Re: Re: TRT was feeling great now back to crap......please help.

[Guest guest]

I do an HGH shot every night I do Test C every 3 days and HCG show every 3 days.

I do a shot every day Test C and HCG 4x's a week.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: jasrich <jasrich100@...>

> Subject: Re: TRT was feeling great now back to crap......please

help.

>

> Date: Wednesday, June 2, 2010, 3:35 PM

> So how many shots is that per week,

> total (TRT and HCG)? Four?

>

>

> >

> > It's OK as long as you do this this way every

> test.  I find doing labs the morning of the next shot

> works good to show you how low your going.  I do my

> shots every 3 days and 250 IU's of HCG the day before my

> next shot.

> > Co-Moderator

> > Phil

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

I see this all the time T3 only will in time mess up your SHBG levels making

them very high. I don't understand the low Estradiol do you take anything to

keep it down if you do stop taking it.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: jasrich <jasrich100@...>

> Subject: Re: TRT was feeling great now back to crap......please

help.

>

> Date: Wednesday, June 2, 2010, 9:53 PM

> I hope that you're right Barb because

> I am not excited about starting on TRT, especially if it

> means that I'm on it for life. My total T has been high and

> out of range the last two times that I've had it checked but

> free T was low in range. SHBG was high and out of range too.

> Strangely, though, my E2 is very low at 7. Some people have

> suggested that all of the T3 that I'm on (15mcg BID,

> recently reduced from 20mcg BID) is causing the SHBG to be

> high which, presumably, is binding up all of that T.

> Hopefully Dr. J will be able to figure me out.

>

> By the way, after I switched back to synthetic T4 and

> weaned off of the HC I also weaned off of the benzos (that

> was a really fun 9 months of hell that cost me my marriage

> too). I'm still taking a very small dose of Seroquel to help

> me sleep and I'm pretty sure that I can wean off of it,

> eventually, and I want to because no one really knows what

> these psych drugs do to us other than that this one can

> affect blood sugar to the high side. I did just start back

> on saw palmetto to alleviate some BPH like symptoms that

> have recurred for the second time this year. The uro tried

> to give me large doses of NSAIDs, alpha blockers and other

> stuff but saw palmetto alleviated the SX last time so I'm

> taking it again. Apparently my E is low so I shou ld be OK

> taking it for a while? What is gyno anyway?

>

> Thanks Barb.

>

>

>

>

> > > >

> > > > It's OK as long as you do this this way

> every test.  I find doing labs the morning of the next

> shot works good to show you how low your going.  I do

> my shots every 3 days and 250 IU's of HCG the day before my

> next shot.

> > > > Co-Moderator

> > > > Phil

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Barb a lot of men that have all there hormones in balance one being Growth

Hormones can take less Testosterone and some end up not having Estradiol

problems I am hoping this will be the case for me. Here is a good read from one

of the mods. at Dr. 's forum.

=================================================

E2 Sweet Spot by Chilln at Dr. ’s forum.

continued from post #8 in this thread, ie:

http://musclechatroom.com/forum/show...14 & postcount=8

PLAN A:

The healthiest method of optimizing E2 levels is to simply minimize your T

boost, to the point which is " just above " your minimum acceptable level of

damage tolerance.

###

* If you exercise very hard, you're going to need a lot more T than if you

exercise very little.

* Reducing your T boosters will reduce both your maximum T levels, and your

minimum T levels. This works if you metabolize T relatively slowly, in which

case your minimum T levels will not be too low.

* But if you metabolize T very quickly, then you may find that this method lets

your minimum T levels drop too low.

* As you and your medical professional adviser gradually lower your maximum T

levels, your E2 levels will also reduce, and hopefully you will find a balance

between T and E2 which suits your sexual performance goals.

* If you discover that by using this method, you can occasionally experience

optimum sexual performance, then your ability to maintain that for extended

periods is dependant on how stable your E2 levels are, and the stability of your

E2 levels depends on minimizing your maximum T levels, and ensuring your minimum

T levels are still adequate (no sore joints, no sore back, no stiff neck, don't

catch flu quickly).

* Keep gradually reducing your maximum T levels, looking for your E2 sweet spot,

until eventually your minimum T levels are too low during the day / week (ie:

sore joints, or sore back, or you catch a flu quickly).

