Re: High E2 and DHT

June 2, 2010

Hi Bill,

The test you had for estradiol E2 is a women's test still your very high yes you

can have sex with high E2 levels it has a diff. side for every man. Next time

go to a Quest lab have your blood taken there and do this test for Testosterone

and E2.

Estradiol sensitive Code #4021

Testosterone, Free, Bioavailable & Total LC/MS/MS Code # 14966X.

With the above T test you also get your SHBG.

Yes do take DIM every day and if your T levels are not up into the upper 1/3 of

your labs range switch to shots the gel is not getting through your skin.

Start with 100 mgs / wk. and added in 250 IU's of HCG the 2 days each before

your next T shot this will keep your levels up.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: Bill <rverbill@...>

> Subject: High E2 and DHT

>

> Date: Tuesday, June 1, 2010, 9:03 PM

> I just got some of the results of my

> tests from my annual physical. The nurse called, so I don't

> have the print-out of all the tests yet. However, my DHT and

> E2 are both high.

>

> DHT = 121 (25-75)

> E2 = 83 (<20-56)

>

> Unfortunately, the lab didn't take enough vials of blood

> and they didn't have enough to do total and free T. I told

> the tech that I didn't think they were taking enough, but

> she said it was correct. Yeah, right. So now I have to get

> stuck again and wait another 2 weeks for T results and pay

> another co-pay.

>

> Anyway, I'm a little surprised at the results vs. how I

> feel. At last years physical, DHT was 132 and E2 was 57.2.

> Total T was 862 (250-1100) and free T was high - 179

> (35-155). My depression was gone and libido was fair, but ED

> was not good. Now with even higher E2, my ED is not bad. I

> don't really need Viagra. However, I have mild depression

> and libido is again just fair. It has been this way for at

> least a couple of months.

>

> I use 2 tubes of Testim daily and take 2 Indolplex DIM tabs

> a week. Last October, mu total T was only 348, free T was

> 101 and E2 was 34.4. ED and libido were both good and I only

> had occasional mild depression. It was the best I had felt

> in almost 3 years. I have been using 2 tubes of Testim this

> entire time. I'm surprised that my ED is good now with the

> E2 so high.

>

> I'm thinking of trying to up the DIM to 1 tab a day, but

> not until I get the blood drawn for total and free T in 2

> days.

>

> Any thoughts. It seems like the numbers jump all over the

> place. I also have a lack of energy. I'm not fatigued, but

> just feel tired without much energy. I have the energy to

> exercise most of the time, but not to do much else.

>

> ------------------------------------

>

June 2, 2010

Phil, the estradiol test you are recommending is discussed in the Quest Endo

Manual on page 262, Table 1. It's clinical use is stated as in vitro

fertilization protocols and to monitor HRT (patch). This sounds like it is

intended for women only. How can you say that the test that I had run is for

women only, while this obviously for female test is the one that I need? I see

essentially no difference between these tests. Both can be used for both high

and low levels of E2. Female E2 has the same molecular structure as male E2.

There are those who say that only the US Quest test should be used, but yet you

and others state the many problems that Quest has had with that test, which I

agree with based on all that I have read about the US test.

The total and free T test that my doctor has always ordered is Quest test

36170X. The method of analyzing total T is the same as the Quest that you

recommend and has the same ranges. The method of analyzing free T is by

equilibrium dialysis, which is normally considered the gold standard. From the

studies that I have seen comparing ED vs. calculated, they correlate very well

and are both very accurate tests. While it would be nice for me to also see the

bioavailable T amount, the only test that the hospital lab uses for total and

free T is the one that I get. They send it to Quest for analysis. I do not have

a Quest lab in the area to go to and living in NY, I cannot order any test

without going through a doctor. In addition, without a doctor's order, insurance

would not pay for the test. I have no problem using the Quest total and free T

test, as the free T analysis is by the most accurate method. If he used the test

that you recommend then I would also have no problem with that.

