Copper/Calcium/Lithium Questions - ANDY

[Guest guest]

Andy, I have posted a few different messages on the above topics and am somewhat

confused by varying answers that I have received, so I am seeking your input for

clarification.

By way of background we have been chelating per your protocol for a little over

4 months

now, first with DMSA alone and now, for a couple of rounds with DMSA and ALA for

about

5 rounds. We do the 3 days on, 4 days off schedule. We did a hair test before

starting

chelation about 6 months ago which I posted then. Our DAN! wanted to do a

follow up

hair test after some months of chelation which we did recently. We received the

results a

week or so ago, which I have yet to post.

A few things were obvious to us without even posting the results from our

reading of your

books:

Adrenal fatigue has become very pronounced, with very low potassium and sodium.

(both

are green into yellow - sodium is 13, with a reference range of 20 - 200, and

potassium is

8, with a reference range of 12 - 200) This was also evident 6 months ago, but

we did not

want to try the ACE at the time and were hopeful that chelation might address

the adrenal

issues. Rather than help, chelation has made things worse. We have been

noticing bad sea

salt cravings with our son lately and other behaviors. We started the ACE and

this seems

to have helped tremendously.

1. Is there anything else we should be doing?

Copper was high 6 months ago, not quite in the red but close. We had been

giving lots of

nuts and other high copper foods, which we thought was the cause, so we stopped

giving

these foods. However, now in the new hair test, copper is literally as high as

it can go, to

the end of the page, (copper is 79 with a reference range of 11 - 18) so we

started the

copper protocol, molybdenum, additional zinc, milk thistle and liver support in

the form

of Liver Life, multiple times a day and absolutely no copper foods. We continue

to chelate

with very low dose ALA (3 mg per dose) and DMSA (10mg per dose). Our DAN! says

we can

be getting a false reading if we have copper pipes and wash our son's hair in

the water

from the faucet. I thought this seemed too easy an answer.

2. I have been getting conflicting answers and am confused by what I read in the

archives.

Is it okay to continue to chelate with ALA when copper is this high as long as

we address it

with the proper copper protocol? Also, we give about 100 mcg of molybdenum 3

times a

day, do we need to give more?

Six months ago when I posted his hair test, various group members told me that

our son

(who is 3 by the way) was " wasting " zinc (very high zinc in the hair - we

supplement with

about 55 mg throughout the day, but often he seems to need more or we see lots

of

chewing type behaviors) Many advised supplementing with B6 to help with this

problem.

However, he could not tolerate the B6. So with this hair test with have the

same situation

and the same high level of zinc in the hair, not quite in the red, but close.

Now after some

months of chelation, he is now able to tolerate B6, so hopefully this will

address the zinc

wasting.

3. Will increasing zinc absorption help with lowering copper? I cannot seem to

get a

straight answer on this.

One of my main concerns is calcium and boron on his hair test. His calcium is

high, 528,

with a reference range of 125 - 370) and boron has fallen extremely low, lower

than his

last hair test.( .44, with a reference range of .70 - 5.0) Our son is strictly

casein free and

we were giving him 250 mg per day of Kirkman calcium powder with vitamin D.

4. Can this high calcium contribute to the high copper levels as well?

We stopped giving calcium after the new hair test came in, in large part due to

Dana's

answer to my post asking about calcium, stating that my son might in fact be

calcium

" toxic " and have free floating calcium in the body - that he might not be

absorbing or

properly utilizing the calcium we were supplementing, along with the calcium in

his

fortified rice milk (which accounts for another 500 mg or so). Also, I seem to

recall

reading in your books about calcium causing copper retention. We suspended the

calcium

supplement for one week, and our son was very calm. My husband insisted I

reintroduce

it, and he became very hyper again.

5. Is this reaction to the calcium supplement a likely indication that he is

calcium " toxic " ? It

is hard for me to grasp how this is possible when he is completely casein free.

Dana recommended using IP6 to demineralize, and rid the body of excess calcium,

and to

reintroduce calcium thereafter along with magnesium (which we were doing anyway)

and

vitamin K for better absorption. We were worried about a vitamin K deficiency

anyway, as

he bruises easily and has chronic diarrhea (There is a lot of Crohn's in the

family and other

bowel conditions as well)

6. In your opinion, is IP6 generally safe and effective to use, and does it make

sense to do

so in light of the seeming problems with his calcium supplement? If so, how

much should

one give a 30 lb child? How long do you use it? How can you tell when it has

done its job?

And if it demineralizes, can it be used while chelating with DMSA? Would we

need to give

additional minerals, or use it only off round? I was confused a bit by what I

have read

about this.

7. And when would one reintroduce calcium? My concern is he is getting no

calcium at all

without it on his very restricted diet, other than whatever form is in his rice

milk. How

much vitamin K2 should be given with the calcium when it is reintroduced?

should it be

given simultaneously with calcium and mag when reintroduced?

As to the extremely low boron, I thought that this might have to do with the

whole

calcium/vitamin D absorption issue, and would affect bone density.

8. Am I correct in this assumption? Our son gets vitamin D2 the synthetic form

in his rice

milk, not optimal I understand. Otherwise he gets CLO, with fairly high vitamin

A, but very

low vitamin D, so we started giving additional vitamin D3, as I understand there

is a

synergistic relationship between the two, with too much of one depleting the

other (you in

fact answered my post on this point) Will this help with the low boron? Or does

one need

to supplement boron directly?