###

If you haven't experienced a sweet spot for your E2 usign this method, then you

need to consider PLAN B.

PLAN B:

Always attempt PLAN B if PLAN A fails to deliver the goods. Don't skip PLAN B.

For those who supplement using transdermal T, reduce your maximum daily T levels

by taking less-than-half-of-your-existing-daily-dosage-of-T, twice per day.

For those who supplement using injected T ester (eg: T cypionate), reduce your

maximum weekly T levels by either:

a) taking less-than-half-of-your-existing-weekly-dosage-of-T, twice-per-week,

or

taking less-than-3/7-of-your-existing-weekly-dosage-of-T, once-every-3-days.

###

* This will definitely reduce your peak T levels, while still ensuring that your

minimum T levels do not drop.

* The additional reduction in max T levels, without reducing your minimum T

levels, will further allow your E2 levels to reduce, and hopefully that's enough

to find your E2 sweet spot.

* The equivalent mechanism for those who supplement using injected T esters (eg:

testosterone cypionate) is to take

less-than-half-of-your-existing-weekly-dosage-of-T, twice per week, or

less-than-3/7-of-your-existing-weekly-dosage-of-T, every 3 days.

* As you and your medical professional adviser gradually lower your maximum T

levels, your E2 levels will also reduce, and hopefully you will find a balance

between T and E2 which suits your sexual performance goals.

* If you discover that by using this method, you can occasionally experience

optimum sexual performance, then your ability to maintain that for extended

periods is dependant on how stable your E2 levels are, and the stability of your

E2 levels depends on your maximum T levels (not your minimum T levels).

###

But you may discover that you still cannot find a sweet spot for both T and E2

using just this method. In which case consider PLAN C.

PLAN C: ( OPTIONAL)

This option is only available if you initially started out on a transdermal

formulation of T.

Switch from using a transdermal formulation of T to using an injected form of T

ester - eg: " T cyp " (testosterone cypionate).

Initially try once-per-week dosing, but switch to twice-per-week, or

once-every-3-days dosing if you need to lower E2 levels even further.

###

* Our body makes E2 out of T, using the " aromatase " enzyme, and we have high

concentrations of aromatase enzymes in our subcutaneous body fat.

* The transdermal forumations of T convert into more E2 and DHT than the

injected T esters, because the transdermal formulations place the T in close

proximity to the large concentration of aromatase enzymes in our body fat, while

the injected T esters are designed for intra-muscular injection (not

subcutanoues) and therefore the T is placed a long long way from those aromate

enzymes in our body fat.

* After switching from transdermal T to injected T esters, your E2 levels should

also reduce, and hopefully you will find a balance between T and E2 which suits

your sexual performance goals, but the stability of your E2 levels still depends

on your maximum T levels (not your minimum T levels).

* Initially try once-per-week dosing as discussed in PLAN B for T cyp users.

* If using once-per-week dosing continues to result in too high maximum levels

of T, while you are trying to ensure that your minimum T throughout the week is

still above your minimum requirements for T, then you will need to add back the

PLAN B multiple-times-per-week dosing - even for T cyp.

###

But you may discover that you still cannot find a sweet spot for both T and E2

using just this method. In which case consider PLAN D.

PLAN D:

This alternative is to adjust both your T and HCG dosages, and use arimidex /

anastrozole to optimize E2.

But you should still be implementing the multiple-times-per-day dosing

methodology from PLAN B and the final stage of PLAN C

###

* This is not a trivial concept. You will be messing with T and E2 levels for

months.

* The most important concept with arimidex / anastrozole supplementtion is very

reliable and accurate dosing. I very strongly recommend that you and your

medical professional adviser adopt a more frequent dosing of arimidex /

anastrozole than once-every-two-days, ie: by adopting daily dosing of arimidex /

anastrozole, using small-but-reliable doses of compounded arimidex /

anastrozole.

....This is detailed here:

....http://musclechatroom.com/forum/show...6 & postcount=31

* You may find that you need 0.1mg per day, or 0.15mg per day, or 0.2mg per day,

instead of 0.5mg every second day.