I have considered switching to shots and might do so. However, it is obvious

that I can absorb Testim well, as one test at 862 ng/dl shows. I will get the

total and free T blood drawn tomorrow. Perhaps my E2 is so high because my total

T is too high. Not all men need to be in the upper 1/3 of the range. This is

stated by both Shippen and Crisler. Shippen talks about it in his book and

Crisler stated in his video presentation that when E2 is high, it is often

because the total T level is too high for that person. I have shown that a high

total T is not necessary for me, as the best I have felt in the past 3 years was

when my total T was only 348, but my free T was good at 101 and E2 was good at

34.4. I have discovered that my total T level seems to be dependent on when I

apply it relative to a shower. Crisler has said that a dermatologist told him

that a gel applied within 3 minutes of drying off from a shower absorbs much

better. I correlated my several lab results and it seems to be true for me. I

asked my dermatologist about this and he explained why this is so. I have been

applying it after washing with a loofah sponge in the morning for the past 6

months. However, I don't know how it is working, as I have not had a test since

then. The fact that both my DHT and E2 are very high tells me that my total T is

also very high. My DHT and E2 were at their previous highest when my total T was

862 last year in May. That was during my annual physical and I applied the

Testim right after showering and drying. Perhaps a total T in the upper half of

the range causes more problems for me than the good that it provides. Every

person is different and one size does not fit all.

I have discussed switching to shots with my doctor because of cost and insurance

and he said that it would be fine with him if I want too. I have not decided

yet.

>

> > From: Bill <rverbill@...>

> > Subject: High E2 and DHT

> >

> > Date: Tuesday, June 1, 2010, 9:03 PM

> > I just got some of the results of my

> > tests from my annual physical. The nurse called, so I don't

> > have the print-out of all the tests yet. However, my DHT and

> > E2 are both high.

> >

> > DHT = 121 (25-75)

> > E2 = 83 (<20-56)

> >

> > Unfortunately, the lab didn't take enough vials of blood

> > and they didn't have enough to do total and free T. I told

> > the tech that I didn't think they were taking enough, but

> > she said it was correct. Yeah, right. So now I have to get

> > stuck again and wait another 2 weeks for T results and pay

> > another co-pay.

> >

> > Anyway, I'm a little surprised at the results vs. how I

> > feel. At last years physical, DHT was 132 and E2 was 57.2.

> > Total T was 862 (250-1100) and free T was high - 179

> > (35-155). My depression was gone and libido was fair, but ED

> > was not good. Now with even higher E2, my ED is not bad. I

> > don't really need Viagra. However, I have mild depression

> > and libido is again just fair. It has been this way for at

> > least a couple of months.

> >

> > I use 2 tubes of Testim daily and take 2 Indolplex DIM tabs

> > a week. Last October, mu total T was only 348, free T was

> > 101 and E2 was 34.4. ED and libido were both good and I only

> > had occasional mild depression. It was the best I had felt

> > in almost 3 years. I have been using 2 tubes of Testim this

> > entire time. I'm surprised that my ED is good now with the

> > E2 so high.

> >

> > I'm thinking of trying to up the DIM to 1 tab a day, but

> > not until I get the blood drawn for total and free T in 2

> > days.

> >

> > Any thoughts. It seems like the numbers jump all over the

> > place. I also have a lack of energy. I'm not fatigued, but

> > just feel tired without much energy. I have the energy to

> > exercise most of the time, but not to do much else.

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

June 2, 2010

All E2 tests are for women I told you this because your test only goes down to

20 if your below it the results will say <20 men taking DIM or Arimidex need to

know how low they are when testing. My SHBG is low 18 my E2 is best at 10 to 15

this test #4021 will tell you all the way down were your at. Back in the day

when I found out about testing E2 levels the only test out there went down to 20

this is why I am saying if you can get the 4021 test so you can tell how low you

are if below 20 taking someting to being down your E2 levels. Labs as low as

yours on gels tells me the gel is not getting through your Skin a lot of men

have this problem after being on gels for a time it stops working. And men with

a thyroid problem have a thicker skin and gels and creams don't work.

If you put on the gel in the morning they do your labs your labs are going to

come back very high but not a true reading. You need to shower in the morning

do your labs this put on gels. If you can't do this put on the gel keep it off

the area they take the blood and do labs in 6 hrs. The gel stays just under

your skin up to 6 hrs going into your blood slow so this is the best way to get

good labs on gels.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: Bill <rverbill@...>

> Subject: Re: High E2 and DHT

>

> Date: Wednesday, June 2, 2010, 2:32 PM

> Phil, the estradiol test you are

> recommending is discussed in the Quest Endo Manual on page

> 262, Table 1. It's clinical use is stated as in vitro

> fertilization protocols and to monitor HRT (patch). This

> sounds like it is intended for women only. How can you say

> that the test that I had run is for women only, while this

> obviously for female test is the one that I need? I see

> essentially no difference between these tests. Both can be

> used for both high and low levels of E2. Female E2 has the

> same molecular structure as male E2. There are those who say

> that only the US Quest test should be used, but yet you and

> others state the many problems that Quest has had with that

> test, which I agree with based on all that I have read about

> the US test.

