don't want to know the truth-THAT THERE TESTS ARE FALLIBLE! Don't you get it yet? If I was you I would call the lab and ask for all of the studies and trials they have had concerning this LUAT test......by the way what makes him more qualified than me to have common sense!!! Re: Lyme Test > > > > Just basic knowledge of statistic. If 100 - 80% of CFSers are positive for > lyme then either cfs & lyme are the same thing or one of the two does not > exist (or there is unreliability in the measure) > > this would be true if we were talking pyschology. sociology, or biology -- > it is basic measurement theory. You don't have to be a Ph.D. to know this -- > but it dosn't hurt. Please do not get make I > > talking about a basic fact of measurement error . I not making a statement > about you personally. If you think I am wrong show me -- but don't attach me > attach my arguement. I didn't attach you I > > attached your argument -- which seems to be a weak one my the way. When > you are being feed garbage a little critical thinking goes along way. > > Steve > > > > Al Melillo wrote: > > > > > Hi Steve, > > > Neither of us are qualified to speculate on if the test is accurate. > What > > > qualifies you ? I'd like to know? > > > Al > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > GET WHO WANTS TO BE A MILLIONAIRE FREE! GET THE OFFICIAL COMPANION > TO TELEVISION'S HOTTEST GAME SHOW PHENOMENON PLUS 5 MORE BOOKS FOR > $2. Click for details. > 1/3014/2/_/531724/_/956265719/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2000 Report Share Posted April 20, 2000 I am an expert on the general issue of measurement and research methods. In the social sciences we have to be extreme vigilant on the issue of measurement and we never assume we are measuring what we say we are just because we believe we have a good measure. In the biological sciences people assume they are measuring what they say they are and do not address question the convergence and discrimination of measures. Two measures that measure the same thing should converge. Two measures that measure different things should discriminate. If the LUAT test cannot discriminate between Lyme & CFS then either Lyme & CFS are the same thing or the LUAT test is unreliable (and perhaps invalid). I have not particular opinion as to which scenario is true. What is your opinion -- you seem very vested in this issue Al -- so please help me out. Steve PS if you think Lyme and CFS are the same thing please let me know where I can get tested. I am not closed minded about this issue -- I don't really know what CFS is do you -- I'll nominate you for the nobel prize. Al Melillo wrote: > Steve, you avoided the question. You were asked what are your > qualifications? Instead you answered with your own philosophy that is > unproven and speculative. You don't want to admit you are not expert on > this! I admitted I am not qualified to speculate why are you or > qualified? > Al > Re: Lyme Test > > > Just basic knowledge of statistic. If 100 - 80% of CFSers are positive for > lyme then either cfs & lyme are the same thing or one of the two does not > exist (or there is unreliability in the measure) > > this would be true if we were talking pyschology. sociology, or biology -- > it is basic measurement theory. You don't have to be a Ph.D. to know this -- > but it dosn't hurt. Please do not get make I > > talking about a basic fact of measurement error . I not making a statement > about you personally. If you think I am wrong show me -- but don't attach me > attach my arguement. I didn't attach you I > > attached your argument -- which seems to be a weak one my the way. When > you are being feed garbage a little critical thinking goes along way. > > Steve > > > > Al Melillo wrote: > > > > > Hi Steve, > > > Neither of us are qualified to speculate on if the test is accurate. > What > > > qualifies you ? I'd like to know? > > > Al > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > GET WHO WANTS TO BE A MILLIONAIRE FREE! GET THE OFFICIAL COMPANION > TO TELEVISION'S HOTTEST GAME SHOW PHENOMENON PLUS 5 MORE BOOKS FOR > $2. Click for details. > 1/3014/2/_/531724/_/956265719/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2000 Report Share Posted April 20, 2000 Hi, These samples were very small. Perhaps these people did have lyme - or not. Certainly not all CFS people have lyme, however! Christie ------------------------------------ >Just basic knowledge of statistic. If 100 - 80% of CFSers are positive for lyme then either cfs & lyme are the same thing or one of the two does not exist (or there is unreliability in the measure) >this would be true if we were talking pyschology. sociology, or biology -- it is basic measurement theory. You don't have to be a Ph.D. to know this -- but it dosn't hurt. Please do not get make I >talking about