Re: Moulden-Cutler Controversy

[Guest guest]

>So everybody, I know we are all mad as hell and aren't going to take

>it anymore, as Faye Dunaway said in the 70's movie Network, but let's

>not beat each other up.

Faye Dunaway actually never uttered the words. It was Finch.

Good flick, BTW.

My point it, as mad as anyone is, getting the facts absolutely right

is the most important thing. Ever.

--

Ralph Nader on the need for moral courage:

[Guest guest]

, as we all know, the " facts " are never black and white or

clear in the world of autism.

I am not saying I am a fan of Moulden, don't know anything about the

man beyond his post. I am just saying that just because the manner of

delivery is offensive (and his post was, in my estimation, a bit

pompous, and his dismissal or denigration of Andy's chelation protocol

as somehow ancillary, off putting) and the motives and qualifications

of the messenger may be suspect, you cannot discount the essential

truth of what the man is saying. The whole stroke theory somehow

resonates with all of us, and what we observed with our babies first

hand. Whether you buy into the rest of what he says, is another matter.

I am sure at the time Andy first conceived his chelation protocol, the

protocol itself and Andy and his qualifications and motives came under

attack. These critics, as I am sure there were and still are, now

cannot deny the undeniable vast knowledge and intelligence of the man,

and we here using his protocol, and all of those out there with

recovered kids, can attest to the efficacy of same. I am the most

suspicious and skeptical person out there, always questioning, I drive

my husband crazy with this. I agree you can't jump on the next great

thing purportedly out there in the realm of autism interventions, but

you have to allow for other ways of thinking. Just as I said in my

letter to our Governor in support of vaccine choice, I say here,

reasonable minds can differ. I tend to agree with Andy myself. But

just because someone does not agree with you, you cannot immediately

jump down their throats. We then take the risk of being just as bad

as Big Pharma, the CDC, the AMA, AAP et al, about whom we all complain

here.

Just my 2 cents, for what its worth. Irene

[Guest guest]

He _had_ a chance: his open letter to Andy.

To put it bluntly, and to possibly come off as a snob, the majority

of parents ( " under-educated " or not) simply aren't qualified to make

the determination as to whether X is a good idea or a bad one. You

seem to be advocating listening to _anyone_ selling snake oil from

the back of horse-drawn carts. These people can _sound_ very

convincing, but if the science isn't there, it isn't going to appear

mysteriously later. We all rely on opinion and interpretation because

no one here (except Andy perhaps) has the tools to do their own

assessment of proposed facts. Once you find a good " interpreter " , you

stick with them.

I am not threatened. I have just developed a very good BS detector,

and number one on that list is how fast a person talks and how much

they talk about themselves. They promote their qualifications and

knowledge in unquantifiable, unverifiable terms, trying to impress.

Speaking in grandiose, meaningless phrases ( " I never take a stand

unless I am confident I have the truth and we will win - in any

truism or sport " ) and using winkie-smileys really doesn't help

either. It's all political rhetoric learnt to promote a personality

cult.

And no, I don't believe _everyone_ should be given a forum. Call me

elitist, but devastating historical atrocities could have been

avoided if common sense had been used. There are many " compelling

arguments " in how the " superiority of the Aryan race " was presented

to Germans in the 1930s. The principal manner in which this was

propagated was through small town meetings, to which people invited

others, saying " just listen, what can you lose? " . The mindset

(desperate financial times) were quite parallel to those in this

group (desperate medical family tragedies) and promote an irrational

willingness to listen to anything, to grasp at straws.

My experience of this group is that it is very CHALLENGING, not

negative, when new ideas are brought up. It's as it should be. In

science, you are guilty until proven innocent.

PS. I'm going away now, having had, like Andy, my dose of frustration

for the week. Not that you should care about my emotional state. You

might, however, wonder if one of these days Andy might decide that

helping us simply is not worth it, given he is forced to share the

podium with some of the drivel that filters in off the streets.

PPS. Bumper-sticker talk doesn't help. Parachutes also have to be

properly designed. Being open is just the beginning of the thought

process. Some parachutes will fail when opened, for a number of

reasons, having holes in them being just one...

>I agree. What I dont agree with is the shutting down ...doors closed and

>not letting this guy have a chance to speak without getting attacked. Some of

>us " under-educated " parents would have liked to ask him questions

>etc. But the

>atmosphere here is always so negative when some new idea is brought up.

>The " more educated " but might I add ..that doesnt make one

>smarter.. get defensive

>right off the bat. Would it really have hurt to listen to what this

>man has to say

>and maybe we could get a better understanding? Does this man seem

>threatening to you?

>I do believe he responded to Andy's post in a " lets work together attitude "

>If I were him, I would not bother to come back and post answers to questions..

>this group is like a den of lions for Gosh sakes. Minds are like

>parachutes..they only

>function when open.

>

>

>

>

> 38 and Mom to three

>Tasha 23..new Mommy ( means I am a Grammy )

>Casey-Mae 13..sweet as pie

>Elijah 2.. ASD and beautiful

>

> Re: [ ] Moulden-Cutler Controversy

>

>>So everybody, I know we are all mad as hell and aren't going to take

>>it anymore, as Faye Dunaway said in the 70's movie Network, but let's

> >not beat each other up.

>

>Faye Dunaway actually never uttered the words. It was Finch.

>Good flick, BTW.

>

>My point it, as mad as anyone is, getting the facts absolutely right

>is the most important thing. Ever.

>

>--

>Ralph Nader on the need for moral courage:

><http://www.youtube.>http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=MQFG4Piwegs

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

He _had_ a chance: his open letter to Andy.

To put it bluntly, and to possibly come off as a snob, the majority

of parents ( " under-educated " or not) simply aren't qualified to make

the determination as to whether X is a good idea or a bad one. You

seem to be advocating listening to _anyone_ selling snake oil from

the back of horse-drawn carts. These people can _sound_ very

convincing, but if the science isn't there, it isn't going to appear

mysteriously later. We all rely on opinion and interpretation because

no one here (except Andy perhaps) has the tools to do their own

assessment of proposed facts. Once you find a good " interpreter " , you

stick with them.

I am not threatened. I have just developed a very good BS detector,

and number one on that list is how fast a person talks and how much

they talk about themselves. They promote their qualifications and

knowledge in unquantifiable, unverifiable terms, trying to impress.