>

> The total and free T test that my doctor has always ordered

> is Quest test 36170X. The method of analyzing total T is the

> same as the Quest that you recommend and has the same

> ranges. The method of analyzing free T is by equilibrium

> dialysis, which is normally considered the gold standard.

> From the studies that I have seen comparing ED vs.

> calculated, they correlate very well and are both very

> accurate tests. While it would be nice for me to also see

> the bioavailable T amount, the only test that the hospital

> lab uses for total and free T is the one that I get. They

> send it to Quest for analysis. I do not have a Quest lab in

> the area to go to and living in NY, I cannot order any test

> without going through a doctor. In addition, without a

> doctor's order, insurance would not pay for the test. I have

> no problem using the Quest total and free T test, as the

> free T analysis is by the most accurate method. If he used

> the test that you recommend then I would also have no

> problem with that.

>

> I have considered switching to shots and might do so.

> However, it is obvious that I can absorb Testim well, as one

> test at 862 ng/dl shows. I will get the total and free T

> blood drawn tomorrow. Perhaps my E2 is so high because my

> total T is too high. Not all men need to be in the upper 1/3

> of the range. This is stated by both Shippen and Crisler.

> Shippen talks about it in his book and Crisler stated in his

> video presentation that when E2 is high, it is often because

> the total T level is too high for that person. I have shown

> that a high total T is not necessary for me, as the best I

> have felt in the past 3 years was when my total T was only

> 348, but my free T was good at 101 and E2 was good at 34.4.

> I have discovered that my total T level seems to be

> dependent on when I apply it relative to a shower. Crisler

> has said that a dermatologist told him that a gel applied

> within 3 minutes of drying off from a shower absorbs much

> better. I correlated my several lab results and it seems to

> be true for me. I asked my dermatologist about this and he

> explained why this is so. I have been applying it after

> washing with a loofah sponge in the morning for the past 6

> months. However, I don't know how it is working, as I have

> not had a test since then. The fact that both my DHT and E2

> are very high tells me that my total T is also very high. My

> DHT and E2 were at their previous highest when my total T

> was 862 last year in May. That was during my annual physical

> and I applied the Testim right after showering and drying.

> Perhaps a total T in the upper half of the range causes more

> problems for me than the good that it provides. Every person

> is different and one size does not fit all.

>

> I have discussed switching to shots with my doctor because

> of cost and insurance and he said that it would be fine with

> him if I want too. I have not decided yet.

>

> >

> > > From: Bill <rverbill@...>

> > > Subject: High E2 and DHT

> > >

> > > Date: Tuesday, June 1, 2010, 9:03 PM

> > > I just got some of the results of my

> > > tests from my annual physical. The nurse called,

> so I don't

> > > have the print-out of all the tests yet. However,

> my DHT and

> > > E2 are both high.

> > >

> > > DHT = 121 (25-75)

> > > E2 = 83 (<20-56)

> > >

> > > Unfortunately, the lab didn't take enough vials

> of blood

> > > and they didn't have enough to do total and free

> T. I told

> > > the tech that I didn't think they were taking

> enough, but

> > > she said it was correct. Yeah, right. So now I

> have to get

> > > stuck again and wait another 2 weeks for T

> results and pay

> > > another co-pay.

> > >

> > > Anyway, I'm a little surprised at the results vs.

> how I

> > > feel. At last years physical, DHT was 132 and E2

> was 57.2.

> > > Total T was 862 (250-1100) and free T was high -

> 179

> > > (35-155). My depression was gone and libido was

> fair, but ED

> > > was not good. Now with even higher E2, my ED is

> not bad. I

> > > don't really need Viagra. However, I have mild

> depression

> > > and libido is again just fair. It has been this

> way for at

> > > least a couple of months.

> > >

> > > I use 2 tubes of Testim daily and take 2

> Indolplex DIM tabs

> > > a week. Last October, mu total T was only 348,

> free T was

> > > 101 and E2 was 34.4. ED and libido were both good

> and I only

> > > had occasional mild depression. It was the best I

> had felt

> > > in almost 3 years. I have been using 2 tubes of

> Testim this

> > > entire time. I'm surprised that my ED is good now

> with the

> > > E2 so high.

> > >

> > > I'm thinking of trying to up the DIM to 1 tab a

> day, but

> > > not until I get the blood drawn for total and

> free T in 2

> > > days.