a basic fact of measurement error . (SNIP) >Steve --------------------------- >Al Melillo wrote: > >> Hi Steve, >> Neither of us are qualified to speculate on if the test is accurate. What >> qualifies you ? I'd like to know? >> Al >> ------------------------------------ >> >> > the test then cannot be accurate -- it is statistically impossible >> > steve >> ------------------------------------- >> > Al Melillo wrote: >> >>> > > Hi Phil, >> > > All 30 patients in the Florida CFS Ampligen study tested positive on >> the LUAT test for Lyme. Another 7 out of 8 CFS patients in Los Angeles >> tested positive also. Al > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2000 Report Share Posted April 20, 2000 Hi, You guys are fighting. Please do this privately! This list cannot take another war. And as a lyme pt.- whether my dx is correct or not, I really don't want it to be about this issue. Or anything else for that matter. We all have our sensitivities, and must treat others with care and also let some things go. Take care, Christie ----------------------------- >Haven't you got it YET? You don't have to have a medical degree to be able >to read!!!!!! I have researched and researched for my own sake-I wanted to >make sure I didn't have lyme and I am convinced I don't...this only came >after scrupulously going over lots and lots of information..........I just >can't beleive you don't realize yet that the patients are sometimes more >informed than the doctors......I do not have a medical degree but I did go >to college for three years and consider myself fairly intelligent enough to >see thru all of the bullshit! oops! are we aloud to swear? If not, sorry, >and I won't do it again! (smile) >It's all politics.....he surely isn't going to come out and say that he has >a problem with false positives even if he knows damn well that he >does...don't you think that might hurt is business a little? If your so >concerned about this have you asked him for a study where they have taken >two groups of people: one group with confirmed Lyme disease thru biopsy and >culture and one group of patients with various documented auto-immune >problems? I doubt very much if they have done this kind of trial or study >because they don't want to know the truth-THAT THERE TESTS ARE FALLIBLE! >Don't you get it yet? If I was you I would call the lab and ask for all of >the studies and trials they have had concerning this LUAT test......by the >way what makes him more qualified than me to have common sense!!! > -------------------------- rom: " Al Melillo " <melillo3@...> >>> Steve, you avoided the question. You were asked what are your >> qualifications? Instead you answered with your own philosophy that is >> unproven and speculative. You don't want to admit you are not expert on >> this! I admitted I am not qualified to speculate why are you or >> qualified? >> Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2000 Report Share Posted April 21, 2000 Steve - As an engineer who depends on valid measurement principles and and techniques, I am in complete agreement with your expert opinions on Lyme testing and CFS. No doubt Lyme is a serious disease, but I think it is totally unrelated to CFS.. We have own, exclusive, virus and the Lyme folks have theirs - or whatever it is.. Mort Caldwell CFS since 1994. Presently at 30% functionality - physically. Maybe about 50% mental... enough to know Lyme from CFS.. ---------- From: Steve [sMTP:moores@...] Reply egroups Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2000 8:20 PM egroups Subject: Re: Lyme Test I am an expert on the general issue of measurement and research methods. In the social sciences we have to be extreme vigilant on the issue of measurement and we never assume we are measuring what we say we are just because we believe we have a good measure. In the biological sciences people assume they are measuring what they say they are and do not address question the convergence and discrimination of measures. Two measures that measure the same thing should converge. Two measures that measure different things should discriminate. If the LUAT test cannot discriminate between Lyme & CFS then either Lyme & CFS are the same thing or the LUAT test is unreliable (and perhaps invalid). I have not particular opinion as to which scenario is true. What is your opinion -- you seem very vested in this issue Al -- so please help me out. Steve PS if you think Lyme and CFS are the same thing please let me know where I can get tested. I am not closed minded about this issue -- I don't really know what CFS is do you -- I'll nominate you for the nobel prize. Al Melillo wrote: > Steve, you avoided the question. You were asked what are your > qualifications? Instead you answered with your own philosophy that is > unproven and speculative. You don't want to admit