Speaking in grandiose, meaningless phrases ( " I never take a stand

unless I am confident I have the truth and we will win - in any

truism or sport " ) and using winkie-smileys really doesn't help

either. It's all political rhetoric learnt to promote a personality

cult.

And no, I don't believe _everyone_ should be given a forum. Call me

elitist, but devastating historical atrocities could have been

avoided if common sense had been used. There are many " compelling

arguments " in how the " superiority of the Aryan race " was presented

to Germans in the 1930s. The principal manner in which this was

propagated was through small town meetings, to which people invited

others, saying " just listen, what can you lose? " . The mindset

(desperate financial times) were quite parallel to those in this

group (desperate medical family tragedies) and promote an irrational

willingness to listen to anything, to grasp at straws.

My experience of this group is that it is very CHALLENGING, not

negative, when new ideas are brought up. It's as it should be. In

science, you are guilty until proven innocent.

PS. I'm going away now, having had, like Andy, my dose of frustration

for the week. Not that you should care about my emotional state. You

might, however, wonder if one of these days Andy might decide that

helping us simply is not worth it, given he is forced to share the

podium with some of the drivel that filters in off the streets.

PPS. Bumper-sticker talk doesn't help. Parachutes also have to be

properly designed. Being open is just the beginning of the thought

process. Some parachutes will fail when opened, for a number of

reasons, having holes in them being just one...

>I agree. What I dont agree with is the shutting down ...doors closed and

>not letting this guy have a chance to speak without getting attacked. Some of

>us " under-educated " parents would have liked to ask him questions

>etc. But the

>atmosphere here is always so negative when some new idea is brought up.

>The " more educated " but might I add ..that doesnt make one

>smarter.. get defensive

>right off the bat. Would it really have hurt to listen to what this

>man has to say

>and maybe we could get a better understanding? Does this man seem

>threatening to you?

>I do believe he responded to Andy's post in a " lets work together attitude "

>If I were him, I would not bother to come back and post answers to questions..

>this group is like a den of lions for Gosh sakes. Minds are like

>parachutes..they only

>function when open.

>

>

>

>

> 38 and Mom to three

>Tasha 23..new Mommy ( means I am a Grammy )

>Casey-Mae 13..sweet as pie

>Elijah 2.. ASD and beautiful

>

> Re: [ ] Moulden-Cutler Controversy

>

>>So everybody, I know we are all mad as hell and aren't going to take

>>it anymore, as Faye Dunaway said in the 70's movie Network, but let's

> >not beat each other up.

>

>Faye Dunaway actually never uttered the words. It was Finch.

>Good flick, BTW.

>

>My point it, as mad as anyone is, getting the facts absolutely right

>is the most important thing. Ever.

>

>--

>Ralph Nader on the need for moral courage:

><http://www.youtube.>http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=MQFG4Piwegs

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

He _had_ a chance: his open letter to Andy.

To put it bluntly, and to possibly come off as a snob, the majority

of parents ( " under-educated " or not) simply aren't qualified to make

the determination as to whether X is a good idea or a bad one. You

seem to be advocating listening to _anyone_ selling snake oil from

the back of horse-drawn carts. These people can _sound_ very

convincing, but if the science isn't there, it isn't going to appear

mysteriously later. We all rely on opinion and interpretation because

no one here (except Andy perhaps) has the tools to do their own

assessment of proposed facts. Once you find a good " interpreter " , you

stick with them.

I am not threatened. I have just developed a very good BS detector,

and number one on that list is how fast a person talks and how much

they talk about themselves. They promote their qualifications and

knowledge in unquantifiable, unverifiable terms, trying to impress.

Speaking in grandiose, meaningless phrases ( " I never take a stand

unless I am confident I have the truth and we will win - in any

truism or sport " ) and using winkie-smileys really doesn't help

either. It's all political rhetoric learnt to promote a personality

cult.

And no, I don't believe _everyone_ should be given a forum. Call me

elitist, but devastating historical atrocities could have been

avoided if common sense had been used. There are many " compelling

arguments " in how the " superiority of the Aryan race " was presented

to Germans in the 1930s. The principal manner in which this was

propagated was through small town meetings, to which people invited

others, saying " just listen, what can you lose? " . The mindset

(desperate financial times) were quite parallel to those in this

group (desperate medical family tragedies) and promote an irrational

willingness to listen to anything, to grasp at straws.

My experience of this group is that it is very CHALLENGING, not

negative, when new ideas are brought up. It's as it should be. In

science, you are guilty until proven innocent.

PS. I'm going away now, having had, like Andy, my dose of frustration

for the week. Not that you should care about my emotional state. You

might, however, wonder if one of these days Andy might decide that

helping us simply is not worth it, given he is forced to share the

podium with some of the drivel that filters in off the streets.

PPS. Bumper-sticker talk doesn't help. Parachutes also have to be

properly designed. Being open is just the beginning of the thought

process. Some parachutes will fail when opened, for a number of

reasons, having holes in them being just one...

>I agree. What I dont agree with is the shutting down ...doors closed and

>not letting this guy have a chance to speak without getting attacked. Some of

>us " under-educated " parents would have liked to ask him questions

>etc. But the

>atmosphere here is always so negative when some new idea is brought up.

>The " more educated " but might I add ..that doesnt make one

>smarter.. get defensive

>right off the bat. Would it really have hurt to listen to what this

>man has to say

>and maybe we could get a better understanding? Does this man seem

>threatening to you?

>I do believe he responded to Andy's post in a " lets work together attitude "

>If I were him, I would not bother to come back and post answers to questions..

>this group is like a den of lions for Gosh sakes. Minds are like

>parachutes..they only

>function when open.

>

>

>

--

Ralph Nader on the need for moral courage:

[Guest guest]

I happen to like bumper stickers : )~~~ and yes smiley faces.

 38 and Mom to three

Tasha 23..new Mommy ( means I am a Grammy )

Casey-Mae 13..sweet as pie

Elijah 2.. ASD and beautiful

Re: [ ] Moulden-Cutler Controversy

He _had_ a chance: his open letter to Andy.

To put it bluntly, and to possibly come off as a snob, the majority

of parents ( " under-educated " or not) simply aren't qualified to make

the determination as to whether X is a good idea or a bad one. You

seem to be advocating listening to _anyone_ selling snake oil from

the back of horse-drawn carts. These people can _sound_ very

convincing, but if the science isn't there, it isn't going to appear

mysteriously later. We all rely on opinion and interpretation because

no one here (except Andy perhaps) has the tools to do their own

assessment of proposed facts. Once you find a good " interpreter " , you

stick with them..