> > >

> > > Any thoughts. It seems like the numbers jump all

> over the

> > > place. I also have a lack of energy. I'm not

> fatigued, but

> > > just feel tired without much energy. I have the

> energy to

> > > exercise most of the time, but not to do much

> else.

> > >

> > > ------------------------------------

> > >

June 2, 2010

I would not want an E2 level below 20 pg/ml. There have been 2 studies that I

found last year that shows that low E2 (<18) in men greatly increases the risk

of hip fracture later in life. Here is one of them:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16651055

I don't know what my E2 level was when it came back <20, but I felt terrible.

Even 50 mg of Viagra did little for me, when 25 mg normally would bring me back

to where I was 10 to 20 years earlier. Even with my E2 at a very high 83, I have

much better erections with no Viagra than I did at <20 and 50 mg of Viagra. I

felt the best when my E2 was at 34, so I see no reason to pay out of pocket and

try to find a doctor to order the Quest test that is essentially the same as the

one that I get. It is good that you are doing very well at an E2 level of 10 to

15, but I would personally be concerned about what I would be doing to my bone

mineral density and future risk of fracture. The other study showed that low E2

is more important to losing bone density in both men and women than low T. I

can't locate it right now, but I will follow-up if I can find it again. I

believe it was for levels below something like 25, but I'm not sure.

As far as when I apply the Testim, I apply if before 6 am on days of the test

and then get tested shortly after 10 am. I do not apply it on the side of the

body where blood is drawn and apply it with a nitrile exam glove. The trials for

Testim, as published in the Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism

show that on day 90 that application of 10 gm of Testim that blood levels peak

at 8 hours. At the 30 day point, the levels at 4 and 8 hours are the same.

Therefore, it makes no difference if I have blood drawn at 4 hours, 6 hours or 8

hours after application. The 30 day chart is the exact same chart that is shown

in the data sheet shipped in the Testim box. I know that hypothyroidism can

cause problems with absorption. My doctor ordered blood drawn for TSH, T3 and

free T4. I should get the actual numbers and ranges tomorrow, but the nurse

called and said that they were normal. However, I don't yet know if they were in

a normal concerning range, like TSH at the top of the normal range.

I'm beginning to think that my total T levels are actually too high for my

particular physiology, but I will not know what it really is until I get the

results of tomorrow's blood draw. I was using 10 gm of Testim when it was at 862

and at 348. The difference is that I applied it right after a morning shower

when it was 862 and the morning after a shower when it was at 348. I had been

doing that for a couple of months before the 348 blood draw. The one thing that

I do know for sure is that the worst ED and libido that I have had since the

problems started 3 years ago was for the month before and after my E2 was tested

at <20 and the best was when my E2 was 34 and free T 101. I was taking one

Indolplex DIM daily for about 6 weeks before the <20 blood draw.

> > >

> > > > From: Bill <rverbill@>

> > > > Subject: High E2 and DHT

> > > >

> > > > Date: Tuesday, June 1, 2010, 9:03 PM

> > > > I just got some of the results of my

> > > > tests from my annual physical. The nurse called,

> > so I don't

> > > > have the print-out of all the tests yet. However,

> > my DHT and

> > > > E2 are both high.

> > > >

> > > > DHT = 121 (25-75)

> > > > E2 = 83 (<20-56)

> > > >

> > > > Unfortunately, the lab didn't take enough vials

> > of blood

> > > > and they didn't have enough to do total and free

> > T. I told

> > > > the tech that I didn't think they were taking

> > enough, but

> > > > she said it was correct. Yeah, right. So now I

> > have to get

> > > > stuck again and wait another 2 weeks for T

> > results and pay

> > > > another co-pay.

> > > >

> > > > Anyway, I'm a little surprised at the results vs.

> > how I

> > > > feel. At last years physical, DHT was 132 and E2

> > was 57.2.

> > > > Total T was 862 (250-1100) and free T was high -

> > 179

> > > > (35-155). My depression was gone and libido was

> > fair, but ED

> > > > was not good. Now with even higher E2, my ED is

> > not bad. I

> > > > don't really need Viagra. However, I have mild

> > depression

> > > > and libido is again just fair. It has been this

> > way for at

> > > > least a couple of months.

> > > >

> > > > I use 2 tubes of Testim daily and take 2

> > Indolplex DIM tabs

> > > > a week. Last October, mu total T was only 348,

> > free T was

> > > > 101 and E2 was 34.4. ED and libido were both good

> > and I only

> > > > had occasional mild depression. It was the best I

> > had felt

> > > > in almost 3 years. I have been using 2 tubes of

> > Testim this

> > > > entire time. I'm surprised that my ED is good now

> > with the

> > > > E2 so high.