you are not expert on > this! I admitted I am not qualified to speculate why are you or > qualified? > Al > Re: Lyme Test > > > Just basic knowledge of statistic. If 100 - 80% of CFSers are positive for > lyme then either cfs & lyme are the same thing or one of the two does not > exist (or there is unreliability in the measure) > > this would be true if we were talking pyschology. sociology, or biology -- > it is basic measurement theory. You don't have to be a Ph.D. to know this -- > but it dosn't hurt. Please do not get make I > > talking about a basic fact of measurement error . I not making a statement > about you personally. If you think I am wrong show me -- but don't attach me > attach my arguement. I didn't attach you I > > attached your argument -- which seems to be a weak one my the way. When > you are being feed garbage a little critical thinking goes along way. > > Steve > > > > Al Melillo wrote: > > > > > Hi Steve, > > > Neither of us are qualified to speculate on if the test is accurate. > What > > > qualifies you ? I'd like to know? > > > Al > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > GET WHO WANTS TO BE A MILLIONAIRE FREE! GET THE OFFICIAL COMPANION > TO TELEVISION'S HOTTEST GAME SHOW PHENOMENON PLUS 5 MORE BOOKS FOR > $2. Click for details. > 1/3014/2/_/531724/_/956265719/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Enjoy the award-winning journalism of The New York Times with convenient home delivery. And for a limited time, get 50% off for the first 8 weeks by subscribing. Pay by credit card and receive an additional 4 weeks at this low introductory rate. 1/3102/2/_/531724/_/956276554/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2000 Report Share Posted April 21, 2000 what about the other studies that report a 80-90 % converge --see MK's site steve " C.Tab. " wrote: > Hi, > > These samples were very small. Perhaps these people did have lyme - or > not. Certainly not all CFS people have lyme, however! Christie > ------------------------------------ > > >Just basic knowledge of statistic. If 100 - 80% of CFSers are positive for > lyme then either cfs & lyme are the same thing or one of the two does not > exist (or there is unreliability in the measure) > >this would be true if we were talking pyschology. sociology, or biology -- > it is basic measurement theory. You don't have to be a Ph.D. to know this -- > but it dosn't hurt. Please do not get make I > >talking about a basic fact of measurement error . (SNIP) > >Steve > --------------------------- > >Al Melillo wrote: > > > >> Hi Steve, > >> Neither of us are qualified to speculate on if the test is accurate. What > >> qualifies you ? I'd like to know? > >> Al > >> ------------------------------------ > >> > >> > the test then cannot be accurate -- it is statistically impossible > >> > steve > >> ------------------------------------- > >> > Al Melillo wrote: > >> >>> > > Hi Phil, > >> > > All 30 patients in the Florida CFS Ampligen study tested positive on > >> the LUAT test for Lyme. Another 7 out of 8 CFS patients in Los Angeles > >> tested positive also. Al > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Your high school sweetheart-where is he now? With 4.4 million alumni > already registered at Classmates.com, there's a good chance you'll > find her here. Visit your online high school class reunion at: > 1/3139/2/_/531724/_/956286274/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2000 Report Share Posted April 21, 2000 Hi mort The question is not the disease but the ability of the test to distinguish one disease from another. I the test is is correct then we need to think about how we are conceptualizing the disease. My guess is that the test is picking up something that is common to both disease but I am not so dogmatic as to call this other than a guess. In this business a lot of folks but a number on a guess and call it a fact. Steve caldbio wrote: > Steve - > > As an engineer who depends on valid measurement principles and and > techniques, I am in complete agreement with your expert opinions on Lyme > testing and CFS. No doubt Lyme is a serious disease, but I think it is > totally unrelated to CFS.. We have own, exclusive, virus and the Lyme folks > have theirs - or whatever it is.. > > Mort Caldwell > CFS since 1994. Presently at 30% functionality - physically. Maybe about > 50% mental... enough to know Lyme from CFS.. > > ---------- > From: Steve [sMTP:moores@...] > Reply egroups > Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2000 8:20 PM > egroups > Subject: Re: Lyme Test > > I am an expert on the general issue of measurement and research methods. In > the social sciences we have to be extreme vigilant on the issue of > measurement and we never assume we are measuring what > we say we are just because we believe we have a good measure. In