I am not threatened. I have just developed a very good BS detector,

and number one on that list is how fast a person talks and how much

they talk about themselves. They promote their qualifications and

knowledge in unquantifiable, unverifiable terms, trying to impress.

Speaking in grandiose, meaningless phrases ( " I never take a stand

unless I am confident I have the truth and we will win - in any

truism or sport " ) and using winkie-smileys really doesn't help

either. It's all political rhetoric learnt to promote a personality

cult.

And no, I don't believe _everyone_ should be given a forum. Call me

elitist, but devastating historical atrocities could have been

avoided if common sense had been used. There are many " compelling

arguments " in how the " superiority of the Aryan race " was presented

to Germans in the 1930s. The principal manner in which this was

propagated was through small town meetings, to which people invited

others, saying " just listen, what can you lose? " . The mindset

(desperate financial times) were quite parallel to those in this

group (desperate medical family tragedies) and promote an irrational

willingness to listen to anything, to grasp at straws.

My experience of this group is that it is very CHALLENGING, not

negative, when new ideas are brought up. It's as it should be. In

science, you are guilty until proven innocent.

PS. I'm going away now, having had, like Andy, my dose of frustration

for the week. Not that you should care about my emotional state. You

might, however, wonder if one of these days Andy might decide that

helping us simply is not worth it, given he is forced to share the

podium with some of the drivel that filters in off the streets.

PPS. Bumper-sticker talk doesn't help. Parachutes also have to be

properly designed. Being open is just the beginning of the thought

process. Some parachutes will fail when opened, for a number of

reasons, having holes in them being just one...

>I agree. What I dont agree with is the shutting down ...doors closed and

>not letting this guy have a chance to speak without getting attacked. Some of

>us " under-educated " parents would have liked to ask him questions

>etc. But the

>atmosphere here is always so negative when some new idea is brought up.

>The " more educated " but might I add ..that doesnt make one

>smarter.. get defensive

>right off the bat. Would it really have hurt to listen to what this

>man has to say

>and maybe we could get a better understanding? Does this man seem

>threatening to you?

>I do believe he responded to Andy's post in a " lets work together attitude "

>If I were him, I would not bother to come back and post answers to questions..

>this group is like a den of lions for Gosh sakes. Minds are like

>parachutes. .they only

>function when open.

>

>

>

--

Ralph Nader on the need for moral courage:

http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=MQFG4Piwegs

[Guest guest]

My son is mercury toxic and not vaccine damaged. He was severely ASD

before he was 1 and has never been vaccinated. He and I (and now

even my husband too -- understand this is contagious) have since been

diagnosed with Lyme and a whole slew of other bacterial infecitons.

Many experts in the area of infections feel that pathogens are

responsible for most that ail us: autoimmune disease, cancer, heart

disease, stroke, brain disorders from alzheimers, autism, depression,

pretty much you name it. Who ever came up with the " autoimmune

disease " theory that your immune system thinks you have an infection,

but the dr knows better b/c they cannot find one, therefore your

immune system must be mistaken? AND WE BELIEVED IT!!!! If your

immune system is triggering inflammation, there is a pathogen there.

I believe that heavy metal toxicity, yeast, inflammation, mental

disorders usually begin as a result of infection. Can you get one of

these in isolation, probably, but usually the root cause is further

upstream -- pathogens and the immune system responding. Are treating

all of the " symptoms " necessary for healing? Probably a good idea.

Could it be that mercury is more of the causative of autism, while

mercury is a symptom of an infection? Possibly. I know most DAN type

believe that mercury causes autism and " gut bugs, " but DAN still

fails to acknowledge intracellular infection as the root causative.

Either way, most of our kids have metal toxicity and pathogens and

both need to be treated. I don't see a controversy. Just treat them

both.

Caryn

>

> , as we all know, the " facts " are never black and white or

> clear in the world of autism.

>

> I am not saying I am a fan of Moulden, don't know anything about the

> man beyond his post. I am just saying that just because the manner

of

> delivery is offensive (and his post was, in my estimation, a bit

> pompous, and his dismissal or denigration of Andy's chelation

protocol

> as somehow ancillary, off putting) and the motives and

qualifications

> of the messenger may be suspect, you cannot discount the essential

> truth of what the man is saying. The whole stroke theory somehow

> resonates with all of us, and what we observed with our babies first

> hand. Whether you buy into the rest of what he says, is another

matter.

>

> I am sure at the time Andy first conceived his chelation protocol,

the

> protocol itself and Andy and his qualifications and motives came

under

> attack. These critics, as I am sure there were and still are, now

> cannot deny the undeniable vast knowledge and intelligence of the

man,

> and we here using his protocol, and all of those out there with

> recovered kids, can attest to the efficacy of same. I am the most

> suspicious and skeptical person out there, always questioning, I

drive

> my husband crazy with this. I agree you can't jump on the next

great

> thing purportedly out there in the realm of autism interventions,

but

> you have to allow for other ways of thinking. Just as I said in my

> letter to our Governor in support of vaccine choice, I say here,

> reasonable minds can differ. I tend to agree with Andy myself. But

> just because someone does not agree with you, you cannot immediately

> jump down their throats. We then take the risk of being just as bad

> as Big Pharma, the CDC, the AMA, AAP et al, about whom we all

complain

> here.

>

> Just my 2 cents, for what its worth. Irene

>

[Guest guest]

I am all for lively debate, and yes anyone purporting to have something

" miraculous " to

help our kids better darn well be willing to have their " feet held to the fire "

as says. I

am an attorney by training, and agree with dissecting whatever is presented, but

I also like

to look at both sides of the issue. Debate is healthy, and yes, we are all here

to learn and

educate ourselves and to protect ourselves if you will from trying interventions

with our

kids that may harm them.

To the scientific folks here, I say thanks for your help and info provided for

those of us

without particular scientific training. However, this need not be the " lion's

den " - that is a

ridiculous notion, again, I reiterate, reasonable minds can differ, and if you

feel strongly

that another way is perhaps not only unreasonable, but downright dangerous, then

by all

means we want to hear from you. However, all I am saying is that you need not

be rude.

A little cordiality and common civility does not mean you are weak, or

conciliatory or

pandering to the other side. It just means you are being a decent human being.