> > > >

> > > > I'm thinking of trying to up the DIM to 1 tab a

> > day, but

> > > > not until I get the blood drawn for total and

> > free T in 2

> > > > days.

> > > >

> > > > Any thoughts. It seems like the numbers jump all

> > over the

> > > > place. I also have a lack of energy. I'm not

> > fatigued, but

> > > > just feel tired without much energy. I have the

> > energy to

> > > > exercise most of the time, but not to do much

> > else.

> > > >

> > > > ------------------------------------

> > > >

June 3, 2010

I do agree with you about this but there is a lot more to this today. That

study is dated saying (CONCLUSION: Men with low estradiol levels are at an

increased risk for future hip fracture. Men with both low estradiol and low

testosterone levels seem to be at greatest risk for hip fracture.)

And having a mean age of tested men at 71 most men in dam good heath at this

age can fall and break there hip. Plus there is a lot of factors not shown in

this Study did the men smoke and drink do drugs.

Most men with Estradiol between 10 to 30 do well with the body. Best at 20

pg/ml as for this test that only goes down to 20 Dr. can bend you ear over

for hrs. taking about this. All tests for Estradiol are not the same he says

men need the Sensitive test. He also say your labs are gaged by how low or high

your SHBG is. I have my bones tested every yr. every man on TRT should do this

I have to have it done my Dr. makes me get it.

In this link it is a article about low T from LEF. some yrs ago in this they

state from studies and say a man needs to keep his Testosterone levels up into

the upper 1/3 of there labs range for a young man. And they need to keep there

Estradiol levels between 10 to 30 pg/ml.

Men on TRT doing this I don't feel ones lab levels for Estradiol are constant

they spike way up after pouting on the gel or doing the shot. Your getting a

lab level in the 800's putting on the gel after you put it on doing 10 grams no

one I know of has levels like this at best one can get into the low 600's. Your

doing labs the next day and before putting on the gel getting into the 300's

tells me it's not working for you.

I know what your saying but to many men have posted every where on the Forums

for yrs. about putting on the gel then doing labs only to have them come back

high and having there Dr. lower there dose and they crash. This is how I know

about it it's not just what happened to me. My Dr. talked to the Drug Rep. for

Testim and was told you should not do your labs after putting on the gel for 4

to 6 hrs your not getting whats in your blood. The gel stays under the skin and

feeds the blood for this amount of time.

I don't like talking around studies they are good but not as good as what people

feel and go through in real life on the forums.

It is best to have your Testosterone levels as low as you can get them with in

reason but to lower ones levels only to keep Estradiol levels down this is nuts.

Men have low T due to high Estradiol levels and if they get the Estradiol levels

down there T levels can come back up some 200 to 300 points.

If a man feels OK with a TT level in the 300's this dose not mean he is healthy.

http://www.griffinmedical.com/male_hormone_modulation_therapy.html

http://www.griffinmedical.com/Low_Testosterone_equals_low_quality_life.htm

http://men.webmd.com/news/20070605/low-testosterone-may-up-male-mortality?ecd=wn\

l_men_072407

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/89/3/1174

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2008/nov2008_Dangers-of-Excess-Estrogen-in-the-Ag\

ing-Male_01.htm

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: Bill <rverbill@...>

> Subject: Re: High E2 and DHT

>

> Date: Wednesday, June 2, 2010, 7:46 PM

> I would not want an E2 level below 20

> pg/ml. There have been 2 studies that I found last year that

> shows that low E2 (<18) in men greatly increases the risk

> of hip fracture later in life. Here is one of them:

>

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16651055

>

> I don't know what my E2 level was when it came back <20,

> but I felt terrible. Even 50 mg of Viagra did little for me,

> when 25 mg normally would bring me back to where I was 10 to

> 20 years earlier. Even with my E2 at a very high 83, I have

> much better erections with no Viagra than I did at <20

> and 50 mg of Viagra. I felt the best when my E2 was at 34,

> so I see no reason to pay out of pocket and try to find a

> doctor to order the Quest test that is essentially the same

> as the one that I get. It is good that you are doing very

> well at an E2 level of 10 to 15, but I would personally be

> concerned about what I would be doing to my bone mineral

> density and future risk of fracture. The other study showed

> that low E2 is more important to losing bone density in both

> men and women than low T. I can't locate it right now, but I

> will follow-up if I can find it again. I believe it was for

> levels below something like 25, but I'm not sure.