* After adjusting arimidex dosages and T dosages, you will definitely discover

occasional optimum T versus E2 balance, and with that you will achieve

occasional optimum sexual performance. Whether you can maintain that optimum

sexual performance for the majority of each week is dependant on how stable your

E2 levels are, and the stability of your E2 levels depends on your maximum T

levels.

###

But you may discover that you still cannot find a sweet spot for both T and E2

using just this method. In which case consider PLAN E.

PLAN E:

Boost T even less than before, and boost GH to provide the additional damage

tolerance lost from the reduction in T levels.

But continue to maintain using the multiple-times-per-day dosing methodology

used in the final stages of the previous plans.

But back off the arimidex / anastrozole completely.

###

* Both T and GH trigger many of the same repairs (not 100% overlap) so you can

safely reduce T, if you boost GH.

* By further reducing your peak T levels, you further reduce the rate of

conversion of T into E2. This assumes you reduce your supplemental T dosage when

you add in the boost to GH.

* By further reducing your peak T levels, your T and E2 levels will be more

stable, and you'll find it easier to find your sweet spot for E2.

But you may discover that you still cannot find a sweet spot for both T and E2

using just this method. In which case consider PLAN F.

PLAN F

This is simply the combination of PLAN E (GH boost, multiple times-per-day/week

dosing) plus compounded arimidex / anastrozole.

###

* This should only be necessary if:

....a) you haven't been able to afford sufficient recombinant GH to allow you to

reduce your T levels by an adequate amount.

or

.... your can only afford GHRP-6, not recombinant GH, and your body's response

to the GHRP-6 is inadequate amounts of GH.

..

________________________________________

Last edited by chilln; 16 Hours Ago at 07:12 PM.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: Barb <baba@...>

> Subject: Re: TRT was feeling great now back to crap......please

help.

>

> Date: Wednesday, June 2, 2010, 10:56 PM

> I read about too high T3 correlating

> with high testosterone AND estrogen.  Here's some fun

> reading for you

>

> http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/38/2/269

> Status of Estrogen-Androgen Balance in Hyperthyroid Men

> with Graves' Disease

>

> http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/90/12/6472

> Multicenter Study on the Prevalence of Sexual Symptoms in

> Male Hypo- and Hyperthyroid Patients

>

> Sorry to hear about your marriage.  Gynecomastia is

> the medical term for male breasts.  That's what DH has

> when his estrogen goes too high

>

> I agree with Bill, that " Not all men need to be in the

> upper 1/3 of the range, " and maybe that is part of what's

> causing everyone's estrogen to go too high.  That plus

> being hypothyroid.  Both hormones need to be adjusted,

> and it's hell trying to find that sweet spot.  If one

> can get their thyroid levels optimized, then they could

> lower their dose of testosterone, which would cause less

> estrogen to be made.  I find the testosterone

> conversion to estradiol analogous to too much T4 turning to

> rT3. 

>

> DH is now on 30 mg tc every 5 days, and I'm thinking of

> lowering it to 20 mg.  (His Free T was over range on 40

> mg) That goes against everything I've read, except from a

> few posters who also lowered and felt better, not worse,

> which is not what we'd been led to believe. 

>

> Barb

>

>

>

> > >

> > > , JMHO, but I really don't think you need

> shots.  Your total levels are good, was it your frees

> that were low?  It looked like you had more of a

> conversion problem, and hopefully Dr. can look into

> that.  We both know what a pain HC was, trying to dose

> that, and I would be extremely reluctant to put you on TRT,

> given my hunch that it's not the problem.

> > >

> > > It may even be that some of your other meds are

> interfering.  It's not well-known, but in some, saw

> palmetto increases estrogen.  I found stinging nettle

> root can cause gynecomastia, as well as xanax.  So

> please be patient and get a thorough evaluation.  You

> and DH have both been through enough.

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

I do shots every 3 days do my labs the morning of my next shot works great for

me. After all them yrs on TRT I can tell how my labs are by how I am feeling

with the levels.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: Barb <baba@...>

> Subject: Re: TRT was feeling great now back to crap......please

help.

>

> Date: Thursday, June 3, 2010, 11:52 AM

> I like the idea of taking smaller

> doses more often, and he has room to do that, since he's

> doing every 5 days now. 