Andy was

very reasonable in his response to Moulden, Andy appears to reserve his sarcasm

only for

those times where he feels no other way will get the person's attention to not

do

something harmful to their kid. I respect him greatly for admitting that he does

not always

have all the answers, and that sometimes another way works (eg, sometimes people

diverge from something in his protocol and still have success)

I won't keep posting on this and belaboring the point. I just resented the

implication that

I was somehow afraid of spirited debate and was chastising people for

criticizing Moulden.

By all means, argue, exchange ideas, criticize, but don't act like this is the

compound, and

Andy is Koresh, and no one is allowed to disagree. The point of this

group is that we

are all on the same page here, that is to discuss and use Andy's approach, I

understand

that, but we need to have some perspective about things, that periodically some

new

approaches will come along, which need to be discussed and reviewed, and not let

the

rancor get out of hand.

Irene

[Guest guest]

I think arguing about issues is healthy and productive. That's what I

like about this list.

In general, as a part of modern life, with political correctness, etc, a

lot of people are so concerned about how they are perceived by everyone

else, that they self-censor to such a degree that they almost have no

opinion on anything. This is not healthy, as it just bottles things up

and issues don't get addressed.

Similarly, some people are too quick to anger when they are met with

opposition, and they throw in the " i'm hurt, you horrible bully " card.

People can actually argue about issues without necessarily being angry

or having any hatred of each other.

I am happy to listen to what Dr Maulden has to say. I am impressed that

he has stated he wants to work with Andy. I hope he contacts the people

at SABRI like Austin, like I suggested.

But if Dr Maulden is going to make such bold claims, he has to be

prepared for some people that want to hold his feet to the fire. And if

he is convinced that he is correct, then not only should he be happy to

stand his ground, he should welcome the challenge and the debate.

Dr Maulden is a big boy now, and I get the impression he is passionate

and truly believes in what he is claiming. So I don't think he's going

to run away with his tail between his legs, just because he is challenged.

So I like this " den of lions " very much. It reminds me that we are NOT

all like sheep.

I like the idea of working together, but this does not mean everyone has

to automatically agree, and if we did that, we would end up with " group

think " and our decisions would be all the poorer for it.

I also agree people need to have open minds, but again this does not

mean that to have an open mind you need to accept everything new at face

value, and it does not mean debate and argument is not permitted.

Think of debate, argument and opposition NOT as personal attacks or

closed minds on the defensive, but rather as a form of quality control.

Largey wrote:

>

> I agree. What I dont agree with is the shutting down ...doors closed and

> not letting this guy have a chance to speak without getting attacked.

> Some of

> us " under-educated " parents would have liked to ask him questions

> etc. But the

> atmosphere here is always so negative when some new idea is brought up.

> The " more educated " but might I add ..that doesnt make one smarter..

> get defensive

> right off the bat. Would it really have hurt to listen to what this

> man has to say

> and maybe we could get a better understanding? Does this man seem

> threatening to you?

> I do believe he responded to Andy's post in a " lets work together

> attitude "

> If I were him, I would not bother to come back and post answers to

> questions..

> this group is like a den of lions for Gosh sakes. Minds are like

> parachutes..they only

> function when open.

>

>

>

>

> 38 and Mom to three

> Tasha 23..new Mommy ( means I am a Grammy )

> Casey-Mae 13..sweet as pie

> Elijah 2.. ASD and beautiful

>

> Re: [ ] Moulden-Cutler Controversy

>

> >So everybody, I know we are all mad as hell and aren't going to take

> >it anymore, as Faye Dunaway said in the 70's movie Network, but let's

> >not beat each other up.

>

> Faye Dunaway actually never uttered the words. It was Finch.

> Good flick, BTW.

>

> My point it, as mad as anyone is, getting the facts absolutely right

> is the most important thing. Ever.

>

> --

> Ralph Nader on the need for moral courage:

> http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=MQFG4Piwegs

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I for the record have five special needs children and only the first

was vaccinated. I believe that they all probably got heavy doses of

mercury from my mercury fillings and the fact that the past 3

generations of our families are just as toxic as toxic can be.

[Guest guest]

Man, somehow I missed the original firestorm on the topic in this thread. Just

what was Dr Moulden's theory? Where is the original post? I pretty much want

to see what has driven so many to instant freak out! That is one of the things I

love about this board but boy have I learned the hard way not to post a

differing opinion on anything - I like to read them but too scared to post em!

I am a coward at heart.

Chris

-----

From: Reynolds

Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 7:59 PM

Subject: Re: [ ] Moulden-Cutler Controversy

I think arguing about issues is healthy and productive. That's what I

like about this list.

In general, as a part of modern life, with political correctness, etc, a

lot of people are so concerned about how they are perceived by everyone

else, that they self-censor to such a degree that they almost have no

opinion on anything. This is not healthy, as it just bottles things up

and issues don't get addressed.

Similarly, some people are too quick to anger when they are met with

opposition, and they throw in the " i'm hurt, you horrible bully " card.

People can actually argue about issues without necessarily being angry

or having any hatred of each other.

I am happy to listen to what Dr Maulden has to say. I am impressed that

he has stated he wants to work with Andy. I hope he contacts the people

at SABRI like Austin, like I suggested.

But if Dr Maulden is going to make such bold claims, he has to be

prepared for some people that want to hold his feet to the fire. And if

he is convinced that he is correct, then not only should he be happy to

stand his ground, he should welcome the challenge and the debate.

Dr Maulden is a big boy now, and I get the impression he is passionate

and truly believes in what he is claiming. So I don't think he's going

to run away with his tail between his legs, just because he is challenged.

So I like this " den of lions " very much. It reminds me that we are NOT

all like sheep.

I like the idea of working together, but this does not mean everyone has

to automatically agree, and if we did that, we would end up with " group

think " and our decisions would be all the poorer for it.

I also agree people need to have open minds, but again this does not

mean that to have an open mind you need to accept everything new at face

value, and it does not mean debate and argument is not permitted.

Think of debate, argument and opposition NOT as personal attacks or

closed minds on the defensive, but rather as a form of quality control.

Largey wrote:

>

> I agree. What I dont agree with is the shutting down ...doors closed and

> not letting this guy have a chance to speak without getting attacked.

> Some of

> us " under-educated " parents would have liked to ask him questions

> etc. But the

> atmosphere here is always so negative when some new idea is brought up.

> The " more educated " but might I add ..that doesnt make one smarter..

> get defensive

> right off the bat. Would it really have hurt to listen to what this

> man has to say

> and maybe we could get a better understanding? Does this man seem

> threatening to you?