>

> As far as when I apply the Testim, I apply if before 6 am

> on days of the test and then get tested shortly after 10 am.

> I do not apply it on the side of the body where blood is

> drawn and apply it with a nitrile exam glove. The trials for

> Testim, as published in the Journal of Clinical

> Endocrinology and Metabolism show that on day 90 that

> application of 10 gm of Testim that blood levels peak at 8

> hours. At the 30 day point, the levels at 4 and 8 hours are

> the same. Therefore, it makes no difference if I have blood

> drawn at 4 hours, 6 hours or 8 hours after application. The

> 30 day chart is the exact same chart that is shown in the

> data sheet shipped in the Testim box. I know that

> hypothyroidism can cause problems with absorption. My doctor

> ordered blood drawn for TSH, T3 and free T4. I should get

> the actual numbers and ranges tomorrow, but the nurse called

> and said that they were normal. However, I don't yet know if

> they were in a normal concerning range, like TSH at the top

> of the normal range.

>

> I'm beginning to think that my total T levels are actually

> too high for my particular physiology, but I will not know

> what it really is until I get the results of tomorrow's

> blood draw. I was using 10 gm of Testim when it was at 862

> and at 348. The difference is that I applied it right after

> a morning shower when it was 862 and the morning after a

> shower when it was at 348. I had been doing that for a

> couple of months before the 348 blood draw. The one thing

> that I do know for sure is that the worst ED and libido that

> I have had since the problems started 3 years ago was for

> the month before and after my E2 was tested at <20 and

> the best was when my E2 was 34 and free T 101. I was taking

> one Indolplex DIM daily for about 6 weeks before the <20

> blood draw.

>

> > > >

> > > > > From: Bill <rverbill@>

> > > > > Subject: High E2 and

> DHT

> > > > >

> > > > > Date: Tuesday, June 1, 2010, 9:03 PM

> > > > > I just got some of the results of my

> > > > > tests from my annual physical. The

> nurse called,

> > > so I don't

> > > > > have the print-out of all the tests

> yet. However,

> > > my DHT and

> > > > > E2 are both high.

> > > > >

> > > > > DHT = 121 (25-75)

> > > > > E2 = 83 (<20-56)

> > > > >

> > > > > Unfortunately, the lab didn't take

> enough vials

> > > of blood

> > > > > and they didn't have enough to do total

> and free

> > > T. I told

> > > > > the tech that I didn't think they were

> taking

> > > enough, but

> > > > > she said it was correct. Yeah, right.

> So now I

> > > have to get

> > > > > stuck again and wait another 2 weeks

> for T

> > > results and pay

> > > > > another co-pay.

> > > > >

> > > > > Anyway, I'm a little surprised at the

> results vs.

> > > how I

> > > > > feel. At last years physical, DHT was

> 132 and E2

> > > was 57.2.

> > > > > Total T was 862 (250-1100) and free T

> was high -

> > > 179

> > > > > (35-155). My depression was gone and

> libido was

> > > fair, but ED

> > > > > was not good. Now with even higher E2,

> my ED is

> > > not bad. I

> > > > > don't really need Viagra. However, I

> have mild

> > > depression

> > > > > and libido is again just fair. It has

> been this

> > > way for at

> > > > > least a couple of months.

> > > > >

> > > > > I use 2 tubes of Testim daily and take

> 2

> > > Indolplex DIM tabs

> > > > > a week. Last October, mu total T was

> only 348,

> > > free T was

> > > > > 101 and E2 was 34.4. ED and libido were

> both good

> > > and I only

> > > > > had occasional mild depression. It was

> the best I

> > > had felt

> > > > > in almost 3 years. I have been using 2

> tubes of

> > > Testim this

> > > > > entire time. I'm surprised that my ED

> is good now

> > > with the

> > > > > E2 so high.

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm thinking of trying to up the DIM to

> 1 tab a

> > > day, but

> > > > > not until I get the blood drawn for

> total and

> > > free T in 2

> > > > > days.

> > > > >

> > > > > Any thoughts. It seems like the numbers

> jump all

> > > over the

> > > > > place. I also have a lack of energy.

> I'm not

> > > fatigued, but

> > > > > just feel tired without much energy. I

> have the

> > > energy to

> > > > > exercise most of the time, but not to

> do much

> > > else.

> > > > >

> > > > > ------------------------------------

> > > > >

June 3, 2010

Hi you all,

Just thought I would let you guys know that the quest lab here in Tampa

actually, did the sensitive test on me this last time automatically even

though the request from the doctors office only asked for " Estradiol " .