Also, his latest hair tests shows lithium is very low. (.005 with a reference

range of .007 -

..020), in the yellow approaching the red. I have not been able to get a handle

based on

the posts on this, as to whether it is necessary to supplement with this, or if

this is just a

symptom of mercury toxicity. Our son is generally even tempered although lately

we are

getting more oppositional behavior, and less even tempered behavior, but we do

not know

if it is related to this, or perhaps yeast, or just being a 3 year old as well.

9. At what levels should lithium be supplemented? And if so, is it the lithium

orotate form?

How much should be given to start? Or will chelation rectify this eventually?

I would appreciate it if you would answers these questions for me, for purposes

of

clarification.

Thanks. Irene

[Guest guest]

> Adrenal fatigue has become very pronounced, with very low potassium and

sodium. (both

> are green into yellow - sodium is 13, with a reference range of 20 - 200, and

potassium is

> 8, with a reference range of 12 - 200) This was also evident 6 months ago,

but we did not

> want to try the ACE at the time and were hopeful that chelation might address

the adrenal

> issues.

There is no reason to wait on this.

>Rather than help, chelation has made things worse. We have been noticing bad

sea

> salt cravings with our son lately and other behaviors. We started the ACE and

this seems

> to have helped tremendously.

>

> 1. Is there anything else we should be doing?

Use more adrenal cortex. Let him have salt if he wants it.

> (copper is 79 with a reference range of 11 - 18) so we started the

> copper protocol, molybdenum, additional zinc, milk thistle and liver support

in the form

> of Liver Life, multiple times a day and absolutely no copper foods. We

continue to chelate

> with very low dose ALA (3 mg per dose) and DMSA (10mg per dose). O

> Is it okay to continue to chelate with ALA when copper is this high as long as

we address it

> with the proper copper protocol?

Yes.

>Also, we give about 100 mcg of molybdenum 3 times a

> day, do we need to give more?

Yes. 1,000 mcg 1-3 times a day.

> 3. Will increasing zinc absorption help with lowering copper?

No.

> One of my main concerns is calcium and boron on his hair test. His calcium is

high, 528,

> with a reference range of 125 - 370) and boron has fallen extremely low, lower

than his

> last hair test.( .44, with a reference range of .70 - 5.0) Our son is strictly

casein free and

> we were giving him 250 mg per day of Kirkman calcium powder with vitamin D.

>

> 4. Can this high calcium contribute to the high copper levels as well?

No.

> We stopped giving calcium after the new hair test came in, in large part due

to Dana's

> answer to my post

Dana is a very nice, decent and well meaning person, but I really do suggest

people ignore what she has to say.

> . We suspended the calcium

> supplement for one week, and our son was very calm. My husband insisted I

reintroduce

> it, and he became very hyper again.

Why do you need a lot of pseudoscientific babbling and rationalization here?

It's obvious the stuff isn't good for him so don't use it.

If you want to, try some other kinds of Ca supplements. If he responds poorly,

don't bother with them.

> 7. And when would one reintroduce calcium? My concern is he is getting no

calcium at all

> without it on his very restricted diet, other than whatever form is in his

rice milk.

Billions of people have grown up to be strong and healthy without drinking any

milk. In fact, they eat their rice rather than drink it. They're chinese and

japanese. Neither place has a history of calcium deficiency in children. Don't

worry about it.

Andy

www.noamalgam.com

www.noamalgam.com/hairtestbook.html

[Guest guest]

<<Dana is a very nice, decent and well meaning person, but I really do suggest

people ignore what she has to say.>>

I'm really thankful for Dana and all the support she provides so many as well as

yourself, Jan and several others that share their experiences.

I know the 8 hour protocol she used is not ideal and I know why. I'm intrigued

by how she dotoxed all 4 of her kids using it and saw great improvements without

the horror stories that sometimes get reported.? Why do you think it worked so

well for her? Perhaps using the chelator every 8 hours is safer than taking it

every other day or doing the IVs? Just curious.

Rosegvr/

[Guest guest]

>>>>>>I know the 8 hour protocol she used is not ideal and I know why. I'm

intrigued by how she dotoxed all 4 of her kids using it and saw great

improvements without the horror stories that sometimes get reported.? Why do you

think it worked so well for her? >>>>>>

Not all smokers get lung cancer....

[Guest guest]

I realize this but I think 5 for 5 successfully detoxed is kind of interesting.

Other than that, I'm not sure why Andy would suggest people don't listen to her.

95% of her posts seem to be about how to deal with yeast, viruses, supplements

and answering questions about his protocol.?

She's not only done him a world of good, (since she seldom discusses her

protocol) but she's been a life line for the overwrought Mothers living day to

day with high need autistic children. Her help helps others implement, cope and

stick with the long, sometimes painful and expensive detox process.? When I

think of people that I admire, trust and respect, Dana is at the top of that

list.

Rosegvr/

[Guest guest]

>>>>>I realize this but I think 5 for 5 successfully detoxed is kind of

interesting.>>>>>>

You have to be careful how you define " successfully detoxed " . Maybe her kids

would be even better today if she had used 3 hour dosing.

As far as i know they improved a lot. Doesn't mean all were cured.