> I do believe he responded to Andy's post in a " lets work together

> attitude "

> If I were him, I would not bother to come back and post answers to

> questions..

> this group is like a den of lions for Gosh sakes. Minds are like

> parachutes..they only

> function when open.

>

>

>

>

> 38 and Mom to three

> Tasha 23..new Mommy ( means I am a Grammy )

> Casey-Mae 13..sweet as pie

> Elijah 2.. ASD and beautiful

>

> Re: [ ] Moulden-Cutler Controversy

>

> >So everybody, I know we are all mad as hell and aren't going to take

> >it anymore, as Faye Dunaway said in the 70's movie Network, but let's

> >not beat each other up.

>

> Faye Dunaway actually never uttered the words. It was Finch.

> Good flick, BTW.

>

> My point it, as mad as anyone is, getting the facts absolutely right

> is the most important thing. Ever.

>

> --

> Ralph Nader on the need for moral courage:

> http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=MQFG4Piwegs

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I just (now) read way too many posts, to try to find the " crux " of all

the posting on this topic - haven't kept up too much here lately

myself...the posts look to be mainly in the 238400 range - I started

with post #238300 & went from there...this is surely a busy busy

place..wishing you the best answers, elizabeth

>

> Man, somehow I missed the original firestorm on the topic in this

thread. Just what was Dr Moulden's theory? Where is the original

post? I pretty much want to see what has driven so many to instant

freak out! That is one of the things I love about this board but boy

have I learned the hard way not to post a differing opinion on

anything - I like to read them but too scared to post em! I am a

coward at heart.

>

> Chris

[Guest guest]

:

Are any of your children recovered?

>

> I for the record have five special needs children and only the first

> was vaccinated. I believe that they all probably got heavy doses of

> mercury from my mercury fillings and the fact that the past 3

> generations of our families are just as toxic as toxic can be.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, my oldest child is recovered!

He is the only one we have chelated so far.

Some of us have adrenal problems, and I have been unable to chelate my daughter

with uveitis when she had gastritis.

[Guest guest]

I agree with and , many a good doctor has come to this list

to learn as well as share their knowledge. I appreciate that, and I

don't understand the bullying of this man any more than I understand

the loyalty to Kirkman vitamins. It just doesn't make sense.

Those of you bullying should spend more time observing and you will

actually learn something rather than drive away someone with unique

knowledge. We ALL have unique knowledge that may be valuable to

someone at some point. Have a little respect.

I just told people on another list that was my

favorite because you could burp, fart, and throw up over here and no

one would take it personally, has it changed all of a sudden?

> >

> > I agree. What I dont agree with is the shutting down ...doors

closed and

> > not letting this guy have a chance to speak without getting

attacked.

> > Some of

> > us " under-educated " parents would have liked to ask him

questions

> > etc. But the

> > atmosphere here is always so negative when some new idea is

brought up.

> > The " more educated " but might I add ..that doesnt make one

smarter..

> > get defensive

> > right off the bat. Would it really have hurt to listen to what

this

> > man has to say

> > and maybe we could get a better understanding? Does this man seem

> > threatening to you?

> > I do believe he responded to Andy's post in a " lets work

together

> > attitude "

> > If I were him, I would not bother to come back and post answers

to

> > questions..

> > this group is like a den of lions for Gosh sakes. Minds are like

> > parachutes..they only

> > function when open.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > 38 and Mom to three

> > Tasha 23..new Mommy ( means I am a Grammy )

> > Casey-Mae 13..sweet as pie

> > Elijah 2.. ASD and beautiful

> >

> > Re: [ ] Moulden-Cutler Controversy

> >

> > >So everybody, I know we are all mad as hell and aren't going to

take

> > >it anymore, as Faye Dunaway said in the 70's movie Network, but

let's

> > >not beat each other up.

> >

> > Faye Dunaway actually never uttered the words. It was Finch.

> > Good flick, BTW.

> >

> > My point it, as mad as anyone is, getting the facts absolutely

right

> > is the most important thing. Ever.

> >

> > --

> > Ralph Nader on the need for moral courage:

> > http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=MQFG4Piwegs

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

-The only problem I am having with this is when someone says they are

not profiting from this but never once give out advice other than " fix

the liver " . I get a bit leery. Why not give some examples of things

he uses? Why all of the secrets regarding treatment?

I was completely trusting at first. I even made him a group. He

okay'd it and thanked me for it. But instead of joining the group I

made he's back in this group posting. People have joined the group I

made up and want to ask questions, but Dr. Moulden hasn't joined. I

made the group up over 24 hours ago. I am deleting it now and moving

on. I have a child who needs help, we all do.

-- In , " "

<elizabethsoliday@...> wrote:

>

> I agree with and , many a good doctor has come to this list

> to learn as well as share their knowledge. I appreciate that, and I

> don't understand the bullying of this man any more than I understand

> the loyalty to Kirkman vitamins. It just doesn't make sense.

>

> Those of you bullying should spend more time observing and you will

> actually learn something rather than drive away someone with unique

> knowledge. We ALL have unique knowledge that may be valuable to

> someone at some point. Have a little respect.

>

> I just told people on another list that was my

> favorite because you could burp, fart, and throw up over here and no

> one would take it personally, has it changed all of a sudden?

>

>

>

> > >

> > > I agree. What I dont agree with is the shutting down ...doors

> closed and

> > > not letting this guy have a chance to speak without getting

> attacked.

> > > Some of

> > > us " under-educated " parents would have liked to ask him

> questions

> > > etc. But the

> > > atmosphere here is always so negative when some new idea is

> brought up.

> > > The " more educated " but might I add ..that doesnt make one

> smarter..

> > > get defensive

> > > right off the bat. Would it really have hurt to listen to what

> this

> > > man has to say

> > > and maybe we could get a better understanding? Does this man seem

> > > threatening to you?

> > > I do believe he responded to Andy's post in a " lets work

> together

> > > attitude "

> > > If I were him, I would not bother to come back and post answers

> to

> > > questions..

> > > this group is like a den of lions for Gosh sakes. Minds are like

> > > parachutes..they only

> > > function when open.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > 38 and Mom to three

> > > Tasha 23..new Mommy ( means I am a Grammy )

> > > Casey-Mae 13..sweet as pie

> > > Elijah 2.. ASD and beautiful

> > >

> > > Re: [ ] Moulden-Cutler Controversy

> > >

> > > >So everybody, I know we are all mad as hell and aren't going to

> take

> > > >it anymore, as Faye Dunaway said in the 70's movie Network, but

> let's

> > > >not beat each other up.