>

> I wonder if doing labs at your lowest, before the next

> shot, is the best practice though.  With shots, you can

> expect T levels to plot as a sine wave, going up and down,

> and then back up again with the next shot.  If you

> measure the valley, and expect THAT to be in the top 1/3,

> then wouldn't your peak be over range?  But you

> wouldn't know how much over range, and that alone, could be

> the cause of the estrogen problem.  If you measure the

> peak, and THAT's in the top 1/3, then you have room for it

> to drop as it goes into the valley.  And of course, if

> you dose less more frequently, you can flatten the sine

> wave, which would be a good thing.

>

> JMHO,

> Barb

>

>

> >

> > Barb a lot of men that have all there hormones in

> balance one being Growth Hormones can take less Testosterone

> and some end up not having Estradiol problems I am hoping

> this will be the case for me.

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Then I would redo them labs there is a Ultra test by Quest labs that tells

men they are very low and it's the labs test they are having big problems with

this Ultra Sensitive Estradiol test that has a range of <29 if this was you

Estradiol test you did don't do this test get the Quest labs Estradiol test

#4021.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: jasrich <jasrich100@...>

> Subject: Re: TRT was feeling great now back to crap......please

help.

>

> Date: Thursday, June 3, 2010, 4:16 PM

> No, I don't take anything to lower E

> or T, just my thyroid meds.

>

>

>

>

> >

> > I see this all the time T3 only will in time mess up

> your SHBG levels making them very high.  I don't

> understand the low Estradiol do you take anything to keep it

> down if you do stop taking it.

> > Co-Moderator

> > Phil

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sorry if we talked about this I have a hard time keeping up with all the posting

I do so anyone reading this forgive me if I post to you something I all ready

did. It is strange your levels are this low 7 you can get them up taking DHEA

start with 25 mgs x's a day or get some HCG do 500 IU's 3x's a week. This

should get your levels back up.

I feel like crap when I get this low from Arimidex.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: jasrich <jasrich100@...>

> Subject: Re: TRT was feeling great now back to crap......please

help.

>

> Date: Friday, June 4, 2010, 9:38 AM

> Phil, I did that test, at your

> suggestion, and it came back 7 (LabCorp's Estradiol

> Sensitive). We've had this same conversation a few times

> .

>

>

>

>

> >

> > Then I would redo them labs there is a Ultra

> test by Quest labs that tells men they are very low and it's

> the labs test they are having big problems with this Ultra

> Sensitive Estradiol test that has a range of <29 if this

> was you Estradiol test you did don't do this test get the

> Quest labs Estradiol test #4021.

> > Co-Moderator

> > Phil

> >

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

That level if suger is fine just after eating I get like this and I feel it's

the change if the sugar level going from low to high after eating in about an

hr. it's gone. Test your levels before you eat it might by you have low sugar.

I eat between meals to keep my sugar levels up nuts or cheese even some meat.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: jasrich <jasrich100@...>

> Subject: Re: TRT was feeling great now back to crap......please

help.

>

> Date: Friday, June 4, 2010, 4:43 PM

> It's cool Phil. I know that you're

> corresponding with hundreds of us.

>

> DHEA makes me insanely irritable, almost raging at 25mgs,

> but even noticeably bad at 10mg. I'm going to see Dr.

> in two weeks so I'm not going to change anything now.

>

> My latest symptom is that I'm sweating quite a bit within

> 30 minutes of eating although it doesn't happen after every

> meal. This just started happenening lately after I used a

> liver cleansing blend of milk thistle, dandelion root,

> tumeric, and artichoke. I don't know if one has anything to

> do with the other, but the timing is right. I've been

> checking my blood sugar when I feel sweaty and it has mostly

> been at high at those times, anywhere from 125 - 146. I

> checked it just now because I was feeling a little sweaty 30

> mins or so after eating some pistachios and it was onyl 110.

> I feel like I'm not regulating blood sugar very well.

>

>

>

>

> > > >

> > > > Then I would redo them labs there is a

> Ultra

> > > test by Quest labs that tells men they are very

> low and it's

> > > the labs test they are having big problems with

> this Ultra

> > > Sensitive Estradiol test that has a range of

> <29 if this

> > > was you Estradiol test you did don't do this test

> get the

> > > Quest labs Estradiol test #4021.

> > > > Co-Moderator

> > > > Phil

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ------------------------------------

> > >

> > >