Formally the lab had my records wrong and my sex marked female. Then they

were doing the regular " woman's " test. After I went in to the local Quest

office and complained they fixed the sex on my records and now they are

doing the sensitive test with out being asked. So some labs at least know

to automatically do the sensitive test with men.

If you e2 happens to be over 20 then I don't suppose it really matters which

test is done it's going to tell you. But like Phil says if perchance you do

drop below 20 your not going to know how much below unless the sensitive

test is used.

Brett

High E2 and DHT

> >

> > Date: Tuesday, June 1, 2010, 9:03 PM

> > I just got some of the results of my

> > tests from my annual physical. The nurse called, so I don't

> > have the print-out of all the tests yet. However, my DHT and

> > E2 are both high.

> >

> > DHT = 121 (25-75)

> > E2 = 83 (<20-56)

> >

> > Unfortunately, the lab didn't take enough vials of blood

> > and they didn't have enough to do total and free T. I told

> > the tech that I didn't think they were taking enough, but

> > she said it was correct. Yeah, right. So now I have to get

> > stuck again and wait another 2 weeks for T results and pay

> > another co-pay.

> >

> > Anyway, I'm a little surprised at the results vs. how I

> > feel. At last years physical, DHT was 132 and E2 was 57.2.

> > Total T was 862 (250-1100) and free T was high - 179

> > (35-155). My depression was gone and libido was fair, but ED

> > was not good. Now with even higher E2, my ED is not bad. I

> > don't really need Viagra. However, I have mild depression

> > and libido is again just fair. It has been this way for at

> > least a couple of months.

> >

> > I use 2 tubes of Testim daily and take 2 Indolplex DIM tabs

> > a week. Last October, mu total T was only 348, free T was

> > 101 and E2 was 34.4. ED and libido were both good and I only

> > had occasional mild depression. It was the best I had felt

> > in almost 3 years. I have been using 2 tubes of Testim this

> > entire time. I'm surprised that my ED is good now with the

> > E2 so high.

> >

> > I'm thinking of trying to up the DIM to 1 tab a day, but

> > not until I get the blood drawn for total and free T in 2

> > days.

> >

> > Any thoughts. It seems like the numbers jump all over the

> > place. I also have a lack of energy. I'm not fatigued, but

> > just feel tired without much energy. I have the energy to

> > exercise most of the time, but not to do much else.

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

June 14, 2010

I had my blood drawn for total and free T on 6/3. This was because of the lab

not drawing enough vials of blood at my physical. The blood was sent to Quest

Labs in Chantilly, VA and the results sent out on 6/6. I applied my 2 tubes of

Testim at 5:45 am that day and had blood drawn at 10:15 am. I scrubbed the

application areas with a loofah, vigorously dried the area with a towel and then

applied the Testim 3 minutes later. This is the method that I have been using

for the past 6 months. I used a glove on the application hand and applied to the

opposite side of the body from where the blood was being drawn.

Results:

Total T = 1235 ng/dL (250-1100)

Free T = 434 pg/mL (35-155)

So Dr. and my dermatologist are correct when they say that scrubbing the

area right before a gel application greatly increases the absorption. I can tell

that something is different, as it burns a little when I do this and not at all

when I don't. Also remember that there are 2 studies that have shown that Testim

absorbs 30% greater than Androgel. And compounded gels are probably even lower

than Androgel. So saying that a person cannot get above 600 ng/dL on a gel is

just completely wrong. I have had 3 tests in the past 16 months that have been

above 600. Two were when I applied right after showering and vigorously drying

the application area and they were 644 and 862. All of these tests were at the

same Quest lab. This last one is the only one where I applied it after scrubbing

with a loofah and it was 1235. Thee is another person on another board that is

normally around 800 on Androgel.

It is obvious to me that my E2 and DHT are too high because my T is too high.

Even Dr. says this is the case most of the time from his experience and I

would put more credibility in what he says than I would in LEF. It's time that

people realize that this one size fits all hype is just that, hype.