> > >

> > > Faye Dunaway actually never uttered the words. It was Finch.

> > > Good flick, BTW.

> > >

> > > My point it, as mad as anyone is, getting the facts absolutely

> right

> > > is the most important thing. Ever.

> > >

> > > --

> > > Ralph Nader on the need for moral courage:

> > > http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=MQFG4Piwegs

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Dr. Moulden's introductory post is here.

( /message/238571)

Here is a link to the radio program Best first posted

( /message/238489)

and this is the innocent post that started it all.

( /message/238298)

Because I do listen to Dr. Carley's radio show, I had also heard Dr.

Moulden's info " way back when " but unfortunately Best, Jr. gets

the credit to bringing it to this group.

best,

Liora

[Guest guest]

It's called 'flaming' and perpetrated by those who have an interest in

bullying the poster into withdrawing from the list.

schrieb:

>

> I agree with and , many a good doctor has come to this list

> to learn as well as share their knowledge. I appreciate that, and I

> don't understand the bullying of this man any more than I understand

> the loyalty to Kirkman vitamins. It just doesn't make sense.

>

> Those of you bullying should spend more time observing and you will

> actually learn something rather than drive away someone with unique

> knowledge. We ALL have unique knowledge that may be valuable to

> someone at some point. Have a little respect.

>

> I just told people on another list that was my

> favorite because you could burp, fart, and throw up over here and no

> one would take it personally, has it changed all of a sudden?

>

>

> > >

> > > I agree. What I dont agree with is the shutting down ...doors

> closed and

> > > not letting this guy have a chance to speak without getting

> attacked.

> > > Some of

> > > us " under-educated " parents would have liked to ask him

> questions

> > > etc. But the

> > > atmosphere here is always so negative when some new idea is

> brought up.

> > > The " more educated " but might I add ..that doesnt make one

> smarter..

> > > get defensive

> > > right off the bat. Would it really have hurt to listen to what

> this

> > > man has to say

> > > and maybe we could get a better understanding? Does this man seem

> > > threatening to you?

> > > I do believe he responded to Andy's post in a " lets work

> together

> > > attitude "

> > > If I were him, I would not bother to come back and post answers

> to

> > > questions..

> > > this group is like a den of lions for Gosh sakes. Minds are like

> > > parachutes.. they only

> > > function when open.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > 38 and Mom to three

> > > Tasha 23..new Mommy ( means I am a Grammy )

> > > Casey-Mae 13..sweet as pie

> > > Elijah 2.. ASD and beautiful

> > >

> > > Re: [ ] Moulden-Cutler Controversy

> > >

> > > >So everybody, I know we are all mad as hell and aren't going to

> take

> > > >it anymore, as Faye Dunaway said in the 70's movie Network, but

> let's

> > > >not beat each other up.

> > >

> > > Faye Dunaway actually never uttered the words. It was Finch.

> > > Good flick, BTW.

> > >

> > > My point it, as mad as anyone is, getting the facts absolutely

> right

> > > is the most important thing. Ever.

> > >

> > > --

> > > Ralph Nader on the need for moral courage:

> > > http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=MQFG4Piwegs

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Thank-you and .

I am here to answer what I can, learn what yu all an teach me, and

share whatever I might.... like this ;-0

From: " Barbara Loe Fisher - Founder NVIC - National Vaccine

information Centre

View contact details drmoulden@...

ah yes, the stars are lining up. I have more than a few books left in

me and it will be very interesting to explore a potential

collaboration. We appear to both be " quick studies " and sponges. My

mother was a nurse at Mayo clinic and once took care of Al Capone and

Helen Keller. My grandmother was a nurse, my grandfather a dentist

and I have uncles and aunts who are doctors, nurses, physical

therapists, hospital social workers. I worked after college in a

teaching hospital in community relations. I grew up talking science

and medicine. But I am limited by my lack of formal training -

everything I have learned has been from the " gut " using native

intelligence with a lot of hard work put in the mix. I supposed I am

what some call the classic " over achiever. " But so often it is

effortless, as if I am simply discovering what I have always known.

Is enlightenment a matter of the soul remembering (Plato was a

favorite) or, on a more material basis, could we have " DNA memory? "

That is, the ability to understand without being taught or see

without being shown is a matter of being able to learn or do what my

ancestors, whose DNA was passed down to me, were able to learn and

do. Cellular memory, if you will, that was a gift (or a burden) from

those who went before. I am not sure why my correspondence with you

is causing me to reach into places I have not visited for a while. It

is curious. I have more than a few books in me left and it will be

interesting to explore possibilities for a collaboration.

IXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX. It is what I want to do and need to do for the next

10 years. Then I can rest a little more peacefully at night. The

number on my cell phone is XXXXXXXXX from when you called me last

night. Is that your cell phone number? Call me at XXXXXXXXX (my

cell) when your plane lands and I will let you know if I am at the

airport or stuck in traffic. I expect it will be a smooth trip to

pick you up. I will drive up in front of the Air Canada arrivals. I

am blonde (now:) and will be driving a small silver C class mercedes.

barbara

In a message dated 1/14/2008 8:12:26 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

drmoulden@... writes:

timing is everything. If you only knew what I just finished writing

in the BrainGuardMd patent.. ;-) along with the biomechanics,

pathophysiological explanation (with images and tissue pathology

etc...) - it is all going to make sense to you soon enough Barbara.

As you were out battling these past few decades, learning through

intuition and self-tutelage I assume (I am thinking you would have

made an impressive physician-scientist), I was mastering the nuances

of the human brain - from a lifespan perspective x 20 formal years in

direct University studies... I have the words and medical explanation

for most of which you have asserted must be happening - SIDS, ADHD,

Autism, Aspergers, PDD-NOS, Specific Learning Disabilities, seizure

disorders, neurocognitive regression, Savant skills, aphasic

syndromes, sensory processing anomalies...attentional anomalies, and

a few others - all explainable, quite eloquently, based on :where the

action is at relative to the brain..and the liver of all things!

Surprisngly, the critical breakthrough we needed cam from

dermatology!.