the > biological sciences people assume they are measuring what they say they are > and do not address question the convergence and > discrimination of measures. Two measures that measure the same thing should > converge. Two measures that measure different things should discriminate. > If the LUAT test cannot discriminate between > Lyme & CFS then either Lyme & CFS are the same thing or the LUAT test is > unreliable (and perhaps invalid). I have not particular opinion as to which > scenario is true. What is your opinion -- you > seem very vested in this issue Al -- so please help me out. > Steve > PS if you think Lyme and CFS are the same thing please let me know where I > can get tested. I am not closed minded about this issue -- I don't really > know what CFS is do you -- I'll nominate you for > the nobel prize. > > Al Melillo wrote: > > > Steve, you avoided the question. You were asked what are your > > qualifications? Instead you answered with your own philosophy that is > > unproven and speculative. You don't want to admit you are not expert on > > this! I admitted I am not qualified to speculate why are you or > > qualified? > > Al > > Re: Lyme Test > > > > > Just basic knowledge of statistic. If 100 - 80% of CFSers are positive > for > > lyme then either cfs & lyme are the same thing or one of the two does not > > exist (or there is unreliability in the measure) > > > this would be true if we were talking pyschology. sociology, or biology > -- > > it is basic measurement theory. You don't have to be a Ph.D. to know this > -- > > but it dosn't hurt. Please do not get make I > > > talking about a basic fact of measurement error . I not making a > statement > > about you personally. If you think I am wrong show me -- but don't attach > me > > attach my arguement. I didn't attach you I > > > attached your argument -- which seems to be a weak one my the way. When > > you are being feed garbage a little critical thinking goes along way. > > > Steve > > > > > > Al Melillo wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Steve, > > > > Neither of us are qualified to speculate on if the test is accurate. > > What > > > > qualifies you ? I'd like to know? > > > > Al > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > GET WHO WANTS TO BE A MILLIONAIRE FREE! GET THE OFFICIAL COMPANION > > TO TELEVISION'S HOTTEST GAME SHOW PHENOMENON PLUS 5 MORE BOOKS FOR > > $2. Click for details. > > 1/3014/2/_/531724/_/956265719/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with > each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any > treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Enjoy the award-winning journalism of The New York Times with > convenient home delivery. And for a limited time, get 50% off for the > first 8 weeks by subscribing. Pay by credit card and receive an > additional 4 weeks at this low introductory rate. > 1/3102/2/_/531724/_/956276554/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each > other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment > discussed here, please consult your doctor. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Your high school sweetheart-where is he now? With 4.4 million alumni > already registered at Classmates.com, there's a good chance you'll > find her here. Visit your online high school class reunion at: > 1/3139/2/_/531724/_/956314019/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. 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Guest guest Posted April 26, 2000 Report Share Posted April 26, 2000 Al These were the positive bands: B. Burgdorferi AB IGM,WB 66 kDa Band B. Burgdorferi AB IGG, WB B. Burgdorferi 66 KD IGG B.Burgdorferi 41 KD IGG B.Burgdorferi 28 KD IGG Any insight on this is appreciated. It's all Greek to me! Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2000 Report Share Posted April 26, 2000 Phil-go check out www.guidelines.lymenet.org/ you will find Dr.Burrscannos' recommendations: the 66 kda band is not specific and highly cross-reactive, the 28 band is also not specific and the 41 band is cross-reactive----check out the igenex website also.....they will give you a wealth of information on how to interpret the western blot-this is not considered a positive test for b. burgdorferi.... Re: Lyme Test > Al > > These were the positive bands: > B. Burgdorferi AB IGM,WB 66 kDa Band > > B. Burgdorferi AB IGG, WB B. Burgdorferi 66 KD IGG > B.Burgdorferi 41 KD IGG > B.Burgdorferi 28 KD IGG > > Any insight on this is appreciated. It's all Greek to me! > > Phil > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > High rates giving you headaches? The 0% APR Introductory Rate from > Capital One. 9.9% Fixed thereafter! > 1/3010/2/_/531724/_/956753688/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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