I dropped my dose from 2 tubes daily to 1 tube daily 10 days ago. The past 3

days my erections have been better than most anytime during the past 2 years. My

wife even commented about how I can keep an erection for several minutes without

any stimulation one it is there. Normally it would take at least 25 mg of Viagra

to do that and now I do that without any Viagra. At a level of 1235, it is no

wonder that my hematocrit, E2 and DHT were so high. I have not even begun to

crash on 1 tube per day. By the way, the Testim clinical trials showed that the

daily average on 1 tube per day after 90 days was 398 and the daily max was 562,

with some men being as high as 900 for a daily max and 363 for the daily

minimum. I doubt that many, if any, men used the procedure that I am using, or

they might have been even higher. Remember that Androgel keeps a person at a

relatively constant daily level, while Testim replicates the diurnal variations

of younger men.

> > > > >

> > > > > > From: Bill <rverbill@>

> > > > > > Subject: High E2 and

> > DHT

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Date: Tuesday, June 1, 2010, 9:03 PM

> > > > > > I just got some of the results of my

> > > > > > tests from my annual physical. The

> > nurse called,

> > > > so I don't

> > > > > > have the print-out of all the tests

> > yet. However,

> > > > my DHT and

> > > > > > E2 are both high.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > DHT = 121 (25-75)

> > > > > > E2 = 83 (<20-56)

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Unfortunately, the lab didn't take

> > enough vials

> > > > of blood

> > > > > > and they didn't have enough to do total

> > and free

> > > > T. I told

> > > > > > the tech that I didn't think they were

> > taking

> > > > enough, but

> > > > > > she said it was correct. Yeah, right.

> > So now I

> > > > have to get

> > > > > > stuck again and wait another 2 weeks

> > for T

> > > > results and pay

> > > > > > another co-pay.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Anyway, I'm a little surprised at the

> > results vs.

> > > > how I

> > > > > > feel. At last years physical, DHT was

> > 132 and E2

> > > > was 57.2.

> > > > > > Total T was 862 (250-1100) and free T

> > was high -

> > > > 179

> > > > > > (35-155). My depression was gone and

> > libido was

> > > > fair, but ED

> > > > > > was not good. Now with even higher E2,

> > my ED is

> > > > not bad. I

> > > > > > don't really need Viagra. However, I

> > have mild

> > > > depression

> > > > > > and libido is again just fair. It has

> > been this

> > > > way for at

> > > > > > least a couple of months.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I use 2 tubes of Testim daily and take

> > 2

> > > > Indolplex DIM tabs

> > > > > > a week. Last October, mu total T was

> > only 348,

> > > > free T was

> > > > > > 101 and E2 was 34.4. ED and libido were

> > both good

> > > > and I only

> > > > > > had occasional mild depression. It was

> > the best I

> > > > had felt

> > > > > > in almost 3 years. I have been using 2

> > tubes of

> > > > Testim this

> > > > > > entire time. I'm surprised that my ED

> > is good now

> > > > with the

> > > > > > E2 so high.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I'm thinking of trying to up the DIM to

> > 1 tab a

> > > > day, but

> > > > > > not until I get the blood drawn for

> > total and

> > > > free T in 2

> > > > > > days.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Any thoughts. It seems like the numbers

> > jump all

> > > > over the

> > > > > > place. I also have a lack of energy.

> > I'm not

> > > > fatigued, but

> > > > > > just feel tired without much energy. I

> > have the

> > > > energy to

> > > > > > exercise most of the time, but not to

> > do much

> > > > else.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ------------------------------------

> > > > > >

June 14, 2010

I agree that most here are taking too much T, which is causing the high E2.

That, plus being too low in thyroid, which causes many to have to take an excess

to get their levels up. It might be wiser to supplement thyroid so they could

lower their T dose.

Baseline:

Total T 252 (250-1100)

Free T 60.5 (35-155)

First labs on 37.5 mg compounded T cream (6 hours after application)

Total T 958 (250-1100)

Free T 296 (35-155) HIGH

Last labs on 40 mg tc on day 3 of 5:

Total T 971 (250-1100)

Free T 218.5 (35-155) HIGH

I dropped his dose a couple of weeks ago to 20 mg every 5 days, and he is still

getting morning wood! And has lost a couple of pounds in stomach and

chest--doesn't look so pregnant anymore!

It may also be that some men are fully functional on lower levels than other

men. Even at his lowest levels, he still had libido and could climax, but it

just wore him out. Thyroid was untreated then too; he is now on 2 grains Erfa.

HTH,

Barb

" Bill " <rverbill@...> wrote:

> It is obvious to me that my E2 and DHT are too high because my T is too high.

Even Dr. says this is the case most of the time from his experience and I

would put more credibility in what he says than I would in LEF. It's time that

people realize that this one size fits all hype is just that, hype.

>

> I dropped my dose from 2 tubes daily to 1 tube daily 10 days ago. The past 3