We should discuss composing a book - one that brings " A shot in the

Dark " full-circle. This time, your observations and concerns will not

be able to be attacked by conjecture - you have a neurodevelopmental

brain " expert " to explain, medically, immunologically,

neurophsyiologically, hematolaogically, epidemiologically, along with

the wide variability in defcits including why some appear to re-gain

some functions, while others do not, and why some die.... I look

forward to adding to your pre-existing enlightenment Barb. I am

certain your mind will make sense of it quickly. If we do pen

a " conclusion " together, I will have to ensure the medical-legal

team has what they need from me first - they will have that in about

6 months. Looking fwd to your company, wisdom, words, experience, and

stories..I am sure there will not be enough time... I am a sponge. ;-

)

Barbar Loe Fisher Writes:

I totally agree with you. I remember when my book came out in 1985,

the first thing they tried to do was " prove " that DPT was not

implicated in " SIDS " - to which we replied " DPT causes death that is

misclassified as SIDS " and the second thing they tried to do

was " prove " that infantile spasms (with hypsarrythmia) was a type of

seizure/brain injury that was not caused by DPT. Infantile spasms are

probably the one particular kind of seizure that is absolutely DPT

induced but the outcome is so catastrophic (and expensive to treat)

that the medical community could not tolerate any association. I

remember at the time thinking " a rose by any other name would smell

as sweet " because it doesn't matter what you label it - brain damage

is still brain damage and the mechanism that caused it does not

discriminate in the brain. Clearly, there are many roads to brain and

immune dysfunction and different genes involved for different people

who suffer different kinds of outcomes. Biodiversity, encouraged by

nature to protect the survival/adaptation of the species, is ignored

by these arrogant vaccinologists and puffed up " public health "

zealots who have never met a vaccine they did not want to mandate for

everyone.

I am counting on the biological imperative, that primitive instinct

that lives inside of females (mothers), especially, to protect their

young so that their DNA will survive. Fathers have it, too, but males

theoretically and biologically have many opportunities to insure

their DNA will survive over a lifetime. Females have a much more

limited opportunity - confined to the babies they birth and

successfully nurture into to adulthood to be able to have their own

children. You cannot fool with the biological imperative of females

and expect to get away with it. You cannot convince parents that

their children are expendable for " the greater good " and get away

with it. Yes, there are many things to talk about tomorrow!

Barbara

In a message dated 1/14/2008 1:13:28 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

drmoulden@... writes:

Barbara... It is clear you have stood firm yourself, intuitively,

despite these sort of assaults. Everythjng and anything you say can

and will be twisted to fit " their " context. Irony... i genuinely

beileve I have some critical answers... makes sense of alot of this,

especially many SIDS.... they cannot argue something safe based on

epidemiology and observational stats, random sample stats when the

problem occurs in less than 100, and it is not a singular vaccine

that causes the problem for all - one vaccine harms one, another

vaccine harms another - in exactly the same way

(pathophysiologically)..but based on different vulnerabilities, that

albeit have a similar end path to death... We shall see who

apologises to who..down the road. Strokes of Luck. Strokes of

coincidnce. Strokes of genious (you). Strokes to the brain and the

body in the microvessell trees. Meddial legal (vaccine injury courts

submission by the fall) then to teh public, and rapidly to the

scientifc community...thenw e have a book to write (or two) to

educate all and what has happened, and what we must now do.

;-)

With respect

http://www.geocities.com/issues_in_immunization/fearmongers/barbara_lo

e_fisher.htm andrew

J. Moulden M.D., Ph.D.

> > > >

> > > > I agree. What I dont agree with is the shutting down ...doors

> > closed and

> > > > not letting this guy have a chance to speak without getting

> > attacked.

> > > > Some of

> > > > us " under-educated " parents would have liked to ask him

> > questions

> > > > etc. But the

> > > > atmosphere here is always so negative when some new idea is

> > brought up.

> > > > The " more educated " but might I add ..that doesnt make one

> > smarter..

> > > > get defensive

> > > > right off the bat. Would it really have hurt to listen to what

> > this

> > > > man has to say

> > > > and maybe we could get a better understanding? Does this man

seem

> > > > threatening to you?

> > > > I do believe he responded to Andy's post in a " lets work

> > together

> > > > attitude "

> > > > If I were him, I would not bother to come back and post

answers

> > to

> > > > questions..

> > > > this group is like a den of lions for Gosh sakes. Minds are

like

> > > > parachutes.. they only

> > > > function when open.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > 38 and Mom to three

> > > > Tasha 23..new Mommy ( means I am a Grammy )

> > > > Casey-Mae 13..sweet as pie

> > > > Elijah 2.. ASD and beautiful

> > > >

> > > > Re: [ ] Moulden-Cutler Controversy

> > > >

> > > > >So everybody, I know we are all mad as hell and aren't going

to

> > take

> > > > >it anymore, as Faye Dunaway said in the 70's movie Network,

but

> > let's

> > > > >not beat each other up.

> > > >

> > > > Faye Dunaway actually never uttered the words. It was

Finch.

> > > > Good flick, BTW.

> > > >

> > > > My point it, as mad as anyone is, getting the facts absolutely

> > right

> > > > is the most important thing. Ever.

> > > >

> > > > --

> > > > Ralph Nader on the need for moral courage:

> > > > http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=MQFG4Piwegs

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Re: [ ] Moulden-Cutler Controversy

> >

> > >So everybody, I know we are all mad as hell and aren't going to

take

> > >it anymore, as Faye Dunaway said in the 70's movie Network, but

let's

> > >not beat each other up.

> >

> > Faye Dunaway actually never uttered the words. It was Finch.

> > Good flick, BTW.

> >

> > My point it, as mad as anyone is, getting the facts absolutely

right

> > is the most important thing. Ever.

> >

> > --

> > Ralph Nader on the need for moral courage:

> > http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=MQFG4Piwegs

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

, What are his false and misleading statements?

Ladyshrink111@... schrieb:

>

>

> Re: [ ] Moulden-Cutler Controversy

> > >

> > > >So everybody, I know we are all mad as hell and aren't going to

> take

> > > >it anymore, as Faye Dunaway said in the 70's movie Network, but

> let's

> > > >not beat each other up.

> > >

> > > Faye Dunaway actually never uttered the words. It was Finch.

> > > Good flick, BTW.

> > >

> > > My point it, as mad as anyone is, getting the facts absolutely

> right

> > > is the most important thing. Ever.

> > >

> > > --

> > > Ralph Nader on the need for moral courage:

> > > http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=MQFG4Piwegs

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Hi -

I'm not sure that flaming is what is happening here. I did see the

comment about starting one's own group, but I didn't take it as

though this person is unwelcome here - just that this discussion is

really drowning out the rest of what happens on this group, which is

fine, I would think, provided it slows down at some reasonable point

in time. Otherwise it does seem to make sense to start a new group

and those that are not interested can continue in this group, and

those that are interested can join the other as well or instead.

I think what is being objected to are the posts that:

1) seem to consistently full of credentials - I doubt there is anyone

here naive enough to give a whit whether someone has a doctorate and a

medical degree or what. Loads of us in this group have several

graduate degrees, and we (rightly) base our analyses on the validity

of claims, not on how many letters one makes a point of *repeatedly*

trumpeting, especially when there is an absence of substantive

discussion. I've really never seen a professional who has a doctorate

and MD add their bachelor's and master's degrees in their credentials.

It looks gratuitous because for all intents everyone who has one of

the terminal degrees has the preceding ones. It looks like a sales

pitch to add lots of letters after the name - at least in my academic

world that is how it looks, or it appears that this is a person that

thinks that credentials can stand in place of arguments, and

2) when people do value substantive discussion (as I know you do), a

person makes a claim, and then if there is no ipso facto agreement,

the person is asked to defend their claim. This is not only

reasonable, it is the basis of science. Instead what we see here are

lots of references like -I am the only one who knows, I invented x...-

and -I can't tell you because it is all trade secrets-. I think it is

right to then ask why this person has come to the group if they have

no intention of defending the claims that they make, but instead want

people to become a paying client. This makes it seem as though this

is largely about the solicitation of business. If this is not what

is doing, then fine, but as it sits, I think people are

rightfully suspicious.

I don't think that insistent demands to back up claims counts as

bullying. I don't recall seeing anyone denounce this person based on

the fact that his thinking differed from Andy's - it is the lack of

substance to substantiate his claims that are the basis of the

complaints. When he fails to answer any of the queries in response to

his assertions in any meaningful way it is correct to ask why this is

happening.

I'm all for letting the man speak (and I think lots of others are

too), and evaluating what he says. So far I've seen little save a bit

of digging his own grave. I hope people don't give into their

desperate hopes to help their children by rushing right out to write

checks to this person, absent any rational reason to do so, as we

haven't seen any.

And now it looks worryingly like he has copied personal email

correspondence onto this group (which I have to say looks like he's

saying this person thinks highly of me, and you should too, instead of

actually giving us direct reasons to do so), which ought to remain out

of the public domain unless the other person has agreed to their

publication - and the post does not state this to be the case, and it

should if he has permission.

At the very best there seems to be a lot of questionable judgment on

's part.

> > > >

> > > > I agree. What I dont agree with is the shutting down ...doors

> > closed and

> > > > not letting this guy have a chance to speak without getting

> > attacked.

> > > > Some of

> > > > us " under-educated " parents would have liked to ask him

> > questions

> > > > etc. But the

> > > > atmosphere here is always so negative when some new idea is

> > brought up.

> > > > The " more educated " but might I add ..that doesnt make one

> > smarter..

> > > > get defensive

> > > > right off the bat. Would it really have hurt to listen to what

> > this

> > > > man has to say

> > > > and maybe we could get a better understanding? Does this man seem

> > > > threatening to you?

> > > > I do believe he responded to Andy's post in a " lets work

> > together

> > > > attitude "

> > > > If I were him, I would not bother to come back and post answers

> > to

> > > > questions..

> > > > this group is like a den of lions for Gosh sakes. Minds are like

> > > > parachutes.. they only

> > > > function when open.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > 38 and Mom to three

> > > > Tasha 23..new Mommy ( means I am a Grammy )

> > > > Casey-Mae 13..sweet as pie

> > > > Elijah 2.. ASD and beautiful

> > > >

> > > > Re: [ ] Moulden-Cutler Controversy

> > > >

> > > > >So everybody, I know we are all mad as hell and aren't going to

> > take

> > > > >it anymore, as Faye Dunaway said in the 70's movie Network, but

> > let's

> > > > >not beat each other up.

> > > >

> > > > Faye Dunaway actually never uttered the words. It was Finch.

> > > > Good flick, BTW.

> > > >

> > > > My point it, as mad as anyone is, getting the facts absolutely

> > right

> > > > is the most important thing. Ever.

> > > >

> > > > --

> > > > Ralph Nader on the need for moral courage:

> > > > http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=MQFG4Piwegs

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Re: [ ] Moulden-Cutler Controversy

> > >

> > > >So everybody, I know we are all mad as hell and aren't going to

> take

> > > >it anymore, as Faye Dunaway said in the 70's movie Network, but

> let's

> > > >not beat each other up.

> > >

> > > Faye Dunaway actually never uttered the words. It was Finch.

> > > Good flick, BTW.

> > >

> > > My point it, as mad as anyone is, getting the facts absolutely

> right

> > > is the most important thing. Ever.

> > >

> > > --

> > > Ralph Nader on the need for moral courage:

> > > http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=MQFG4Piwegs

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

,

What is reported by a lister on some other list is anecdotal. Even if

you do post it here, how can we validate it?

What are the other false and leading statements referred to in your

third sentence?

Best,

Ladyshrink111@... schrieb:

>

>

> Re: [ ] Moulden-Cutler Controversy

> > > >

> > > > >So everybody, I know we are all mad as hell and aren't going to

> > take

> > > > >it anymore, as Faye Dunaway said in the 70's movie Network, but

> > let's

> > > > >not beat each other up.

> > > >

> > > > Faye Dunaway actually never uttered the words. It was Finch.

> > > > Good flick, BTW.

> > > >

> > > > My point it, as mad as anyone is, getting the facts absolutely

> > right

> > > > is the most important thing. Ever.

> > > >

> > > > --

> > > > Ralph Nader on the need for moral courage:

> > > > http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=MQFG4Piwegs

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Re: [ ] Moulden-Cutler Controversy

> > > >

> > > > >So everybody, I know we are all mad as hell and aren't going to

> > take

> > > > >it anymore, as Faye Dunaway said in the 70's movie Network, but

> > let's

> > > > >not beat each other up.

> > > >

> > > > Faye Dunaway actually never uttered the words. It was Finch.

> > > > Good flick, BTW.

> > > >

> > > > My point it, as mad as anyone is, getting the facts absolutely

> > right

> > > > is the most important thing. Ever.

> > > >

> > > > --

> > > > Ralph Nader on the need for moral courage:

> > > > http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=MQFG4Piwegs

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >